Here are the rules of survival in a gun fight

[sabre73]

I know some of you may have already read this but I figure any information that is good is worth repeating.

Rules for a Gunfight
Anonymous

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket."

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".

25. You can't miss fast enough to win.

[C_U_L8R]

1. Sounds like a plan for the debate tonight

: - ))))

[zanne]

2. Are you going to write a manual about how to stuff and mount a human now?

You sound like a real psycho.

[sabre73]

7. I suppose the noble thing to do

would be to let the person who is assaulting you to just kill you and allow him get on with his life?

Some people have no respect for the God given right to live your life in peace. These rules are merely a guideline to help ensure the "good guys survival".

And please Ms. zanne, don't make light of killing people. It is a harsh reality that some people have had forced upon them. To say things like "Are you going to write a manual about how to stuff and mount a human now?" shows that you have no sense of how hard it is for some people to get over feeling like a victim twice over because they were attacked and then because they had to eliminate the attacker in order to survive.

Sadly when a victim turns into the Victor scorn and bitter remarks is usually all they get when the truth is they really need someone to help them through a tough time.

You sound like you are bitter and alone in life and for that you have my pity

[zanne]

22. I've been married for 28 years, I have a family and friends.

But thanks for your concern.

[sabre73]

23. Oh, well... In that case please feel free to

make such terrible comments about those who have actually had to protect their families or friends.

[zanne]

27. You wouldn't be happy unless...

1) I said that I love guns.
2) I said that I owned many of them.
3) I said that I once shot someone in self defense.
4) I said that the regulations on gun sales and ownership are too strict.
5) I said that every grade school student should be armed.

You're just a gun-happy human being. I feel sorry for you.

[sabre73]

36. Here is the honest truth on my stance

1) I am fine with anyone who hates guns. I don't pick my friends based on that. Some of my friends love them and some do not. My Lifelong "Best friend" absolutely abhors them.

2) I would not want you to own a gun if you were uncomfortable with them. I completely believe that we should all be free to exercise our freedom of choice so long as it does not impose upon others to do something they choose not too. So GOOD FOR YOU if you don't own a gun because you don't want too.

3) This one kind of hurts to read. That you would say that (and I am sure that you don't believe it) tells me that you would wish hateful things on others who don't view as you do. I am not overly sensitive to words but I am very sensitive on the subject. I have lost MANY friends as a result of gun violence by CRIMINALS and it is very painful. I have also had may hand forced and I still have trouble with it from time to time. I would not wish that on my worst enemy but, if ever you did hurt someone in self defense then I would be happy to try and help you through it and I know of a lot of good sources for that type of help if you would rather not deal with me. I pray that it never happens to you or yours.

4) I have no problem with the current legislation and regulations in place. I encourage those laws to actually be enforced as they were intended to be. But I am against new stricter laws. They would serve no purpose in preventing crimes with guns.

5) Lastly, FTGFN and I had a discussion about this last point in another post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=158569&mesg_id=159888

What I said was:

If people are really

suggesting that they should "arm" students under the age of 21 then they are mentally deficient and their threads should not be taken seriously. They are most likely flame baiting for the fun of it.

The I continued with another member at the thread with another member. Please read it. You might realize that you don't have to hate me.

I am definitely a happy human being. However, I don't understand what you think that has to do with guns. God has blessed me with two wonderful girls and an amazing wife. That is what makes me happy. After 12 years of being with her guns hardly have to enter into the picture. They do simply because that is the way of our life. That is what happens when you piss of enough people by arresting them while attempting to make others their latest victims.


You need not feel sorry for me... I am Blessed. Thanks.
:grouphug:

[bb62]

54. Guns working in Iraq (for the common people)

Note the Bold section in the following article. Guns, and the willingness to use them, can indeed deter lawlessness and create the conditions for peace that allow people to go on with their lives.

Petraeus Takes Fallujah

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - Women shrouded in black shop for gold jewelry and fabric. Young boys tote trays of tea. The smell of tangerines wafts through the air. This is Fallujah 2008-a former insurgent stronghold that U.S. commanders now hold up as an example for the rest of Iraq.

Anbar province was the stronghold of the insurgency that mobilized in the months after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion routed Saddam Hussein. Some of the bloodiest fighting of the war took place in Fallujah, the heart of the anti-American resistance until American troops stormed the city in November 2004.

The Euphrates River city, 40 miles west of Baghdad, remained a virtual prison and rebuilding was slow to take hold after the U.S. Marines clamped down on the perimeter and continued to face fierce fighting with insurgents.

That changed last year when Sunni tribal leaders joined forces with the Americans to deprive al-Qaida of sanctuaries and force the militants to flee or go into hiding. The awakening movement has since spread to Baghdad and surrounding areas but nowhere has it been more widely successful at quelling the violence than in Anbar.

The military acknowledges al-Qaida and its trademark bombings remain a threat in the area. A teenager blew himself up during a gathering of tribal members near Fallujah on Jan. 20, killing six people after using his tribal connections to penetrate tight security.

Fallujans were all smiles on Saturday as the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus, strolled helmetless through the central bazaar in the city. He stopped to drink tea and chat with vendors in a maze of stalls peddling everything from fruit to patterned rugs, most imported from Syria.

He heard some complaints about services and restricted access to the city of some 400,000 people. A line of cars and minibuses a half-mile long waited at the main checkpoint at the edge of the city on Saturday. Trucks enter at a separate post so their loads can be scanned.

The general smiled and said that was the price for security, but the military was working to improve the situation.

Abdul-Rahman Muhsin, a 42-year-old clothes vendor in the Fallujah market, said the turning point came when Americans began allowing residents to maintain one weapon at home.

"This overdue measure helped the people to defend themselves," he said. "Now, whenever we see al-Qaida attacking our neighbor, we don't have to stand watching from the sidelines but we can all fight al-Qaida together."

With peace restored in Anbar, long-standing tribal rivalries have begun to resurface as a draft law laying out a timeline for new provincial elections is stalled in the national parliament. Many Sunnis are mad-they boycotted the first vote and are looking for a new distribution of power as payback for their efforts against al-Qaida.

In Anbar, the 22-member provincial council is dominated by the moderate Iraq Islamic Party of Sunni Vice President Tariq al-Hashemi, drawing protests from the influential tribal leaders.

Awakening council representatives announced this week that they were giving the party 30 days to vacate the seats it holds in the provincial council or face a crackdown like that launched against al- Qaida.

"The disputes with the Iraq Islamic Party began as we were fighting al-Qaida in Anbar. The Islamic Party defended al-Qaida and we hold against it any blood that was shed in Anbar," awakening council chief Hamid al-Hayeis said Wednesday at a press conference in Baghdad, where he was lobbying for support from the national parliament.

The head of the Anbar provincial council, Abdul Salam al-Ani of the Iraq Islamic Party, countered Saturday with a threat to sue al-Hayeis.

Ahmed Khames, a 53-year-old electrical equipment dealer in central Fallujah, said the politicians and tribal leaders were jockeying for power and a cut of lucrative U.S. reconstruction contracts.

"The situation in Fallujah has gone from facing an al-Qaida threat to a new threat from warlords, those who lead armed groups affiliated with the awakening," he said.

U.S. commanders played down the tensions but said they were an example of the new reality in Anbar.

Marine Maj. Gen. Walter E. Gaskin of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force, who handed over control of the roughly 33,000 U.S. troops in Anbar on Saturday, acknowledged the fractured nature of the Sunni chieftains.

"They are homogenous in dialect, but they are independent in opinion and politics," he said at a news conference at the U.S. base near Fallujah. "What is important about the factions is that they are airing their political differences and solving them without violence."

Petraeus said dealing with that new reality would be one of the biggest challenges for the new Anbar commander, Maj. Gen. John Kelly of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force.

"It's a very different challenge than the unit that preceded them, which of course had to deal with a very high level of violence," he said, stressing the need "to try to build on the momentum of the awakening movement, to try to keep a bunch of fractious tribal sheiks and Iraqi security force leaders pulling together at the traces instead of in different directions.

"Now there's quite a bit of momentum, but over time of course they're going to have to try to maintain, sustain and build on that momentum with fewer forces," he said.

During the handover ceremony, Gaskin noted that Anbar, which stretches west from Baghdad to the borders with Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, had just months ago been declared a "lost cause."

"There is perhaps no province that better typifies the struggle for peace in Iraq than Anbar," Gaskin said.

Gaskin, who announced last month that Anbar will be returned to Iraqi control in March, said attacks in the North Carolina-sized province of an estimated 1.3 million people had dropped from an estimated 400 per week to about 25, and the number of Iraqi police had grown from 11,000 to 24,000.

The increase in Iraqi security forces also helped U.S. and Iraqi troops push most of the insurgents out of the population centers in an effort to push them northward and disrupt the flow of weapons and foreign fighters into Baghdad, commanders said.

The military said January saw a total of 155 attacks in Anbar, the lowest since the U.S. took control of the area after Saddam's ouster.

Gaskin said al-Qaida would always try to reassert itself in the province, but he expressed confidence the turning tide against the terror network and its brutal tactics was "irreversible."

[Turbo Teg]

58. I feel sorry for you

Actually I feel sorry for your family knowing that they have a male in the house like you. My women would slap me if I said some shit like that. My family wants a protector, not a fucking pussy.

[HiDemGunOwner]

48. Good post

And I bet zanne would only think you're psych until she needed to call "you" when someone was breaking down her door or trying to assault her. Then you'd be the "good" guy....strange thought process from some....

[Irreverend IX]

9. I don't have taxidermy instructions, but if you like Pacific island cuisine...

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/e-sermons/butcher.html

[sabre73]

10. That is beyond disturbing

Maybe it will make zanne happy though.

[L1A1Rocker]

12. I'm not even going to follow that link.

I can read the link well enough to figure it out.

[krispos42]

31. Well, that was...

...not dissimilar to instructions for gutting deer.

Which is not fun either.

[L1A1Rocker]

13. Why would anyone want to do that?

To suggest such a thing is very telling.

[sabre73]

14. What ever makes her "tick"

is something I doubt I would ever be able to comprehend.

[zanne]

21. What makes me tick is that I'm a compassionate adult.

Flame away, as I know you will, but there's something to be said about treasuring human life and not making light of how to kill it. Some of you have watched too many Rambo movies and behave as though, should you be faced with a life and death encounter, would react in exactly the way he did. The fact is, you'd probably just shoot yourselves in the foot or not even be able to get to your weapon in time. This isn't seventh grade and we're not playing cops and robbers. Get a grip.

[sabre73]

25. Well

the truth is that W have been a victim of a criminal. I did not shoot myself in the foot and I dare say that some 25+ years of advanced training has helped with that.

Tell me zanne? Would you say that you value the lives of your family over a criminal who who intends them harm or would you say it is the other way around.

Maybe you used the wrong word by mistake because the word compassion is NOt something I would use to describe even 1 of your over abundant posts.

[zanne]

26. If you dislike my posts....

That means I'm doing something right.

[L1A1Rocker]

33. Is that to say that your only reason for

posting is to make someone made? Why would a compassionate forward thinking progressive do something like that?

[sabre73]

37. I am not sure I understand?

What are you doing right? If I don't like your posts it usually because they ring of hatred directed at me and others of my "ilk". Is that the measure of your compassion?

[sabre73]

45. You continuous lack of rebuttal tells us

that we called it correctly; and you have no smart zinger (not that they have ever were intelligent) to through at us.

Is it possible that you can't argue the fact of your "un-compassionate" nature?.

Well, I'll be.

[SteveM]

28. What makes you tick is animosity behind a veil of compassion and prohibition

You show very little compassion around here, only a lot of hateful attacks. But I guess that one of the conceits of "modern liberalism" is the establishment of a political "culture" which makes some feel more moral, above the fray, superior (and compassionate) by defining fellow humans in terms of firearms -- then hating them. I mean, skin color, sexual orientation, religion and ethnicity are just so old hat. Around here, readers can see this on the privacy of their screens. Trouble is, many Americans have seen through this faux liberalism and vote accordingly.

[Hangingon]

30. Steve M. You hit the mark squarely. Thanks

[EricTeri]

35. You're welcome to be as much of pacifist as you want

You do not have the right to expect others to be the same.

Not all human life is to be treasured, and I really do not understand the mentality that believes your attacker has just as much right to live as you do. As far as I'm concerned, the moment someone decides he is going to hurt me or my loved ones, he has chosen to accept whatever happens to him.

[benEzra]

38. Yes, I can tell.

What makes me tick is that I'm a compassionate adult.

Yes, I can tell, by the way you treat those who disagree with you on anything.

Some of you have watched too many Rambo movies and behave as though, should you be faced with a life and death encounter, would react in exactly the way he did.

What is it with the prohibitionist obsession with Rambo? I think I caught part of one of the Rambo movies while flipping channels when I was a teenager, 20 years ago. It was lame then, and it's lame now. I'll take Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon anyday...

The fact is, you'd probably just shoot yourselves in the foot or not even be able to get to your weapon in time. This isn't seventh grade and we're not playing cops and robbers. Get a grip.

How many decades have you studied and practiced defensive shooting?

I could easily pass both the pistol and rifle quals for the state police of most states, and have been shooting since before some of the 22-year-olds in your state's police academy were born.

I'm not sure why you'd think that a 22-year-old fresh out of the police academy who never shot a gun in his life before six weeks ago would somehow automatically be more competent than people with ten, twenty, or thirty years' more experience and often more formal training?

FWIW, your friends in the ban-more-guns lobby seem to think that many of us non-LEO "civilians" are TOO well trained...you can't have it both ways.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101217.html

(quoted more extensively since the link is now down)

Schools Teach the Hard-Edged Lessons of Combat
Washington Post, Tuesday, May 2, 2006

...

A survey by The Washington Post of schools that advertise on the Internet and in gun magazines located 19 that offer advanced instruction in the skills of combat, with two more such centers planned in New Hampshire and Oklahoma. Of these, only three said that they limited the teaching of advanced skills to military and police clients. One thing shared across the industry was a sense that -- these days more than ever -- people want what they are selling.

...

But these days, the schools have an equally big business in teaching civilians. With customers looking for defensive skills or recreation, the industry buzzword is the same one that puts the T in "SWAT." "This is not a shooting school. It's a school for tactics," meaning the total set of skills useful in actual gunfighting, said Rob Pincus, director of shooting operations at Valhalla.

At many schools, the offerings include "tactical" approaches to personal defense, in which students learn to take on burglars and other assailants in "shoothouses" designed to mimic real life. At Valhalla, there is a fake house, convenience store and barroom where students encounter gun-clutching dummies or live instructors playing armed bad guys. The courses are often intended for people who have permits to carry concealed handguns.

During a recent "Combat Focus Shooting" class, instructor Brad Schuppan sent each student into the shoothouse's fake downtown with a special training handgun -- whose wax-tipped plastic bullets are designed to leave a mark but not injure -- and a set of terse instructions. "Private citizen. Concealed carry. Out and about," he told them, meaning: Don't do anything you wouldn't do in real life.

...

"We're the solution. People have guns. They're always going to have guns," said Heidi Smith, an owner and instructor at Thunder Ranch in Lakeview, Ore. But many schools also provide civilians with training that would seem to have few, if any, applications in everyday life. Thunder Ranch, for instance, offers a class in which two-person teams learn to move and shoot in confined spaces and provide covering fire for each other. One recent class included eight officers from the Los Angeles Police Department and a husband-and-wife pair of junior high school teachers from California, Smith said. At least seven of the 16 schools teach civilians the use of military-style assault weapons...At least six of the schools teach civilians how to fire a rifle accurately over long distances...

Although some schools have even stricter standards, limiting their training only to executive bodyguards or security contractors headed for Iraq or Afghanistan, the most common approach seems to be a combination of background checks and character witnesses.

One voice absent from the debate is the federal government's. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which licenses gun dealers, has no similar monitoring for weapons trainers. State-level oversight is also largely absent, school officials said.

...

Some anti-violence activists and even a few weapons-school officials say that somebody -- a government agency or an industry association -- ought to set out rules for acceptable training and students. "I don't think this should be taught to just anybody off the street," said Richard Weaver of ArmorGroup International PLC, which has camps in Virginia and Texas.

[Turbo Teg]

59. Hmmm

I doubt that is hardley the case, and fortuanatly statistics say other wise. I've been in a violent situation, and when it came down to it, the bad guy took bullets. Also about human life, when it's putting me in jepordy, I give a shit about it. I'll snuff that shit out like a ciggerette if I have to. Rambo, not hardley, this is real life, and bad shit happens to real life people everyday. Be prepared, or be prepared to get fucked, one or the other. Cold hard truth.

[WWFZD]

62. You were playing cops and robbers in the seventh grade?

"This isn't seventh grade and we're not playing cops and robbers. Get a grip."

That might explain the retarded emotional development of someone who is afraid of, and demonizes, an inanimate object.

[Spoonman]

29. In the immortal words of Bill Murray

"Lighten up Francis"

[L1A1Rocker]

34. HaHaHa!!

[beevul]

47. Actually that wasn't Bill Murray...

Actually that wasn't Bill Murray, it was the late Warren Oates as Sergeant Hulka that said those words.



Just sayin.

[krispos42]

32. This is reality

On the rare occasions that a situation turns into a live-or-death struggle for survival, this is the mentality that wins fights.

It's not politically correct and it does not come from, nor breed, high morals or ethics. It's ugly and crude and bloody and violent and base.

And on rare occasions, it's needed because the odds are the person attacking you or yours it also not politically correct, nor of high breeding, morals, or ethics, and is crude and violent and base.

It's ugly. And some people, perhaps many people, can't deal with that ugliness on any level. Which is their right. I suspect you fall into this group.

[sabre73]

46. It is just like the

"some people are sheep, some are wolves, and others are sheep dogs" analogy. Basically we all fall into one of the three types and act accordingly. Sheep have no means to protect themselves from the wolves and we sheep dogs aren't afraid of the wolves so we step in and protect the sheep.

That is a simple version of it.

[krispos42]

49. Well, I'm not a cop, so I guess I'm a sheep...

But this sheep's got come horns!

[sabre73]

50. Actually, and it embarrasses me to say this,

there are far more sheep dogs that are not law enforcement and there are WAY too many sheep that are.

I will have to find the article and post it for y'all.

Let me ask you this: On 9/11 what was your thought process? Did you say "Dear God, what is happening? PLEASE someone HELP US!"

Did you say: "Damn right; crash another plane into a building!"

Or did you say: "Man, I kinda wish that I was on one of those planes, Then maybe I could have made a difference!"

I know that it is an extreme example but, look at at flight 93.... Those passengers used hot coffee and a push cart to fight the wolves! They are what I can only strive to be... Heroes.

I will get the article for you because it tells it better than I can.

[krispos42]

51. Alas, I was not aware of 9/11 until it was all over n/t

[sabre73]

56. I bet that has an interesting story attached to it.

I am still looking for the article. I am pretty sure you (and many others) will enjoy it.

Until then!

[NewMoonTherian]

64. I think this is the article you're after.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/larryb/on%20sheep.htm

I ran across it a year or so ago and it really stuck with me. Some of the nice folks on the pro-control side of the issue may find the tone a little grating, but I'd encourage them to read on. The thought process behind gun control is readily apparent(though in my opinion a little short-sighted), but the pro-RKBA mindset is often misunderstood, and I think some more understanding on both sides can do nothing but help.

[sabre73]

65. Thanks a lot. I am going

to use this as a post and I will give you the credit for supplying it! I have been looking through a bunch of my computer files trying to find it. I owe you one!

[noblesse oblige]

53. silly boy..

..you just shoot 'em. Leave the embalming to the professionals.

[Turbo Teg]

57. That would be sweet.

Anyhow, to the poster, thanks for the read. I enjoyed it.

[gerrilea]

3. Fabulous, Absolutely Fabulous!

May I copy and send it to my sister? She's a federal law inforcement officer...I now know where she got the "hands where I can see them"

[sabre73]

4. Please do.

What Agency does she work for? If you don' mind me asking... We might work with the same department...

[gerrilea]

6. Customs

And thanks,for the permission...

[sabre73]

8. Sweet. Well, I am on the

other side of the "family" with CBP. Got to say that I love the work!

[Irreverend IX]

11. The classic principle for avoiding an attack is to watch for a "move to concealment."

When someone goes for a weapon, they'll usually have to reach into some part of their clothing to get it out, and this "move to concealment" is what law enforcement, etc. are trained to watch for. So whenever you're dealing with potentially hostile individuals, you want to keep them all in your field of view and with their hands clearly visible.

[L1A1Rocker]

16. Yep

police are trained to watch hands. It has been surmised that that is also why so many often, when a cop shoots he/she hits the bad guy in extremities.

They are tough to to shoot center mass BUT they are too busy watching hands when the trigger has to be pulled.

[angrycarpenter]

5. If it is still recognizable as human you have not shot it enough

Most people would be worse than useless in a gun fight. And almost no one will ever actually use the information, except in a video game.

[L1A1Rocker]

15. I think a lot of those are from Elmer Kieth but not all

[sabre73]

17. I believe that you are right.

What a mountain of a man he was. Wish I had paid more attention to his works when he was still alive. I would have not had to learn some things the "hard way".

[chunkstyle5]

18. Actually, the FIRST rule of winning gunfights:

Don't go to gunfights.

[sabre73]

19. Ahhh. Very wise grasshopper....But

What about when the gunfight comes to you?

What then? (Time to kick some but and win I say!)

[sir pball]

20. I think that was actually Rule 23.. n/t

[Gman]

24. Oops, sorry... thought I was in GD: Primaries

sorry!

[east texas lib]

39. Very good post!

Might I humbly add two suggestions?
1. Learn to shoot your handgun with both eyes open. Peripheral acuity is essential
when taking a shot.

2. If your assailant manages to close to arms length ( multiple attackers or the
like), keep them at that distance with your off-side hand. Tuck your gun arm
elbow in hard against your side. Your gun's hammer should be right in front
of your nipple. Then do what you must.


It is, after all, about going home at the end of the day.

[sabre73]

40. Excellent follow through!

Very good points!

[east texas lib]

41. Thank you!

As were yours.

[sabre73]

42. How is it in Terrell?

I Just moved to MT from Laredo, TX. I must say I miss the State but I don't miss Laredo much. I lived in San Antonio before that and I have a small spread over in Boerne, TX.

Yeah, I miss it.

[east texas lib]

43. It's not too bad. I'm out about ten miles east of town...

Out where the meth labs and rural burglary rings are, unfortunately. I work in and
around the Dallas-Fort Worth area. I used to live in Dallas but I wouldn't live
there again for love nor money. The Terrell PD does their best but there are a lot
more bad guys than good guys. Out here the county LEO's and DPS are the good guys.
But as always, one needs to have a close personal relationship with Sam Colt.

[sabre73]

44. Man do I know what you mean!

In Laredo there was a ratio of about 50 criminals to every 1 decent citizen.

The city thrives on Drug and Alien trafficking and all to often, Kidnapping for large ransoms.

I had a Rancher friend who was kidnapped and ransomed but he did not have a lot of money (just his ranch) so they decided it was best to send little pieces of him to his family. He was lucky though. They let him live but he is missing his right hand and some fingers on his left.

This sounds like the movies, I know, But that was how Laredo is governed: Just like Mexico.

That was the straw that broke the camels back. We were out of there that same month and Have not been back since. I always had two guns on my person when I was there as did my wife.

Well glad to be out of their! But I still miss "Real" Texas (as Laredo does not count). :toast:

[noblesse oblige]

52. Nice post. True and informative.

And don't listen to the pathetic little assclowns who lurk and lurk and criticize anyone who dares to speak up and point out that there are times when you really must fight and win.

Excellent post. And remember, the dogs bark but the caravan passes by.

[sabre73]

55. Thanks man! Nice handle too! N/T

[noblesse oblige]

61. Appreciate that and surprised it wasnt taken..

..not many people read Faulkner anymore. I see you're a 9'ers fan. You old enough to remember Montana and those guys? What a team.

[sabre73]

63. Damn straight!

That is where my loyalties where forged for the 9ers! and no, it does not seem to be something the masses are reading these days. Oh well, Their loss.

[Recursion]

60. We had a poster up in our squad bay...

...that said:

"Friendly fire isn't
Suppressive fire won't
Tracers work both ways
His flank is your flank too"

Always liked that.

[Deep13]

66. some responses

"1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns."

If you know about a fight ahead of time, the proper response is to call the police and avoid the fight.

"2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive."

Surviving a gun fight is step #1. Surviving a jury is step #2. They will wonder why you shot twice.

"3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss."

I would rather be missed by a 0.45 than hit by a 0.22.

"4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

"5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)"

Especially in retreat-rule jurisdictions.

"6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun."

See response to number one.

"7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived."

They will also remember who is in prison.

"8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running."

Especially running if possible.

"9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on 'pucker factor' than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. 'All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket.'"

I suggest a Beretta 92FS. Pucker factor? Should we kiss an assailant?

"10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty."

So have a gun made of foam rubber.

"11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

"12. Have a plan.

"13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work."

If you have a plan, that plan should be "avoid a gunfight."

"14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible."

Keep in mind a 0.22 can go right through a car door or a house wall.

"15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours."

And by 'flank' we mean run away and get official help.

"16. Don't drop your guard.

"17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees."

Not just 360 deg. A threat could be above you.

"18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)"

Maybe we need to ban hands. If I could trust god, I wouldn't need a gun.

"19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH."

Understand, that means if you have no other options.

"20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get."

True, most gunfights end after the first hit.

"21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

Um, no.

"22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one."

Again, no, I won't live that way.

"23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."

Sure, why not.

"24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than '4'."

I absolutely disagree. Is the writer suggesting that a 0.40SW has more knock-down power than a 0.357? Both 9mm and 0.38sp. are good defensive calibers.

"25. You can't miss fast enough to win."

It's better to get a direct hit with a 0.22 than wing an assailant with a 0.45. Shot placement and being able to manage recoil are more important that raw power.

[sabre73]

67. You suggest the Beretta 92FS?

I hope that you have tried other guns out there because that is not the piece I would want to use in a defensive situation.

Every one has their preferences but the 92FS? That has got to be one of the most unreliable pistols ever made. The Cuba produced Taurus "knock off" was more reliable.

I think that everyone should definitely consider their sidearm carefully based on their needs though; so If it works for you then that is great. I would just caution you, if that is the only pistol you own or have tried, that they are notorious for "fatal malfunction" at just the right moment.

I owned one for 10 years before I decided to sell it. But I would have felt better if I had just had it melted down instead. I also owned the Beretta 96 brig. .40 and we affectionately referred to it on the force as the "Italian Tomahawk" because it was only good for two things:

1) as a paper weight and

2) to throw at your attacker when the gun failed to function.

And before I am accused of poor maintenance of my sidearm please note that I am a Federal Firearms instructor, a Federal Field Armorer (specializing in the Beretta 96, H&K USP, H&K P2000, SIG SAUER, Remington 870, H&K UMP .40, MP5, and the M4 Carbine) as well as a Gun smith and I never let my guns go bad.

[Deep13]

69. I figured you had a military background.

My understanding is that the 92 has proved to be unreliable in the field because the military was using knock-off magazines which will cause problems especially in harsh environments. I also understand that the factory magazines are reliable. New magazines have a groove running its length to allow sand to run out if any gets in.

I've had a 90two for a while now and it has never malfunctioned. I bought an Inox 92FS a few months ago basically so I would not wear-out the 90two. It did fail to eject once, but it was filthy and I was shooting that aluminum-cased crap. One the other hand I had a Sig 226 DAK that FTF all the time.

The dealer who is a real fanatic who swears by them. With everything in his shop, the gun on his nightstand is a 92. This guy refuses to sell Taurus and a lot of other brands because he doesn't like them. For example, he does not sell Hoppe's #9 because it leaves a varnish or Boresnakes because it is like cleaning with a dirty rag. He does sell Beretta, Sig, SW (especially the revolvers and 1911's, Glock, Kahr when he can get them and Ruger as his budget brand.

I have revolvers including a 6" Python and even a P7 (for sale BTW). I use the 90two because I know my wife can handle it.

Well that's my experience anyway.

Also, are you sure that Taurus was from Cuba? I thought they were from Brazil.

[sabre73]

74. I should have

said Brazil (that is where they are based and manufactured) but Taurus was introduced to the US through Cuba as it was one of the most common pistols (and still is) to be smuggled into the U.S. through our communist neighbors.

And AMEN!! Hoppe's #9 is terrible!

It sounds to me like your choice is based on what works for you and that is best thing when choosing a defensive pistol.

[sabre73]

68. I agree with some of your responses

But I would like to point out that there are a few things you state that are riddled with inaccuracies.

Case in point "I absolutely disagree. Is the writer suggesting that a 0.40SW has more knock-down power than a 0.357? Both 9mm and 0.38sp. are good defensive calibers.".....

A 180 grain .40 does not have the mythological "knock-down power" but it does have better stopping power. The 0.38 is a great "backup gun" But it is not the best defensive round out there by a long shot. And as far as 9mm goes well, the ratio of pass through shots with that round are astronomical when compare to most "defensive ammunition" of larger calibers. Who needs that kind of liability?

Also you say for rule # 7. (In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.): "They will also remember who is in prison."

Just because you are in a shootout does not mean that you go straight to prison (Due Process and all that)

Which leads to the one about shooting twice: "Surviving a gun fight is step #1. Surviving a jury is step #2. They will wonder why you shot twice." That is very true but remember that one shot does not always stop the threat. So you will have to articulate your reasons for your actions...(better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.)



My favorite response of yours is: "Not just 360 deg. A threat could be above you." for rule #17.

You are right on the money! Very sound and logical and it will help one stay alive should they find themselves in such a situation.


But I must close with this when you say: "And by 'flank' we mean run away and get official help."

No... "WE" do not. "Running away" is usually a tactical error in such a situation and should be saved as a last ditch resort. By flank "WE" mean to actually taking him at his 'six' and seizing the tactical advantage; not running away so he can shoot you in the back as you do so. Unless you can run faster than 815 feet per second (for a .45) or faster (for a smaller bullet traveling your way).

And what does "official help" mean? Do you think a thug is going to "time out" until the police arrive? Or is it possible he would think that killing you could eliminate any witnesses?

[Deep13]

70. I only meant within the realm of possibility.

If turning around is going to get you shot, then you can't do it. I only mean if one can withdraw safely. If the options of flanking an assailant or withdrawing are both possible, then one should withdraw. Generally (and this state in particular-Ohio) look at lethal force as a last resort option only. This state requires one to retreat if at all possible. If there is anyway to avoid a gun fight there are two compelling reason to take it: 1. to avoid getting shot, 2. to avoid having to defend yourself to a jury after tens of 1000s of dollars in fees, getting fired, losing your house, getting divorced and being slandered in the media. A city jury might still not believe you and with a big city prosecutor "gunning" for you they will have an excuse to paint you as an aggressor.

Of course the whole "knock-down" thing is a myth. What I really meant was stopping power. I use JHP to avoid pass-through as much as possible. That is acually a reason to favor 0.38sp, though I keep some JHP in +P for that too. I never use +P in automatics because I don't want to beat the crap out of the recoil spring or the aluminum frame. My real back-up model is a 0.380 Cheetah with 13 rd. magazines, nickle finish and walnut grips.

[EricTeri]

71. While I agree it should be a last resort

Making it a legal requirement to withdraw and then forcing people to defend their actions to armchair quarterbacks well after the fact is wrong.

If I have a right to be there, I should not have to defend myself against not just my assailant, but also against an overzealous state prosecutor who wrongly believes the state has a monopoly on self defense.

[Deep13]

72. I agree, but it is a reality anyway. nt

[EricTeri]

73. Not where I live :)

Texas rather encourages criminal ventilation.

[sabre73]

76. I am going to have to disagree with you on that.

I have been in Law Enforcement for over 10 years in Texas and though The laws there are FAR better than most other states you still have to deal with John Sutton and his cronies who love putting the Innocent behind bars for doing what was right.

One of the biggest problems I have run into on the job in Texas is that people often get their legal advise from their friends who "know the law".

My caution to all is this:

The most expensive advise you could ever get is "Free advise" from someone who "knows".

I have seen hundreds of people wrongly prosecuted in Texas for defending themselves from KNOWN criminals. Even though MOST of them were acquitted they were usually left broke, unemployed and possibly even divorced as a result from the LONG and stressful trial.

It is a shame really. You don't ask to be made into a victim then some jerk decides that you should be anyway.... Then you say "sorry pal you chose wrong" and are the "victor instead of the victim" and that should be that....The comes along Mr Sutton and he says "Hey! you should have just rolled over and died!" no he will finish off what the other jerk failed to do....Make you a victim.

[sabre73]

75. Tell me about it!

I was using some +P winchester 230 grain JHP for my Colt defender 1911....Man that gun never had such a beating.

I love my 0.38 and my wife loves hers. We use Federal JHP for those as well.

You are absolutely right about the Jury bit. "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is easy to say but not easy to do. A jury can become putty in the hands of a prosecutor who has an agenda and half of a brain.

That is why I am such a proponent of education in all things. I alway recommend to my students and fellow LOEs to get involved in defensive pistol courses that make courtroom classes apart of the training.

If anyone wants to know where to find legal information/ advise (before you "need" it) the I alway suggest articles and books written by Massad Ayoob. He is an asset to the RKBA movement and he is an "expert witness" for gun trials around the U.S. for both LEOs and private citizens alike.

You can alway read his articles in these Magazines: "Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcment", "Combat HandGuns", or "Guns and Ammo".