So Hillary is going after Obama on guns. Yes, again.

[facepalm]

What do you think about this mailer from Indiana? Good? Bad? Hypocritical?

[DJ13]

1. Hillary is the best

Republican our party has.

[Dogmudgeon]

3. That's a Golden Oldie!

Truman.

Kennedy.

LBJ.

Carter.

Bill.

Al Gore.

Now, Hillary.

That's a cover tune that those hipsters just keep buying!

--p!

[Dogmudgeon]

2. What's he for? What's she for?

Both of them, you know, are trying to get votes.

He's going to inspire. She's going to fight.

I'm going to take a brief nap; until, say, November.

--p!

[BOHICA06]

4. That's the most elitist rifle I have ever seen in the media

Left handed with set triggers ... i.e. very custom! You won't see an Indiana Joe Whitetail Hunter in the field with that rig. That's for those upper class that like to safari, guided or canned hunts!

Again .... her media team is OUT OF TOUCH!!!!

[facepalm]

9. OH SHI-

You're right, I didn't even notice it was a left handed safari rifle. Those dumbasses.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

14. That was my first thought.

Damn fine looking rifle there and I didn't even know they still made double set triggers. Thought those went out with the flintlock. Did they get it from Hillary's arsenal cause none of the regular folks I know could afford it.

[SteveM]

5. But... but wait. This is not an issue. It isn't! No! Not an issue!...

The only thing I'm puzzled by is I see more left-handed actions in photos (probably reversed) than in real life. Maybe it's symbolic.

[krispos42]

12. Is it reversed?

Can't tell from the picture, but aren't the bolt-release levers usually on the left side? And wouldn't a lefty shooter still have the scope mounted the same as a righty? Or do leftys rotate the scope 90º? That would switch the windage and elevation knobs.

The rifle is pointing left. I wonder if that's symbolic?

[SteveM]

43. I see a lot of rifles (and many handguns) pointing to the left in photos...

I never knew guns had a "vanity" angle! My Remington 700's bolt release is within the trigger guard just forward of the trigger (the trapdoor release is also here; very busy area). I doubt if the wind-elevation knobs would need to be shifted as they are not frequently adjusted once sighted-in. My out-of-production Simmons is pretty rock-solid through three seasons, now.

[blm]

6. Is this a McCain mailer? What IS Hillary's stance on guns?

.

[iverglas]

7. I wondered too

Want to volunteer? Give us a call today!
Indiana for Hillary Headquarters.
445 N. Pennsylvania St. Suite 205, 2nd Floor Indianapolis, IN 46204 ...
www.hillaryclinton.com/hq/indiana/contact


Comes from there, but what's it saying?

Glad I don't have to figure it all out ...

[Tejas]

13. still wondering

I looked at the link, clicked a few of the tabs but no info relating to guns, even on the "issues" page. Odd that her website wouldn't brag about endorsing an AWB.

[slackmaster]

30. It really looks like the work of Karl Rove

Pure genius if the GOP is behind it. Pure folly if Sen. Clinton's people dreamed it up.

[AlinPA]

8. This is one of the reasons I changed to Obama. Slimy ad. Damned slimy.

[radioburning]

10. Hillary=politics as usual...

I just wish Obama would realize that for every person who commits a crime with a gun, there's hundreds of thousands of people don't commit crimes with a gun. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

[Mercracer]

51. Pro Gun Dems

Both candidates need to realize that there are millions of Democrats who are gun owners... It is only because of lazy Governors, Mayors and Police Chiefs that legislation to ban handguns and offensive looking scarry black rifles gets pushed... If the root cause of violent inner city crime were addressed instead of blaming guns, the results would be much better.....

[TPaine7]

11. If Obama would only respect the Constitution

(as he claims he does as a former law professor), Hillary could get no traction.

He could even say that he disagrees with the Second Amendment, but as president he is bound to protect law abiding citizens' rights to keep and bear arms. That would be honest and believable. He could even say that he would respect the upcoming S.C. ruling (making it clear that he won't respect it the way Bush respects law).

Hillary Clinton knows full well that she voted against the Vitter Amendment. Someone needs to put out a "Hillary voted against preventing gun seizures in emergencies" flier.

Vitter amendment info:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00202

[Coexist]

15. Hello - i don't usually post here - but I have a question for you experts, if you don't mind

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Clinton_mailings_gun_gaffe.html

the link above discusses the flyer you have posted. It states that most hunters/gun owners would recognize that weapon as an expensive custom job, and that it doesn't come left-handed. Is that true?

And if that is true, would it make her campaign look out of touch? I have an honest curiosity, not understanding such things myself.

Thanks in advance for your opinions on this.

[BOHICA06]

16. Here is a Mauser discussion group on the 66

http://www.mausercentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18254

$300 to $1,000 is the range for Joe Hunter - that's a Savage 110, Remington M700, Winchester M70, or a semi-custom Mauser 98 with scope and maybe some add-ons (sling, bedding, checkering, walnut stock, etc.)

Yes, it makes her look out of touch. For true effect they should have used a lever action 30/30 - Marlin or Winchester ... a real meat hunter's gun and banning them would be an affront to John Wayne & America!

[Mercracer]

17. Clinton Guns

This is ironic coming from someone who has historically voted against gun rights and the wife of the president responsible for the destruction of so many surplus M14s.....

[Coexist]

25. thanks.

[facepalm]

18. you are completely correct

It is a gun that a wealthy gentleman would use to engage in sport shooting. I could afford one, but I wouldn't want one because it is the kind of gun someone buys to show how much money they have. To put it in perspective, an ordinary bolt action you can buy in any gun store has 99 percent of the capabilities of such a gun for 1/10 the price.


Cheapest possibility- it is a reversed image of a right handed mauser with a set trigger. This is a 2000-4000 dollar item at least.

More expensive still would be a custom rifle with a left handed action and a set trigger.

More expensive still would be a double barreled bolt action safari rifle. I don't think this is the case from the shape of the triggers or from the general fact that such rifles are mostly a novelty for the ultra-wealthy. If true, that would put the price somewhere north of 40k USD. Probably more thanks to the plummeting dollar.

And for the most expensive possibility, a double barreled, bolt action, left handed custom safari rifle. Price= who knows?

In any case, someone is sure to make light of the fact that Hillary has chosen to defend a LEFT HANDED rifle lol communism.

[Coexist]

24. thanks.

[slackmaster]

19. I see no way this lame hit piece could have any beneficial effect for anyone except John McCain

Democratic voters who place a high priority on their right to keep and bear arms will not be swayed to vote for Senator Clinton. She has a long and unambiguous track record as being hostile to gun owners.

The voters to whom this is directed are more likely than not to sit out the primary, then hold their noses and vote for McCain in the general election.

If McCain prevails in a close race, you can be sure that millions of people who vote their guns had a lot to do with it. But I have no doubt that the DU Forums will be filled with thread upon thread whining about how racist or how sexist our country is.

[iverglas]

20. indeed; is it not an amazing coincidence

If McCain prevails in a close race, you can be sure that millions of people who vote their guns had a lot to do with it. But I have no doubt that the DU Forums will be filled with thread upon thread whining about how racist or how sexist our country is.


how the right-wing old white guy will get the votes of the gun-suckers, and the woman and the black guy won't?

Truly an amazement. Truly.

[slackmaster]

21. The Hispanic guy would have stood a better chance of winning the general election

[virginia mountainman]

22. You said it Slack....

That truth hurts....Not only on the issue of civil rights, but their would be NO, debate about "experience" when it comes to Bill Richardson.

[iverglas]

23. pfft

Delusions of experience. The governor of a backwater state who has played at international relations. The rest of the world would laugh, I assure you.

But hey, he's white and male and he luvz his gunz. He's a god among mortals and sinners. And women and African-Americans.

[virginia mountainman]

26. Good Grief...

He is NOT white, he is Latino....

Geeze Iverglas, when you pontificate, at least try to get your facts straight

[iverglas]

27. doog dog

He is NOT white, he is Latino....

That's really quite beyond belief, that is.

What are Latinos (er, Hispanics): green?

Being half Hisptanic may not be quite as good as being all Anglo, but it sure just ain't quite like being female or black, is it now?

[Tejas]

49. here in Texas

the PC way of it is Latino/Latina = American-born of Mexican descent

[Jack_DeLeon]

53. ROFL...

yeah I guess if Bill Richardson isn't "Hispanic" enough for you then I guess Obama isnt Black enough for you either.

[slackmaster]

29. As opposed to a one-term US Senator in his early 40s?

Or someone whose experience at being a chief executive consists of being the official spouse of a President?

But hey, he's white...

He's got about the same amount of European blood as Barack Obama does. But if you point that out in the GD-P forum you get a stern lecture about the "One Drop Rule" as it pertains to people with any quantifiable African ancestry.

Sen. Obama is permitted to self-identify as a member of a minority race. I guess Gov. Richardson's skin looks too light for him to be allowed to do the same thing. But here in SoCal, ground zero for immigration from the south, there are plenty of Latinos who are proud of that label (surely even a Canadian has heard the term "La Raza") and plenty more who will tell you that being Latino surely makes you a target for institutionalized racism.

And for the record, I supported Bill Richardson early in the race. He dropped out before the California primary, in which I voted for Barack Obama.

[iverglas]

31. excuse me

As opposed to a one-term US Senator in his early 40s?
Or someone whose experience at being a chief executive consists of being the official spouse of a President?

but I don't think you've noticed me singing the praises of either one of them. And you won't.

And I don't regard Obama as African-American in any cultural or historic sense (although I would so regard most people with any significant fraction of "black" genetic material) any more than I regard Hilary Clinton as a woman in any economic or social sense.

The fact, however, is that one of them is black and the other is female.

And nothing about them makes Mr. Backwater Governor Dilletante Diplomat actually qualified for the job.

And Richardson's skin IS white, for fuck's sake. Where did this idea come from that people descended from EUROPEANS -- we all know what "Hispanic" means, right? -- are not white??? Exactly what "minority race" are they supposed to be?

I suppose he might have some fraction of Amerindian genetic material in the half of him that is Hispanic-American, and culturally/ethnically his Hispanic half is a minority. And we can keep pretending that's equivalent to being a woman or an African-American if we want.


We all know who I was plumping for. That good old middle-aged white guy, Joe Biden. The fact that he was the best person for the job doesn't obviate the fact that a whole lot of people are likely to decline to vote for either Obama or Clinton because of what they are, and for an assortment of other reasons having to do with being misogynist, racist, right-wing assholes. And if they want to say it's about gunz, well, it just kinda fits nicely.

[slackmaster]

33. Hispanic or Latino generally means a blend of European and Native American

For your information, and a lot of people would call Governor Richardson's skin "brown".

The fact, however, is that one of them is black and the other is female.

I regard Senator Obama as mixed-race, but got chewed out in GD-P for saying so. I work with several people from India who have far darker skin, albeit Caucasian features. All you are doing here, iverglas, is playing word games in a facile attempt to define one kind of mixed-race person as more worthy of claiming victim status than another kind of mixed-race person.

The fact is that all three people we are discussing are well educated, successful by any measure, and highly accomplished individuals. Far more so than any participant in this forum.

[bossy22]

41. joe Buyden

"and nothing about them makes Mr. Backwater Governor Dilletante Diplomat actually qualified for the job"
no one is qualified for the job- the job is like almost nothing else out there in america....you learn as you go...


but what makes you think joe biden is so qualified- cause he was a senator for 3 decades? Senators are not really executives and the president of the United States is an executive.
Also, though i like Joe biden's views on many issues and i think he could make an excellent president- he often sticks his foot in his mouth when speaking...and that could be a major problem.

[iverglas]

42. there's just no doing it

Having a conversation here ...

no one is qualified for the job- the job is like almost nothing else out there in america....you learn as you go...

The post of mine you have replied to is in a direct line of posts going back to this one that I replied to:

That truth hurts....Not only on the issue of civil rights, but their would be NO, debate about "experience" when it comes to Bill Richardson.

I didn't raise the issue of "experience". I responded to an assertion of Richardson's superior "experience".


but what makes you think joe biden is so qualified- cause he was a senator for 3 decades?

I didn't say anything at all about Biden being "qualified". I said something about Biden as an entirely separate thought after my comments on Obama, Clinton and Richardson. I said "he was the best person for the job". I have reasons for saying that, which I suppose could be characterized as him being "qualified": he's stupendously smart, he's sincere, he's trustworthy, he can explain policies and programs (like healthcare) in understandable ways, and what he says is sensible. And yup, he knows his foreign policy and affairs like few people in this world. I've watched him on and off since the Thomas hearings, and he's the Canadian choice. Kiss o' death.

And I think he sticks his foot in his mouth when speaking about as often as Howard Dean screams. ;)

[SteveM]

44. Not excused: counting blood "fractions" went out with Jim Crow. (nt)

[iverglas]

45. if you want to call me a racist

Man up and do it.

If you want to comment on something I actually said, feel free.

If you want to pretend that my responding to assertions that Richardson is "not white" by saying

I suppose he might have some fraction of Amerindian genetic material in the half of him that is Hispanic-American, and culturally/ethnically his Hispanic half is a minority. And we can keep pretending that's equivalent to being a woman or an African-American if we want.

is in some, any, way related to Jim Crow, you'll be wanting to show your work.

[SteveM]

52. Most supporters of Jim Crow claimed: "I don't have a racist bone in my body."

I didn't believe them. I don't believe you.

Some times high & mighty liberals-of-old don't know when they step in it. You stepped in it.

Clean off your shoes. Your parsing of percentages has that ol' time stink.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[facepalm]

37. yes, i've been saying it pretty much since forever

Bill Richardson was the correct answer this time around.

[facepalm]

39. hate to break it to you....

indeed; is it not an amazing coincidence

how the right-wing old white guy will get the votes of the gun-suckers, and the woman and the black guy won't?

Truly an amazement. Truly.

To most Americans, John McCain is considered a moderate. I know my share of conservatives and most dislike McCain because he is seen as way too unreliable as a conservative. They didn't want him as the candidate.

Obama is perceived by me and most of my friends as a true believer in progressive causes. Which is awesome if he gets elected. Note that this hasn't happened yet.

Unfortunately, a lot of the electorate is going to be scared off by ANY candidate that is more than one standard deviation away from the center. A progressive gun grabber is tolerable in my book but anathema to gun owning independents. McCain isn't much of a conservative but conservatives will vote for him 9:1 over Obama. As for the left, there simply aren't enough of us to win elections all by ourselves.

Unlike Hillary, Obama has taken no steps to bring his politics towards the center. Hillary has been acting more conservative over the past couple of years. Unfortunately, Hillary comes across as somewhat insincere and oblivious. Obama would do well to learn a lesson from what she is attempting and how she is failing at it.

[DemOkie]

34. To most gunowners....

It would be instantly recognizable as something, if not a complete fantasy, then at the least insanely expensive.

I've actually known Val Jr. (yes,I know it says III after his name, but his dad was always Val Sr.)
for awhile, and regarding european sporting rifles, if he says it doesn't exist, I wouldn't bet against him. BTW, this knowledge is his only redeeming feature.

What this sort of thing does for this gun owning Democratic member, is to further underscore why I'm voting for Sen. Obama this Tuesday , and hopefully again in November. Sen. Clinton has a long history of using working class gun owners as a foil, usually against said folks. While I am concerned about some aspects of Sen. Obama's positions of guns, I hold out hope that he is open minded enough to see the right kind of change in our gun laws. OTOH, this could be like re-marriage, the triumph of hope over experience.

[Wickerman]

28. Here is an interesting link on the topic

Can't verify how accurate it is; you guys know more about weapons than I will ever aspire to, but he brings up a lot of info I haven't quite seen covered here.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Clinton_mailings_gun_gaffe.html

[iverglas]

32. y'know ...

I just thought it was a pretty picture. Pleasing to the eye. The kind of thing that advertisers like to have in their visuals. Shiny objects. Things that won't put people off. Kinda like how people selling soap put their product in sparkling clean surroundings with expensive appliances in the background that nobody buying the soap can afford ... and don't come to my kitchen to make their commercials ...

[Wickerman]

35. Or to make you sleep

I've been craving some Lunesta ever since they started using that moth that flies around and gives good sleep.

[iverglas]

36. well that's just fine

Here's me, no sleep since Sunday morning, trying to finish a job by end of day that was due at end of March ... and you're giving me sleep-inducing moths.

Ta very much, eh??

[Irreverend IX]

50. trying to finish a job by end of day that was due at end of March ...

I wonder if there's a connection between this and the time spent writing 2000-word essays in response to two-line posts and rooting through other members' posting histories.

[bossy22]

40. interesting

wouldnt surprise me

[Tejas]

46. thanks for the link, but $2,200 BUCKS???

That's ELEVEN CASES of ammo for my AK's!
11,000rds would last me all summer........(that is, unless Canada starts feeling froggy).


By the way, the image could've possibly been oops'd at the printer. Bet a few of those mailouts show up on eBay.

[Wickerman]

47. What I found curious was the gun which, with symbolism intact

pointed at Obama. What was the graphic artist really trying to say about Obama?

[Tejas]

48. I'd have to see it in person

Sort've confusing as to why they used a cropped version of the larger pic, seems they could've been at least a bit more creative. Otherwise, I don't really see it as "pointed" at him, more like an amatuer layout artist at work.