What we know about the Illinois shooting

[gorfle]

Well, it seems that the shooter bought all four of his weapons from the same federally licensed gun store. He bought two of the weapons, a shotgun and a pistol, on February 9th, just days before the shooting. He bought another pistol on December 30th, and another on August 6th. Since he bought them from an FFL dealer, he had to have gone through NICS background checks for all of the purchases.

He held a state-required license for firearm ownership.

The shooter told a friend he had been discharged from the Army for psychological reasons.

His parents put him in a mental institution for a year after high school because of behavior problems. While there, it is said that he had problems "cutting himself" and refusing to take medication.

He worked as a law enforcement officer as a prison guard.

He was taking medication for an undisclosed condition, but had recently stopped taking it and was behaving erratically. I think it's safe to say it was for psychological issues.

So what we have here is a clearly mentally damaged person who had spent a year in a mental institution, was possibly discharged from the Army for psychological problems, and was probably taking drugs for a psychological problem. Yet he passed a NICS background check on at least 3 separate occasions in the last year and this - as late as February 9th.

In spite of his mental health background, he bought his weapons and committed his crimes in one of the most restrictive states in the nation with regards to firearms ownership.

Here's my take on all of this: There was a screw-up at both the State and Federal level.

NICS is probably very effective at weeding out people with past criminal records. It does not seem very effective at weeding out people with mental health issues.

Something needs to be done to insure that the NICS database is more complete with regards to people who should not own firearms due to mental health reasons.

According to MSNBC, "Kazmierczak had a state police-issued FOID, a firearms owners identification card, which is required in Illinois to own a gun, authorities said. Such cards are rarely issued to those with recent mental health problems." This means there was also a screw-up at the State level.

It seems to me, in hindsight, that there were plenty of warning signs here and plenty of opportunities for him to show up on the government's radar as a person who may be unstable and should not own a firearm.

I wonder if the State and/or Federal government can be held accountable for granting permission for such people to own firearms?

[fenriswolf]

1. thats a good point

are people who have major psycological problems but have an otherwise clean record able to purchase weapons, I guess so since that is what happened in this case.

that seems kind of obvious though, people not in the right frame of mind (spin how you will) should not be allowed near weaponry.

or in charge of prisoners for that matter.

[gorfle]

2. Not according to MSNBC...

are people who have major psycological problems but have an otherwise clean record able to purchase weapons, I guess so since that is what happened in this case.

According to MSNBC, "Kazmierczak had a state police-issued FOID, a firearms owners identification card, which is required in Illinois to own a gun, authorities said. Such cards are rarely issued to those with recent mental health problems."

I don't know how well NICS is tied into mental health information. This is from the NICS page:

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics.htm

"A person adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or incompetent to handle own affairs, including dispositions to criminal charges pertaining to found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial."

It would seem to me his 1-year long stay in a mental hospital would have bounced him on a NICS background check.

[fenriswolf]

3. so perhaps the person who sold him the firearms

glossed over that fact on his back ground check?

[Redneck Socialist]

4. The seller doesn't really have anything to do with the check

other than calling it in. If the info that a person has a history of psychological issues isn't in the state or federal data base then the sale is going to proceed.

[ManiacJoe]

5. The more likely scenario is that

the institution did not properly update the feds with the necessary data for the NICS system.

[benEzra]

8. His record was clean enough to work as a law enforcement officer,

so obviously the info didn't make it into his records.

A gun seller does not have the option of ignoring a seller's background, as the seller does not conduct the NICS check; the Federal government does, and IIRC gives the seller a confirmation code to write down if the buyer passes. (I'm not an FFL, so I've never conducted one.)

[krispos42]

6. What if it was a voluntary committment?

His parents say something like "Hey, you need help. We'd like to send you here to this private facility to get some counseling", and then the kid says "Okay".

Is that why maybe it didn't show up? Because it was a voluntary commitment, not ordered by a judge?

[benEzra]

9. Possible.

It's also possible that his discharge from the military was medical? Generally, any less-than-honorable discharge bars you for life from owning a firearm, but a medical discharge wouldn't.

[Turbo Teg]

14. Sorry Ezera

That is incorrect. You are only barred if your discharged was characterized as Dis-honorable. Other than honorable, general, and even bad conduct is still OK, as they reserve Dis-honorable discharges for Felonies.

[krispos42]

7. "granting permission"

Is that the accurate way to say it?

Or should we be saying that the government had reasonable evidence and due process to deny Kazmierczak the right to own guns, but failed to act on that evidence"?

Remember, framing the argument is half of winning the argument!

[gorfle]

10. Semantics, Krispos...

The bottom line, Krispos, is that if you want to buy a new firearm today you have to have permission from the government to do it. We can call it "background checks", or "reasonable evidence and due process to deny", or whatever else we want to come up with, but the bottom line is the dealer must call a government agency and get a "yes" or "no" from the government on whether or not you can buy a firearm or not.

[krispos42]

11. Framing...

how somethings goes from being a "right" to a "priviledge".

So many times they make comparison to driver's licences (a priviledge) that it is shifting the whole perception.

And when something's a "priviledge" instead of a "right", then it becomes a whole lot easier for politicians and such to regulate it.


This has negative effects for the future, same as when people began thinking the Constitution "grants" rights instead of protecting them and regulating under what circumstances they can be infringed.

Homosexuals have the right to same-sex marriage but nearly all states refuse to acknowledge, recognize, or protect that right. However, it's protrayed as not "granting" that right instead.

[gorfle]

12. I agree with you 100%

how somethings goes from being a "right" to a "priviledge".

Oh I agree with you 100%, Krispos, but the fact of the matter is, we are already on that slippery slope. We are now in a situation where our right to bear arms comes with strings - if you want to buy new arms you have to get permission from the government in order to exercise that right.

I'm glad you recognize that problem for what it is, but I don't want to try and water down the problem by calling it something else than what is is - the asking and granting of permission in order to buy new firearms.

We are right now engaged in the struggle for firearms rights. We are right right now at the point where our right is being corrupted into a privilege.

Don't let semantics cloud the issue.

[jody]

13. Ill law says it's a crime if "(4) He has been a patient in a mental hospital within the past 5 years

and has any firearms or firearm ammunition in his possession;"

See (720 ILCS 5/24-3.1) Sec. 24-3.1. Unlawful possession of firearms and firearm ammunition.

Kazmierczak had a state police-issued FOID so apparently he was not a patient in a mental hospital within the past five years.