Cheap solar power poised to undercut oil and gas by half

[trof]

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 11:31pm GMT 18/02/2007

Within five years, solar power will be cheap enough to compete with carbon-generated electricity, even in Britain, Scandinavia or upper Siberia. In a decade, the cost may have fallen so dramatically that solar cells could undercut oil, gas, coal and nuclear power by up to half. Technology is leaping ahead of a stale political debate about fossil fuels.

Anil Sethi, the chief executive of the Swiss start-up company Flisom, says he looks forward to the day - not so far off - when entire cities in America and Europe generate their heating, lighting and air-conditioning needs from solar films on buildings with enough left over to feed a surplus back into the grid.

The secret? Mr Sethi lovingly cradles a piece of dark polymer foil, as thin a sheet of paper. It is 200 times lighter than the normal glass-based solar materials, which require expensive substrates and roof support. Indeed, it is so light it can be stuck to the sides of buildings. Rather than being manufactured laboriously piece by piece, it can be mass-produced in cheap rolls like packaging - in any colour.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/02/19/ccview19.xml

OK, NOW we're talkin'!
Can't wait.

[rolandking]

1. Gas

People still LOVE to drive their gas powered autos!!!

[unpossibles]

6. that is kind of silly - yes it's true at the moment but mainly because of economics

supply/demand, that kind of thing.

As the technology improves and the demand increases, the cost will go down. Unless you just want to be short sighted and argumentative - that never goes out of style I guess.

[madokie]

13. I'll drive my gas powered truck until I have an alternative and not a moment longer

lots of wisdom in what you're saying and I agree 100 percent

[Ghost Dog]

32. Some Flisom Details:

{This is 'Venture Capital' start-up stuff. But already 'prizewinning' it seems. There appears to be international (at least European, Japanese, ...) competition in this field.

ed. eg. this Italian nautical battery-charger source: http://www.fvgenergy.com/photovoltaic_eng/powerfilm_eng.html


... ah, and from California: http://www.nanosolar.com/rolltoroll.htm

Does anyone have and can post more specifics?}

http://www.flisom.ch/

FLISOM produces flexible thin-film solar cells with low-cost roll-to-roll manufacturing technology. Our solar cells are based on the compound CIGS, which absorbs light extremely efficiently. Tiny amounts of material and energy are required for their manufacture, and light-to-electricity conversion efficiencies are high. This offers significant advantages over prior-art technologies – from application, business, as well as from environment points of view. Our solar cells are prepared on a polymer (plastic) foil. They are thinner than a sheet of paper and extremely lightweight. Our absorbers are intrinsically stable and hardly degrade during use – on Earth and in space.



Our solar modules are particularly interesting for application wherever portable electricity is required. This includes all battery-powered devices such as mobile phones, iPods, laptops, etc. Since our solar cells are light and flexible they can be applied on bent surfaces at virtually no additional weight. Alternatively, they can be rolled up for space-saving transport and spread out when needed: An interesting solution e.g. for mountaineers who need to recharge a GPS device or a digital camera in the mountains.

Our flexible solar cells will also be enormously attractive for application on façades or rooftops of buildings due to their low cost, low weight, and high flexibility, and due their homogeneous, dark appearance.

...

The FLISOM technology is based on the concepts that led to the world record for light-to-power conversion efficiency of solar cells on plastic, developed at ETH Zurich. The cost of electricity produced with such solar cells will be significantly lower than with the solar cell technologies common today. Roll-to-roll manufacturing technology allows continuous deposition of thin films onto flexible plastic substrates at high speeds. Coating in vacuum enables fabrication of very pure materials that reach highest efficiencies.

...

The FLISOM team has worked on the R&D of flexible thin-film solar cells for many years in the Thin-Film Physics Group of the Laboratory of Solid State Physics of ETH Zurich. The team holds the world record of light-to-power conversion efficiency of any solar cell prepared on plastic: With CIGS solar cells, efficiencies exceeding 14 % have been achieved on flexible, commercially available polymer foils.* In addition, flexible solar cells based on CdTe absorbers have been developed – also with world-record efficiency (11.4 %). It is notable that competitors still have not matched our previous CIGS world record from 1999, where 12.8 % efficiency was achieved using non-commercial polymer foils.

* References:
D. Brémaud, D. Rudmann, G. Bilger, H. Zogg and A. N. Tiwari; Towards the development of flexible CIGS solar cells on polymer films with efficiency exceeding 15%; Conference Record of the Thirty-First IEEE Photovoltaic Specialists Conference Orlando, 3-7 Jan 2005, 223-226 (2005).
D. Rudmann, D. Brémaud, H. Zogg and A. N. Tiwari; Na incorporation into Cu(In,Ga)Se2 for high-efficiency flexible solar cells on polymer foils; Journal of Applied Physics 97, 084903 (2005).

[Ghost Dog]

33. More on the Nanotech operation here:

(.pdf from their site: http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/ThePlty20.pdf )

Solar power has been around since the ’70s, but until recently, people were about as likely to use it as they were to live in geodesic domes and grow all their own food. The reason? No company has been able to make solar power as affordable as electricity produced by coal and natural gas.

That’s where Nanosolar comes in: Its thin film technology involves “printing” a microscopic layer of solar cells onto metal sheets as thin as aluminum foil. The resulting panels are lighter, cheaper, and as efficient as traditional solar panels, but they require no silicon, short supplies of which have caused many solar companies to stumble. Others are pursuing thin film, too, but Nanosolar is poised to produce enough to generate 430 megawatts of electricity a year—four times the amount produced by all solar plants in the U.S. combined.

Perhaps more importantly, Nanosolar is the first company to figure out how to produce these cells cheaply. How cheaply? Less than $1 per watt, or one-tenth of the cost of traditional cells. In other words, solar power will finally be able to compete with gas and fossil fuels.

This year, the company will begin building the world’s largest solar-cell factory, which will triple U.S. capacity and make us second only to Japan in output.

Investments from Silicon Valley heavyweights like Larry Page and Sergey Brin, the founders of Google, are bolstering the company, and a new deal with Conergy, the nation’s largest solar electric systems integrator, gives Nanosolar a huge jump on its competitors.

[snappyturtle]

43. Boy would I like to know how long they think Flisom will last

before having to be replaced? Unless the technology has completly changed, plasticizers give the plastic its flexibility.....but like the vinyl in a vehicular dashboard, in time, they crack from the plasticizer leaching out from the heat of the sun. Of course, planned demise of product makes the world go round. Think it's an extraordinary idea though! (Maybe the "foil" part solves the problem.)

[skids]

45. Yeah a lot of the other CIGS folks use a steel substrate.

...though there are plenty of companies using plastic. Up here we have Konarka.


BTW, in case folks want to keep track of the price of Si-based solar, this is a good link. Thankfully it appears the "silicon supply crunch" is over and the only thing keeping the price steady is U.S. dollar inflation. Should be all downhill from here, knock on wood. I guess how much the price of these is impacted depends wholly on how fast the CIGS/thin film folks spin up volume production, but it should be an interesting chart to watch.

http://www.solarbuzz.com/Moduleprices.htm

[kestrel91316]

48. Well, maybe they can come up with a feasible, cheap, plant-based

"plastic".

If we could bankrupt the petrochemical companies, there are a lot of clever chemists who would be looking for work if we could get them to come over from the Dark Side.

Edited for major brain fart

[Thevenin]

77. Plastics

were "plant based" before WW2. Professor Ferdinand Rodriguez, Principles of Polymer Systems really has a good discussion of plant based plastics (and coal based plastics).

[redqueen]

91. Yep...

and I bet there are fast-growing (renewable) plants that would be perfect candidates for this type of use.

[Thevenin]

76. Al foil substrate

The original "thin film" solar cells (Ovonics-Energy Conversion Devices) were deposited on aluminum foil. The thin Al2O3 layer prevented direct shorts.

[kestrel91316]

47. You're SO right! There's no point in even trying to mitigate our impact

on the earth. We're screwn. No reason to even try.

I'm gonna go kill myself.

[XemaSab]

68. Well don't kill yourself

by running the car, sticking your head in the gas oven, hanging yourself with conventionally grown cotton rope, or using pills or poisons that will get into the water and hurt the frogs. :crazy:

[kestrel91316]

73. ROFLMAO!!! Ok.

[diane in sf]

53. I'm driving a gas powered Rav 4

because I was able to buy it used for around $8k. So even with not fabulous mileage I can deal with its cost (I don't commute). I would really love to have the same car as an EV or hybrid. Recently a Rav4 EV sold for $67k on Craig's list. I can't afford that.
I want a plug-in hybrid hat runs solely on electric for low-speed, around town driving, but it has to be affordable.

[mdelaguna2000]

62. couldn't agree more

Affordable EV's NOW!!!!

[XemaSab]

67. If I had an electric car

I'd drive it for day-to-day use, and rent a gas car for longer trips. :P

[Thevenin]

75. Solar powered cars? Sort of

Yes! Who says that the solar cell has to directly power the car. For an electric car it makes sense to have a photovoltaic cell and battery on your porch -- charge that porch battery during the day, and use that porch battery to charge your electric car battery at night.

Now - because of thermodynamics (resistance heating, charging voltage > discharge voltage, etc.) you will need 1.2-1.5 KWHR from the solar cell for each 1.0 KWHR you want to deliver to the battery.

I have a couple of roll up "aluminum foil substrate" solar cells which I use as battery chargers (for radio and flashlight batteries).

[cigsandcoffee]

2. Wonderful. Bring it on! n/t

[razorman]

3. This is great, if true.

If solar power becomes economically feasible, we can tell those jokers in the Middle East to kiss our ass, drink their oil, and start wandering their deserts again. They have nothing else the world needs.

[roody]

28. It's feasible now. My computer is running off of it.

And everything else electrical in my house.

[trof]

65. More info, PLEASE?

Cost of materials and installation?
Are you selling power back to elec. co.?
Thanks.

[kestrel91316]

49. That won't make Bushie very happy, I fear.

[youngdem]

4. I sure hope this isn't more 'cold fusion' pie in the sky bullshit

This planet sure could use a genuine breakthrough in energy production.

[diane in sf]

54. Solar film is for real right now.

You can roll it out between seams on a standing seam metal roof. Renters are going to be able to stick it on their windows soon in a form that can be seen through.

[LiberalEsto]

5. Hey W, time to nuke Switzerland!

Halliburton and ExxonMobil need you to defend their profits!

[LaurenG]

7. Yikes!

Don't give him any ideas.:scared:

[goforit]

8. Hip hip hooorah!!!!!

[Boxerfan]

9. Many many practical applications for this & yes even cars can utilize this...

I keep getting freaking amazed at the "can't do" attitude as of late. America was founded by creative SOB's & there are still plenty of us around.

Cars use very little energy at cruise speed & on a sunny day I could see a car "painted" with this material providing ample power for cruise,A/C etc... I have been in the auto bussines forever & the current state of affairs is beyond laughable. Freakin the rest of the world is starting to use highly efficient diesels & GM's Opel division makes & sells them. Don't tell me a Bio diesel hybird with fuel cell/solar skin technology wouldn't work. Hell-I just invented it in 10 seconds!

[madokie]

14. sounds good to me, I'll take it

[FredStembottom]

23. Thank you, Boxerfan!

I, too get soooooooo irritated with that "can't-do" attitude! Energy debates always seem to take place in the gloomy, gloomy land of As-It-Always-Has-Been-and-Ever-Will-Be. And result in depressing "A or B" energy choices based on that backwards view.

These discussions don't even look 10 minutes ahead to what's coming down the pike in the form of new and improving technologies.

"A or B" may soon be irrelevant choices once we all get in the habit of noticing that folks are coming up with D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K and L technologies. Right under our noses! Just like in Thomas Edison's day!

[suziedemocrat]

34. Solar panels built into car bodies. Wouldn't that be wonderful! Trbrid cars!

Gas + Hybrid + Solar - that's what I want!

[kestrel91316]

50. Hey, back off! I am the one who invented the biodiesel hybrid

with solar assist 3 or 4 years ago!!!

[diane in sf]

55. I want one now!

[Not Sure]

57. GM had diesel hybrid technology in production in the 30s

Only they were called diesel electric locomotives. Why GM or GE (the two largest manufacturers of railroad locomotives in North America) hasn't been in the lead of adapting this technology to cars is what's laughable. They've had it all along.

Adapting solar skin to a car, though, that is genius - I gotta give you credit for that!

[Ready4Change]

83. Yes, but it would be a different rate of travelling.

Not that I'm against it, mind you. Particularly if there's no other fuel around. But the amount of energy a cars surface around could collect wouldn't support very high speeds. More like a horse carriage without a horse. It would require a repacing of our current "I can't drive 55" society.

Even though I am a HUGE car fan, I can't say that slowing down is a totally awful idea, especially if the alternative is a full stop. But I think I'd prefer a fold out array. Get someplace quicker. Fold out the array to charge up, and spend the meantime connecting with people. It think that's the way I'd like to go.

[goforit]

10. And it comes in different colors.......Solar can be fashionable!!!

Gore's side show will change the world!!!!

[Javaman]

11. What is the polymer foil made from? nt

[razorman]

16. Probably ground-up hybrid cars

that they couldn't sell.

[Javaman]

17. Are you being snarky or enjoy being a troll? nt

[razorman]

22. I was merely making a joke about how our society

has not yet accepted the newer, more energy-efficient technologies, and probably won't, until it becomes much more economical. BTW, I keep seeing the terms, "snark" and "troll" in these forums, but am not sure exactly what they mean. Can anyone explain?

[Javaman]

24. Snarky is being a wise ass, troll is a freep. nt

[kestrel91316]

51. "Haven't accepted hybrids?" Hm. That's funny. I live 3 miles from work,

and EVERY SINGLE DAY, between driving to and from work, and occasional mid-day errands, I see 6-12 Priuses (and often more), and heaven knows how many other non-distinct-looking hybrids. Oh, and BTW, I used to see several Hummers, but now there's only ONE lonely Hummer left in my neighborhood.

Right. Hybrids aren't accepted.

[diane in sf]

56. Prius is breaking sales records!

[kestrel91316]

74. I know several people personally who have them, and they all LOVE them

and want all their friends to get them too.

It's almost like some hip cult, lol!

[Nihil]

92. Yeah, they're great!

Have had a second hand (5000 mile) Prius for five months now and it is brilliant!
It works great at my wife's school run/commute stuff and also at my weekend
band gigs so not only have we gone from two cars to one but the one has saved
a shitload of money in itself.

My wife has had a bunch of enquiries at the school car park; I have had a few at
different gigs; we have also had a few enquiries out of the blue in random car-parks
in the town or wherever ... people *want* to know about this stuff!

If you get the chance, get one! (OK, I'm biased!)

:hi:

[Ready4Change]

84. I see Priuses all around me.

Plenty of hybrid Honda's on the road too, although they are more conventional looking and thus harder to spot.

I know a few people who haven't gotten one yet because they are still on waiting lists.

Perhaps there are some hard core types who refuse to consider them. But I think mainstream America is more than giving them a second thought.

[ClassWarrior]

18. Couldn't sell??! Bwahahahaha...

Watch the movie: http://whokilledtheelectriccarmovie.com

NGU.

[midnight armadillo]

21. Prius now needs incentives to sell

really.

[ClassWarrior]

30. Show me a link. Last time I visited the car dealership...

...they just couldn't keep them on the floor, and had a waiting list a mile long.

NGU.

[midnight armadillo]

36. ask and ye shall receive

:D

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/Cash_Back_on_the_Prius.S196.A11879.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/05/toyota-puts-first-incentives-on-the-prius/

[ClassWarrior]

38. Just cuz they're using incentives, doesn't mean they NEED them.

To wit...

Toyota's hybrids outsell the entire Mercedes-Benz line in the U.S., he noted during the speech.

And...

The Prius, however, has sold primarily by world of mouth, Farley said.

They're just trying to accelerate sales to gain a broader acceptance. Common marketing strategy with new technology.

NGU.

[Ready4Change]

85. Deathknell for US automakers.

A quote from your first article:

"We want to maker sure the hybrid powertrain becomes part of the mainstream and allocated a level of production that requires us to start marketing the car like any other car..."

Personally, I read that as saying that not only are they selling a car that is right for the times, a car that is popular with the public, but by selling it at an aggressive price point, they plan to use it as the leading point of a wedge with which they will TAKE OVER the US car market.

[jpak]

20. Gee in California (and everywhere else that I'm aware of) there are waiting lists for hybrids

and many are being sold with premiums tacked on to the MSRP.

Where are they NOT selling like hotcakes????

[suziedemocrat]

35. There was still a waiting list for the Prius in Indiana last fall.

And I checked with about 5 dealerships.

[madokie]

12. You bet'chi, now we are talking

I can't wait until we have a President who is smart enough to know we have to do things differently starting now not later when the oil runs out or all the coal is gone, now.

I like this statement. "We don't need subsidies, we just need governments to get out of the way and do no harm. They've spent $170bn subsidising nuclear power over the last thirty years," he said.

I'll never be convinced that nuclear is the way to go, I know coal or oil isn't the answer nor is ethonol. I think I know this anyway

Recommended

[Solo_in_MD]

15. This is pie in the sky talk from a start up

I've working with alternative power including solar since the late 90s. Its good stuff in certain locales but like wind power, and other renewable sources, it can only offset not fully replace nuclear, oil, gas, or coal, particularly in the snow belt. The energy denisity is just not there. Thin film solar cells is not a major breakthrough, but a evolutionary step forward. Again, good stuff, with some serious limitations, mostly yield. That should improve with time. Its not the great leap forward some would have you believe. Not trying to rain on the parade, but any serious study says that the future is blended sources, depending on location.

[jpak]

19. Sorry - thin film production and CGIS are the Next Big Thing in PV

Lots of manufacturers that produce Si PV cells and modules are going to thin-film production (e.g., Ovionics).

The Big Boys (BP Solar and several Japanese companies) are diving headfirst without hesitation into CGIS and CIS PV production.

They are also claiming dramatic reductions in the cost of PV in the near future.

Pie-in-the-Sky it ain't....

[unpossibles]

26. Man will never fly!

and harness the power of lightning?!? Surely you jest!

And those horseless carriages will never replace the buggy; they're too expensive and difficult to operate!

[Ready4Change]

86. People will suffocate at 40mph, you know.

Human lungs aren't strong enough to take in air at that insane speed.

While it's true thin films don't collect energy as well as other solar technologies. But then, they promise to cost a mere fraction of more vigorous tech. Where they lack in quality they may overwhelm in quantity.

If regular people can afford to cover their roofs with PVs, if they can make back the investment in them before they sell their homes, this can take off.

[Solo_in_MD]

27. Its still evolutionary not revolutionary

and my title was based on the article which featuered a gushing by the head of a startup...

[XemaSab]

69. Obviously solar is not going to mean we'll decommission all other sources

tomorrow, but a giant expansion of solar plus existing nuclear plus existing hydro plus existing and expanded wind plus existing and expanded geothermal plus conservation and efficiency might just get us somewhere. :shrug:

I would worry that the thin cells would not be as effective in the snow as the current panels are.

[One_Life_To_Give]

88. At $1 / watt efficiency won't matter

What is lost in efficiency can be made up for by the shear volume of deployed systems. The key is getting the cost down from it's current $5/watt to something with a unsubsidized payback period of less than 3-5yrs.

[XemaSab]

89. If electricity became cheaper

wouldn't the payback period take longer?

[One_Life_To_Give]

90. Short term electric price won't drop

Not unless Coal suddenly becomes too cheap to meter will the price of Electricity drop. Right now most alternatives can't compete directly without governement subsidy. Give people a technology that allows them to generate electricity for less than Coal. And they will beat a path to the door.

[dweller]

25. Sweet !!

i've been watching this site http://www.nanosolar.com/

off and on over the last few years. check it out.

dp

[donkeyotay]

29. Thanks for this post

The tipping point in Germany and Japan came once households twigged that they could undercut their unloved utilities. Credit Lyonnais believes the rest of the world will soon join the stampede.

Long live the EV1. I can't wait to join the stampede and tell bush's oil mafia to stick it.

[GliderGuider]

31. Hallelujah, we're saved!

Well, some of us might be. Eventually.

Does anyone else think it's a little frightening when a piece of fluff like this comes out and everyone grabs on like a drowning man to a reed and yells "Hurray?" Does anyone else see the terrifying subtext to this response? "Hey, if this is really true, we can keep growing forever!"

When it hits the market, wake me up. Until then I'm getting more out of the reaction to articles like this than from the articles themselves. And what I'm seeing worries me a great deal. I know it sounds curmudgeonly, but new solar panels ain't gonna change the rules of exponentiation, which are the true enemy of mankind. There is no Deus Ex Machina, no matter how the machina is powered.

[phantom power]

39. I'm also interested that...

the two "most-recommended" posts are:

1) a solar technology that might be viable in five years. Or not.

2) a prototype electric car design from 1969

All other threads are distant seconds, in terms of recommendations.

[Dead_Parrot]

40. Two related threads...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x84025
Which is one of those interesting reads that disappears from E/E faster than a drowning polar bear, and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=1619
Because this shit is getting old. (Check the date!)

Enjoy...

[phantom power]

41. I've been reading the "solar poised..." headline for 25 years.

And I came along about half-way thru.

[Dead_Parrot]

42. They seem to be getting more frequent, though...

I wonder if we'll hit a "solar press release event horizon" where nearly all the worlds resources are used to issue press releases for solar start-ups, promising cheap PV in 2 years time.

The only industries remaining on the planet will be marketing, solar start-ups with a half-life of 18.39 minutes, and investment brokers.

[phantom power]

44. Maybe it will induce virtual PV/anti-PV pairs, which we can use for over-unity energy.

[XemaSab]

70. Goldman Sachs is a HUGH financer of alt energy now

Including solar thermal plants.

They're not a charity. They wouldn't be doing it unless they were standing to make some money.

[Dead_Parrot]

78. Solar thermal is a slightly different animal...

I've no doubt we'll see more of that. It's the weird fascination with having huge slabs of highly engineered semiconductors on your roof that get me.

[XemaSab]

82. Solar thermal is different, yes

but it's still a piece of the energy puzzle.

PV panels can't go everywhere, and besides, the mirrors provide shelter for tortoises. :D

[kestrel91316]

52. Well, I'm saying IF THIS IS TRUE, I might actually live as long as

my grandparents. And not freeze to death in my bed some winter.

[Porcupine]

59. We return to the regularly scheduled ecocide.

Glider the problem with Cassandra was that nobody would listen to her even when she was right. What whe was right about was their imminent deaths. We all have that problem now.

If energy were free, throw a sheet of these on the roof, plug it into the wall and you're good for power, climate change is still the #1 challenge. We will be twenty years retreading our culture if that's all we do.

Nobody really wants to hear that.

We want to go to Disneyland every day and not get bored of it. Hell, there are people on this board that still think that Iraq was a good idea; or at least not so bad as to condemn the idiots that voted for it.

The End of The World As We Know It.-it'll be a good show. Stock up on popcorn.

[roguevalley]

37. I want me some. I want to turn my house solar yesterday. Even

though I live in Alaska, I get a lot of sun.

[skids]

46. Don't wait for PV.

Solar thermal panels are a good deal now, much better than electricity.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

80. It's easy to do

We went solar over three years ago. We used the local "Harmony Farm Supply" for our materials. See: http://harmonyfarm.com/prostores/servlet/Search?category=Solar+Electricity
This page shows their roof with installed panels: http://harmonyfarm.com/prostores/servlet/Page?template=about
It's the third picture down. We went with the grid tie. We wanted the battery system and were going to have PV and Wind power, but the county demanded we have the wind generator on an 80 foot tower and get approval from all our neighbors. Wish we had now. When the power goes down, we are without too. It had a different inverter for the wind power and batteries.

Another source would be "Real Goods", they have a "Solar Living Source Book". Check out: http://www.gaiam.com/retail/SolarLiving?CMP=KNC-booyah&atlas=true&gcid=S18376x001&keyword=real%20goods
Or: http://www.gaiam.com/realgoods/
They have a place in Hopland Calif. and host a big workshop/Festival in the summer.

Good Luck, and Best Wishes, ADW

[AikidoSoul]

58. U.S. gov agencies have a history of subverting solar technology

development over the past thirty years. I know this based partly on personal experiences, but also on the advice of Edward Cobham, a deceased attorney with the FLorida Dept of Community Affairs who was my friend for more than ten years. Ed related numerous instances where government agencies and energy companies like Mobil Oil would setup solar businesses by encouraging them to expand and outlay cash, and then pull the rug out from under them.

That same strategy was used on the company that installed our photovoltaic panels on the rooftop of our Key West house back in the eighties. The guy quickly went out of business despite previous success until that point. He went into a deal with Mobil, laid our cash to invest in the project, and Mobil suddenly reneged. Mobil had invested in photovoltaic technology during that period.

The Florida Solar Energy Center is grossly underfunded. Scientists there complain that the funding only allows for superficial programs and that the development stage of solar is never funded except thinly, and for the sake of appearances. FSEC's scientists are on the defensive and won't discuss these problems for fear they will be punished by having more funding yanked. That was the atmosphere back in the early eighties during the Reagan admin. and for at least six years afterward. I can't imagine it's any better now during the petroBush/Cheney years.

The best documented history that I know of that describes how the U.S. government subverts efforts to expand solar energy is a book by R. Reece, called "The Sun Betrayed: A Report on the Corporate Seizure of US Solar Energy Development". 1979 ISBN 0896080714

Countless government agencies play the game of "supporting" solar, while undermining it on every level -- all done through bureaucratic tricks in cooperation with the petrochemical industry.

[jberryhill]

66. How do they manage to pull that off in...

China, Japan, Australia, Europe, India, and South America?

Are people in those parts of the world too stupid to make solar cells? Or does the US government control them too?

[AikidoSoul]

72. I don't know much about other countries and how those governments support or subvert

solar development. I suspect though that Japan supports it politically because they have no source of oil and energy is a big national security consideration. Some articles on energy say that Japan hs made a huge commitment to energy conservation and that entire cities compete with other cities to conserve. Most of the solar panels I saw there 12 years ago were water heating panels. Space is a problem -- most homes are tiny and roof areas insufficient to support enough photovoltaic panels to provide sufficient power to run a household. If homes are not designed to be south facing from the get-go -- it's hard to make photovoltaics work because sun angle cuts way down on efficiency.

You shouldn't be surprised that solar development is subverted by oil interests. Back in the late seventies and eighties a few of the oil companies bought up most of the existing photovoltaic manufacturers. After several years most of them dropped all pretense of interest in solar development and got out of that businesses entirely.

You already know that the U.S. is run by the petrochemical industry along with the military and medical industrial complexes. It shouldn't surprise you that they do major strategic planning to insure that their survival and interests are protected. We already know that these entrenched interests exert enormous control over political policies. It's one of the reasons we've begun to rot from within, and why so many of us are crying out for change.

The book, The Sun Betrayed is an eye-opener. Although it's dated, you can safely assume that the tactics used then would be used now. Even with the pressure of global warming, the oil companies are spending millions to buy "checkbook science" in an attempt to create enough controversy to slow down alternative energy development. The Environmental Working Group came out with a great investigative piece a month or so ago that documented these secret financial relationships between big oil and "scientists".

When Al Gore was cheated out of the presidency, we were cheated out of 21st century energy ideas. What we have instead are oil dinosaurs who have been clinging to power for decades. We need to pull them out by the roots so we can proceed into the future.

[amerikat]

60. I currently work for a company that is developing CiGS technology

There are many after this chemical holy grail. It is a difficult technology. It has great theoretical promise. It also has enormous investment costs. The metals/compound laid down on the substrate must be very pure. High vacuum is required for purity of each layer laid down. We Will get there........... It will take more time and money. Flisome does not quote anything about their process or effeminacy. Personally I think there is way to much competition and not enough collaboration . Just my personal view

[skids]

63. Too much competition, yeah, I can see that.

It will probably be looked back on as a case study of how much competition is too much. The companies are darn right near covert in some cases, which hurts effective PR aimed at critically thinking investors, and there are probably several hundred if not a few thousand solar startup companies all trying to shake the market up on a few million dollars of VC with a different technical twist. VC is scared of backing the wrong horse, and the consumer is completely in the dark.

Personally I'm waiting for an announcement that Evergreen has a low-level concentrator coming out based on one of the optics company's offerings, tuned to the width of their riibbons. Then the game is truly on. Or if nanosolar lives up to their hype, or any of the other concentrator folks actually announce prices and go retail with significant quantities. Till then prices will only slowly descend.

[jberryhill]

61. Within Five Years

Back when I worked in PV research, utopia was always "five years" away. Is there something special about "five years".

2002 was five years ago:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/04/020410075934.htm

Science Daily — Blacksburg, Va., April 9, 2002 -- Virginia Tech researchers' ability to create films in one-nanometer-thick layers is bringing flexible solar cells closer to reality<...>
"We expect organic solar cells will be at least as efficient as silicon within five years."

[GliderGuider]

64. Five years is just long enough

for people to forget you made a stupid prediction.

At least it was back in the days before Google...

[jpak]

71. Reality check - PV is off and running *today* - not five years from now

In 2005, 1700 MW of PV modules were produced shipped worldwide - and the industry is growing by major double digits each year.

Japanese and US PV manufacturers are building plants that will produce 650 MW of PV modules per year - they will be operating by 2010 at the latest.

One EU PV manufacturer is building a plant that will produce 1600 MW of PV modules per year - it will be ready by 2009.

The global market demand for PV is at least twice current production capacity -and growing.

No need to wait 5 years...

[GliderGuider]

79. It's a nice lifeboat technology

For a small community in extremis that needs to generate self-contained power any way it can, expense be damned, it's a good choice. For people in more normal circumstances with lots of money it's still a statement choice. "Waiting five years" is what it's going to take (at least) for PV electricity to be generally cost-competitive with mainstream generation.

Many of us have read these "five years to low cost" claims before. Wolf, wolf!

[Tace]

81. WARNING! -- This Guy Works For Swift-Boat Publisher Regnery

I ran a few grafs of this story and a link on the World News Trust site. Here's a comment someone just posted on the story:

Too cheap to meter! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA : Jasper Summer
Exactly Who is this, "Ambrose Evans-Pritchard" person?

Well here's his wikipedia page,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Ambrose Evans-Pritchard&fulltext=Search
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose_Evans-Pritchard

From this we learn that he writes for none other than RegneryPublishing.
And who are they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regnery_Publishing

They are the swift boat liars.
This guy works for the swift boat liars!

So he tells us that solar energy will be too cheap to meter, eh?

He is a lying shill for the Exxon / Rockefeller big oil LIARS.

When someone like him tells me not to worry, I get VERY worried.

This article says, basically, ... allow me to paraphrase ...

"govMint subsidies are the root of all evil."
"If you just let the pirates run the high seas, you don't need governments"
"the invisible hand is NOT i repeat NOT double dipping into your pocket."
also
did i mention that the "invisible hand" ... "never" ... "double dips" ... "into YOUR pocket" ..."so Shut the @#$% up about goverment oversight, regulation, and subsidies"

This whole article seems to be ideological claptrap meant to prevent people from supporting subsidies.

The Germans have subsidies and GUESS WHAT? they have solar panels.
The Americans have ideology, and Guess What? they do NOT have solar panels.

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb06?Na=evans-pritchard, ambrose

[Chemical Bill]

87. I wondered if anyone would notice that.

He wrote the well researched hachet job "The Secret Life of Bill Clinton". In that book he blamed all of Bush I and Oliver North's drug running on Clinton. He went into great detail on the Vince Foster case and then wrote as if Bill and Hil were the only people who had the power to order a hit (as if Bill and Hil had the power to order a hit, personally I think it was a warning to them). Anyway, I agree: >When someone like him tells me not to worry, I get VERY worried.

Bill

[suziedemocrat]

93. I have had so many right-wingers tell me how Clinton was somehow involved in drug running in AK

I wondered where they got the idea. They all state it like fact. And the same people think Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons. This explains a lot. Now I know where they are getting these ideas, because, outside of these nuts telling me verbally, I've never heard anything about it.

[NNadir]

94. How much solar energy is produced in Germany?

Any idea?

Are German carbon dioxide emissions being eliminated?

Have any of the 8 new huge German coal plants being cancelled?