I've got this Mossberg 590A1.

[Lasher]

This is the type shotgun used by our military in Vietnam. I decided to get a bayonet for it, being intrigued by the lug it has for that purpose. I ordered an M7 bayonet, which is the same type I was issued in 1969 for use with my M16. It fits perfectly and looks like this:



I knew shotguns were used by our military, and that they still are today. But the thought never occurred to me that you could affix a bayonet to one.

I'm not sure if this would have been considered pre-ban, and therefore legal, under the assault weapons ban. But since that legislation has thankfully expired, the point is academic.

[jmg257]

1. Because it was a pump it would not have been banned. New bills however...

ANyway, take a look at the old Winchester M1897 & M1912 "trench guns" that used the 16" M1917 bayonet - very interesting.

[Tejas]

3. yikes!

<McCarthy>Those have TTGU's!!!1!<McCarthy/>



(things-that-go-up)



:sarcasm:



*for the uninformed, the barrel shrouds on the shotguns pictured are the point of this, Rep McCarthy (NY) has attempted to get them banned. Me, no earthly clue as to why she chooses to persue such things.

[Lasher]

4. Yes, that is interesting, thanks.

Hmm, guess you're right in that it wouldn't have been prohibited. And if this Wiki article can be believed, a bayonet lug would not have made even a semi-automatic shotgun illegal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_assault_weapons_ban#Definition_of_assault_weapon

[Longtooth]

9. IIRC the 1897 did not have trigger disconnecter.

Just hold down trigger and pump.

[slackmaster]

35. I have an Ithaca law enforcement shotgun like that

It's pretty easy to burn through ammo.

[rateyes]

2. I used to sell that gun, as well as assault weapons...

That weapon is not considered an assault weapon, such as the AR-15 (semi-automatic version of the M-16 you carried around in 'Nam).

I had a customer who came in the store (before the background check law) and purchased an AR-15 and every round of ammunition we had in the store for the rifle.

A few days later I was picking him out of a line-up after he went to a high school and shot out the lights in a gymnasium after which he went to a karate studio and murdered the instructor. Thankfully, he didn't use the weapon I had sold him (which he had turned into an M-16 automatic weapon), but I was picking him out because an idiot in another store where he purchased the gun he did use forgot to get him to sign the damned federal form.

That form asks, questions like "have you ever been convicted of a crime punishable by more than 11 mos. and 29 days?" Of course, without a background check, there's no way to tell if people lie to you. This guy did. He was out on parole after committing a violent assault.

I'm in favor of instant background checks, and the assault weapons ban. The primary use use for an assault weapon is to shoot people and targets. You can use your Mossberg for hunting, as well as for protection around your home...great weapon for those purposes. And, you can just as much fun target shooting with a hunting rifle as you can with an assault rifle.

[Lasher]

6. Do you think the Ruger Mini-14 should be banned?

You can hunt and target practice with black rifles. You can shoot people with a single shot gun. The Ruger Mini-14, which is more than a little similar to the AR-15, could be modified to operate as a full automatic. Post-ban semi-automatic AK-47s were sold without folding stocksor bayonet lugs, and with standard or "thumbhole" stocks instead of pistol-grips.

The assault weapons ban was more about cosmetics than about anything else.

[rateyes]

16. If you can convert it easily from a sem-auto to an auto...

I think it should be banned. I'm not for banning all weapons, but no person outside the military needs an automatic weapon.

[bossy22]

17. those guns are already banned

federally i believe....most semi-autos even "assault weapons" are not easily convertible without good amount of machining skill- in fact its easier to build an automatic weapon from scratch then it is to convert one.

"but no person outside the military needs an automatic weapon"
true- but i always stay way from legislating based on need

[rateyes]

19. Even the most ardent gun rights supporters are for arms control

of some sort. No one outside the military is allowed to own bombs, for example. The only argument is about where to draw the line.

[bossy22]

24. agreed

no one here thinks there should be absolutely know regulations governing firearms

i like regulations which don't interfere with my rights such as background checks, licensing of dealers, etc

[Testament]

25. Bombs, grenades, explosives are legal...

And transferable on form 4.

As for easily convertible, it is the opinion of the ATF that if it is indeed easily convertible then it is the same as a machine gun. However...actually being easily convertible and what the Bradys say, are two different things.

[gorfle]

29. Bombs do not equal small arms.

Even the most ardent gun rights supporters are for arms control of some sort. No one outside the military is allowed to own bombs, for example. The only argument is about where to draw the line.

First of all, many people outside of the military purchase and use explosives, for things like roadwork, demolitions, mining, etc. You need only get a permit.

Secondly, the second amendment is generally agreed to be about infantry small arms. This does not include explosives.

The line is fairly easy to draw. If the arms are small arms suitable for infantry use by the regular army, it is an appropriate small arm for ownership by The People, for the whole purpose of the second amendment was to enable The People to be able to counter or eliminate the need for the military power of the federal government. To achieve this purpose this means that the arms of The People should be equivalent in capability to the arms of regular infantry.

[Firethorn]

32. Private indivuals DO own bombs...

No one outside the military is allowed to own bombs

Sure you can. You just have to apply for the correct licenses. Either fireworks or demolitions, depending on size and other features.

A professional fireworks licensee can even own stuff like mortars.

Heck, even firecrackers can count as small bombs.

[Testament]

33. Couple notes

Not licenses, unless governed by state law as well, but federally it's transferred on form 4 with a 200 dollar tax stamp. A class 3 license is a dealers license to transfer such things across state lines.

Fireworks and highpower rocketry can go under different cases to get past the bomb and rocket with greater than 4 ounces of propellant provisions of Title 26 Chapter 53.

[gorfle]

28. Such weapons are already illegal.

It is highly illegal to convert a semi-auto weapon into a fully-automatic weapon without extensive paperwork and expensive taxes.

It is even illegal to own the parts necessary to make a weapon fully-automatic, whether they are installed in the weapon or not.

Doing so is a federal crime, and will earn you time in federal prison.

[Firethorn]

31. Automatic weapons - not a big deal

Why would an automatic weapon be a big deal?

I mean, in the last 30 years, there's been 1 murder from a legal one, and that was done by a police officer using a departmental weapon. In that time, I'm aware of 3 defensive uses by civilians. One was a class 3 dealer, and the other was a gun manufacterer research/development agent. He was chased by a number of yahoos in a truck, he ended up opening up with the dealer sample he had with him. They left. ;)

The company's response was 'next time, use one of our products!'.

Other than that, you get a lot of rich guys down at Knob Creek each year having a blast with them - safely.

[derby378]

8. You do remember that the Second Amendment does not mention hunting, right?

This is what I really do not understand about people who label a subjective list of semi-automatics as "assault weapons." Is it because they have black polymer stocks instead of wooden stocks? Is it the pistol grip? Is it the muzzle brake? Is it the Picatinny rail for optics? These are all safety features that make a gun more stable to aim and more accurate. Other than that, they're just semi-automatics like your favorite hunting rifles - and last I heard, Democrats were supposed to be all about freedom of choice. If I choose a muzzle brake, pistol grip, and black polymer stock as features for my rifle, what harm is it to you?

[jmg257]

12. Which guns do you consider "assault weapons"? Just those that meet

the arbitrary description of the original federal ban (semi w/detachable mag plus 2 "evil" features)? Any semi with detachable mags like the Remington 742 or early M1 carbine? Or does the Carbine have to have the bayo lug to make it an "assault weapon"? A semi with detachable magazine AND a pistol grip? Bayo lug? Muzzle brake? A semi or pump shotgun with pistol grip? Shroud?

I am curious to see where the line should be drawn between what is an acceptable "hunting rifle" &/or range gun, and one just for shooting people & targets. The annual "AW" bill proposed in Congress gets broader and broader every year. And the NY assembly just passed a bunch of REALLY restrictive laws, including a duzy of an enhanced "AW" ban - very disheartening (hopefully they will get shut down in the senate).

[gorfle]

20. The primary purpose of most weapons.

I'm in favor of instant background checks, and the assault weapons ban. The primary use use for an assault weapon is to shoot people and targets. You can use your Mossberg for hunting, as well as for protection around your home...great weapon for those purposes.

Fir primary purpose for most weapons, in the 2nd amendment context, is for shooting people. Thus assault weapons probably most closely match the type of "arms" our founding fathers had in mind for The People to be bearing. That is, small arms suitable for military use.

While you can use the Mossberg shown for hunting, shotguns with such short barrels are really not optimal for it. They are clearly anti-personnel weapons.

And, you can just as much fun target shooting with a hunting rifle as you can with an assault rifle.

Since they are equally up to the task, and assault weapons typically are less powerful and often less accurate, why differentiate? Especially when you consider that all rifles account for hardly any homicides annually, let alone assault rifles.

[krispos42]

5. It's black with a bayonet and a barrel shroud

That means it will be in the second round of Feinstein's gun ban, after they ban all the semi-automatics. :-)

Seriously, they used guns like this in World War One, called them "trench guns".

They had to issue all-brass shotgun shells for them, though, as the waxed-paper ones of the time didn't hold up to the mud and moisture.

Keep it for home defense. The only thing that scares some idiot more than starting down the business end of a .73-caliber shotgun is staring down the business end of a .73 caliber shotgun with a big pointy knife attached to the end of it.

[Lasher]

7. Actually mine doesn't have a barrel shroud.

I lifted that OP photo off the internet. Mine lacks the heat shield (shroud) and has the ghost ring rear sight. It looks just like this:



You're right about this being a good home defense resource and it does look real scary with that pointy thingy on it. :) But I doubt if I'll ever use it for that purpose, or even shoot it.

I mostly just consider it a collector's item.

[ak]

10. Mine looks just like this one

I have a bayonet for mine, #4 buck has taken a few skunks and raccoons using it.

[Lasher]

11. Have you ever shot rifled slugs with it?

Seems like it would be a good setup for that but I use a 30-06 Browning BAR II Safari for large game. Unless it's black powder season then I take my Thompson Center .50 caliber Hawken. My hunting shotgun of choice is a Browning Sweet 16.

[ak]

13. Yes

has quite a kick with slugs, I even tried shooting at a couple of young deer just behind my stand two years ago. I can't hit anything with just the front bead.

[Lasher]

14. Don't like the ghost ring rear sight, huh?

[ak]

15. Oh

mine has just a front bead.....its old I got it in 96???

[Lasher]

18. Look upthread at my post #7.

You can see a side view of the peep sight right where you would expect to find a rear sight. That's actually the one I have. The front sight is an orange post. Sorry, I misunderstood. Yours is like the one in the OP.

[ak]

22. OOPs

I was not clear was I? When I purchased mine I don't think you could get the heat shield with the ghost ring sights. It was some time ago so I could be wrong.

[Turbo Teg]

21. Nice, everytime I mean to get

one I've left with something different. I'm eventually gonna get a 590A1. I really like them. I'm thinking about sending my 870 to scattergun Tech (wilson combat) to get tricked out, but I don't feel like paying for it yet.

[Longtooth]

23. I've been happy with my 500A. Not as fancy but it'll do.

[facepalm]

26. not semiauto ergo not assault weapony

Pump action is essentially zero controversey here. AWB only applied to semiautos. And the AWB only referred to semiauto shotguns with pistol grips, folding stocks and big magazines. Yours is missing most of the elements, even the ultra-restrictive CA definition. Pump action would make it illegal in the UK I think.

The bayonet looks sorta silly but nice gun regardless.

[facepalm]

27. i'm partial to the saiga-12

I have a tromix saiga 12 and I should have 20 round drums for it in a few weeks

[jmg257]

30. Of course, pump action rifles are now in jeapordy. Just depends where you live.

NYS A07331


22. "ASSAULT WEAPON" MEANS ANY:
(A) "SEMI-AUTOMATIC OR PUMP-ACTION RIFLE THAT HAS THE CAPACITY TO
ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING..."
(I) A PISTOL GRIP;



The Remington 7615 comes immediately to mind.


edit:
HR 1022

"A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'."


This one isn't as clear, but if one were creative in interpretation enough (say the Attorney General), the Remington 1187 would fit the description. "Semi" seems to be a necessity, but does "or a firearm based on the design" describe "semiautomatic rifle or shotgun", or just "designed for military or LE use".

[zanne]

34. Congratulations!

You are now glorifying violence on a national message forum. Way to go.

[benEzra]

36. Not sure I follow you here...

You are now glorifying violence on a national message forum. Way to go.

Not sure I follow you here. He posted a picture of a common civilian shotgun with a bayonet stuck on the end.

FWIW, the most dangerous aspect of a shotgun is that .729-caliber hole at one end, not whether or not it has a bayonet. Though it is true that more people are murdered by knives than "assault weapons", I suppose...

[bossy22]

37. wow

and you call us nuts..

this is nothing more than a guy attaching an accessory to his legal gun- he is not glorifying violence he is just showing us a picture of what he has done

It woudl be like me posting in an automtive forum a picture of my car with the cold air-intake and then saying by posting such a picture im glorifying reckless driving

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. A picture of a firearm glorifies violence.

You must really hate Hollywood.

David