Philly tries again

[bossy22]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/city/20080411_Nutter_defiantly_signs_five_gun_laws.html


i love it how they have the police and other civil servants surround them

[virginia mountainman]

1. HA HA, at least he is named apropriotly..

Yea, that is the thing to do in a "to close to call" state like Pennsylvania...

Yea, smart, lets stir up the gun debate in a election year...

Nutter, he is.

[notesdev]

2. Nutter is a nutter all right

"Almost 232 years ago, a group of concerned Americans took matters in their own hands and did what they needed to do by declaring that the time had come for a change," Nutter said as he signed the bills in front of a table of confiscated weapons outside the police evidence room in City Hall."

Now, Mayor Nutter, what do you think prompted those concerned Americans to take matters into their own hands? Did you happen to notice, when researching that little bit of history, that the action that prompted the rebellion was an attempt by the British Crown to take weapons (and thus the ability to defend themselves from a tyrannical government) out of the hands of ordinary citizens?

[DonP]

3. The hired help does what it's told

We get it here in Chicago all the time too.

Daley just doesn't appreciate the irony of calling for a gun ban and loudly proclaiming; "there is no use for guns other than killing", in a city that already has one, while surrounded on the platform by his undercover armed security detail.

His latest round of gun control proposals lost again in Springfield and by a wider margin every year for the last 4 years. I think our legislature has had enough of his bullying.

[SteveM]

4. When Americans took matters into their own hands, what was in those hands?

[krispos42]

6. Angry letters to the editor

Protest signs. Banners. Constumes.

[gatts]

8. Lawsuits

Protest signs. Banners. Costumes.

I've got a better one: lawsuits.

This is illegal. Pennsylvania has a law, 18 Pa.C.S. 6101, which states that "No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for the purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth". Oritz v. Commonwealth demonstrates that this applies even to counties, municipalities, or townships which have a home-rule charter, and thus applies to Phili.

Nutter is violating that law, and doing so knowingly.

[bossy22]

9. the end result

he will lose, and keep trying again

[notesdev]

19. calls for a civil rights lawsuit

Go after his personal assets and this nonsense will stop.

[iverglas]

21. one sometimes doesn't know

whether to laugh or cry.

I mean, pointing and laughing is easy, and hard to resist.

But to imagine that people who say things like these think they're making sense, whew, that's sad.

To then think about what it would take for someone to think things like that make sense ... well, that way lies despair.

[Tejas]

24. In a nutshell, you just described Nutter

Instead of fighting actual crime, he attempts to "create criminals". In doing so he has done nothing better than set the stage for an attempt to overturn PA state law and PA Supreme Court precedent.

That will cost MONEY, and he will lose his case, and we will all lose.....MONEY. Money in the tax coffers that could have been better spent on local social programs, city improvements, etc etc etc.....

Nutter needs to be run out of town, not only because of the money he is going to cost PA citizens due to litigation, but for his idiotic "patriot self-comparison". Sheesh, even Helmke and Brady have sense enough not to say something so moronic.

[krispos42]

5. So, this is what he signed

• Limit handgun purchases to one a month.
  
  The suburbs of Philly are still in the state of Pennsylvania. Oops. Not gonna do a thing as a crime-control measure.
  
  
• Require lost or stolen firearms to be reported to police within 24 hours.
  
  Presumebly they mean "within 24 hours of discovery of them missing". While I feel this is a good idea to do just as a means of personal legal protection, I don't see how this will help anything from a crime-control measure.
  
  
• Prohibit individuals under protection-from-abuse orders from possessing guns if ordered by the court.
  
  Huh? This sounds like the victim of the abuse can't possess a gun. WTF?
  
  
• Allow removal of firearms from "persons posing a risk of imminent personal injury" to themselves or others.
  
  Hmmm... who decides this? How will they get them back? Will they be financially compensated while they are gone?
  
  
• Outlaw the possession and sale of certain assault weapons.

Pushing the idea that the only reason to own guns is hunting and target shooting, I see. Again, how will this be an effective crime-control measure?

[jody]

7. Nutter is using BO's chant "Hope, Change, Blame". IMO he would make more progress by attacking the

basic cause of crime in his city rather than blaming an inanimate object as Washington D.C. does.

"Almost 232 years ago, a group of concerned Americans took matters in their own hands and did what they needed to do by declaring that the time had come for a change," Nutter said as he signed the bills in front of a table of confiscated weapons outside the police evidence room in City Hall.

Firearm manufacturing firms are controlled by white business interests.

When Nutter blames guns for his city's violent crime problem, is that not also double-talk to accuse whites of deliberately selling guns to black criminals who in turn create havoc in black communities?

A few more leading black Dems like Nutter spouting such nonsense will definitely destroy BO's quest for the Dem nomination.

[virginia mountainman]

10. With the Supreme Court case....

all these little "Gun control" laws that keep cropping up (that have no hope of survival, like a gun ban in LOUISIANA, this BULLSHIT in Pennsylvania, and a few other locations..

Why so many Democrats fall for that pied piper Sara Brady is beyond me. The effects are clear.. It is EASY to sit back and name MANY Democrats, that lost there asses in the push for Gun Control. The lists go on, and on. Hell even most Republicans that run on a gun control platform find themselves "unelectable"

I can only think of ONE, who WINS on a gun control platform.

I am afraid we are heading for a disaster at the polls.....

[iverglas]

12. I wonder how surprised you would be to learn ...

Why so many Democrats fall for that pied piper Sara Brady is beyond me

... that the vast majority of people who vote for the Democratic Party in the US have never fucking heard of Sara Brady.

Loaded wondering. You couldn't be at all surprised to learn something you already know.

So hmm. I wonder how surprised all those Democratic Party voters would be to see someone insulting their intelligence as you do.


I am afraid we are heading for a disaster at the polls.....

Sometimes one is just so tempted to quote Redd Foxx ...

[Tejas]

14. Nobody said "vast majority" so.... your point/spin is moot n/t

[Spoonman]

20. Well that's strange

... that the vast majority of people who vote for the Democratic Party in the US have never fucking heard of Sara Brady.

I guess we can dismiss this comment as nothing more than another one of your typical aggressive attacks that is based on nothing greater than opinion.

I'm sure you have some reputable source to back this assertion up.

One could easily surmise that you are insinuating that people who vote for the Democratic Party in the US are too stupid/uneducated to remember, learn history, or keep up with current affairs.

*We* know that's not reality, but we would like to know if that's what you think.

[jody]

13. IMO to avoid disaster in Nov, BO & HC should promise voters they will veto every bill that comes to

the Oval Office that infringes upon the right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms for self-defense and other legal purposes.

No excuses or apologies for past anti-gun statements or votes on bills that infringed upon RKBA or association with known gun-grabbers, just a simple promise to veto every anti-RKBA bill.

Then say I'm ready to talk about things that are really important like the war in Iraq, the economy, education and when anyone wants to bring up a divisive issue like RKBA, abortion, LGBT concerns, prayer in the school, etc. just say "America has more important issues that we must resolve before we try to find a solution for issues that polarize so many Americans and for which compromise is impossible."

[Tejas]

15. Sounds like a plan,

I would hope they'd encourage the House and Senate to do the same!

[iverglas]

11. surely I'm not the only one to find this worrisome

Firearm manufacturing firms are controlled by white business interests.

When Nutter blames guns for his city's violent crime problem, is that not also double-talk to accuse whites of deliberately selling guns to black criminals who in turn create havoc in black communities?

A few more leading black Dems like Nutter spouting such nonsense will definitely destroy BO's quest for the Dem nomination.


Er, say what?

I'd venture to guess that most banks in the US are controlled by white business interests too.

Are people decrying the predatory lending practices of US banks engaging in double-talk to accuse whites of deliberately rooking black would-be homeowners into losing their life's savings?

Of course, most homeowners are white ... and most criminals are black ... is that it, jody?

So people who decry predatory lending practices are just regular folk, while people who decry predatory firearms sales practices are black racists?


Some pretty strange stuff coming from that particular keyboard these days.

Without even mentioning the usual "blaming an inanimate object" horseshit. I have to assume that people who decry predatory lending practices on the part of banks are blaming money for their problems ...

[Tejas]

16. yes, you are (hint: we're talking about guns, not banks) n/t

[iverglas]

17. actually, I know what "we" were talking about

and it was neither guns nor banks. I think you actually may not know ... or may not notice.




And just because I find it wise to remember these things ...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WNP-4FMBK96-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8b0480f2c62f26eca1566c088658439f

Neural correlates of intelligence as revealed by fMRI of fluid analogies

Abstract

It has been conjectured that the cognitive basis of intelligence is the ability to make fluid or creative analogical relationships between distantly related concepts or pieces of information (Hofstadter, D.R. 1995. Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies. Basic Books, New York., Hofstadter, D.R. 2001. Analogy as the Core of Cognition. In The Analogical Mind: Perspectives from Cognitive Science (D. Gentner, K. J. Holyoak and B. N. Kokinov, Ed.). pp. 504–537. MIT Press, Cambridge, Mass.). We hypothesised that fluid analogy-making tasks would activate specific regions of frontal cortex that were common to those of previous inferential reasoning tasks. We report here a novel self-paced event-related fMRI study employed to investigate the neural correlates of intelligence associated with undertaking fluid letter string analogy tasks. Stimuli were adapted from items of the AI program Copycat (Mitchell, M. 1993. Analogy-making as Perception: A computer model. The MIT Press, Cambridge MA.). Twelve right-handed adults chose their own “best” completions from four plausible response choices to 55 fluid letter string analogies across a range of analogical depths. An analysis using covariates determined per subject by analogical depth revealed significant bilateral neural activations in the superior, inferior, and middle frontal gyri and in the anterior cingulate/paracingulate cortex. These frontal areas have been previously associated with reasoning tasks involving inductive syllogisms, syntactic hierarchies, and linguistic creativity. A higher-order analysis covarying participants' verbal intelligence measures found correlations with individual BOLD activation strengths in two ROIs within BA 9 and BA 45/46. This is a provocative result given that verbal intelligence is conceptualised as being a measure of crystallised intelligence, while analogy making is conceptualised as requiring fluid intelligence. The results therefore support the conjecture that fluid analogising could underpin general intellectual performance.

[Tejas]

23. Then try to keep up,

and do what you can to hold within context lest Helmke or Nutter smite you for plaguerism ;)

[Tejas]

25. So, any guesses on how many injunctions to follow?

Is that possible in this situation under PA law?

[beevul]

18. Priceless.

"Nutter defiantly signs five gun laws"

"Almost 232 years ago, a group of concerned Americans took matters in their own hands and did what they needed to do by declaring that the time had come for a change," Nutter said as he signed the bills in front of a table of confiscated weapons outside the police evidence room in City Hall."

Yes. some 230ish years ago, this happened:

"About 700 British Army regulars, under Lieutenant Colonel Francis Smith, were ordered to capture and destroy military supplies that were reportedly stored by the Massachusetts militia at Concord. Dr. Joseph Warren alerted the colonists of this. The Patriot colonists had received intelligence weeks before the expedition which warned of an impending British search, and had moved much, but not all, of the supplies to safety. They had also received details about British plans on the night before the battle, and information was rapidly supplied to the militia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord

"Outlaw the possession and sale of certain assault weapons."


Only a politician would compare what happened back then, with signing gun control/gun-grabbing bills into law. He should be ashamed of himself.

[Tejas]

22. They can't make this stuff up

"Only a politician would compare what happened back then, with signing gun control/gun-grabbing bills into law. He should be ashamed of himself."


I mean really, where do they find those people? It's like something goes in one ear and comes out of their mouth completely skewed.

[Indy Lurker]

26. Isn't some of this already law?

"Prohibit individuals under protection-from-abuse orders from possessing guns if ordered by the court."

I thought federal law already disarmed everyone who has a order of protection against them?




Allow removal of firearms from "persons posing a risk of imminent personal injury" to themselves or others.

Again this is already law. If someone is a threat to themselves or others, they can be involuntary committed to a mental health facility. Once committed, federal law prevents them from owning a firearm.


ONEDIT: I'm mostly commenting on the poor quality of the reporting, as the city can't just be copying federal law.

[Tejas]

27. correct

On #1, the Lautenburg (sp?) amendment.

[gatts]

29. WRONG!

On #1, the Lautenburg (sp?) amendment.

Lautenberg (D-Jersey) prohibits individuals who have previously been convicted of a crime of misdemeanor domestic violence or are subject to a restraining order related to domestic abuse from owning or purchasing most firearms, as well as the sale of most firearms to those individuals. The Philadelphia law prohibits individuals subject to any Protection From Abuse orders from owning firearms regardless of why said order was put into place, nor does it have an exception for any types of guns not recognized as firearms by Lautenberg and associate law (mostly black powder muzzle-loaders and antiques).

[Tejas]

30. um, abuse is still abuse, Lautenberg trumps your tirade

The question posed dealt with abuse vs possession. You can holler and scream at your partner and the right prosecutor will hand you your a** via Lautenberg. They do not need Nutter's BS, they already have the tool.

Don't believe a word of it?

Try it and let me know how it works out for you.

The gist of my comment stands.

[gatts]

31. You're missing my point.

Lautenberg only covered domestic abuse and domestic violence. This act covers all protection-from-abuse orders. While most of the latter revolve around things counted as domestic abuse by Lautenberg, they are not required by statute to do so.

[Tejas]

32. Ah, I see

Sorry, the CAPS and hollerin' and stuff threw me off.

Sure is some nuttery stuff they come up with up there, still think it's a planned waste of taxpayer's money. Planned because of the added beaurocracy that's sure to follow.

[gatts]

33. Sorry

Sorry about that. I was hoping to go for the Lex Luthor sorta thing, but the subject header stripped the tags out.

[gatts]

28. PDF format

If the City were copying federal law, it could still be rather nasty. The concept of dual sovereignty, and the potential damage Justice Hugo Black's Bartkus v. Illinois dissent highlighted, makes it quite possible for such a copied law to violate the right to protection from double jeopardy. Fighting a single court case is unpleasant and potentially economically crippling; fighting a federal, state, and local one is unconstitutionally so.

Moreover, copying the law allows Nutter and his associates to claim that they're following the state's preemption rule. While that's not the case, especially with the assault weapon ban, it'll at least involve a long court case rather than a judge laughing with spittle.

However, there are some minor differences.

http://webapps.phila.gov/council/attachments/5080.pdf">1. 080018-A Prohibited Possession, Sale, Transfer of Firearms by Persons Subject to Protection from Abuse Orders

http://webapps.phila.gov/council/attachments/5081.pdf">2. 080032-A Reporting Lost or Stolen

http://webapps.phila.gov/council/attachments/5083.pdf">3. 080035-A One Gun A Month

http://webapps.phila.gov/council/attachments/4733.pdf">4. 080017 Removal of Firearms From Persons Posing Risk

http://webapps.phila.gov/council/attachments/4748.pdf">5. 080033 Assault Weapons Ban
(hat tip : Sebastian of SnowflakesInHell.com and his reader, ErnieD)

Law 1 is facially similar to existing prohibited persons law. Only facially, though; it doesn't have the federal law's requirement that the individual subject to the restraining be notified, nor does is it limited to specific types of restraining order. Violating the federal law is also a felony, while Philadelphia's law is only a misdemeanor (and tries to punish individuals by destroying the firearm :eyes: ).

Law 4, the removal of firearms from persons posing risk, looks like part of the federal prohibited person law from overview, but is nothing like it in text, and questionably constitutional. Federal law does not strip rights merely from people seeming generally risky. It requires a conviction of a felony, a conviction of a misdemeanor domestic violence, unlawful drug use, the successful use of an insanity plea, an involuntary stay in a mental hospital, being a fugitive from justice, documented renounced citizenship, dishonorable discharge from the United States military, or certain subsets of restraining orders.
This law only requires a judge and an attorney believe a person to be risky in general in order to seize firearms, without even the low standard of a temporary restraining order being necessary. It's also only a law enabling the Philadelphia police to take guns (and report individuals to mental health facilities), not a prohibition from individuals purchasing firearms, and can be circumvented legally and easily within ten days (saying the police officers follow the law.

Law 4, coincidentally, is probably the NRA's wet dream when it comes to getting funding, by the way.

[Tejas]

34. and the Nutter-ness deepens

http://www.kyw1060.com/City-s-New-Gun-Laws-are-Illegal--Says-Phila--DA/2006537



Posted: Tuesday, 15 April 2008 11:50AM

City's New Gun Control Laws are Unconstitutional, Says Phila. DA

by KYW's Tony Hanson and Mike Dunn


Philadelphia DA Lynne Abraham says the city's newly enacted gun control laws are unenforceable.
<snip>
When asked point-blank by a city councilmember if her office would enforce the new city gun control laws, she replied, "Nope." She warned that if police began making arrests under the new laws, the city could face a wholesale wave of civil rights lawsuits in response.
<snip>
In reaction to DA Abraham's remarks before City Council, Mayor Nutter (right) said he hopes to discuss the DA's position further with her, and he hopes that his law department can convince Abraham that the laws are defensible:

"Much more conversation (with the DA) needs to take place about this. I think that these are legitimate pieces of legislation."





Nutter just doesn't get it, does he?

Where was the communication between him and the DA previous to the signing? I don't think we're getting the whole story here.

[bossy22]

35. well i understand the DA

cause if she prosecutes them- she becomes fair game for law suits- and possibly the loss of her job...shes right and nutter is wrong- Nutter knows he is wrong-

has anyone filed suit against these laws yet?

[Tejas]

36. the DA "gets it"

but that mayor - wow

Not sure but seems that until the local law goes into effect that an injunction would be the only source of relief. Really don't know, just throwing that out there.

If and when the first lawsuit is filed, guess who gets to PAY to defend the city?

nice job there Nutter! :sarcasm:

[SteveM]

37. Nutter: the equivalent of standing in the school house door.

[Dukkha]

38. Now There's an elitist divorced from reality!

He was on Steven Colbert boasting about his flagrant abuse of power for his own person grandstanding gesture.

[slackmaster]

39. Is it asking too much to expect city government officials to obey the law?

:shrug: