Gun statistics you seldom see

[beevul]

Gun statistics you seldom see

GORDON DILLOW
Register columnist



It happened earlier this month in Irvine. Police were looking for a man suspected of raping an 18-year-old woman in her home. As the cops searched, the fleeing suspect, a 27-year-old L.A. gang member, tried to hide by breaking into another home. Inside, the homeowner, a man who had recently undergone defensive firearms training, heard the commotion, grabbed a handgun and confronted the suspect.

But as I said, the homeowner – for security reasons, he declined to be interviewed or identified by name – didn't shoot. Instead, he shouted at the suspect to stop, at which point the guy ran out of the house. Shortly thereafter he was caught and arrested by the police.

So how will that incident be reflected in the crime statistics?

Yes, the rape will be added to the grim numbers of that despicable crime, and the successful arrest will appear in the Irvine Police Department's annual statistics. And ironically, if the homeowner had justifiably shot and killed the intruder it still would have been listed in the overall statistics as a gun-related homicide – the same statistics that anti-gun activists use to promote stricter so-called "gun control" laws to keep firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.

But police departments and other government agencies don't collect hard numbers on crimes that may have been prevented by armed citizens – because, as in the Irvine case, they're difficult and sometimes impossible to quantify.

And that's unfortunate. Because crimes prevented by firearms are as important in the debate over guns as crimes committed with firearms.

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_2003954.php

An interesting read, it echoes what many of us have said for some time with regard to statistics.

[Lasher]

1. If a homeowner shoots in self defense it's recorded as a gun-related homicide?

What's with that? How about if a policeman shoots someone, is that recoded as a homicide too?

[reformedrethug]

3. Anytime somebody dies

their "method" of death is recorded be it natural, suicide, homicide, or accidental. Just because it is called a homicide does not mean that it was a crime, homicide means:

The killing of one human being by the act or omission of another. The term applies to all such killings, whether criminal or not. Homicide is considered noncriminal in a number of situations, including deaths as the result of war and putting someone to death by the valid sentence of a court. Killing may also be legally justified or excused, as it is in cases of self-defense or when someone is killed by another person who is attempting to prevent a violent felony. Criminal homicide occurs when a person purposely, knowingly, recklessly or negligently causes the death of another. Murder and manslaughter are both examples of criminal homicide.

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/51AB22D3-86AB-4B55-8648BC28B45909C0/alpha/H/

[Lasher]

4. That's interesting.

And so when someone cites a number, it might be good to know if they are criminal homicides or the total of all.

[L1A1Rocker]

9. Yep, and it also helps to know what the definition of "child" is.

HCI came out with a wonderful statistic about how a handgun was 21 times more likely to be used in a homicide on a child than used in self defense.

Well, you know how the definition of homicide can cook the books here but did you know that that statistic defined children from birth all the way up to 21 years old?

[Lasher]

10. Figures don't like but liars figure.

I am reminded or claims like, "Over half of all Americans pay no tax at all." I can usually refute such claims pretty easily. If not it's good to ask for a link to the liars' source, where in this case they are probably counting newborns and family pets.

[bushmeister0]

2. I think you just undermined your arguement there, Ace,

"Police departments and other government agencies don't collect hard numbers on crimes that may have been prevented by armed citizens – because, as in the Irvine case, they're difficult and sometimes impossible to quantify."

Pretty much anyone armed in this country -- law abiding or otherwise -- is probably a citizen. Law enforcement agencies are only concerned with keeping the peace and anyone they confront who is armed is a potential threat.

Ever go on a "domestic" call? I have, cops hate them. Joe "normal citizen" may be, by day, a stand up guy, but get a few too many Coor's Lights into him and after a real knock-down-drag-out with his girlfriend or wife the situation can really become interesting, especially when he's got a gun in the closet.

The case you cite is a one in a thousand situation; a real anomoly, no wonder the police don't keep "hard numbers" on it. The one I cited is everyday, every minute in these United States. I don't understand how you "law and order" types never get the fact that the police have to deal with this shit everyday, and they're the ones, naturally, who always support some sort of reasonable gun control. hOW Can you blame them?

[pipoman]

5. Wrong "Ace"

on so many counts.

"Law enforcement agencies are only concerned with keeping the peace"

Wrong. They are concerned with investigating crime after it has occurred. Until a crime is committed the police are not able to do much of anything.

"anyone they confront who is armed is a potential threat."

Police are trained that anyone they confront armed or not are a potential threat...whats your point?

"Ever go on a "domestic" call? I have, cops hate them. Joe "normal citizen" may be, by day, a stand up guy, but get a few too many Coor's Lights into him and after a real knock-down-drag-out with his girlfriend or wife the situation can really become interesting, especially when he's got a gun in the closet."

Cops hate them? Tough, maybe they should be school teachers or clergy then, welcome to the real world. To say you are all for curbing the rights of the many for the perceived misdeeds of a few is stomach turning. I have never had the police to my house for domestic violence, I have never seen the police at any house on my block, ever, on a domestic violence call, I don't know anyone personally who has had a domestic violence arrest. Anyone who has had a domestic violence conviction, even a misdemeanor, or is the subject of a domestic violence restraining order is ineligible to legally buy a firearm. What more do you want?

"The case you cite is a one in a thousand situation; a real anomoly, no wonder the police don't keep "hard numbers" on it."

Wrong. Please site your source. Here is a real stat based on actual studies.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

* Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)

16b. The study states: “Eleven of the surveys permitted the computation of a reasonable adjusted estimate of frequency. Two surveys for which estimates could not be produced were the Cambridge Reports and the Time/ CNN. Neither asked the question of all ; thus, it would be sheer speculation what the responses would have been among those not asked the question. All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year.”

"I don't understand how you "law and order" types never get the fact that the police have to deal with this shit everyday, and they're the ones, naturally, who always support some sort of reasonable gun control."

Wrong. Have you read this brief in DC v. Heller?

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/07-290bsacreprintintllawenforcementeducatorstrainers.pdf

Check out what organizations signed onto that brief. Amazing, mostly rank and file police organizations. Guess all police don't wish to step on our rights huh?

[bushmeister0]

6. Right there you just blew your whole deal Ace.

(You don't mind me calling you "Ace" do you? You're not going to lose your shit and shoot me are you?)

"Cops hate them? Tough, maybe they should be school teachers or clergy then, welcome to the real world."

Welcome to the real woord? What the hell do you know about it? I grew up in a cop family, I know what I'm talking about. You're full of it.

If this is the kind of world you want to live in why don't you enlist and go over to Iraq or Afghanistan? Or better yet, Somalia; Where all their problems are handled at the end of a barrel?

[pipoman]

7. Reality is difficult for some to understand champ (you don't mind me calling you champ do you?)

What do I know about it? Enough to know that eliminating firearms from the overwhelming majority of law abiding citizens isn't going to stop the steroid inflamed LEO from beating his girlfriend then his LEO buds turning a blind eye to it.

How is that for blind stereotyping?

[DonP]

11. Being from a "Cop Family" may not be the kind of credibility some people think it is

There are a lot of cops out there that serve honorably and courageously, but there are also plenty that have no business being in a uniform or carrying a gun.

Speaking oif cops beating women ...

Try Anthony Abbate, from a long term cop family, a 200+ pound cop here in Chicago who got drunk and proceeded to beat and kick a 95 pound bartender to within an inch of her life when she refused to keep serving him.

The Chicago police ignored the incident until a local TV station broadcast the videotape of the beating a month later. Before it hit the air the cop and his buddies quietly tried to make the incident go away and were also filmed threateniong the bartender and telling her she better drop any charges.

Abatte is suspended pending dismissal and his cop buddies are in review now.

So excuse us if an internet claim to knowing all about cops doesn't impress some of us.

BTW, does he know that the FOP filed an amicus brief in support of Heller, right? So basically the biggest organization of street cops is in favor of citizens having 2nd amenment rights.

[pipoman]

8. Oh, and is that the only part of my post you dispute, winner? n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[pipoman]

13. hmmm..

[WWFZD]

14. Wow, that's interesting to know

"Ever go on a "domestic" call? I have, cops hate them. Joe "normal citizen" may be, by day, a stand up guy, but get a few too many Coor's Lights into him and after a real knock-down-drag-out with his girlfriend or wife the situation can really become interesting, especially when he's got a gun in the closet."

Most cops I've met are just good people doing a job, a tough and a necessary job.
I've also encountered those who think of their fellow citizens exactly as you've described.
Joe "normal" citizen doesn't get ripped, beat his old lady, go for the gun and start interesting situations. We have people like that in society, in our free republic they're hard to get rid of or avoid, but they're not, by any account, normal citizens.

[L1A1Rocker]

15. Thank you for putting that into proper perspective.