Are there any states...

[Traction311]

Where you can buy a handgun, rifle, or shotgun without a gun-permit or any ID at all, such as a driver's license? I live in NYC, with strict gun laws (although not as strict as DC). Two summers ago, I was driving in VA when I stopped at a local Wal-Mart. I was surprised to see that they sold rifel's there, as I had never seen anything like it in the NJ Wal-Mart I've been to. Did they sell these with strict rules for permits, or at least to VA residents only? Or could anyone have bought one, no questions asked, providing they were over 18?

[davepc]

1. You need some sort of ID to pass the Federal back round check (NICS)

But other then that...most states don't have any permit rules for long guns, and many don't have any permitting for handguns.

[gorfle]

2. Not from an FFL...

Where you can buy a handgun, rifle, or shotgun without a gun-permit or any ID at all, such as a driver's license? I live in NYC, with strict gun laws (although not as strict as DC). Two summers ago, I was driving in VA when I stopped at a local Wal-Mart. I was surprised to see that they sold rifel's there, as I had never seen anything like it in the NJ Wal-Mart I've been to. Did they sell these with strict rules for permits, or at least to VA residents only? Or could anyone have bought one, no questions asked, providing they were over 18?

If you buy a firearm from any gun store, including Walmarts that sell them, that store must be an FFL dealer. FFL dealers must perform background checks on all sales and transfers to citizens.

In many states you can buy firearms from private individuals with no background check or other paperwork.

[Traction311]

3. Is this for only handguns?

I could sware I read years ago that in some states, rifles or even semi-auto's (AK-47's, AR-15's, etc.) don't need ANY id at all.

[sergeiAK]

4. You read incorrectly

All firearms (made after 1896), bought from a dealer, require a background check (which requires valid photo ID).

[gorfle]

5. Nope...

All FFL dealers today must perform a NICS background check for all firearm purchases.

[slackmaster]

6. In most states, intrastate private-party transfers of used guns do not require ID

Federally licensed gun dealers (i.e. all lawful dealers) have to do paperwork and the state's implementation of the Brady background check on all sales, except for antiques and muzzle-loaders.

Private-party transfers are regulated in some states, like mine.

However, even where private-party transfers are not regulated it is still a violation of federal law to transfer a firearm to anyone who is probited from owning one.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

36. And That

....... is called a loophole.

[slackmaster]

39. I believe the term loophole cannot reasonably apply here

The federal government simply does not have the power to regulate those transactions.

The term loophole as I understand it typically refers to some kind of deficiency in a law, or a set of circumstances that were not foreseeable when the law was written, that allows people to circumvent the INTENT of the law.

The federal government's power to regulate interstate commerce was never intended to apply to occasional non-commercial sales of used personal items. As the Constitution stands now, there is nothing Congress can do to regulate all private-party transfers.

No loophole.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

43. You Make My Case

You write: 'The term loophole as I understand it typically refers to some kind of deficiency in a law, or a set of circumstances that were not foreseeable when the law was written, that allows people to circumvent the INTENT of the law.'

Agree completely. That's why it's easier for a criminal to buy a gun in a private transaction and circumvent the law than through a dealer without regard to the intentions of either the seller or the dealer.

[slackmaster]

44. There is no federal law regulating private intrastate transfers

So how can there be a "loophole" in it?

...That's why it's easier for a criminal to buy a gun in a private transaction and circumvent the law...

Circumvent WHAT law?

:crazy:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

46. Enforcement?

Are you really telling me that there is enforcement in place to insure that every private gun seller always sells to someone in their own state?


:crazy:

[slackmaster]

48. Just as with most laws,

Compliance with gun laws related to private-party transfers is largely voluntary. An honor system that most people abide by.

I don't know how you could change that.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

49. In Other Words

..... loop hole.

As for how to change that, start by requiring back ground checks.

[slackmaster]

50. In a state where private-party transfers are unregulated,

How is a person selling a gun to someone else without regulation a "loophole"?

To have a loophole, you have to have a LAW. No law, no LOOPHOLE. Those are the rules.

HAS THE WHOLE WORLD GONE CRAZY? AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE RULES ANY MORE?

;-)

[fightthegoodfightnow]

51. Right

...... and now you are actually claiming that most states do not have laws requiring an ID to sell to a private individual?

You ask: 'AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE RULES ANY MORE?'

The 'rules'? LOL. I'll let you know when the half million people in DC have some participation in your 'rules'.

[slackmaster]

52. There you go again with the "poor disenfranchised me" routine

...and now you are actually claiming that most states do not have laws requiring an ID to sell to a private individual?

Licensed gun dealers have to do the full background check and paperwork dance on all sales.

In most states, private individuals can sell used guns to other private individuals without regulation BECAUSE THERE IS NO LAW REGULATING THOSE SALES.

No law -> No loophole.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

53. Nonsense

You write: 'In most states, private individuals can sell used guns to other private individuals without regulation BECAUSE THERE IS NO LAW REGULATING THOSE SALES.'

That's simply not true. There are, in most states, laws regulating those sales and the fact that you are unwilling to acknowledge that fact is simply ..... well......... stupid. Many, if not most, states criminalize selling a gun to a felon.

Even assuming your statement is true, leave it to you to equate a law enacted for the public safety and reducing the risk of felons getting a gun by requiring an ID for a gun transaction with a gun dealer and not for private citizens as NOT being a loop hole.

Looney tunes on DU.

[slackmaster]

55. OK, the federal prohibition against selling to convicted felons, etc. does apply

But most states do not have any of their own laws to control private party intrastate sales. Because the federal law DOES apply, there is no "loophole". Bear in mind that the federal background check system is by design not available to unlicensed people.

Is there an enforcement problem? Sure, but that is not the same thing as a loophole.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

56. Federal Law Regulates Intrastate Sales

Really. Hhhmmm.

Thanks for acknowledging that enforcement is a problem. Any suggestions on how that can change?

[slackmaster]

57. Sure, a short version of my main points

1. Make NICS available for private party transfers. Charge a reasonable fee, and include safeguards against having it misused e.g. by landlords or employers.

2. Grant immunity from prosecution for any private party who uses a NICS check to verify a gun transfer in which the recipient subsequently turns out to have been a prohibited person (and did not get flagged by NICS for whatever reason).

3. Aggressively prosecute people who transfer firearms to prohibited persons, especially when the buyer subsequently uses the gun in a crime. Availability of NICS to the general public would eliminate "arms length" transaction excuses.

4. Beef up the ingestion of disqualifying events into NICS, particularly mental health adjudications.

The federal government could not compel private sellers to use NICS, but states could (and I am sure some would). The immunity in item 2 would provide an incentive for private sellers to use it when they are not absolutely sure about the person they are selling to.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

58. Agree

........ on at least three of the four.

[Boomer 50]

9. You read the Brady Bunch BS

They keep trying to convince the public that anyone can buy a semi-auto, high capacity, pistol gripped, high power, machine gun without a single background check. As usual, it's total bunk.

[virginia mountainman]

7. In Virginia..

To buy from an Gun Dealer (FFL)...

You need to have 2 forms of ID, one of which must be a government issued photo id....

Their is NO registration, NO licensing.... Their is a paper trail, leading from the firearms serial number, From its manufacturer/importer, to wholesaler, to FFL dealer, to individual....This exists for ALL states.

This suffices for gun traces....

Their is NO gun show loophole, the same rules apply their, to by from a gun dealer.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

35. Loophole

There is a paper trail in Virginia for private transactions?

[slackmaster]

40. Not a loophole

The state of Virginia has never intended to regulate private-party transfers.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

42. Intended?

Now you claim to know what was 'intended'?

Bottom line is the effectiveness of their laws is called into question when the law can be circumvented.

[slackmaster]

45. Virginia has been a state far longer than most others

Don't you think that if they wanted to regulate private gun sales they would have done so by now?

Bottom line is the effectiveness of their laws is called into question when the law can be circumvented.

What law are you referring to?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

47. Good Point

Virginia doesn't have any gun laws.


:sarcasm:

[Boomer 50]

62. Yep, it was intended.

Not only on the state level but the Federal Level as well. I suggest you read the Congressional transcripts of the debate on the 1968 Gun Control Act. That is where you'll find the discussion on prohibiting private transfers of firearms. You'll also find the reason they didn't and why it won't happen today without grave risk to how the Federal Government operates and how it will effect the lives of every person in the nation. (Hint: It goes far beyond the gun issue)

So, it's not a loophole and never was one. The only way to make all firearms transfers recorded and approved is to make a national database and that will not happen. First of all, there will be a general revolt if it is passed. Secondly, it will be rendered absolutely useless by false registrations and finally, the United States Government cannot afford to maintain such a database. Hell, they can't even maintain the NFRTR database with anything over 50% accuracy with only a million or so NFA items in it. How in the world do you think they'll be able to maintain a database with over a quarter of a billion firearms in it? It won't happen.

[benEzra]

8. No, to buy a gun at Wal-Mart (or from any other gun dealer), you have to present ID,

pass a Federal background check, and fill out paperwork (BATFE Form 4473) that allows the Federal government to trace that gun to you if it is ever used in a crime. Here in NC, you also have to have a purchase permit from the sheriff's office to purchase a handgun (whether from a dealer or from a private individual), but this is not necessary for rifles and shotguns. You must be 18 (21 for handguns), have a clean record (no felony convictions, or even misdemneanor convictions if the crime was domestic violence), cannot be a user of illegal drugs, and cannot be subject to a restraining order.

It's wierd to me that your Wal-Marts don't carry guns...

Back in the late '80s/early '90s, Wal-Mart carried handguns and modern-looking rifles (so-called "assault weapons"), but now they mostly stock 19th-century-style rifles (Mauser and Winchester pattern) and shotguns. I almost bought a civilian AK at Wal-Mart in 1989 or 1990, but decided to buy a Ruger Mini-14 instead (in retrospect, a poor choice, as the AK would have been a great investment and probably would have been more accurate). My wife and I still buy a lot of ammunition there (their Winchester target stuff is cheap, and is probably one of the few things in the store made in the USA).

[fightthegoodfightnow]

76. Wal-Mart is Notorious for Selling Guns Illegally

Wal-Mart is notorious for selling guns illegally.

From the Wall Street Journal
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114502845796126154-jcrkfu5PX8z0BQRHMo7IhpzeqCQ_20070415.html?mod=blogs

Wal-Mart to Stop Selling
Firearms in Some Stores
By ANN ZIMMERMAN
April 15, 2006
Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the biggest seller of firearms in the country, said it is discontinuing sales of guns in about 1,000 U.S. stores due to insufficient demand, part of an effort to boost sluggish sales by better matching store merchandise to individual neighborhoods.

The Bentonville, Ark., retailer wouldn't say which stores would stop selling guns and whether sales at those stores had fallen off recently or had always been substandard. The company said the move to stop selling guns at what amounts to about a third of its U.S. stores is part of Wal-Mart's larger effort to improve its "store of the community" program that tailors store products to neighborhood demand.

"If demand is not there for an item, we stop selling it," said Karen Burk, a Wal-Mart spokeswoman.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER IN THE ARTICLE

In 2003, it stopped selling all guns in California, after the state found thousands of violations of gun laws -- including sales of guns to felons -- at Wal-Mart stores over the previous three years. Wal-Mart paid $14.5 million to settle a state lawsuit stemming from the violations.

That's right: thousands of violations in ONE state.

[Major Hogwash]

10. Go to a gun show

They don't check ID's at gun shows.

[sergeiAK]

11. Yeah, they do. -nt

[Major Hogwash]

18. No, in fact, they don't. Not here.

The biggest problem we have here is all the fucking guns that are sold at gunshows with absolutely NO regulations whatsoever.

See post #6.

[EricTeri]

59. BULLSHIT

You said "The biggest problem we have here is all the fucking guns that are sold at gunshows with absolutely NO regulations whatsoever."

That, my friend, is a HUGELY blatant lie and you know it.

Either that, or if you have proof of this and did NOT report it to the BATFE, you are personally complicit in a conspiracy to violate federal firearms laws.

[bossy22]

12. i was at a gun show on saturday

i bought a gun- they checked my ID and Ran a PICS check on me....seemed no different from when i bought at a store....guess i must have not gone to a "gun show"

[iverglas]

14. silly you

You went to a gun show, but you didn't go the right place at the gun show. Or a gun show in the right place.

I'll bet you didn't even know that (as long as you were in, what is it, 1 of 32 states?) you could have bought any gun that someone wanted to sell you there without so much as opening your mouth or putting pen to paper, as long as the someone you were buying it from didn't have a licence to deal in firearms.

I'll bet you've never heard that. I know how odd it sounds, but there you are.

Aren't you glad there are people who know things you don't know? Or at least bring them back to your attention when you seem to have, er, forgotten them.

[Major Hogwash]

19. Not here you didn't.

They might have checked your ID in New York, but they don't check ID's at the door, during, or even after the sale here.

[liberal4truth]

64. the illegal loophole gun sales are arrianged for a later date away from the gun show and the police

that's why the gun nuts get away making deals selling guns to each other and even felons.The gun show is just a place to meet up with fellow gun loons.

[EricTeri]

67. What "loophole" would that be? N/T

[liberal4truth]

68. The loophole that allows for private sale and/or "gifting" of firearms without

a background check, that's what.

[slackmaster]

70. For every loophole there is an underlying law

Please specify which law you are referring to, and describe how the law could lawfully be changed to address the loophole.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

77. Good Grief

Is this really the game you folks play.

Gun sales are regulated. The law that exempts private sale and/or "gifting" of firearms without a background check, that's what.

Typical denial.

Say "There is NO loop holes' enough times and hope people believe that sh*t.

[slackmaster]

84. You fail massively

Gun sales are regulated....

No, sales of guns by federally licensed gun dealers are regulated. Federal law requires all people who deal in guns to have a federal firearms license. The federal government has no authority to regulate intrastate sales of used guns by unlicensed people. Please review the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

...The law that exempts private sale and/or "gifting" of firearms without a background check, that's what.

If there was a law that says "...except private sales or gifts" you might have a point. But because the federal government only has authority over its licensees there is no federal law concerning private sales or transfers of used guns, therefore there is no loophole.

[Tejas]

13. Been to Darra eh? Did you buy an AK? n/t

[Major Hogwash]

21. If I asked to see your ID to sell you a dog, would you show me your ID?

Same rules apply to private sales of guns here, son.

See post #6 above.

[Tejas]

22. Pretty vague generality you have there

But, in your scenario, are we both private citizens? If so, then you are not _required_ by Federal Law to ask me for ID.

However, in the case of a handgun, you need to make sure I'm a resident of your state and 21yrs of age. In that case, asking for ID should be acceptable to any buyer.

[Major Hogwash]

27. Hahahahahahaha! Hey, wake up and smell the coffee, dude! I am not Homeland Security!

You're making this stuff up, right?
Must be, because you don't know squid about what you are chewing on!

As a private citizen, I don't have to do squat to make sure of anything - except make sure that you got the money for the gun I'm selling!!
And make that CASH, by the way!

Hahahahahahaha.

I'm not required by any Federal laws, state laws, county laws, or any city ordinaces to do anything such thing.

When I sold dogs, AKC registered dogs, I never asked for ID, either.
Some of my dogs were the best hunting dogs in the area.
I only had a few dogs, but I sold their pups for almost 10 years.

And guess what, I don't have to check ID's when I sell my car, potted plants, dirt, rose bushes, hold a garage sale, or anything like that either.

[Tejas]

29. Sell a pistol to an undercover 19yr old and get back to me

Sure, you're not "required" by law to check for underage or same-state residency on a handgun sale, but if it crosses your mind then it might be a good idea to do so.

[Major Hogwash]

31. I beat ya like a rented mule.

I don't have to prove anyone is 21 to buy a gun, Deputy dawg!

[Tejas]

66. Prisons are full of know-it-alls, let us know how it works out n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

71. Actually

Prisons are full of people who used GUNS in violent crimes despite the aid and comfort they get from the gun lobby.

[Tejas]

72. typical Bradyism - you steal that from Canada?

Those people you speak of are coddled by anti-gun loons. The same loons who would rather harass/shackle/demean law-abiding citizens instead of meeting the problem of existing/habitual criminals head-on.

Yes, criminals love the anti-gun crowd.

They love breaking into anti-gunner's houses,
stealing their cars,
raping their daughters,
beating their grandmothers sensless on the street...........

[fightthegoodfightnow]

75. See Post 74

But alas, thanks for the gratuitous throwing in of the Brady bunch. If we are back to throwing in the Brady bunch because you think it makes your case, let's throw the NRA back into the mix.

Criminals have lobbyists and they are called the NRA.

They lobby easy access to guns. It keeps the price low.
They lobby against the calls for no waiting periods. It means they don't have to wait around.
They lobby for confusion in the law. It insures chaos.
They lobby for no laws regarding guns. It means fewer charges against them.

[Tejas]

81. Then "they" have you fooled

and there's nothing that anyone can do about that.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

83. Yawn..........

Are you their spokesperson now?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

78. If It's a Good Idea

....... it'll make for good law.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

37. Right......

......... and that always happens.

Not.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

61. If I really wanted that dog, then yeah

you can see my ID. It's just part of your deal. Your dog, your rules.

When I sell a gun privately, I always get the buyer's info from his driver license and keep it in a folder. I don't run a background check, as I'm not a dealer. So far, none of the info has gone anywhere.

If I'm selling a gun to you and you don't want to show me ID, that's fine, no sale, no hard feelings.

[krispos42]

15. Who is the "they" you are referring to?

Or, in case I'm in a grammar pit...

"Whom is the "they" you are referring to?"



<sigh> I never got that whole "who" vs. "whom" thing down...

[iverglas]

16. allow me

Who are the "they" to whom you are referring?

It's the ending of sentences with prepositions we have to work on.

[krispos42]

17. *facepalm*

Thanks. I'm better at math and geometry.

[iverglas]

25. obviously better at math and geometry ;)

You missed the preposition that my sentence ended with. ;)

It's so hard to get proper appreciation for a good grammar joke ...

[krispos42]

32. ????

<looks up 'preposition' on Wikipedia>

*groan*

:rofl:


That rule must have been one of the very many that my glazed eyes did not absorb in elementry school.


Fortunately it's not my habit of speaking, so I think I'm safe there...

:hide:

[Major Hogwash]

20. The people running the gun show. The people making the sales at the gun show,

Your reading comprehension skills all of a sudden take a nosedive or what?

Here, they don't ask for ID at the door, before, during, or after the sale.

Gun dealers do, they have to.

But most of the guns being sold at the gun shows here aren't through licensed dealers, they're private citizens.

See post #6.

[Tejas]

23. Does Gander Mountain ask for ID at the door?

"Here, they don't ask for ID at the door, before, during, or after the sale."

I should hope not, be a shame if you want to walk into a gunshow just to look around but "have to show ID at the door".


YIKES!

[gorfle]

30. Really?

But most of the guns being sold at the gun shows here aren't through licensed dealers, they're private citizens.

Really? I'm surprised. How can you tell? I've probably been to some 15 gun shows over the years and I can only recall one or two times I saw a guy strolling the isles with a rifle over his shoulder with a flag-sign sticking out of the barrel that said "for sale".

Do they have a big common area or something at your shows where people can gather and talk swap/sale?

[krispos42]

33. Why would they ID everybody?

If they aren't buying guns?



I just wanted to make sure, however, that you knew that the background check thing depends on the status of the seller, not the geographic location of the point of sale.


And most of the guns being sold at a gun show are by licensed dealers. They fill the place up!

[mickeyman]

24. Gun shows

I only have experience with gun shows in Arizona, Nevada and California.

No, they do not check ID at the door. If you buy a gun, there is a table set up by a licensed FFL dealer to handle the paperwork. You may try to bypass this by making an illegal deal with a private party, but be aware that the place is crawling with undercover police trying to trap someone doing just that. The vendors know this and are not stupid. If you try to offer them a lot of money to make an illegal sale, then they KNOW you are a cop.

If you want to buy a gun without showing ID, you can get a black powder gun. These are not regulated by federal law ( some states such as Michigan do regulate them) You can send them in the mail (without the powder) as regular merchandise.

[iverglas]

26. query

Now never mind the secondary source, if the information is accurate:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?page=second

Thus far, fifteen states have closed the gun show loophole and require background checks for all sales at gun shows or require some version of a firearm owner identification card to purchase a gun at a gun show.(16)

(16) California, Colorado, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa (handguns only), Maryland (handguns and assault weapons only), Massachusetts, Michigan (handguns only), New Jersey, New York, North Carolina (handguns only), Oregon, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island.

(where "gun show loophole" means that persons other than licensed firearms dealers may make sales at gun shows without any background check being done on the purchaser)

You mention your experience in Arizona, Nevada and California.

It seems that only California requires background checks for private / non-FFL dealer sales at gun shows.

What authority would the police have to intervene in a private sale at a gun show in a state where no background check is required? If an undercover police officer succeeded in making a purchase from a private, non-FFL seller without a background check being done, what offence would the seller have committed?

If sales at a gun show are required to go through a licensed dealer for a background check, in a state where this is not required by the law, is this maybe a condition placed by the show organizer on private sellers who wish to make sales at the show?

[slackmaster]

28. Good questions

It seems that only California requires background checks for private / non-FFL dealer sales at gun shows.

California requires background checks for ALL private-party transfers regardless of where they occur. The only exception is for curio or relic long guns transferred between private parties.

What authority would the police have to intervene in a private sale at a gun show in a state where no background check is required?...

If they knew that the buyer was a member of a prohibited class (e.g. convicted felon), the sale would be illegal and they could intervene. Or, if they were investigating the seller as a suspect for dealing in guns without the required licenses.

If an undercover police officer succeeded in making a purchase from a private, non-FFL seller without a background check being done, what offence would the seller have committed?

Two possibilities I can think of: That the seller is unlawfully engaging in a business of dealing firearms without a license, or if the undercover officer is prohibited from owning firearms.

If sales at a gun show are required to go through a licensed dealer for a background check, in a state where this is not required by the law, is this maybe a condition placed by the show organizer on private sellers who wish to make sales at the show?

That is very likely to be the case somewhere. Show organizers are motivated not to allow their shows to become venues for potentially illegal transactions. Exhibitors and sellers pay money to be part of the show, so they too do not want competition from freeloaders.

[MaryCeleste]

34. CA requries any FFL transaction to have a backgroung check

It used to allow private party sales without them (not just at gun shows) but no longer.

[slackmaster]

38. C&R long gun transfers between unlicensed people are still OK in CA

I just did one - Bought a C&R rifle from a friend. I have a C&R FFL but did not need to use it for that transaction.

[MaryCeleste]

54. Roger that, C&R tends to be off of my scan

My father-in-law gave a few firearms to my daughter and they had to go through the FFL in CA

[benEzra]

41. Most sales at gunshows are dealer sales, and require ID and background checks.

95% or more of sales at gun shows are sales from licensed dealers, and ID and a background check are most certainly required at those.

[iverglas]

60. you'd better watch out

I can name a couple of people who will be here any minute now, demanding that you provide proof of that "statistic".

I'd be interested in a bit myself.

Of course, I'd also say: So the fuck what?

Obviously, if 95% of sales at gun shows involve background checks and ID, 5% don't. Nobody's talking about the alleged 95%.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

63. Good Point

Who cares if only 5% of all shots results in killing someone?

Such is your logic.

[benEzra]

65. My point is, the characterization of gun shows as magical places

where Federal gun laws do not apply, where you can go and find tables of guns that can be purchased without passing an NICS background check and filling out a BATFE Form 4473, is an erroneous one, but a lot of people on your side of the issue seem to feel that telling the truth about the gun-show issue somehow isn't politically motivating enough. I said 95% only because that figure is so low as to be noncontroversial; the rate is probably in excess if 99%, but that would require quite a bit of work to get the data.

FWIW, here in NC, *all* handgun sales at a gun show involve a background check, even private sales (because all private handgun sales require the buyer to obtain a purchase permit for a nominal fee). Our local sheriff's department sets up a table at gun shows to run background checks for people at the show. If safeguards were set up to prevent abuse (NC's system is abused by some sheriffs, unfortunately), I could see such a system being broadly accepted. The Bradyites seem far too interested in shutting down gun shows and demonizing the "gun culture" to consider an approach like that, though.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

69. Good for North Carolina

Too bad other States don't follow suit.

The truth is many on your side of the argument would take objection to background checks on ALL sales, including private sales. The NRA seems far too interested in aiding terrorists and worshipping the "gun culture" to consider an approach like that, though.

[Tejas]

73. the NRA has nothing to do with it

but as usual, you can't help but inject it in your rhetoric. If you feel it gives weight to your argument then by all means, mention the NRA every other sentence. Otherwise, try dealing with the truth of 4 million NRA members versus 80 million gun owners.

If the NRA is so powerful, so good for the gunowner, so adept at swaying gunowner's views/opinions, then why so few members?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

74. And Neither Does Bradyites

Thanks for making MY point.

Please see the original post I was responding to where you can clearly see I was using his words and substituting the NRA for the Bradyites.

He wrote: 'The Bradyites seem far too interested in shutting down gun shows and demonizing the "gun culture" to consider an approach like that, though."

I responded: 'The NRA seems far too interested in aiding terrorists and worshipping the "gun culture" to consider an approach like that, though.

Too bad you missed the sarcastic point, so let me try to make it again

The Brady organization has nothing to do with it, but as usual, you can't help but inject it in your rhetoric. If you feel it gives aide to your arguments then by all means, mention the Brady every other sentence. Otherwise, try dealing with the truth that of the 250 Americans, most of the anti-gun movement belongs no more to the Brady organization than gun owners belong to the NRA.

GET IT NOW?

[Tejas]

80. You've quoted them word-for-word in the past = fail = try again n/t

[fightthegoodfightnow]

82. Citation Please

Oh........... nevermind............. it's what one can expect from you.

He wrote: 'The Bradyites seem far too interested in shutting down gun shows and demonizing the "gun culture" to consider an approach like that, though."

I responded: 'The NRA seems far too interested in aiding terrorists and worshipping the "gun culture" to consider an approach like that, though.

Too bad you missed the sarcastic point, so let me try to make it again

The Brady organization has nothing to do with it, but as usual, you can't help but inject it in your rhetoric. If you feel it gives aide to your arguments then by all means, mention the Brady every other sentence. Otherwise, try dealing with the truth that of the 250 Americans, most of the anti-gun movement belongs no more to the Brady organization than gun owners belong to the NRA.

GET IT NOW?

[benEzra]

79. Do you see the NRA fighting to repeal the point-of-sale background check? No.

As I said, in a political climate in which lawful gun ownership was NOT under the kind of constant attacks that it has been in the last couple of decades, background checks on all sales would IMHO be feasible, as long as safeguards (criminal penalties) were in place to prevent registration and other abuse.

BTW, what precisely are you talking about with the "aiding terrorists" remark? Opposing Bushco's attempt to automatically revoke the gun rights of anyone they put on their secret blacklists? If such opposition is "helping terrorists," then put me in that camp as well. Due process is a cornerstones of our legal system, and sacrificing it to score cheap rhetorical points would hardly be progress. (Do you consider the ACLU to be "aiding terrorists" for also opposing the secret blacklists?)