Criminals commit crimes

[Indy Lurker]

This is especially true of crimes with guns such as homicides.

This, I think, is point that needs to be made to folks who think we need more gun control.
This, I think, is where the confusion lies.

I believe everyone wants to keep gun out of the hands of convicted criminals, whether it's armed robbers, or those who commit domestic violence.

I think people who qualify to legally purchase firearms are not committing most of the crimes with guns. In fact, I think they stop a great deal of crime.

If it can be shown that the average citizen who legally carries a firearm deters more crimes and commits fewer crimes than the average citizen, there can be no "logical" reason to restrict firearms from being legally carried by the average citizen.


But what I think isn't really important, what's important, is what can be proven with data and facts.



So, let me pose a question, to be answered with data and facts, not just emotion and "common knowledge"






Does an average citizen who legally carries a firearm deter more crime or commit more crime that the average citizen?

[meegbear]

1. Can you answer a question ...

You said: I think people who qualify to legally purchase firearms are not committing most of the crimes with guns. In fact, I think they stop a great deal of crime.

Then before you ask your question, you say: So, let me pose a question, to be answered with data and facts, not just emotion and "common knowledge"

The question to you, to be answered with data and facts, not just emotion and "common knowledge", is what is the data that shows that people who legally purchase firearms have stopped a great deal of crime?

[Indy Lurker]

7. If I had the data I wouldn't needed to ask for it. :)

I will do some digging,

But I imagine it will be something on defensive gun use, and conviction rate of gun owners.

[meegbear]

8. OK, thanks

:hi:

[sabre73]

18. WOW

He said he would look up the info. You will not even afford him the same courtesy? I hope that I am wrong. If not then that is pretty sad.

[sabre73]

17. That is weak.

Answer a question with the opposite question because you can't or WON'T come up with an honest answer!

[meegbear]

19. Yep ...

the logic here is since you can't prove the sky is green, that proves the sky is red.

The OP says I believe something is true, now you have to give solid to prove me wrong, but I don't have to give any to prove it right.

So give some facts to prove his belief.

[jmg257]

2. Yes - but the numbers are VERY close. DO NOT count on stats to justify

unalienable rights - they do not always agree! Although in this case - they do.

From an anti-gun report "An evaluation of state firearms regulations and homicide suicide rates", from a Univ of Pittsburgh group.

Now - 1st thing, while looking at gun laws, they compare "homicide" and "firearm homicide" rates - NOT "murder", "gun related murder", or other gun related crimes, so what exactly they were trying to prove escapes me; they mention however the attempt to study 'the benefits of shall issue laws enacted with the goal of curtailing fiream deaths'... {hmmmmmm...'K....thought they were enacted to give the people back the right to self-security, avoid letting the people be unwilling victims of violent criminals, or...}

BUT ANYWAY, from

Table 2:
---------------
Rates per 100,000...
Firearm Homicides : 5.00
Firearm Homicides : 5.90
All Homicides : 7.5
All homicides : 8.99

"Summary Point 3: A "shall issue" law that permits the carrying of a handgun in an unrestricted fashion may be associated with an increase in homicide rates."

WHAT????? But the numbers...right there...BOTH "w/ shall issue" homicide rates were lower...:wtf:???

And from
Table 4 Suicides
---------------------
Rates per 100,00...
Firearm Suicides : 9.70
Firearm Suicides : 10.20
All Suicides : 14.5
All Suicides :14.5

"Summary point 4: "Little evidence was observed that any of the laws evaluated (they include legal age 21 laws) were associated with a significant reduction in either firearm homicide or firearm suicide rates."

GREAT - not that it is an issue, but what about the fact that...
THE CHARTS - YOUR CHARTS - show a reduction in not only Firearm Homicides, but all homicides AND a reduction in firearm suicides with shall issue laws vs. w/o shall issue laws, so :wtf:??

What the study REALLY showed:

"with regards to the enactment of shall issue laws, even firearm homicides and suicides did not get worse, and in fact, they went down.

[jmg257]

14. Sorry - fixed charts! Damn &^%{[ brackets...

Rates per 100,000...
Firearm Homicides {with shall issue law}: 5.00
Firearm Homicides {w/o shall issue law} : 5.90
All Homicides {rate with shall issue law} : 7.5
All homicides {rate w/o shall issue law} : 8.99

Summary Point 3::"A "shall issue" law that permits the carrying of a handgun in an unrestricted fashion MAY be associated with an increase in homicide rates." {but they are not.}

And from Table 4 Suicides
Rates per 100,00...
Firearm Suicides {with shall issue law}: 9.70
Firearm Suicides {w/o shall issue law} : 10.20
All Suicides {rate with law} : 14.5
All Suicides {rate w/o law} :14.5

[Spoonman]

3. Logic in not used by most

of the ravenous anti-gun crowd found posting here, so you are setting yourself up for disappointment from the start.

Not being a total killjoy, here are the numbers from Texas as it relates to your question.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2005.pdf

These conviction rates clearly show that CCL holders are FAR less likely to commit, not just homicides, but ANY type of criminal act.

[jmg257]

4. And for law-abiding CCW holders:

"One study found that in Florida CCW holders were 300 times less likely than the general population to commit a crime. The firearm crime rate among license holders, annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Between the beginning of Florida’s permitting program and the end of 2005, the state issued 1,104,468 concealed weapons permits. During that time period; 3,643 permits were revoked—a rate of about .3 percent. Of those revocations; 2,941 involved a crime after licensure; 157 of those crimes involved the use of a firearm. "
************

"A Texas study found that CCW holders in that state were "5.7 times less likely to commit a violent crime, and 14 times less likely to commit a non-violent offense."
************

"North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law."

*********
"Georgia: "studies by numerous independent researchers and state agencies have found that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes"

*********
in 2004, the state of Utah had a permit revocation rate of about .4 percent. The rate for revocations due to
firearm offenses was .02 percent..

**********
"between 1986 and 2003, only .8 percent of Kentucky's 71,770 licenses were revoked for any reason"

**********
"in 2001, Indiana revoked about .2 percent of its outstanding concealed weapon permits"

**********
"since the inception of its concealed weapons program in 1995, Virginia has seen a revocation rate of just .2
percent."

*********
"between October of 1994 and February of 1996, the state of Wyoming issued 2,273 permits and revoked
four, a revocation rate of just under .2 percent.

*********
"between 1996, when its shall-issue law passed, and September of 1999, the state of Oklahoma issued 30,406
permits and revoked only 62–a rate of .2 percent."


The truth shouldn't come as a surprise either.
This is what you typically know about a person who has a CCW in many states:
(specifically Tennessee in the example)

They've never been convicted of "any felony offense punishable for a term exceeding one (1) year".
They've never been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
They've never been convicted of the offense of stalking.
They were not under indictment at the time they applied for a CCW.
They were not the subject of an order of protection at the time they applied for a CCW.
They haven't had a DUI in the past five years or two or more DUIs in the past 10 years
They haven't been under treatment for or hospitalized for addiction to drugs or alcohol in the past 10 years.
They've never been adjudicated as mentally defective.
They've never been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions ("dishonorable discharge, bad conduct discharge or other than honorable discharge Chapter 1340-2-5-.02 (5)").
They've never renounced their U.S. citizenship.
They've never received social security disability benefits "by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability."


Besides, most CCW holders know exactly what the law is, and the responsibility of carrying and the serious implications of using a CCW inappropriately, so many holders tend to AVOID more situations that may be inclined to lead to trouble.

[Indy Lurker]

9. lots of good data

do you have any links, or sources?

[unpossibles]

5. I agree 100% that the vast majority of gun owners (myself included) are law-abiding

I think the problem most people have - and this is a guess, honestly - is the fear that those guns (and other guns) will be more easily purchased/stolen by criminals, and/or that those guns may fall into the hands of people who are less than responsible, but ot criminals, such as children who do not understand or appreciate firearm safety.

I think the issue gets clouded by emotional rhetoric on both sides. Each side lumps many disparate elements into one homogenous group. The pro-gun side thinks everyone else is anti-gun, that they all want to ban all guns, etc., when many in the gun-control side really just want the guns more regulated or licensed. Same with the anti-gun & pro-control side - they see the pro-gun side as being fervent and irrational, and maybe worse. I don't know.

I am all for responsible gun ownership, and fully support the CCL for that reason. I am not anti-gun (or other weapon) in the least, but I would like people to be more responsible and educated if possible, and that means people on both sides of the issue. Yes, most of my gun buddies are very educated and responsible - not saying they aren't - but we need to be realistic about the effect guns have on our society as well, I think. I also know more than a few total hot-heads who legally carry, but who I don't trust to do so. I mean folks who have extensive violence records, etc., yet are still able to carry. Can't say I am too crazy about that, even though they are in the minority.

Anyway, my 2¢. Not trying to start flames.

[EricTeri]

6. Whatever their fears are

they are irrational and irrelevant. You do not penalize the law abiding because a criminal may steal and misuse a person's property.

[jmg257]

10. Your opinion is appreciated!

Safe and responsible is fine. There really isn't a BIG problem as is (approx 790/yr accidental deaths), gun-related accidental deaths is #15 on the list. But even 1 is 1 too much, so what better way to educate children then to expose them to firearms at a young age - to make them aware of & respect what is at stake when handling them? remove the mystery and show the truth, teach them safety & common sense.

Trying to limit access for criminals IS important, but so is handling the offender correctly: *most offenders of gun violence have serious criminal histories, are repeat gun offenders, are out on probation, and/or are gang members or are related to drug activity. (*according to New Haven report 1999) If we can get rid of around 66% of offenders *snap* - like that, why don't we? We KNOW who they are.

As for criminals in general - they WILL by their nature break the law, there is little we can do about that, except try to make their willingness to do so not worth the potential cost/risk. But even so, why should the 99.85% of us who will NOT break the law with a gun suffer a loss of rights because of the .15% who may use a gun to committ a crime? (FBI stats).

"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878


Understood also about hot-heads - unfortunately rights protect them as well as the peaceful citizen. There would have to be some trade-off, and for the most part it doesn't seem worth it. (i.e. "gun free zones", AWB & other bans). It is always important to remember WHY our right is secured. That is why restrictive gun laws must be subject to strict scrutiny.

[unpossibles]

12. right. I agree on the education part

I learned how to shoot at a young age, don't really do it any more and would take a class if I decided to do so again. I learned to respect guns and not see them as toys or other.

Now BB guns, on the other hand.... ;)

[spin]

11. Several different views....

The Brady Campaign view: http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ccw

Violence policy Center view: http://www.vpc.org/gunviolence.htm

The Hover Institution view: http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3574822.html


Interview with John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html
Link to page on the book: More Guns, Less crime: http://polyticks.com/polyticks/beararms/liars/moreguns.htm
Brady Campaign view on the book More Guns, Less Crime: http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/?page=lott_mglc&menu=pro


NRA view: http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007


Link to an interesting article on how the Clean Air Act might have reduced crime: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/magazine/21wwln-idealab-t.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1193069109-tIv/I01qmqYqqX/fw3A7Iw&oref=slogin

[Indy Lurker]

13. Data from Brady looks pretty weak

From Brady:

"1996 through April 2000, the arrest rate for weapon-related offenses among Texas concealed handgun license holders was 66% higher than that of the general adult population of Texas. CCW license holders are committing crimes - including murder, rape, assault and burglary - but because the gun lobby makes it difficult if not impossible for the public to determine if a shooter has a CCW license in most states, the full story has not yet been told."

First, they are looking at arrest rate, which isn't very useful, our system of justice says a person is innocent until proven guilty. I also believe most police will arrest a person with a gun any time there is an incident until they can be sure the person is safe, Then the charges are dropped. This could be an hour or a day, (the police hate to not arrest someone only to find out they are wanted somewhere else.)

Secondly, they are only looking at a subset of arrests, in this case "weapon-related offenses" This is incorrect and gives a very skewed result. Obviously people with weapons are going to be arrested for "weapon-related offenses" more that people who are not permitted to carry weapons. Using this logic, I'm certain you will find that people with cars and and drivers licenses get arrested for DUI's at a much higher rate than people without licenses or cars.

Thirdly, they don't list any sources.


They also state:

"Law-abiding citizens with the best intentions underestimate how hard it is to use a gun for self-defense successfully. Even highly-trained police officers lose control of their handguns; according to the FBI, 5 out of 41 law enforcement officers (12%) killed by gunfire in the line of duty in 1999 were killed by an adversary with the officer's own service weapon."

So it appears that 5 police officers were killed in 1999 with their own weapon, and 41 were killed by gunfire. Unfortunately, Brady doesn't provide any other context that would make this useful.


According to the FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_29.html)

There were 14,094,186 arrests in 2005 (a different year, but that's what I found)

That puts the the odd of getting killed by gunfire during an arrest at 0.00029% or 1 for every 343,000 arrests.


More telling is the fact that it is still more dangerous to be a cab driver that a cop,

According to http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/updates/94-101.html

Occupations with the highest rates of homicide per 100,000 workers (note this does not include traffic accidents) are taxicab drivers/chauffeurs (15.1), law enforcement officers (9.3)


I''ll check out the others links as I get time.

[spin]

15. I tried to post links to different viewpoints.

I hope you find comparing them interesting.

A few other links:

Statistics, Gun Control Issues, and Safety
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html


40 Reasons For Gun Control:
http://www.kc3.com/editorial/40reasons.htm


Firearms and Crime Statistics: (The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS))
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

[Big Al Mac]

16. Download "Gun Facts 4.2"

from here: http://gunfacts.info/

[krispos42]

20. The worry here, Indy...

Is that since criminals get about 40% of their guns by means of theft, that thousands of law-abiding citizens are arming criminals by having their guns stolen and sold on the black market.

[CTyankee]

21. A family member was killed by one of those "law abiding" citizens who had a gun legally.

Thing is, he was "law abiding" until he wasn't. He was angry, drunk and had his legal gun all loaded and ready to protect his property. He then committed suicide.

No recommendations on gun laws and no opinions on 2nd amendment. Just what happened. Everybody can draw their own conclusions.

[bossy22]

22. suicide is different

I am very sorry about your loss, suicide is a horrible thing, for the individual and his family. I had a family friend who committed suicide only 4 years ago- he parked his car, turned up the heat, and just went to bed- forever.

it is very hard to prevent suicide, if someone really wants to kill themselves- they will do it.

[CTyankee]

23. Sorry, I was not clear in my post that this man killed my neice

and shot and wounded her mother and grandmother before he shot and killed himself. Because he was so drunk and an old guy, I am certain that my neice could have outrun/outmaneuvered him if he had had a knife. She couldn't outrun the bullet to her right temple.

[bossy22]

24. thats horrible

reminds me of story in my town about 10 years ago of a man who committed suicide by starting his car in his garage- the 5 other people in the house died in their sleep- tragic

[CTyankee]

25. I never heard that one. Was his intent to kill them or just himself? n/t

[bossy22]

26. just himself

ive been trying to find the article- but it was 10 years ago so im having trouble.....it actualyl happens too frequently- during my Firefighter training we were taught that sometimes a CO (carbon monoxide reading) in one house may be from a next door house due to someone most likely trying to commit suicide. If you google CO suicides you usually can hear of innocent members of the family getting killed

its a silent killer

what happened in my towns case was that the mother opened the door to the garage to get something and the gas was so strong that it killed her instantly, and since the door was open it flooded through the house quickly and killed the 3 children sleeping in their beds :(