Cold Fusion getting hot with 10kw heater prepping for market

[DreamSmoker]

Most of the Public is not even aware..
Cold Fusion does exist and will soon be in the market place..
OMG.. If this is successful? The Face of the Planet is in for a Huge change for the Better and the Big Oil Companies will die..
I imagine the Big Energy Companies have known this and have done everything possible to keep it down and out... Like the Tires that never ware out or the carb on the Engines of Cars that gets 100+ miles to a gallon of Gas..

This could be the biggest discovery of a new source of energy in all the time of mans existence on Earth...

http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_Focardi-Rossi_10_kW_cold_fusion_prepping_for_market/

[Warren Stupidity]

1. let me be the first here to point out that this is

Total Bullshit

[RKP5637]

3. But this is real!

http://pesn.com/2011/01/13/9501742_Hopefully_last_call_for_donations/

[DreamSmoker]

6. Ignorance must be bliss

Before anyone says its Bullshit.. Do some Homework on this..
Can you name how many different ways to create this??
There is more than one way... In fact the Hosts are now Nickel instead of Rare Metals...
In fact Scientist involved have a new theory on how it works..
Now with this Scientist claims to have a small commercial device that has demonstrated it with total repeatability..

[TheWraith]

8. If ignorance is bliss, you're the happiest man alive.

"Cold fusion" is an absurdist term in itself, akin to "dehydrated water." And this in and of itself is a fairly obvious scam. They're trying to claim that they've managed to invent something which mainstream science considers impossible, and then--instead of submitting it for a Nobel Prize, or getting it tested by a third party, either of which could net them millions or billions of dollars, they're selling copies of it over the internet?

[Liberal Veteran]

11. I'm going to buy one and put it next to my perpetual motion machine.

:P

[wtmusic]

42. Use it to POWER your perpetual motion machine.

Think of the possibilities.

[MineralMan]

2. Can I get an ounce or so of those dreams you're smoking?

That would probably keep me warmer than this stuff.

A wholly-owned subsidiary of Blue Sky Technologies, LLC.

[iamtechus]

4. Please join the sucker club and donate!

From the link:

What You Can Do

1. Pass this on to your friends and favorite news sources.
2. Purchase a unit and/or encourage others who are able, to do so.
3. We at PES Network are in a pinch right now. Donations would be greatly appreciated.
4. Subscribe to our newsletter to stay abreast of the latest, greatest developments in the free energy sector.
5. Let professionals in the renewable energy sector know about the promise of this technology.
Consider investing in this group.

[TheWraith]

5. Now see, this is what drives me crazy about the internet.

Anyone can pretend like they're reporting actual facts, with absolutely no backlash when they're just shitting out lies, and credulous people believe them.

[DreamSmoker]

7. Take your own advice

Its funny here how much many think they are experts with their snide responses with no links to back their positions and opinions...
If you think this is Bullshit???
Tell us factually why.. Back it with a link to some facts...

[TheWraith]

9. I don't require a link to show that the sky is blue.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You have offered none. How about you provide a peer reviewed scholarly paper explaining how this works? Then we'll see whether you understand science better than these people do, since they can't even keep their lies consistent within the same posting: at one point claiming it gives you 8 units of energy for every one put in, then claiming it's 37 units, while talking about measuring the "dryness of steam."

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. Most people in here have no idea what these scientist have stumbled upon

I appreciate your effort but you are wasting your time. From your link:

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/

Abstract: the nuclear signatures that can be expected when contacting hydrogen with fine nickel powders are derived from thermal results recently obtained (Rossi energy amplifier). The initiation of the reactions (either by proton or neutron capture) is not discussed and considered as true. Proposals are made to check the process either by radiation emission measurements or by elemental analysis (ICP-MS)

1. Intruduction

In a recent paper <1>, results are presented on vast amounts of energy (kWh) generated by contacting Hydrogen at pressures of tens of bars and temperatures round 400°C, with nickel powder (with an unspecified additive). No harmful radiations were measured, which is attributed to the presence of a lead shield absorbing γ emission occurring during the run and to the very short period of the instable species formed during the run and decaying after shut down. The efficiency of the process is very high (Eout/Ein up to 400). These levels of energy production strongly points to a nuclear origin. The proposed process <1> would be proton capture by the nickel nuclei. The coulomb barrier problem is suggested to be solved by the strong screening of the electrons. Another solution has been proposed <2>: virtual neutrons formation, reacting with the Nickel nuclei. This solution is also proposed in <3> with a very elaborate justification. In this paper, the capture of a neutron or a proton by a nickel nucleus is accepted as real. The consequences of these captures are analyzed (using very well documented nuclear chemistry data <4>, <5>) and proposals are made for precise verification of the process invoked.

[Garbo 2004]

13. "Journal of Nuclear Phyics" is blog affiliated with the device's inventors, Rossi & Focardi

Not entirely a disinterested, unaffiliated third party source.

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/01/14/focardi-and-rossi-reality-or-scam/

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. You also have no idea what these people have happened upon. Sorry to hear.

Peer Review
All the articles published on the Journal Of Nuclear Physics are Peer Reviewed. The Peer Review of every paper is made by at least one University Physics Professor.

[Garbo 2004]

16. University professor(s) affiliated with Rossi/Foucardi since its Rossi's blog.

Which is the point and that point remains. Citing something from Rossi's blog doesn't in itself lend credibility.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

22. Take a seat in the I told you so group over there. n/t

[TheWraith]

30. Yes, we're just not believing hard enough.

I look forward to the proof of this thing's validity being delivered by the Great Pumpkin.

[global1]

12. Here Are Two Links I Wish The Naysayers Would Read Before They Pass Judgment On This Technology....

Link 1: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/17/nuclear-future-beyond-japan/


Link 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

I'm with you DreamSmoker.

I've posted on this twice this a.m. and one of my posts got exiled to the Sept 11th dungeon.

It looks to me that there have been some recent developments in the field that make this technology look promising. I wish people here would give it a chance before damning it as voodoo science.

Science and technology develops at its own pace. Yes there were skeptics when this first hit the news in the late 80's - but from my reviewing the literature out there - it seems that there are many more people coming over to the side that there is something to this. If it is not quite there yet - then just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. It needs to be studied more and researched more and developed more. That what science is all about.

It's remarkable that there are people on this board that would unrecommend this thread.

Nothing like putting your head in the sand.

That speaks volumes for open-mindedness here on DU.

[DreamSmoker]

18. You have the idea

A recent new look at this adds a new twist in Physics.. That is why its hard for most to go in this direction of research or to even believe this to be possible..
After listening myself to several actual Scientist who are experts talk about this new perception and the Mechanics of what they now understand to be going on in this process... It is plausible..
The link to the Power system developed came from one of them..
The issue changed from if it works to How to get this into the Public domain and how it will be marketed...
The Powers that be want this bad as there are Hundred of Trillions of $$$ at steak..
It is also being considered to just let it out for all to have for free.. That way no one will have it exclusively and exploit everyone else like Big Oil..

[Garbo 2004]

19. Such claims should be regarded with open mindedness combined with critical analysis.

Open mindedness without critical thought is credulous, unable to distinguish BS from the real deal. Those who simply want to believe without critical thought dismiss those who express natural skepticism as "naysayers."

Perhaps there's something to it that warrants further investigation. So it should be investigated and analyzed. Preferably by those who are not directly affiliated with the inventors and who don't have a vested interest in the outcome.

As the WaPo piece says, such claims should be regarded with healty skepticism. And "If this new technology is real, it should be easy to prove.." The transparency needed for scientific review previously was an issue, since Rossi's looking to market this device and wouldn't disclose info. Reportedly even for patenting purposes. Is that still the case?

Reportedly Rossi has claimed that they had a device running for two years powering a factory, but their unwillingness or inability to show this remarkable feat in action & in situ to others doesn't serve to tamp down skepticism. Perhaps Rossi's primarily a salesman and thus hyping/promoting a product, but that has resulted in an aura of flim flam salesmanship around something they also are promoting as a serious scientfic feat. Which it would be if it indeed works as claimed. Extraordinary claims warrant rigorous scrutiny.

The OP's previously demonstrated unsupported leaps of logic and questionable analytical methodologies (such as supporting agenda driven "scientific" claims favored by noted agenda driven propagandist, Jerome Corsi) may also play a part in some responses to this thread.

[global1]

33. Famous Naysayers........

"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home." - Kenneth Olsen, president and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.

"There is not the slightest indication that will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will." - Albert Einstein, 1932.

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." - Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." -Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895

"... after a few more flashes in the pan, we shall hear very little more of Edison or his electric lamp. Every claim he makes has been tested and proved impracticable." - New York Times, January 16, 1880

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas Watson, chairman IBM, 1943

"Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time. Nobody will use it, ever." - Thomas Edison, 1889

"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." - Decca Recording Co. turning down the Beatles, 1962

"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." - Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

[Heywood J]

39. The ever-so-scholarly Moonie Times

and an article that anyone can edit to read anything?

[AtheistCrusader]

50. If it works, it doesn't matter if we 'condemn it as voodoo science'.

If it doesn't work, it IS voodoo science.

[jpak]

15. Abiotic Oil, Cold Fusion - what's next, Perpetual Motion?

:evilgrin:

[pnwmom]

17. Even within MIT, scientists disagree about this. Here's one scientist

who thinks the jury's not out yet on the possibility of cold fusion:

http://www.livescience.com/13745-newest-cold-fusion-machine-impossible.html

"Basically, there's a new physical effect that I think was found in the lab more than 20 years ago by Fleischmann and Pons ," said Peter Hagelstein, an MIT professor of electrical engineering and computer science and one of the most mainstream proponents of cold fusion research. "It was not accepted by the scientific community. It's been laughed at and criticized. However, over the years the effect has continued to be seen."

"In a nutshell, it seems that there's a new kind of process involved in nuclei reactions," Hagelstein told Life's Little Mysteries, a sister site of LiveScience. "The essential difference is that in conventional nuclear physics, when nuclear energy is released, it comes out as nuclear radiation. In this process, when you make energy you don't get radiation at all, implying there's a new physical mechanism at work."

_______________________________

And here's the other side, another MIT professor (same link):

Atoms don't just fuse, mainstream physicists argue. "Between two atoms there's a very great electric repulsion, called a Coulomb barrier," said Kent Hansen, an MIT professor emeritus of nuclear engineering. "Overcoming that barrier requires a huge amount of energy, so in order for it to happen, you need temperatures like those in the sun, where particles are moving very fast and can overcome the Coulomb barrier to fuse."

Quantum mechanics, the probability laws of the universe, allow for the miniscule yet real possibility that two particles could hop over the Coulomb barrier and fuse even at room temperature, but according to Hansen, that’s inconceivably unlikely.

[DreamSmoker]

20. A new look

The Coulomb barrier was the biggy...
It was said by the expert i listened to that the Coulomb barrier was not over come at all.. It was said that the energy is in the repulsion itself..
It was described that the atoms were forced together so close as to literally act as if they fused as one.. Done and repeatable...
Now it being tried in cheaper Metal substrates..
So we will so if this is a Joke or the real deal very soon...

[pnwmom]

21. Interesting.

My husband is a PHD scientist who has paid some attention to cold fusion over the years. I'll ask him what he thinks about this latest stuff.

[NickB79]

23. Already discussed (and pretty well destroyed) on the Science board months ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x75405

The fact that they're claiming an exothermic fusion reaction with nickel alone would mean either a) almost everything we know about physics is wrong and things like thermonuclear bombs shouldn't even work, or b) they don't know what they're talking about.

[bhikkhu]

24. "Miracle Invention - Please Send Money!"

I don't know enough physics to say yes or no on whether this is even possible, but the main indicator for me is: if it works, its a moneymaker. They seem to be basically asking for money, in the obvious formulaic manner of hundreds of other previous bogus power messiahs.

[TheWraith]

28. If this really worked, they could just hook it up to the electrical grid, and make money there.

Putting thousands of watts into the grid continuously, per machine, becomes profitable pretty fast if these machines do what they claim.

Of course, if they DON'T do what they claim, their most profitable route is internet snake oil sales.

[Yo_Mama]

35. We will certainly know soon enough

But I am not holding my breath. I suspect that this is a trickle charged battery.

However there is some work out there claiming to combine a LENR reaction with a battery, although using different elements:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/03/miley-20100322.html

My guess is that Rossi has fooled himself, but again, we'll see.

[Yo_Mama]

25. It sounds a lot like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-metal_hydride_battery

Supposedly what they proved in this demo is that it wasn't a battery. I'll wait and let someone else buy the first one!

[Tommy_J]

26. I am saddened by the uninformed hostility

There have been positive and reproducible results for years. There have been many peer reviewed journal papers with proof of novel phenomena. It is not big oil companies suppressing progress with this technology so much as these attitudes.

Here is an example of some of the recent literature.

http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/Introduction.htm

[TheWraith]

29. All of the "proofs of novel phenomena" trace right back to the people making these claims.

And they refuse to provide any disclosure, just asking people to blindly send them money. It's the "clean energy" equivalent of televangelists.

Here's a fact of life: when you show up claiming to be able to do something which is impossible according to the laws of physics, and refusing to show how, you're not going to get taken seriously.

[Tommy_J]

32. Ouch, you just made my point.

Reviewed technical papers are the disclosures. The grant money in this field is practically zero and folks who are researching LENR are not getting rich. They are, in fact, choosing very risky career paths, mostly due to passion for doing important work.

The standard for publishing LENR work in an established physics journal is exceptionally high. No editor would publish a paper which does not disclose how the experiment or analysis can be reproduced.

[Tommy_J]

27. Link to a better bibliography

http://www.lenr-canr.org/FilesAlphabetical.htm

[global1]

31. Here's A Letter Sent To Representative Markey......

April 20, 2011

Representative Ed Markey
2108 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
202-225-2836

Dear Representative Markey,

Thank you for continuing the fight to hold oil and gas companies accountable for the environmental damage done by reckless drilling practices. Your work on the Energy and Environment Subcommittee, including the recent hearings exposing, again, the dangers of radiation contamination, ranks you as one of the most respected supporters for our natural environment, admired around the country.

Now I ask you to put your powerful voice towards a truly clean energy, low-energy nuclear reactions, also called cold fusion, a type of ultra-clean nuclear power generated by hydrogen. If you have dismissed this research in the past, please do not miss this opportunity to get ahead of this two-decades-old science, just about to emerge as a technology. Research and engineering has been limping along with virtually zero federal support, other than military, yet the successes are increasing. It may be as soon as the end of this year that we will see a working device, manufactured in Florida, to be installed in a factory – in Greece.

Already there are numerous small businesses involved in LENR-related research and development around the country, several in your own state, each employing a handful of people. These companies need funding to hire more young scientists and increase productivity. Private investment has been inhibited by the United States Patent Office’s refusal to accept patents relating to this technology, a practice that should be reversed immediately.

LENR technology will create a renaissance of new businesses, jobs for young scientists, and more importantly, a clean energy to build a future on. We should make every effort to explore all avenues of clean energy quickly as possible to mitigate the effects of declining fossil fuels and aging nuclear fission power plants.

This technology will emerge eventually, with or without federal support, but public support means public ownership. Please sir, consider hearings on the state of the science and technology with the goal of funding research and development in this truly sustainable area of green nuclear power.

Thank you, and best wishes for continued success in the area of clean energy and the environment.

Yours,

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. How can you patent something you can't explain?

How would these people try to enforce their patent when they can't explain how their devices work? How could they say "that person's device has taken my idea", when they can't document what their idea is?

If it works, then just allow everyone to copy it, and someone will be able to explain it, sooner or later. In the mean time, they will be feted as a benefactor of mankind, get Nobel prizes (there you go, a million dollars for you trouble), a university position, and a job for life. Hey, Tim Berners-Lee has done perfectly well without having to own patents for the world wide web. Or Linus Torvalds for Linux. This would be far bigger than that.

[Tommy_J]

36. Probably a method patent

Describing a way to produce a given result can be sufficient. The problem is convincing the patent office that LENR does produce a result.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. Well, if they produce results, why is that a problem?

The object in the OP, for instance, claims to produce 12 kW-worth of steam. Should be easy to do useful work with that, and remove all doubt.

Of course, the method used to claim that 12kW (measure the mass of water going in to the device, and then note that somesteam is coming out) looks highly unreliable. It doesn't mention if anyone measure the amount of steam coming out. Or if they tried using it to heat up a fixed mass of water, for instance. Allow some independent engineers and stage magicians to examine the device, and all doubt could easily be cleared up.

[Tommy_J]

38. Excellent question

The patent office has been rejecting cold fusion patent applications since about 2004 on grounds they don't work. But what do they base this on? The lack of typical fusion products like helium? Many researchers believe energy is a by product of transmutations, not fusion into helium. Or how about the lack of dangerous radiation? Why should that be one of USPTO's criteria for identifying a patentable energy source?

I suspect Rossi would be happy to demonstrate his "invention" for the patent office, but they would decline the invitation.

[NickB79]

48. "Many researchers believe energy is a by product of transmutations, not fusion into helium"

Which well-respected researchers believe in alchemy?

[Odin2005]

40. *YAWN*, another quack promoting another perpetual motion machine.

[Nederland]

41. How do you explain the dates in the article?

The article is dated January 14th, and this is the quote:

The first units are supposed to ship in three months, with mass production commencing by the end of 2011.

Three months from January 14th would be...now. So, are unit available as they claimed, or has the company run into the inevitable "production delays..."?

[wtmusic]

43. A thin film of dementium on an unobtainium substrate?

"A small community of researchers continues to investigate cold fusion claiming to replicate Fleishmann and Pons' results including nuclear reaction byproducts. These claims are largely disbelieved in the mainstream scientific community. In 1989, the majority of a review panel organized by the US Department of Energy (DOE) found that the evidence for the discovery of a new nuclear process was not persuasive. A second DOE review, convened in 2004 to look at new research, reached conclusions similar to the first."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LENR

Alchemy lives.

[Tommy_J]

44. What info are the skeptics using to draw their conclusions?

How about looking at recent papers? If that's not feasible then try this video. The speaker is P.I. at a Navy facility.

http://www.youtube.com/user/StevenKrivit#p/u/42/ZyciIs53GfA

[wtmusic]

45. Results of LENR researchers haven't been consistently duplicated

and are attributable to well-understood physical processes and experimental error.

Lots of lectures and papers, and not one convincing demonstration of the mechanism in action. That should trigger anyone's BS alarm.

[Tommy_J]

47. I wonder, did you listen to the video?

SPAWAR's co-deposition technique has "near 100% repeatability". Experimental error was a concern back when a lot of attention was being placed on neutron counts and the like that were just above background levels.

Now there are repeatable methods to show : anomalous heating, presence of unexpected elements in the products, unequivocal detection of various high energy particles, the ability of reaction products to fog camera film, evidence of microscopic "explosions" of the electrode surfaces.

In contrast, there is NO well understood physical process which can explain these observations. In this case Occam's razor indicates there must be a new phenomena.

[struggle4progress]

46. There are plenty of good reasons to be skeptical about claims like this

None of the experts on nuclear theory seem to believe it. Rossi and Focardi apparently publish their results in the online "Journal of Nuclear Physics" which they seem to have founded; nobody else seems to think their work is publishable. Typically, the folk who get "results" in this "field" are not experts on nuclear theory but chemists, or chemical engineers, or engineers, who cannot provide any coherent explanation of the phenomena they claim to observe.

If somebody ever really exhibited cold fusion, they would immediately become rich and famous. Unfortunately, this "field" has now, for over two decades, produced claim after claim that fell completely flat

So I think the natural attitude today is "ho hum! yet another cold fusion claim!"

[Garbo 2004]

49. Rossi claims degree in Chemical Engineering from diploma mill? In his own bio on his website,

in addition to his degree in Philosophy from University of Milan, Rossi cites his 1979 Chem Engineering degree from Kensington University in California, a school of dubious merit founded in 1976. Kensington U eventually was shut down by California regulators. Kensington U then "relocated" to Hawaii---meaning it had a mail drop there but no physical presence, according to Hawaiian officials. Hawaii sued Kensington U & court dissolved its corporation in 2003: http://hawaii.gov/dcca/ocp/udgi/lawsuits/kensington

Rossi's bio on his website (bad English translation): http://ingandrearossi.net/gli-inizi/

1996 LA Times article on Kensington University in CA: http://articles.latimes.com/print/1996-04-23/local/me-61657_1_kensington-university

Another mention of Kensington U, for example:

Top Officials Hold Fake Degrees
Vince Gonzales Probes Diploma Mills And Some Federal Officials Who've Benefitted From Them
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/10/eveningnews/main616664.shtml

More info on Rossi and the Rossi/Focardi Energy Catalyzer at http://esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer#Inventor_Andrea_Rossi

Note: esowatch.com calls itself "the wiki of irrational belief systems," which suggests inclusion in that wiki reflects a certain view/bias. But check the sources, where available. Which is what I did on the Kensington U thing.