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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:28 PM
Original message
Recycling carbon dioxide and a potential role for renewable energy.
Edited on Sun Apr-02-06 04:34 PM by NNadir
Readers of my posts here will note that I often am hostile to the notion that renewable energy will quickly be available on a scale sufficient to address the immediate catastrophe of global climate change. Consistently, I regard this faith in the "renewable only" approach as a form of denial and wishful thinking.

That said, any energy that is available from renewable means is welcome and, given the circumstances, actually in some ways essential.

Although I don't like dams and their impact on ecosystems, I more or less accept that all told, they are relatively clean and safe. Moreover, droughts excluded, they are more or less available on demand. They may not be truly renewable in the long term sense that reservoirs silt, but if and until we can get a handle on unrestrained human populations, it is difficult to imagine that we could dispense with the exajoule quantities of energy that hydroelectric facilities provide.

Another form of renewable energy - at least renewable for the short term - is geothermal energy. This energy of course, is not available everywhere, but where it is available it works, and is relatively benign. I note that some places and countries have huge geothermal resources that are still under utilized, Iceland comes to mind, and to the extent that they are under utilized, it is under the circumstances regrettable. Incredibly, as my friend KimIlBush, from Hawaii, over at SmirkingChimp writes, even this relatively benign form of energy is subject to NIMBY opposition that can stop it. http://www.smirkingchimp.com/viewtopic.php?topic=63627&forum=16 (KimIlBush, who regrettably has been ill, is from Hawaii.)

The wind industry is of course, thousands of years old. Historically its chief utility has been in pumping water but, as is well known recent advances in engineering have made a viable source of electricity that is increasingly attractively priced. Although it suffers from some (ultimately disgusting) NIMBY opposition, the fact is that wind energy is an excellent source of power, where it exists. It's chief drawback is its unpredictable nature.

Solar energy is expensive, and also subject to the vissitudes of weather, but to the extent that it can be afforded and used, it is to be encouraged, especially because it directly displaces peak gas demand, demand which is increasingly problematic. (Solar energy is also, of course, available to provide heat for water and living space, and even, though far more rarely, process heat.)

The biofuel industry is mature, on some level of course it is ancient, but biofuel availability is subject to the availability of water, an increasingly precious and variable commodity that is subject, especially in the age of global climate change, to extreme fluctuations and in many areas, such as the American West, outright depletion. There are other potential environmental impacts of biofuels of course, air pollution and eutrophication being two, but it is difficult to imagine that biofuels will ever be as dangerous as fossil fuels. An attractive feature of biofuels of course, whatever their limitations, is that in some cases - at least where they don't displace rain forests as in Brazil and Asia - they actually function to remove carbon dioxide from the air.

All this said, even as I reiterate my criticisms, as part of my ongoing attempt to educate myself about the topic of the global climate change/energy crisis, I will note that I have discovered a technology that potentially will have a big effect on my thinking about the utility and growth of renewable energy.

I am referring to George Olah's methanol fuel cells, which as I have recently learned, he says can be made reversible. The last word is everything. Imagine that this technology were readily available. Methanol, the one carbon alcohol, is consumed in the fuel cell where combined electrochemically with oxygen, it gives electric current, carbon dioxide and water. What is interesting is that if it is reversible, when one supplies electric current to the fuel cell, theoretically one could convert carbon dioxide back into methanol, a convenient, if toxic, liquid fuel. (The toxicity could be eliminated by converting methanol into dimethyl ether or other forms such as the formaldehyde adduct trioxane, or the mixed methanol/formaldehyde adduct dimethoxymethane - all three are directly usable in Olah's fuel cells.)

What this means, of course, is that one could directly process excess electricity - let's say wind power that is available on a day of low electricity demand - into liquid shippable fuels. Or one could make Iceland into a type of Saudi Arabia. Rather than attempting to ship hydrogen, a dangerous and uneconomic proposition, made from Icelandic geothermal (and hydroelectric) electricity, one might be able to fill tankers with dimethyl ether, or in the worst case, methanol.

Such a state of affairs would go a long way toward softening one of my big criticisms of wind power, for instance, that it's energy must be stored in order to meet on demand needs. Note that the fuel cell is not quite a battery, in as much as the fuel can be removed from the system and stored externally. It is in fact, superior to a traditional battery. One would not need billions of tons of batteries - with all the attendant environmental implications. One could simply drain fluids out of the cell and use them in a variety ways, including combustion, or as a synthetic raw material.

In the current emergency, I caution against inappropriate optimism, the tendency that is, unfortunately all too prevalent, wherein a a conception or idea is represented as a solution. In fact a solution is something that is already available on an industrial scale, and clearly the methanol fuel cell isn't. I still contend that we are out of time and must go with what solutions exist and are demonstrated. I note that the manufacture of these cells has not been done on scale, nor does anyone understand the drawbacks, lifetimes or efficiency. I note that the cells use platinum and ruthenium, two relatively rare metals, although in a supported form on large surface area organic supports. The supply of ruthenium can be made much larger by isolating it from fission products, but platinum is definitely in limited supply. Platinum is, of course, routinely recycled. There is a long, long, long way between here and there.

One example of Olah's fuel cell work is described in US patent 6,821,659.

It is exciting and interesting work, and one would hope that its potential will be fully explored.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. it is a myth that solar energy is expensive.. new developments have made
Quantum jumps in the industry.. the oil people want you to believe it is expensive..

Bu$h canceled the National Solar Project is first week in office... precisely because it could make us free of foreign oil.. to say that 3 or 4 units 10 miles square in the South West would not be utilized nearly year round is propaganda.. sorry i have lived in El Paso Tx and Arizona.

it is estimated about 70% of the daytime energy could be produced by three or four mega units using the new vacuum parabolic reflector system, the new solar electrical plastic sheets are becoming affordable.. along with the new batteries. Places where water can be pumped up to a higher reservoir can reclaim the energy to pump it up at about 90% efficiency, running it back down..

the Solar Cell developers name is Vivian Alberts from south africa, they plan on building a 100 Mega Watt plant

We have to start thinking solar/wind/conservation/recycle.. and if someone can develop a bigger Fuel cell that uses alcohol or hemp or soy oil fine.. i am not going to hold my breath.. i will be pleasantly surprised tho.


the Hydrogen Scam is an excuse to build Nuclear plants.. you cant store or pipe line it.. it Leaks out, there is no seal the can keep the smallest element contained. it leaks out of ant container.. .. and it takes a HELLATIOUS pump to liquefy it.. there is a point of diminishing returns.

i think we should work on what we know is feasible NOW.. and dream on with H2..
we have to start NOW.. we can not wait.. this war is to impede the development of alternate fuels.. to reduce the flow of money to the middle class to become free of the Petroleum Robber Barron's
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Like most people who repeat this stuff, you confuse power and energy.
The price of solar power is reported daily on solar buzz:

www.solarbuzz.com

It is 21.47 cents per kilowatt-hour, and that doesn't include the environmental cost or the cost of storage energy.

I don't know what planet you live on, but on this planet this about 10 times as expensive as the busbar cost of other forms of energy.

But how much was your solar system? What type is it?
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. Clinton had a national solar program with units 10 miles square made of
Edited on Tue Apr-04-06 10:46 AM by sam sarrha
parabolic reflectors with vacuum tube collectors heating a fluid up to 1000*F and running large generators. the pilot study was going to build a unit to supply all the energy for a large city and expand for there.. Bu$h canceled the project his 3rd day in office

it is a system of a lot of small collectors not one big one

this is new technology, probably sold off to private corporations by now
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. i stated in my post i was reffering to a large national program using new
technology
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. A myth?
Solar water heating is certainly dirt cheap: But stirling dishes work out at around 15c/kWh, and residential PV is currently 38c/kWh. That's got nothing to do with the oil industry, but lots to do with the cost of of solar installations.

By contrast, I'm paying ~9c/kWh for my hydro/fossil mix.

I would agree that hydrogen is red herring, and if we piss about much more, probably a dead herring - but mucking about with 100MW solar farms isn't the answer. We need TWs, and fast.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. 9 cents/kWh...

...That's about the current price for trough solar.



Gilbert Cohen, Vice President of Engineering & Operations for Solargenix, said the project costs somewhere in the range of $220-250 million. He said the power is slightly more expensive than wind power, but less than photovoltaic (PV) power, more commonly used in small rooftop projects on homes or businesses. Other sources close to the project put this price at somewhere between 9-13 cents per kWh. As more are built, however, and they're scaled up even bigger, Cohen says a target of seven cents per kWh will not be difficult to reach in the near future.



http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=43336

Just sayin.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well, slap my arse and call me Nigel
I had no idea this was around: If I'm reading it right, this is "normal" thermal generation, but with the heat generated by the sun:
No fuel, standard generating equipment. Bitchin'.
Thanks Skids. You've proved me to be a Muppet. :dunce: Do these have to track? (I'm guessing so).
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. 1D tracking.

Elevation only. The geometry of the trough takes care of the lateral aspect.

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Too neat for words...
Edited on Mon Apr-03-06 12:50 AM by Dead_Parrot
edit: Dumb question, really... :D
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. "350 square acres"
Holy shit, 350 square miles, they couldn't buy that much land for twice the project cost...oh wait...it's a scientific article that refers to 350 square acres. Whoops. That's more like it, assuming they mean 350 acres.

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Presumably, it's a 4-D hyperhexahedron...
...that's 220 yards long, 22 yards wide, 220 yards high, and exists for 22 yards. The yard-second conversion is a tricky one, though.
:silly:
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. i am talking about a "National" program with 10 mile square units
with oil going to $70 and 100 dollars a barrel.. these will pay for themselves quicky
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not quite *that* reversible.
There's nothing in the PEM inside that makes it specific to a particular hydrocarbon. So you might manage to sequester CO2 with it if you had it in pure form, but you wouldn't necessarily get methanol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_fuel_cell

Lately I've been wondering whether any of this stuff here might reach applicable status anytime soon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_photosynthesis

Farms of solar panels that produce sugar water, anyone?

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, I don't know who wrote the wikipedia article, but I do know that
Olah has won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry. He implies that it runs reversibly to produce methanol. A cursory glance at the Wikipedia article indicates that its about hydrogen. The Olah cell on the other hand is about hydrogenation of carbon dioxide, a different thing. It certainly seems reasonable to me. The reduction of carbon dioxide proceeds through hydrogenation of one O=C=O bond to give formic acid and a second hydrogenation gives formaldehyde. Two molecules of formaldehyde can participate in a disproportionation reaction to then give methanol and formic acid, with formic acid serving essentially a catalytic role. Note that in Olah's cell hydrogen gas is not involved. The hydrogen is made available as it is in living systems, as a hydride, or at least as a metal complex of hydrogen. Thus the gas case is irrelevant.

Hydrogenations of alcohols to give hydrocarbons generally require more stringent conditions than one might find in a fuel cell. Therefore this is not a scheme to make hydrocarbons, but a scheme to make alcohols and aldehydes.

But I'm not familiar with the experimental details of Olah's fuel cells in any way. I note that they would not be part of a putative hydrogen economy at all since they don't produce or consume isolated hydrogen.

These are fuel cells that use carbon based fuels, specifically small one carbon oxygenates or derivatives of one carbon oxygenates.

This work would not be so interesting if it were just another hydrogen system.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. fuel cells for cars will never be practical
fuel cells for laptop computers, who cares?
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What would you suggest for transport instead?
:shrug:
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. By mode
People
Local / Intracity (<5km): no fare electrified minitrams

Intracity (>5km): farebox electrified PRT @ 1.9 pax-km / MJ
Intercity / Short (<500km) high speed electrified trains
Intercity / Long: (>500km) algaediesel fueled gyrocopters @ 12.2 pax-km / kg(bd)
International (>2000km): algaediesel fueled fixed wing jetliners @ 32.8 pax-km / kg(bd)

Note that the US uses about 1.5 MBBl/d of Jet Fuel. This is equivalent to 460 MBBl/y of Biodiesel. At the low estimates of 10,000 gal/acre/yr from algae production, this would require 2 million acres of algae ponds. This is about how many acres of crops there are in Alabama. Alternatively, it is less than 1% of US cropland.

Cargo
Local: Low speed electric materials handling systems
Intracity: Medium speed electric AGVs:
Intercity: Electrified Railways
International: Sailing Ships?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. We definitely need electrified hi-speed rail
For cargo ships I would use nuclear engines like warships use
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. That's a remarkably good idea, actually...
I'm surprised NNadir didn't think of it. :D
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. The USN doesn't use nukes for anything but CVNs and SSNs anymore
They made a few nuclear Cruisers, they've been decommissioned. Apparently, if you don't gain unlimited underwater endurance (as teh SSN's and SSBN's do) or don't otherwise have the room for fuel (as the CVN's do) it's not cost effective to operate a reactor on a ship. Furthermore, in view of proliferation concerns, I must point out that the Naval reactors, in order to be small enough to fit on the ship, use highly refined fuel - weapons grade if I remember correctly. Perhaps newer designs would work better, I don't know.

OTOH, a post MALACCAMAX (too big for Panama, too big for Suez, to big even for the Straits of Malacca) ULCC carrying 18,000 TEU and displacing 200,000 DWT, would require 100 MW. Assuming a 90% annual duty cycle, a diesel would have to have an annual output of 790,000,000 kWh. At a Specific Fuel Oil Consumption of 171 g/kWh this would require 135,000,000 kg of Fuel Oil per year. I don't know how shippers buy their fuel, I'm sure it's quite well hedged. At 185 cents a gallon, this would be $70M a year in fuel costs alone (8.8c / kWh fuel costs alone). Oh, and 800,000 tons of CO2.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. The huge cargo more than offests it, though
I don't have any figures for 200k dwt, but a 100k will top 1,000 ton-miles per gallon (fully loaded, at least): the equivalent of wrangling ~800 mpg from a Prius.

I guess we can leave the ships alone and find a higher priority... :D
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. The commercial nuclear ships that operated did not used HEU.
Edited on Tue Apr-04-06 06:00 PM by NNadir
Generally HEU is used for craft designed to operate for extremely long periods. French nuclear submarines are designed to never be refueled, and do indeed use HEU. They will run for about 30 years.

Many shipboard reactors use intermediate or low enrichment, however. In any case, people over-estimate the ease with which spent fuel can be misappropriated. How would you steal spent fuel, if you wanted to do so?

Most of the commercial nuclear powered ships today are icebreakers. Several are under construction today, including in at least one in Finland that will have a Russian reactor.

The US Savannah operated for 10 years, but it suffered from being both a cargo and passenger ship, it's design being more political than practical.

Here is a nice account of that ship: http://www.atomicinsights.com/jul95/failure.html

I am basically a pacifist and am not thrilled by warships of any kind. I do note that I recently saw a note on a website stating that an aircraft carrier is an example of a floating city of 5,000 people living within 1000 meters of a nuclear reactor for long periods in relative safety. That is an interesting point. If one looks at it in that way, I guess that it is true. Personally I'd rather have nuclear powered ships transport bananas than warplanes, but that's just my opinion.

Several nuclear powered ships have sunk, including the Thresher, in 1963 and the Scorpion in 1968. The Russian nuclear submarine Kursk sank in 2000, but later was raised. There is a very nice movie about a Russian nuclear accident at sea, K-12, which also is based on a seaborne nuclear accident that happened in real life. It stars Harrison Ford and I've seen it. It was a pretty good movie. I'm told that it is the Hollywood version, but the accident was real enough.

(These accidents destroyed all life in the Atlantic ocean, which is now a nuclear desert.)

These accidents are shrouded in mystery because of the classified nature of their operations. I have read accounts that the Thresher sank because of an automatic shutdown of its nuclear reactor when a steam pipe burst. The loss of power may have caused the ship to be unable to power its own surfacing and it drifted to the bottom until crushed. This is very possible. In 1963, nuclear reactors, even on ships, were a relatively untested technology. Reactor failures were fairly common in those days. They are very rare now, as humanity has tens of thousands more reactor-years of experience.

When the world no longer has diesel fuel it will either return to coal powered vessels or nuclear vessels. I note that modern diesel fueled cargo ships are a major source of pollution internationally. A third possibility, I guess, is a return to wind powered cargo ships, but that somehow seems less likely. If one would like to read a nice account of what it was like to be on a wind powered commercial ship, I recommend David McCulloch's John Adams which has an account of the Founding Father's trip to France on the Boston during the American Revolution. It's a gripping sea yarn. One could also, I guess, read Moby Dick. Moby Dick is actually a book about seeking oil, specifically whale oil. Petroleum wells were first drilled to provide a replacement for whale oil. That high tech replacement was called kerosene.

Many modern sailboats, wind powered renewable energy boats, exist today. They are quite nice , and have windmills and solar cells to run their radios, navigation equipment and fish finders. Most of these boats are luxury boats however. Many of them have inboard diesels for when the owners get bored with sailing.



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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Blind Man's Bluff
a good account of the submarine cold war.

Apparently, several nations are turning to Fuel Cells for their subs: the germans make the U212/U214 series, and the australians use the collins. They're both good boats, possibly quieter than nukes, certainly quieter than boats with reactors that require cooling pumps, I'm not so sure about those that can cool using natural convection. They can remain submerged for 3-4 weeks. They have very small crews (27 officers and men for the U212). I believe you could operate 4-5 times as many AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) boats for the same annual cost as a single SSN. They cannot achieve nor maintain the speeds that the nuclear boats do, though, apparently, the nuclear boats are blind and fairly loud at high submerged speeds. Operation of the reactor occupies so much of the culture of the nuclear submarine that it has been rumored that American submariners are too busy operating the reactor to fight the sub. IOW nuclear physics has displaced strategy and tactics, to some extent, in the SSN skippers mind.

Submarines are quite possibly the best defensive weapon for the buck, right behind ManPADs (Man Portable Air Defense Systems - Stinger Missles).
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Well, I have to be honest here.
I am not interested in the submarine so much as the reactor.

To the extent that nuclear physics displaces strategy and tactics, I think it a good thing. I do note that many of the technicians at power plants were trained in the US Navy. Silver lining I guess.

This reminds me of something. Once, many years ago, my wife and I were invited to a dinner party populated by a whole bunch of Rockwell engineers. It was during the Reagan administration. Conversationally they were flinging all kinds of scenarios around playfully where large sections of Germany and Poland were vaporized by tactical nuclear weapons.

It was one of the weirdest conversations I ever heard. I couldn't imagine what these people were thinking.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. It's the sort of mind...
Edited on Tue Apr-04-06 09:58 PM by Dead_Parrot
...That can invent the word "megadeath" and still sleep at night. Don't go there.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Cells fueled with liquid fuels are quite possible for large applications
if this work is verified.

There is still the matter of obtaining the energy, which is harder, but excellent storage systems make it easier.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. not for cars, so who cares? ... n/t
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. We'll chalk that remark up to a lack of comprehension, I guess.
A liquid based fuel cell could run anything that runs.

We may or may not choose to run cars with it, but it's hardly the point.

I'll just guess that you have no clue about the subject.





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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. show me the fuel cell
they essentially don't exist for cars

Honda built -->TWENTY<-- Honda FCX fuel cells cars, thats it

fuel cells only use hydrogen, reformers are not new

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. You don't get it at all. This is NOT a reformer.
I don't need to show you anything by the way. I am just reporting on the work of a Nobel laureate in chemistry.

I don't care if you believe it or not. Somehow I think it's over your head.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-04-06 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. OK, so its an anti-reformer
how many places have surplus electricity?

most of these ideas depend on,
already paid for - overnight surplus capacity

in other words, capital is free

there is a limit to that
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