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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 06:44 PM
Original message
Dellinger for D.C. & gun-grabbers says people can have loaded weapon ready for self-defense
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 06:47 PM by jody
TRANSCRIPTS OF ORAL ARGUMENT in DC v. HELLER

MR. DELLINGER: That is not the city's position, and we have no dispute with the other side on the point of what the right answer should be.

It is a universal or near universal rule of criminal law that there is a self-defense exception. It goes without saying. We have no argument whatsoever with the notion that you may load and have a weapon ready when you need to use it for self- defense.

I don’t see how D.C. and the gun-grabber community can possibly expect to win with arguments as presented by Dellinger?

850,000 sworn law enforcement officers choose a handgun for self-defense because they are the most effective, efficient tool for that task.

That's also why law-abiding citizens choose handguns for self-defense.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. I hope D.C. loses
If the court rules for D.C. it will galvanize the gun-owners for November. Besides, D.C. makes a very weak argument.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. jody, you have quoted the statement with no context whatsoever.
If this case is to be understood, context must be clear.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I gave a link to the draft transcript of today's arguments before SCOTUS re DC v Heller. Please read
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I listened to the 2nd half of the argument,
and searched through the transcript. About where is it?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Mea culpa, page 24 at the link I gave in the OP. n/t
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks, jody.
Will check it out.

Were you able to listen to the argument? I'll try to hear the whole thing some time; c-span radio will probably rerun it several times.

And for everyone's interest, its great to hear serious and thorough discussions of important issues of the day at the Court.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I listened to part of the audio but when I located a draft transcript, I began reading it so I could
savor particular points made by a justice.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. it's Jeopardy
jody/Alex gives you the answer:
That is not the city's position, and we have no dispute with the other side on the point of what the right answer should be.


And the question is:
JUSTICE ALITO: But even if you have -- even if you have a rifle or a shotgun in your home, doesn't the code prevent you from loading it and unlocking it except when it's being used for lawful, recreational purposes within the District of Columbia? So even if you have the gun, under this code provision it doesn't seem as if you could use it for the defense of your home.


You can't be convicted of murder if you defended yourself against a marauding homicidal maniac by throwing your pet rattlesnake at him/her, either.

Doesn't actually mean that a city has to permit the keeping of rattlesnakes within its limits.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. oh -- the point being


jody:
Dellinger for D.C. & gun-grabbers says people can have loaded weapon ready for self-defense

Dellinger:
It is a universal or near universal rule of criminal law that there is a self-defense exception. It goes without saying. We have no argument whatsoever with the notion that you may load and have a weapon ready when you need to use it for self- defense.

Conclusion: jody's characterization of what Dellinger said was false.


For greater clarity:

(a) people can have loaded weapon ready for self-defense

(b) you may load and have a weapon ready when you need to use it for self- defense

The bit missing from jody's, er, paraphrase may be apparent.


Self-defence is an exception to the rule against homicide. It is not an exception to a rule against keeping an unsecured / loaded firearm, or rattlesnake, in one's home.

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. D.C.'s gun laws effectively disarmed citizens. Maybe Dellinger was unaware...
The D.C. law banned handguns. The law also only allowed long guns if they were equipped with a trigger lock and/or disassembled. This effectively (and rather clinically) disarms a citizen facing a home invasion in his or her own home.

Dellinger is either unaware of the law he defends or he is engaging in the worst kind of subterfuge.
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WWFZD Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. If the common means of defense of self
and state is the aimed heaving of fanged poisonous reptiles at a criminal adversary or a usurper was in common practice at the time - then and now - then no, a particular jurisdiction cannot prohibit the possession and use of said serpent.
The Supreme Court deals in plain language, not linguistic and semantic masturbation.
But by all means, continue to perch up in Canada and lob spitballs at the SCOTUS rulings to your hearts content. The ruling soon to be handed down will overturn most current gun control legislation.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. snork snork

But by all means, continue to perch up in Canada and lob spitballs at the SCOTUS rulings to your hearts content. The ruling soon to be handed down will overturn most current gun control legislation.

Actually, I expect it will return the matter to the lower court, with directions.

But hey, why would I be surprised at anything the guys who made George W. Bush king might get up to??


But by all means, continue to perch up in Canada and lob spitballs at the SCOTUS rulings to your hearts content.

Friend, you project.

I send hearts and flowers and tea and sympathy to ye who must live under the thumb of such scum.



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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. and speaking of "linguistic and semantic masturbation"

-- all I can say is:

common means of defense of self and state

By which I mean: I can't say anything at all, because you win that contest and I concede willingly.

Now, if you'd thrown in a "citizen" and a "We the People", I would have not just conceded, but awarded you both ears and the tail.

E Plebnista!

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fightthegoodfightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Wet Dreams
Edited on Thu Mar-20-08 08:36 PM by fightthegoodfightnow
You write: 'But by all means, continue to perch up in Canada and lob spitballs at the SCOTUS rulings to your hearts content. The ruling soon to be handed down will overturn most current gun control legislation.'

Based on what?

Anyone who knows anything about SCOTUS, no matter what the issue, knows they generally make a very narrow ruling on a specific issue and contrary to your judicial activist interpretation of their role, they are highly unlikely to overturn all 'current gun control legislation' since the issue at hand -- DC's gun law -- neither involves all gun control legislation nor all laws outside of DC.

It's far more likely they will send the case back to the lower court to make a much clearer and narrower ruling. Both sides acknowledge the lower court ruling, without regards to the merits of their position, was poorly written and far broader in scope than necessary or appropriate.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. I loved it (read sarcasm) when one of the people against the DC ban said...
to reporters that every knows that a well armed citizenry is a more polite citizenry.

Sure, those that aren't dead!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. they all read Robert Heinlein in their youth


and then moved on to Ayn Rand. Well, if they could read words that big.

I read a lot of Heinlein myself, 'cause his kiddie books were fun; just managed not to drink his right-wing, macho elixir. Ayn Rand just wasn't even fun.

If you google something like

heinlein armed society polite

you'll see where the fan base lies. Third from the top of my results list is The Place That Shall Not Be Named.

The fans were out to cheer on their other heroes -- Roberts, Alito, Kennedy, Scalia and Thomas JJ. ... paragons in the struggle for rights and democracy all.

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. He just blew existing D.C. law out of the water--that's currently a felony
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 08:36 PM by benEzra
in the District, even inside your own bedroom with the doors locked and you think there is someone trying to get in the house. There is no self-defense exception in the D.C. law whatsoever.

Now, it is possible that a prosecutor might decline to charge you if someone actually broke in and you managed to get your gun unlocked and/or assembled, and had time to load it and use it (very unlikely). But if it's a false alarm and someone spots you with that gun through your window, you could be charged with a felony.

But the point of the law is to make self-defense impossible. If your gun isn't already assembled and loaded, and in some sort of quick-access safe or on your person, it's about as useless against an intruder as a paperweight under most scenarios that I can see, which is precisely the intent. A "self defense exception" that only applies if you assemble and load the gun after perceiving a home invasion pretty much eliminates the possibility of self-defense, unless you choose to break the law and keep the gun loaded and relatively accessible to you.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. ring around a rosie
I'll give it to you straight again, so you have a chance to get out of that apparently uncontrollable spin.



JUSTICE ALITO: But even if you have -- even if you have a rifle or a shotgun in your home, doesn't the code prevent you from loading it and unlocking it except when it's being used for lawful, recreational purposes within the District of Columbia? So even if you have the gun, under this code provision it doesn't seem as if you could use it for the defense of your home.

MR. DELLINGER: That is not the city's position, and we have no dispute with the other side on the point of what the right answer should be.

It is a universal or near universal rule of criminal law that there is a self-defense exception. It goes without saying. We have no argument whatsoever with the notion that you may load and have a weapon ready when you need to use it for self-defense.



Self-defence is not an excuse/justification for ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF A FIREARM anywhere, anytime, anyhow. Self-defence is an excuse/justification for assault.

So really, really obviously there is no self-defense exception in the D.C. law AS THE LAW RELATES TO FIREARM POSSESSION.

Now, if you want to say there is no self-defence excuse/justification to an assault charge in DC, you go right ahead. I'll laugh.


"You may load and have a weapon ready when you need to use it for self-defense." You will be in a position to present a self-defence excuse/justification to answer a charge of assault (of whatever degree, up to and including homicide).

There is no "self-defence" exception to the charge of unlawful possession of a firearm any more than there is to a charge of insider trading.

And Dellinger didn't say there was, much as it seems you might want to pretend he did.



Here's my fave bit so far:


MR. DELLINGER: That is not the discourse that is part of the Second Amendment. And when you read the debates, the congressional debates, the only use of the phrase "keep and bear arms" is a military phrase, and -

JUSTICE SCALIA: Blackstone thought it was important. Blackstone thought it was important. He thought the right of self-defense was inherent, and the framers were devoted to Blackstone. Joseph Story, the first commentator on the Constitution and a member of this Court, thought it was a personal guarantee.

MR. DELLINGER: When Blackstone speaks of the personal guarantee, he describes it as one of the use of weapons, a common law right. And if we're constitutionalizing the Blackstonian common law right, he speaks of a right that is subject to due restrictions and applies to, quote "such weapons, such as are allowed by law." So Blackstone builds in the kind of reasonableness of the regulation that the District of Columbia has. Now, the -

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, that may be true, ...


Yeah, John boy, it just may be true.


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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. One wonders then...
One wonders then why our second amendment doesn't read:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms such as allowed by law, shall not be infringed.

I wonder why they didn't say that?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. me too!
I always wonder why it didn't do what it did in the first amendment to your Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, except where there is a clear and present danger, and except in the case of a threat to kill the head of state, and except in the case of a criminal conspiracy, and except in the case of an attempt to sell snake oil as a cure for cancer, and except in the case of physicians providing abortion services to women and the women seeking such services, and except in the case of lies told under oath, and we'll let you know if we come up with any more; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, except when we don't want to have to look at them, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Why didn't those guys just say what they meant and mean what they said???


Of course, I wonder why you didn't try reading what was said in today's case, and addressing that.

If you're going to worship the graven idols of old dead white guys and their words, you need to pay attention to what they really said. If they were forever citing Blackstone as their authority/hero, then you need to acknowledge what Blackstone said, and address the question of what the old dead white guys meant when they said the same things having regard to all that.



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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Or instead...
They didn't need to be so verbose as you did in your attempt at snideness.

Why didn't they say,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press such as allowed by law; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Perhaps they did say what they meant and meant what they said?

Of course, I wonder why you didn't try reading what was said in today's case, and addressing that.

I have no doubt that the founding fathers were influenced heavily by many things, including Blackstone. But they did not copy these influences verbatim, but rather they took them and redacted them into something new and unique.

There is no doubt from reading contemporary historical documents regarding the thoughts of founders what they intended. They intended a decentralized military system, composed of state-sponsored militias, made up of people of those states and lead by officers of those states, as a counter to federal military power. There is also substantial writings to indicate that they felt the people should also be armed for personal defense of life and liberty as well, but I agree with the arguments yesterday that it was primarily in a militia context.




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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. an age-old question


The one of what limitations on the exercise of rights are permissible, that is. And how that is to be determined. And permissible in whose mind, and how that is to be determined. This is why people invent gods, and then pretend to know what the gods want. First principles: something engraved in stone that tells us what to do. Sadly, we don't have any. So we get popes and monarchs and philosophers, and infallible dogmas and divine rights and categorical imperatives.

Your suggestion:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press such as allowed by law; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

ends up creating a perfect circle. A constitution that allows itself to be overridden by a law. Not dissing it -- using it as an example of the problem. From yours, we move on to what the Canadian constitution actually does say, right in section 1:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

See what I mean?? You try to tighten it up, and the spiral gets smaller, but there's still a circle. This, but that. But not this. Except if that. And ultimately you hit the point where some people say Yes this! and others say No this! Yes we have to prohibit ___, because !!! No, we may not prohibit ___, because !!!. And everybody can point to the first principle and all the yes-s and no-s and except-ifs and but-not-ifs that went before, and say *they* are the ones continuing along the same line, and the other ones are the ones going backwards or sideways.

Somewhere, in all of it, is this idea that "we" just know. We just know what's okay and what isn't. Obviously your framers thought that too -- to the extent that they didn't even think it had to be spelled out. Freedom of speech shall not be abridged -- but *of course* people won't be allowed to lie under oath or utter threats against the president. (Or a few other things people would not have been allowed to do back then ... but may do now with impunity, based on what those framers said, but probably not at all on what they thought. Imagine their reaction to Larry Flynt.) Why would we even bother mentioning that? Everybody knows it.

It's the refusal to acknowledge any of this that makes it impossible to hold a rational, civil discussion, e.g. with people who insist that the second amendment means exactly and only what it says and only those words may be considered, while merrily having nothing to say about how this works if applied to what the first amendment says. If they agree that shouting Fire in a crowded theatre where there is no fire may be outlawed, despite what the first amendment says about not abridging the freedom of speech, then they just can't say that possessing handguns may not be outlawed because of what the second amendment says about not infringing the right to keep and bear arms. That really and simply is not an end to the matter for one case if it isn't for the other. They may be able to make cogent argument for their position, but they will never be "right" any more than someone who argues for or against prohibiting child pornography will be "right".



There is also substantial writings to indicate that they felt the people should also be armed for personal defense of life and liberty as well, but I agree with the arguments yesterday that it was primarily in a militia context.

My goodness.

And I gather that there is also some mumbling in the direction of what I've said about your second amendment for a long time: that it is an individual right, not a collective right, but it is a particular kind of individual right. It is an individual right to do a certain thing in order to exercise a collective right.

My analogy is the right to vote. It's a right that's actually spelled out in my constitution:

3. Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.

but that's not a good example of what I'm on about, because it actually does contain the internal limitations I'm getting at. There is a more general "right" to vote: the civil/political right of people to participate in the government of their society. If it weren't in our constitution, it would still be regarded as the right of every individual. As framed, it's a civil right: a right that derives from status as a "citizen", a member of the polity, as your court has put it in relation to the right to keep and bear arms, I believe. It's not like the right to life or liberty, which derive from status as a human being.

But the point is that it's a right that must be exercised in a certain way and for a certain purpose. There is no "right to vote" willy-nilly. You can't just announce that you've decided to vote now and could you please have a ballot, and will everyone please abide by the results of the vote you've decided to engage in. You get to vote in an election.

Elections are exercises of the *collective* right to self-determination. *A people* gets to govern itself. But a people can't do that unless people do it. So people have to have the right to vote, in order that the people can exercise its right to self-determination.

Ah, but what if the people in charge of holding elections don't hold one? How do you exercise your right to vote? How does the people exercise its collective right to self-determination? Who gets to call the election?

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state ...

The security of the state, the freedom of the state, are collective rights. The collective right of a people to security -- not to be harmed, physically or economically, etc.; and the collective right of a people to be free -- not to be governed against its will. The need for the means to ensure that security and that freedom. And thus the need for individuals -- the people -- to be authorized and equipped to take action that will enable the collectivity -- the people -- to exercise its rights.

That's how I see the second amendment. Your framers were concerned about the freedom and security of their youthful state, and saw a need for a way to preserve and protect them. The whole revolution thing was an exercise of those collective rights: peaceful and prosperous existence as a collectivity, and self-determination as a collectivity.

(How that's all related to the whole decentralized, state-vs-federal power struggle, I am not sufficiently expert to say. I tend to think it really isn't, actually, except in terms of the mechanics of how the individual/collective rights recognized/protected in that amendment would then be exercised, and what collectivity's rights to security and self-determination were in issue.)

The business about weapons for personal protection (or recreation, or subsistence), that's a completely different thing and comes under the individual rights to life and liberty, and the ways that those rights are exercised, and whether any particular rule interferes unacceptably in the ability to exercise them. And in that way it's subject to all the ordinary considerations about how justification for interferences in the exercise of rights is established.



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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Thank you very much, Iverglas!
Thank you very much for the articulate, comprehensive, and friendly response.

I'm serious.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. they're always on tap

And I shouldn't have to say it, but positive reinforcement is often wise (as a general incentive, if not individual):

and thank you for not pretending I said anything I didn't say. ;)

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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. But it has to be locked!!!


Later on he said:

MR. DELLINGER: There are some versions of the trigger lock that allow you to put the trigger lock
on and then load the gun. (page 82)


It sounds like he is promoting loaded guns with trigger locks !!!

That seems extremely unsafe!!!





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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
21. Will the "strict scrutiny" standard cripple gun regulation?
If the Supreme Court, now and in the future, applies a "strict scrutiny" standard to existing and proposed gun regulations, will this cripple serious attempts at gun control? The "strict scrutiny" standard grew from the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. If I heard her right, Marcia Coyle, legal affairs correspondent for PBS, suggested such an application of judicial scrutiny is usually the "death knell for government regulation." (I could not get the audio playback of PBS' deep coverage to work properly, so if you can find out exactly what she said, have at it!)

<http://www.answers.com/topic/strict-scrutiny?cat=biz-fin)> Link to "strict scrutiny" definitions and standards.



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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Any regulation on the 2A SHOULD be under strict scrutiny!!
Under strict scrutiny a proposed gun law would have to be proven to be beneficial. Then it would have to be proven to not place an undue burden on 2A rights. We will see an end to do nothing, feel good gun laws that do nothing but burden the law abiding.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. most people don't understand
that a ruling strikin down the ban is not the end to all gun control- in fact many state laws and federal legilsation would probably be found constitutional- i would even suspect that NYS pistol permit system (in fact the most restrictive pistol licensing scheme of any 50 states) would probably still stay intact- maybe some of the fees would decrease but i dont see it going away
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Have you considered
that with an affirmation of individual rights governments may not be able to levy taxes on excessing those rights? The pole tax, for example, was found to be an unconstitutional impediment to excessing ones right to vote. Would fees on permits to own firearms be upheld as constitutional? The permit might pass muster but I'm not so sure about the fees.

I'm also thinking that the $200.00 tax on NFA items will have to go. Though NFA will be largely unaffected.

Your thoughts?
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. i have mixed feelings
i could think an administrative fee of like $10 dollars would stand because you can make the case that anybody wanting the buy a handgun would surely be able to afford the $10 fee....but i think the NFA tax may have to go- and fees like the $200 pistol permit fee (which im dealing with)
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. You may be correct, however if as little as $10.00 admin. fee
is allowed it will open the door for the same to be, once again, to voting. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that that situation does in fact come down.

Of course I do happen to believe that a five or ten dollar admin fee on either WOULD be reasonable.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. well its different with voting
because there isnt really an inherint cost in excersing that right- you dont buy the voting machine or buy ballot- but you buy a gun- so there can be a reasonable case made that if you are able to to pay 200 dollars, that 5 dollars more shouldnt be a big deal.
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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. But we're talking about administrative fees, not the cost of an item and sale tax.
If an administrative fee assessed to defray the cost of the NICS system is constitutional, then an administrative fee at the voting booth will also be constitutional.

Right now projections are that a Florida "re-vote" will cost tax payers 35 million dollars. Imagine what would happen if the cost of administrating an election could constitutionally be defrayed IF an admin. fee of 5 or 10 bucks could be charged at the time of voting. I think it would be an easy sell to the public.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. "the pole tax"


Now, why would anybody be wanting to tax poles?


I wonder what luck the next person who refuses to pay for issuance of a marriage licence will have ...

They charge sales tax on newspapers down there?

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L1A1Rocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Sales tax, yes. But there is no tax or admin fee paid to the
Federal Bureau of Print, Speech, and Expression. Perhaps there may be a FBPSE some day. I hope not.
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