Once the victim got his hands on a gun, things changed for the better...

[gorfle]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=509962&in_page_id=1770&ito=1490

"I grabbed the gun and bashed it across the knuckle-duster guy. Next thing is they took off and I chased them down the stairs."

"I have never used a weapon in my life and it was a great feeling."

I bet. The transformation from victim to conqueror must have been damn-near euphoric. Good for him. Of course, if he hadn't gotten that gun to put the odds in his favor, I bet things would have turned out a lot worse.

[shenmue]

1. Where are you when some drunk guy who's mad at his wife gets his hands on a gun?

Not so hot to trot then, are you?

Flamebait is specifically against the Terms of Service.

[gorfle]

3. Flamebait?

From the rules for this forum:

Discussion of gun-related public policy issues or the use of firearms for self-defense belong in the Guns Forum.

This is an article about the use of firearms for self-defense, and I found it especially interesting because the attackers were armed while the victim was originally not. It was also interesting because it happened in the UK - a place of harsh firearm restrictions.

I did not consider the article "flamebait". Rather, it was educational.

[mvccd1000]

4. And do you honestly believe that occurs...

... more often than defensive uses of firearms occur?

Please.

[TheMadMonk]

7. YOU FUCKING BETCHA ARSE IT DOES.

For every gun in a home that potentially saves a life there are several that very definitely take the lives of a resident or legitimate visitor in that home, a good many of them children.

A properly secured gun is absolutely useless defensively and one that is not secured and kept loaded is an invitation to disaster.

You wan't safety from a gun. Eat the bloody barrel. I absolutely guarantee nothing worse will ever happen to you from that moment forward.

[slackmaster]

9. I'm afraid you aren't going to be able to provide actual statistics to back that one up, TMM

Because many defensive uses of firearms go unreported.

If not keeping a gun in your home, or always keeping yours secured, makes you feel safer, that's fine with me.

I expect the same respect from you.

[jmg257]

10. WRONG! Let see - atleast .6 MILLION defensive uses of guns, vs 789 accidental deaths and

around 10,100 gun-involved murders. Even counting in the 17,000 or so suicides, CLEARLY your information is wrong.
That is only 27,890 gun-related "unjustified" deaths (i,e not self-defense) a year.

With 1.4 MILLION violent crimes annually, only 220,000 or so involving guns, the odds are MUCH more likely a gun will be used for self-defense. Atleast 1/2 MILLION defensive uses (Clinton DOJ study) and as many as 2 MILLION (John Lott), the benfits of our armed & free society are explicitly clear.

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2005 Total gun-involved murders: 10,100

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

2006 Total gun-related murders: 10,107

WIQARS 2004 causes of death:

Age under 1 : Firearm accident: 1
Ages 1-4: Drowning: 430
----------Homicide/gun: 36
----------Struck: 15
----------Firearm accident: 14
Ages 5-9: Suffocation: 45
----------Homicide/Gun: 45
----------Struck: 21
----------Firearm Accident: 13
Ages 10-14: Homicide/Gun: 139
------------Poisoning: 47
------------Suicde/Gun: 36
------------Firearm accident 35
Ages 15-19: Homicde/Gun: 1578
-------------Falling: 87
------------ Firearm accident 80

Total accidental death by firearm age 0-19: 143
2004 Total accidental death ALL ages: 649 (.6% of all deaths)
2005 Total accidental death ALL ages: 789 (.7% of all deaths)

WIQARS "2005 Suicides; 17,002 deaths by firearm"

[mvccd1000]

11. From your language and your ideals, I take it...

that you come from somewhere that the government has already disarmed you?

I'm sorry you buy into their "feel-good" statistics. Obviously, as posted above, those statistics are not based in reality.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

14. Since you failed to provide any data, you might try some of this...

"A new report from the National Safety Council indicates that accidental firearms-related fatalities remain at record lows, and accidents involving YOUTHS CONTINUE TO DECLINE SIGNIFICANTLY. Firearms-related fatalities fell 40 percent between 1995 and 2005, the greatest decrease in percentage of ALL MEASURED TYPES OF ACCIDENTAL FATALITIES in the U.S. All this occurred at a time when American gun ownership is at a record high -- more than 290 million guns owned and 47.8 million house-holds having at least one firearm." - Outdoor Life, May 2007, p. 12.

As to your comment that a gun "that is not secured and kept loaded is an invitation to disaster," I keep mine fully loaded beside my bed (it is lurking there even as I type this). When I am gone, it is locked up and moved. No disasters.

Your comment about "Eat the bloody barrel" reminds me of that joke about the guy who walked into the gun shop.

[meegbear]

2. I was brought up to believe you supposed to shoot a gun ...

not hit somebody with it.

[gorfle]

5. LOL that's what I was thinking, too.

I was brought up to believe you supposed to shoot a gun ... not hit somebody with it.

That's what I was thinking as I read the article, too - why didn't he shoot the perps. But it's probably not surprising - with no training he just acted on instinct and used it as a club. My guess is once the perps figured out that now he had the gun, that was enough to send them running.

[meegbear]

6. That's true ...

glad though in the end he won.

[slackmaster]

8. You use deadly force if and only if the situation calls for it

If lesser force is sufficient to handle a situation, it is never appropriate to use deadly force. If bludgeoning someone with a gun is sufficient to stop an attack, that is a perfectly appropriate USE of the gun. If merely displaying the gun stops the attack, you need not, SHOULD NOT escalate the situation to use of physical force.

Take a firearm self-defense course some time. Or an edged weapons self-defense course. Or an empty hand self-defense course.

Sheesh, people in general are ignorant about this subject.

[ManiacJoe]

16. Not always.

Guns are distance weapons. At contact distances, they can become much less effective. In his case, in hand to hand combat the father disarmed the attacker, clubbed the attacker, then created distance to regain the effectiveness of the gun.

[krispos42]

13. Wait, it looks like it was a fake gun!

Michael Atkins, 25, and Dean Atkins, 26, both of no fixed address, deny murder, two counts of aggravated burglary, wounding with intent and possession of an imitation firearm with intent.

I wonder if he fought back because he realized it was fake. I also wonder why the thugs ran ran if they knew it was fake.

[SteveM]

15. Yeah, I saw that too. Glad to see there are worse writers in the world than me.

I don't know the answer to the first question, but as to the second, I suspect the fellow was getting the best of the others -- they sure were wasting time at that point. Even most animals know when it's time to quit, lest you get slowed up and are taken down yourself.

[ManiacJoe]

17. Fake gun or not,

the father had been repeatedly stabbed and beaten, and yet was still fighting and even starting to win.

I might decide to quit at that point, too! :-)

[FreepFryer]

18. self-delete (n/t)