AK-47ish guns in the news

[iverglas]

I'm thinking this needs to be a regular feature, eh? Nothing about Iraq or Congo or Beirut; we'll stick to North America, with maybe a taste of Europe or the Antipodes thrown in from time to time.


We've all seen the latest news:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/06/AR2008050600936.html

Police said they think Aaron P. Jackson, 24, used an AK-47-style assault rifle to fatally shoot his daughter, Nicole Aaron Jackson, 2 1/2 , his son, Aaron Neptune Jackson, 1 1/2 , and their mother, Latasha Nicole Thomas, 23, before committing suicide at the Walt Lou Trailer Park along Route 1, north of Fredericksburg. Both children were found alive in their cribs with gunshot wounds to the head and were rushed to hospitals -- one by helicopter -- but did not survive.

Well, let's look at a few more.


http://www.kirotv.com/news/16173600/detail.html

Man Shot At Burien Bar Dies From Injuries
POSTED: 7:07 am PDT May 6, 2008

Sheriff's deputies say Laumea was shot once in the head with an AK-47 early Sunday at the MVP Sports Bar where he used to work in Burien. According to witnesses, he was trying to stop a man who stormed into the bar and started shooting at the ceiling.

http://www.courant.com/news/custom/topnews/hcu-lafountain-0509,0,6330889.story

Mother Of Two Sentenced To 55 Years For Murder
2:41 PM EDT, May 9, 2008

Prosecutor Scott Murphy said LaFountain was the ring leader of the crime that involved three others - all men about half her age. She told the others about drugs, jewelry and cash she thought was in the apartment and so provided the other defendants the information that led the four to the apartment that Daniel Davis Sr. shared with his daughter.

Davis, 52, was fatally wounded when Sean Bodamer, 19, shot twice into the apartment with an AK-47 assault rifle. The gunfire wounded Davis's friend Todd Hall. Bodamer entered a guilty plea earlier this year and is serving a 42-year sentence.

Well, old news, since the actual crime was in 2006.


http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=89207

Updated:5/9/2008 8:06:24 PM

PHOENIX, AZ -- Fromer Cleveland Browns defensive back Dyshod Carter was one of five people arrested on May 6 as an alleged member of a cocaine trafficking organization based here.

A fully loaded AK-47 assault rifle was found in the rear passenger area of the vehicle driven by Carter, according to the press release.

They were going to use it as a hood ornament.


Another slightly oldie, reporting on sentence:
http://www.thestate.com/local/story/398744.html

Posted on Thu, May. 08, 2008
Man guilty in fatal flea-market shooting

A Lexington County jury Wednesday found 19-year-old Samuel Harmon guilty of murder in the 2006 Barnyard Flea Market shooting death of Denise Boykin.

11th Circuit Solicitor Donnie Myers said Harmon fired 24 rounds from an AK-47 assault rifle, killing Boykin and seriously injuring another man, who were inside a car.

But still a goodie.


http://kob.com/article/stories/S437201.shtml?cat=519

Posted at: 05/07/2008 04:06:46 PM
Concerned student tips off UNM police in gun bust

According to a criminal complaint, a concerned student contacted police after hearing 19-year-old Kevin Boyar talking about recent school shooting and saying how he could do a better job. The student was also concerned after seeing Nazi-type posters and literature in Boyar's dorm room.

It was at Boyar's mother's home in northeast Albuquerque that detectives actually found the four weapons. ... Those weapons include a 12-gauge shotgun, an AK-47 assault rife, a Russian made bolt action rifle, and a .22 caliber rifle.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2008/05/07/0507gun.html

Man charged in firing of AK-47
Wednesday, May 07, 2008

A 21-year-old man was charged with aggravated assault for firing an AK-47 in front of his Westgate neighbors over a marijuana plant.

And just slightly out of date:
http://www.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080507/FON0101/805070450/1289/FONnews

Posted May 7, 2008
Ripon man, 52, accused of possessing illegal shotgun, faces six years in prison

Jason Perry, 18, was killed at the home after his best friend, Evan Tolsma, 19, of Brandon, accidentally shot him in the head with an AK47 assault rifle, according to the criminal complaint.

Oops. Spillover:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/115626

May 6, 2008 - 9:00PM
Phoenix gun dealer tied to Mexican arms ring

The owner of a north Phoenix gun store has been charged with knowingly selling AK-47 style rifles and other weapons to front men who were supplying a major arms smuggling ring that ferried the weapons into Mexico, Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard said Tuesday.

George Iknadosian, 46, owner of X Caliber Guns, knowingly sold the weapons to "straw" buyers hired by two other men, who resold them to drug and human smuggling gangs, Goddard said.

More than 600 weapons traced to X Caliber, mostly assault rifles, were sold to the arms smugglers and wound up in Mexico, Goddard said.

... Many of the guns sold at X Caliber were later traced to crimes committed in Mexico, including murder, said Bill Newell, special agent in charge of the Phoenix office of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Not too long ago:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-plumbing-shootup_both_20apr20,1,1407664.story

Suspect in Far South Side slaying with AK-47 charged after shootout
6:10 AM CDT, April 20, 2008

A 39-year-old man has been charged with using an AK-47 asault rifle to murder a man inside a Far South Side plumbing business and then using the weapon to shoot at police.

http://cbs2.com/local/Compton.Shootout.Gun.2.712103.html

Apr 30, 2008 6:17 am US/Pacific
Police Find AK-47-Type Gun After Compton Shootout

COMPTON, Calif. Deputies recovered a high-caliber weapon that was used in a shootout between sheriff's deputies and a gunman in Compton on Tuesday night. Eleven people have been detained for questioning, according to authorities.

During the search, authorities found a high-caliber assault rifle, an AK-47-type weapon believed to have been used during the shootout.

Castano said the gunman fired several rounds at deputies patrolling an area "where there has been a lot of activity." The deputies returned fire and the gunman fled, he said.

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/news.php?viewStory=59757

Saturday, May 10, 2008
Police say alleged cocaine dealer tried to buy AK-47

A man police say is a cocaine dealer and a gang member was arrested in Antioch for allegedly attempting to buy a fully automatic, AK-47 machine gun from undercover officers within 1,000 feet of Cole Elementary School.

“Initially, he wanted to speak to an arms dealer,” Metro Police spokesperson Don Aaron said. “He wanted to talk to someone who could get their hands on weaponry because he wanted a fully automatic machine gun.”

Aaron said it was unclear why Maclin wanted a machine gun. Metro Police then involved the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to furnish a machine gun for police to use. Police reports show Maclin took possession of the AK-47 briefly from police, paying for it with 6.5 grams of crack cocaine. He was immediately arrested on weapons and drug charges.

He wanted it to hang over his mantel. Or shoot skeet.


This makes two for Palm Beach, I think:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasurecoast/content/tcoast/epaper/2008/04/22/0422slak47.html

AK-47 raises ruckus in Port St. Lucie neighborhood
Tuesday, April 22, 2008

PORT ST. LUCIE — Police arrested a man after he and a friend allegedly fired several rounds from an AK-47 into the ground on the side of the road and in a residential neighborhood.

When police stopped Conran, he said he had two firearms in the car, the AK-47 and a Colt .357 revolver, both owned by another friend, a 37-year-old Port St. Lucie man. The AK-47 was found behind the passenger seat, and the unloaded revolver under the passenger seat.

Conran, who was on probation, was arrested on charges of possession of a concealed firearm and probation violation.

Florida. The place not to be.
http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080423/BREAKINGNEWS/80423026

Teen arrested on charge of threatening brother with AK-47
April 23, 2008

A 15-year-old boy was arrested Tuesday night after police say he threatened his older brother with an assault rifle.

He and his brother were arguing for an unknown reason about 9 p.m. in the 300 block of Wilson Green Boulevard, Bergeron said. The teen then took an AK-47 from a bedroom and pointed it at his 17-year-old brother. Police were called and the 15-year-old boy ran away before officers arrived.

Why hasn't anybody ever told these fools that AK-47ish things are just no good for their jobs?

Okay, I'm bored, so that will have to be enough AK-47ish things to drool over for now.

Let's just close with this one, though.
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080411/FRONTPAGE/804110302/0/NEWS04

Judge to rule who keeps AK-47
Man tries to reclaim guns from the state
April 11, 2008 - 7:08 am

Scott Buchanan has written angry, aggressive and paranoid accounts of his real or imagined dealings with the police, and in 2005 he was found incompetent to stand trial on criminal charges, according to court records. But that doesn't make him too dangerous to own guns, two mental health experts told a judge yesterday.

"It was anxiety-producing that he had these views and that he had these guns," said Dr. James Adams, the state's chief forensic psychiatrist who evaluated Buchanan. "I understand people would be anxious about that. But I couldn't conclude that that reached the level of dangerousness."

In a unanimous opinion, the justices concluded that Buchanan's incompetence to stand trial did not necessarily make him legally unfit to own guns. They returned the case to Concord District Court to determine instead whether Buchanan is a danger to himself or others.

Based on those writings and interviews with Buchanan, Adams and a second expert called by the defense, Dr. Eric Mart, concluded that Buchanan suffers from exaggerated paranoia toward authority. They also said he considers gun ownership an important part of his identity.

Attorney Penny Dean of Concord, who is defending Buchanan, urged Boyle to rely on the conclusions of both experts and not on "emotional" arguments made by Gainor. "There is no way we can predict what someone is going to do tomorrow," she said. Speculation is not grounds for denying someone his constitutional right to have guns, she said.

I wonder whether the police in his neighbourhood have heard of Mayerthorpe, Alberta ...

[bossy22]

1. the evil AK-47

its comming right for us!!!!

[iverglas]

2. nononono -- the *non-existent* AK-47

Everybody knows that criminals don't want/use AK-47ish firearms. Where have you been??

[ManiacJoe]

4. Who is your "everyone"?

[bossy22]

9. so you are arguing with anecdotal evidence

wow and just in the other forum you were arguing against it

lets ban it...because if AK-47's arent there anymore there wont be any killings

what you show me is anecdotal evidence...its clear that long guns arent really used in crime- just because you can find instances where they were doesnt mean they are a problem

[iverglas]

15. I'm arguing ... what?

I didn't see any argument in my post. Did you??


lets ban it...because if AK-47's arent there anymore there wont be any killings

Well, if that's your position, then you go ahead and run with it. Seems kinda ... well, really ... dumb to me, but if it's yours, you must like it.


what you show me is anecdotal evidence...its clear that long guns arent really used in crime- just because you can find instances where they were doesnt mean they are a problem

Anecdotal evidence is evidence ... that these things ARE used in crime. And the fact that there are instances where they are used -- in crime, in homicide, and by people involved in serious crimes in order to facilitate their behaviours -- hardly means they are NOT a problem now, does it?

[bossy22]

16. they are a

minor problem- sort of like how a fly buzzing around your house is

well sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...in your case sometimes it is a "big black d*ck" (to quote george carlin)

[ManiacJoe]

3. Since you singled out one rifle type,

what was the point you are trying to make? (You didn't state one, and my crystal ball is in the shop.)

Please note that the police are notoriously bad at identifying weapons when talking to the press, and that the reporters tend to be clueless on the subject. This may or may not affect your news clippings.

[iverglas]

7. welcome to the Guns forum

I believe you drop in from time to time, but apparently not often enough to be part of the ongoing conversation that this post is part of.

Search for benEzra and rifle, and you should get an idea.

These things just aren't something that anybody should bother their little heads about, you see, because they only account for 0.000001% of homicides or some damn thing.

So obviously, all the bad guys who seem to be really rather fond of them just like them for, uh, their decorative beauty.

[bossy22]

10. you still havent shown

any stats that these guns are used in many crimes...all you do is show anecdotal evidence and say benezra isnt giving you all the facts

the fact is AK-47's and long guns in general are not used in crime generally- that doesnt mean that you can find cases about them being used, but compared to other weapons they arent common

[ManiacJoe]

11. Hopefully you just forgot the sarcasm tags.

If that is really what you take way from these discussions, you are missing out on a lot.

However, if you see something inherently evil about this particular type of rifle -- as opposed to other types of rifles -- feel free to point it out.

[iverglas]

13. yes, and if I see the man in the moon tonight

I'll introduce you to him.

Your asking for such an introduction would be as relevant to this discussion, and as respectful to me, as what you did say:

However, if you see something inherently evil about this particular type of rifle -- as opposed to other types of rifles -- feel free to point it out.

If you want to argue with a moron, why don't you go somewhere where you're likely to find such a person?

Sorry to disappoint, but it isn't me.

[ManiacJoe]

18. Why bother to start a thread

if you have no desire to continue the conversation or even clarify whatever point you were trying to make?

[zanne]

86. I think that Iverglas has more than clarified her point, Maniac.

1)The AK-47 that you guns insist doesn't exist in this country is used quite often and

2)Alot of you guys actually want one and think that you deserve to have the right to own one!

I've never seen such a bunch of self-satisfied people with a sense of entitlement as the gunners here. The rest of society has to obey the laws, but you think you should be able to do whatever you want. You're like spoiled, selfish children who demand their toys.

[ManiacJoe]

102. She did not, but thank you for doing so.

1)The AK-47 that you guns insist doesn't exist in this country is used quite often and
Two problems here. (1) True (automatic) AK-47s (really AKMs) are very rare in this country, but the semi-auto versions are relatively common in legal hands. (2) As Iverglas points out, there are not commonly used in crime (mostly because they are rifles, and rifles are not commonly used in crime). However, they do make sensational headlines.

2)A lot of you guys actually want one and think that you deserve to have the right to own one!
I DO have the right to own one. Presumably, you also have that right. I already have one (semi-auto version). It's fun to shoot, extremely reliable, relatively cheap to buy; the ammo is relatively cheap. The wood parts on mine even look pretty. There is nothing special about AK-style rifles except their look and their history. Neither of those features make them any more or less deadly than any other rifle.

I've never seen such a bunch of self-satisfied people with a sense of entitlement as the gunners here. The rest of society has to obey the laws, but you think you should be able to do whatever you want. You're like spoiled, selfish children who demand their toys.
You obviously don't understand our position. We like people (gunnies and non-gunnies) who obey the laws, we just want reasonable laws. Laws that ban items due to their cosmetic features make no sense. Laws that restrict the rights of law-abiding people while granting nothing in return make no sense.

Care to state what you think makes AK-style rifles to special that they need to be singled out and banned?

[zanne]

104. My opinion stands.

I've heard your argument many times before from many different gun people. What's strange is that you all use the same language and the same talking points. It's almost as if you get your information and your ideas for counter-argument from the same places. Could that be?

[benEzra]

105. Er, perhaps it's because we actually own the guns you're talking about...

and know how they work? I own a gun you'd call an "AK-47", and as a result I know firsthand how laughable the hysteria about the "AK menace" is.

The fact that rifles are so rarely used in criminal violence isn't an NRA talking point AFAIK, but comes straight from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports.

FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 2006
Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html

Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

I extracted that info from Table 20 myself, by summing the columns in Excel. But the recognition of that fact goes much further back in the literature on the gun issue. From the FOUNDER OF WHAT IS NOW THE BRADY CAMPAIGN, Pete Shields:

"(O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. Rifles and shotguns are not the problem; they are not concealable." (Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die--People Do, Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48).

At the time he said that, the AR-15 had been on the civilian market for two decades, the Ruger mini-14 was selling like hotcakes, the M1 carbine (both fixed-stock and folding models) was well into its fourth decade as a popular plinking and HD gun, the M1 Garand and Springfield M1A were popular target guns, and so on. And rifles are no more of a crime problem now than they were then, per the FBI, the DOJ, the Law Enforcement Officers Killed or Assaulted data, or the BATFE stats.

FWIW, most NRA materials I've seen on the issue is thoroughly wrapped up in its Old Media paradigm, and its 1950's-esque emphasis on "hunting" and "sportsmen" and combative rhetoric, which is asinine IMHO. While it is true that you can use civilian AK's with 5-round hunting magazines to hunt coyotes, hogs, and small deer, most gun owners are not hunters, making that justification irrelevant for most of us. If I ever take up hunting, it will likely be with my SAR-1 ("AK" to you), but I am a nonhunter.

[maxidivine]

107. That's because it's a technical discussion

And you clearly don't understand the subject. As much as you may want it to be a public policy to not allow certain guns based on their history or appearance, you really don't understand that they are actually considerably less deadly than nearly every other rifle cartridge in the world.

The problem is that you are fundamentally unable to have a serious conversation about them because you don't understand how they work, you don't understand their many legitimate uses, and it seems that almost all of your information on firearms comes from hollywood, the media, and anti-gun politicians and political groups. None of which has any interest in educating people or having an educated discussion.

Since it's such a technical discussion, the arguments will certainly sound pretty similiar, because they are based in fact, not the ban-flavor of the week.

[benEzra]

63. 2.91%, actually (for all rifles combined). A fact that is incontrovertible.

All rifles combined account for roughly half as many murders in the United States annually as as shoes and bare hands, and a small fraction of the number committed with knives.

Fact is, the "bad guys" rarely use rifles of any type. But apparently you are having trouble with the definition of "rare" as it applies to statistics.

Use of a civilian AK lookalike in a violent crime in the United States is between a two-sigma and a three-sigma event. Don't tell me you don't understand that.

[SteveM]

113. Ha! Refuting your own argument! For the sake of clarity...

Let's look at the terms used by the various sources you post:

WaPo: "AK-47-style assault rifle" What is it? Is this full auto?
kirotv: "AK-47" Is this full auto?
courant: "AK-47 assault rifle." Is this full auto?
WKYL: "AK-47 assault rifle" Is this full auto?
thestate: "AK-47 assault rifle" Is this full auto?
kob.com: "AK-47 assault rifle" Is this full auto?
palmbeach: "AK-47" Is this full auto?
fdlreporter: "AK-47" Is this full auto?
eastvalleytribune: "AK-47 style rifles" conflated with "mostly assault rifles" Are these full auto?
chicagotribune: "AK-47 assault rifle" Is this full auto?
cbs2: "high-caliber assault rifle, an AK-47 type weapon" Conflated terms in same sentence and mis-
described as "high-caliber" Is this full-auto?
nashvillecitypaper: "full automatic AK 47 machine gun" WOW! Mostly got it right!
palmbeach: "AK-47" Is this full auto?
Tallahassee: "assault rifle" Is this full auto?
concordmonitor: "AK-47" Is this full auto?

MSM persistently gets it wrong and has no intention of correcting themselves.

[iverglas]

117. for the sake of lots of clarity

Who the fuck cares?

[SteveM]

143. So much for logic as a means to define and clarify terms (nt)

[TPaine7]

5. Therefore what?

What should we do about it?

What is your recommended solution?

What is your point?

[bossy22]

12. no use asking that

she is just trying to get us angry

[iverglas]

14. cheeses

Just trying to get you angry.

Somebody seems to have a rather inflated estimate of his place in the universe.

Is it actually that easy, though? Sheesh, who knew.

[bossy22]

17. i know my place in the universe

its on a small island off the coast of NY

[virginia mountainman]

6. Odd, mine have never caused any mayhem like that?!?

Or is it just CRIMINALS???

Hmmm, their one of mine is....on the couch....resting, and building up strength for "all the mayhem it can cause"...According to Iverglas and the news.



BTW, for those of you that start screaming "AK 47" it is NOT....it is a semi-auto version of the AK47's big brother..the RPK....And it is proudly owned by a Liberal Democrat...

EDIT Spelling.

Me thinks "kalashnikitty" would approve!

[greenvpi]

20. Huh?

> And it is proudly owned by a Liberal Democrat...

Impossible paradox. Of course it is not owned by a Democrat. Any real Democrat would not have, much less admit, to such a thing. Nice lie you got caught in. Next time try to make-up a story more believeable.

[bossy22]

21. who died

and made you god?

i own one of those and i am a democrat...infact i have a whole post dedicated to why i want obama as president

ooo and i also will be getting one of these when i graduate college in 5 day


parents decided they would get me a gift cause im graduating with high honors :)

[bossy22]

23. ohh btw 2

i got one of these up here at college with me


and one of these sits in my room up at college too


ooo and my apartment-mate owns one of these thats in his room- it has a longer barrel though


....we also have many more...actually we have more than a dozen....but hey our apartment looks like any other college kids apartment

[ManiacJoe]

24. How well does the folding stock hold up

on the tantal? The shoulder pad seems small and thus less comfortable for extended use.

[bossy22]

25. well its not a real tantal

its a wasr with a foldable stock, i couldnt find any other pic of it....its a nice gun...uncomfortable though to shoot many rounds through

[benEzra]

85. Nice!

Not only an excellent rifle, but an excellent optic, and a damn good light to boot.

[maxidivine]

108. I'm turning green

with envy! That is beautiful! They aren't getting you the whole package are they, because if so, that's a hell of a graduation present!

I love my CMMG, but it will take some work to get it where yours will be out of the box.

[bossy22]

22. ooo btw

welcome the gungeon...where you will realize that many of your fellow democrats own firearms of all types- including military style

you can say we are "pro-choice" in more way then one :)

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

29. and a real member of DU

knows and abides by the rules.

[SteveM]

114. What? The 1/3 of gun-owners who are Democrats are liars? Unbelieveable.

[hollowdweller]

8. Rednecks round here love AK47's and Pit bulls.

I prefer Ruger Single Actions.

[bossy22]

26. so do the rednecks by me

all 5 of them lol

[zanne]

88. And the fact that you're proud of that...

Means that you're a very sick man.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. Thanks for showing how rare they are.

If not for your post, I would have thought these crimes were more common, but since you had to post stuff from 2 years ago they must be exceedingly rare and absolutely no cause for alarm.

David

[iverglas]

28. "no cause for alarm"

Not for you, if you so choose.

The people who have been shot in the head with them, and the people whose neighbourhoods have been terrorized with them, well, they might feel different.

And if you really think that the odd tale I found in news reports on the net is the sum total of the use of these things in crime and to facilitate crime in the last month, well, I have a lot of stuff you'd probably be interested in buying.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. Do you think that people who have been shot in the head with them

are more alarmed than people shot in the head with a crossbow? I'm betting the people shot with the crossbow are more alarmed. I certainly would be.

David

[bossy22]

38. so more

anecdotal evidence- but what about the numbers, the percentage of them used in crime- the amount of traces done on them- all of this evidence leads to the conclusion that they are a minor crime problem in the grand scheme of things

all you have for evidence is stories and a dozen news counts

[iverglas]

40. all I wanna know is

Why do the charming characters in these tales want these things?

I tend to assume that even criminals have reasons for the things they do.

You need to go find them and tell them they have made unsound choices, I guess.

[bossy22]

42. the reason they want these is not as complicated as you think

they want them purely for the reasons we want to buy a toyota or buy Johnson and Johnson brand stuff- marketing....AK-47's are "marketed" in the entertainment business- its the most well-known gun in the world...they usually dont know anything else-

in reality they get it for usually the same reasons law abiding people get it- cause they look cool...not becasue they are good at killing- but cause it looks cool and its all they know

there are criminals out there that use M1 Garands- so does that mean the M1 Garand needs to be banned because criminals use them? does that mean M1 garands are the best gun for their jobs because they use it?

the fallacy in here is that criminals choose AK-47 based on an intelligent cost-benefit analysis and after studying the specs of the gun...there is no real useful reason they buy these

so what happens if these things are banned- and they let say- turn to M1A's- a much more powerful semi-auto firearm- is that a good thing?- i doubt it

you are seeing correlations and believing that there are some rational reasons behind these based on their criminal enterprise

[ManiacJoe]

45. The reasons for the law-abiding are quite simple.

The common reasons for wanting a AK-style rifle include:
- fabulous reliability
- ergonomic design
- light weight
- reasonable accuracy out to 300 yards
- decent hunting round for small to medium game, similar to the .30-30

Range ammo is relatively cheap, and the rifles are fun for target shooting.
The hard part is finding one with good wood and and a good finish so that it looks good.

My guesses for the criminal preference would be
- cheap price
- fabulous reliability
- light weight
- relatively cheap ammo
- For a rifle it is relatively short, easier (but not easy) concealment?

However, lots of non-AK rifles match the above description.

[iverglas]

46. and, well,

My guesses for the criminal preference would be
- cheap price
- fabulous reliability
- light weight
- relatively cheap ammo
- For a rifle it is relatively short, easier (but not easy) concealment?

... accommodating criminals by making things that fulfil their wish list readily available, that's just a swell idea, eh?

[bossy22]

47. selective reading?

"However, lots of non-AK rifles match the above description."

... accommodating criminals by making things that fulfil their wish list readily available, that's just a swell idea, eh?
ahhh lets ban them- a criminal or terrorist might use it....sorry your going to have to do better than that-

but i never took you for someone who would use GWB tactics like that

[iverglas]

48. of course you didn't

but i never took you for someone who would use GWB tactics like that

That won't stop you from making baseless false accusations to that effect though, eh?

[bossy22]

49. oo baseless

i think this is a baseball game with many bases- 4 to be exact....homerun.....


okay...lets see, what you said in so many words was that AK-47's should be banned because criminals might use them, sounds alot like GWB when he says that we need to give up our civil liberties caues the terrorists might use them against us

its taking away rights because of a small threat, in the promise of false security

yes it is a GWB tactic and right now im on 2nd base...care to get me home?

[iverglas]

50. let's see, let's see, let's see ...

lets see, what you said in so many words was that AK-47's should be banned because criminals might use them

Too bad you can't quote those words, eh?

Where I'm at, which happens to be where matters to me, they ARE banned (well, not really; the ones we're talking about would be "restricted", I assume), for a variety of reasons.

I don't have to present any reason why they should be banned. And I haven't. I actually don't say what should or shouldn't be done in the US, except to the extent it obviously impacts where I am (which unrestricted private sales and unenforced/unenforceable straw purchaser laws do). I've said repeatedly that I find the whole "assault weapon ban" thing in the US to be kinda, well, misdirected.

So what would you like to do with those imaginary words, and your baseless accusation, now?

[bossy22]

51. still sittin on 2nd, should i steal 3rd?

"I've said repeatedly that I find the whole "assault weapon ban" thing in the US to be kinda, well, misdirected."

you putting words in your own mouth? cause thats the first time ive heard that from you

[iverglas]

53. and y'know what?

thats the first time ive heard that from you

I don't actually give a crap.

If you want to assert otherwise, present your proof.

[benEzra]

65. I never would have guessed that...

and I honestly thought that your continued attempts to exaggerate "assault weapon" crime were attempts to post hoc justify bans on same. Glad to find I was wrong.

[maxidivine]

69. "I don't have to present any reason why they should be banned."

Because in your country, it's up to the subjects to prove that they 'need' an object, whereas here, the government NEEDS to prove that restricting or banning objects will have a positive impact on our society with at most minor negative impact.

Unfortunately for people with your mindset, there is no reason to ban a low-powered rifle like the AK series, because they aren't responsible for a wave of crime.

[iverglas]

71. ignorant much?

I don't have to present any reason why they should be banned. And I haven't. I actually don't say what should or shouldn't be done in the US ...

I don't have to present any reason why they should be banned BECAUSE I AM NOT PROPOSING THAT THEY BE BANNED. Would you like it in bigger letters?

I am not
(a) proposing ANYTHING as regards the US -- the place where all events in the news reports I cited in this thread occurred; or
(b) proposing ANYTHING as regards where I live, in this thread.

I proposed NOTHING in this thread.


Because in your country, it's up to the subjects to prove that they 'need' an object

We all know that your only intent here was to be offensive. The law of unintended consequences operates, though. The effect of your words is to demonstrate your profound ignorance of the world around you.

Of course, one knows that you don't actually believe that Canadian citizens are "subjects". No one living in the 21st century could possibly believe that.

But you apparently do actually believe that the onus of proving that an impairment of a right or freedom is impermissible lies with the individual in Canada.

And that is the evidence of your profound ignorance.

Your attempted summary of constitutional doctrines in the US regarding impairments of rights and freedoms is a tad sketchy, so I'm not at all sure that you aren't almost equally ignorant of how things work in your own world.


Unfortunately for people with your mindset ...

I just love this stuff.

People with my mindset ... who have fought for and have now got:

- recognition of the right of same-sex couples to marry
- recognition of the right of women to make reproductive choices without interference by the state (and to have access to public funding to exercise those choices on equal footing with people choosing any other medical care)
- recognition of the right of gay men and lesbians not to be discriminated against in the private sector and in the provision of any public programs and services
- recognition of the right of incarcerated people to vote in elections

Not to mention how nobody would even think of trying to corral us into "free speech zones" when we felt like telling our head of government ... or your head of state ... what we thought of them.

People with my mindset ... leading the way and setting the example that you may one day be able to follow. We, of course, wish you well and look forward to the day when you are as free and enjoy as many rights as fully as we do!

[maxidivine]

82. Yep, hang your hat on gay rights

Although that is not what we are talking about here. Be as offensive as you please.

Are you like this towards your family as well?

[iverglas]

84. ha!

Are you like this towards your family as well?

If any member of my family behaved the way you and your chums behave, I wouldn't have spoken to them at all in the last 30 years or so.


Yep, hang your hat on gay rights
Although that is not what we are talking about here.

Whatever, eh?

What I was talking about was your ignorant (I'm being charitable) use of the word "subjects" to refer to citizens/residents of Canada. If you didn't want to talk about it, you could always have refrained from doing it. Eh?


Be as offensive as you please.

Uh huh. And now, because you have said "Be as offensive as you please", we all sit back and cross our fingers and hope that someone actually believes I was being offensive, despite the complete lack of evidence to that effect.

You, you make reference to "animal marriage" in the same breath as same-sex marriage, and untruthfully refer to the citizens/residents of another country as "subjects", and you, you tell someone else to be as offensive as s/he pleases.

Well hey, I guess you thought it was good advice and decided to follow it.

Sure beats saying anything meaningful / on point, eh?

Fuckin Eh.

[zanne]

89. Isn't it time for the Rush Limbaugh Hour?

You better run to the radio now!

[SteveM]

115. Never watch/hear him. But you seem to be up on the time. Why is that?

[maxidivine]

133. Because I called out iverglas?

on contributing NOTHING meaningful to any discussion since I've been here? and dancing around every question, and whenever someone nails her down she either disappears from the thread or she makes some claim about what she's done or what seh's been through?

Sorry for calling a duck a duck.

Maybe that's what's wrong with our party today.

[iverglas]

134. I quake

in my mother's army boots.

And continue to be amused at how distressed some people do get when they see facts.

[zanne]

91. Don't you feel at all creepy when you realize...

You're killing small animals with an AK47 because it makes you feel good?

[ManiacJoe]

96. Don't you mean, because they taste good? (n/t)

[zanne]

100. You'e a riot, Maniac. nt

[benEzra]

103. Most hunters I know don't hunt because "killing animals makes them feel good."

Or are you focusing on what the gun looks like?

I don't personally hunt, but if I do ever take up deer hunting, it would probably be with this gun, since it's what I own:



which is absolutely identical in every way except looks to this (Ruger Mini Thirty, short-range deer rifle):

Same caliber, same rate of fire, same accuracy, same magazine capacity (5 round hunting magazines shown).

The only difference is looks. The Mini Thirty wears a 19th-century, Mauser style stock; the SAR-1 doesn't.

[krispos42]

30. Girl gang killed neighbour with 'internet' bomb

Girl gang killed neighbour with 'internet' bomb

Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent and Lucy Cockcroft
Last Updated: 3:34PM BST 10/05/2008

A gang of teenage girls may have blown up a rival's home, killing her neighbour, with a liquid bomb they researched on the internet after an argument about a boy.

The explosion collapsed three Victorian houses in north-west London, killing a resident in one property and leaving the intended target – 17-year-old Charlotte Anderson – in intensive care with severe burns.

Miss Anderson called police 10 hours before the blast on Wednesday to report that a group of girls aged 16 and 17 were causing trouble outside her house in Harrow. Another resident has claimed they were pouring a "purple and smelly" liquid through the letterbox.

Experts have told police that the volatile substance, which has not yet been identified, may have vaporised and exploded.

<more>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1942317/Girl-gang-killed-Harrow-neighbour-with-'internet'-bomb.html

[gorfle]

31. LOOK OUT! Anecdotes of the 2%

All rifles account for less homicides than hands and feet.

It's a shame you invested so much time typing over something so trivial.

[iverglas]

33. "quick! look over there! I keep telling you where to look ...

... and you keep disobeying!"

All rifles account for less homicides than hands and feet.

I'm just naughty. I won't pretend that homicides are the only bad things that happen in a society, and the only bad things done or facilitated with firearms. Including long arms. Including AK-47s.

I tend to think that the people living in the neighbourhoods where the AK-47s fired as described in those news reports might agree.

If a bullet is fired and it doesn't kill anyone, is it trivial? Ask those people.

If an organized crime / gang member keeps an AK-47 in his/her vehicle, is it trivial? Hmm. On that one, I might suggest you ask any normal, rational, decent person you might run into on the street.

[bossy22]

37. still

what does it matter if the organized gang member keeps an AK in his car or a SW .38

you again just post about incidents showing us that criem does occur with long guns- when we already know it does- but it is such a small fraction of crimes.

Yes, those people that have been in incidents when a AK-47 was used would probably feel differently about them, and if a .38 was used they would probably feel different than i on that....so what does it matter

no matter what you say, there are few incidents of crime involving AK-47's or any other long arm- judst because you can find incidents doesnt mean their common- and doesnt mean there is cause for alarm

i can find incidents when people died or got a heart attack in a dental chair from being injected with Xylocaine- but that doesnt mean there is a reason to be alarmed about the use of xylocaine- because the deaths are so rare in the grand scheme of things

[gorfle]

58. If a man gets hit by lightning, is it trivial?

I'm just naughty. I won't pretend that homicides are the only bad things that happen in a society, and the only bad things done or facilitated with firearms. Including long arms. Including AK-47s.

Yes, as we already heard, we know that all rifles, let alone assault rifles, account for less than 2% of all homicides annually. But of course then there is Iverglas who is certain that AK-47s are out there used for many, many bad things - everything except, it would seem, actually killing people.

And we've already seen that every year less than 1% of all firearms are used for all bad things that firearms are used for in addition to murder. I'm sure assault weapons make up an even smaller percentage of those 800,000 bad things.

I tend to think that the people living in the neighbourhoods where the AK-47s fired as described in those news reports might agree.

If a bullet is fired and it doesn't kill anyone, is it trivial? Ask those people.

I suppose when a guy gets hit by lightning it is small consolation that getting hit by lightning is an extraordinarily rare event. Nonetheless, it is still a trivial occurrence compared with many other methods of death.

If an organized crime / gang member keeps an AK-47 in his/her vehicle, is it trivial? Hmm. On that one, I might suggest you ask any normal, rational, decent person you might run into on the street.

If it amounts to a 1-in-a-million event, yes, it's trivial. Ask any intelligent person you might run into on the street.

[iverglas]

60. remind me

What colour is the sky over there?

And what do you use as a substitute for an ethical code?

[aikoaiko]

34. There are some gun-grabbers who will read your post and think that if all ak-ish guns were collected

and destroyed, none of those deaths or crimes would have happened.

They would be so silly.

[Tejas]

35. "some"?

I've run into folks that believe the only "assault weapons" in existence are AK's. Yes, they've heard of AR's but think only the military possesses those.


edit - possesses (sp?)

[bossy22]

36. military doesnt possess

ARs- they possess M16- police forces possess ARs

btw those people are the ones i want determining what guns should be legal
:sarcasm:

[Tejas]

99. I've met antis that don't

have a clue as to the difference.

You and I do, but for all they know the rifle they saw Jack Bauer shoot 300 rounds out of in a hallway was a 50cal.

[iverglas]

39. there might be some people who think that you are in close contact

with reality.

Your post should disabuse them of that notion.

[aikoaiko]

41. :rolls eyes:

You're so weak these days. Are you sick?

[bossy22]

43. shes not weak

she is just arguing a weak topic with little evidence

[iverglas]

44. you're right there

Just not able to do much when presented with material like:


There are some gun-grabbers who will read your post and think that if all ak-ish guns were collected
and destroyed, none of those deaths or crimes would have happened.
They would be so silly.


I mean, it just speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Nobody with a grain of sense/civility would have written it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. What does civility have to do with it?

[iverglas]

54. uh, res ipsa loquitur

Civil people do not attempt to portray those with whom they disagree as evil morons.

edit: without presenting their proof.


hahahaha hah.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. So you saying that they are out of touch with reality is ok?

But when they do it, it's uncivil. Pot meet kettle.

David

[iverglas]

56. absolutely okay!

Because I PRESENTED MY PROOF -- the post itself to which I referred:

There are some gun-grabbers who will read your post and think that if all ak-ish guns were collected and destroyed, none of those deaths or crimes would have happened.

You know and I know, and the person who wrote that knows, that it is not a representation of reality.

So it could only have been written by someone out of touch with reality ... or doing a damned good imitation of someone out of touch with reality.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. That is every bit as true as the statement that you'll like to make about us wanting to arm everyone

So I guess as long as each side keeps misrepresenting each other this will continue.


David

[iverglas]

59. the statement I'll "like to make"?

That is every bit as true as the statement that you'll like to make about us wanting to arm everyone

When will I like to make that statement?

When hell freezes over?

Now, I do say that many of you have to make that statement, as a logical inevitability from some of the things some of you do say.

If the right to possess firearms is un/inalienable, then it belongs to children, persons with mental disorders and persons with serious criminal convictions.

So of course I wouldn't actually say anybody is necessarily "wanting to arm" those people. I'd just say that people who take that position on the "right" to possess firearms have no choice but to want to let those people do what they want in that regard.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

61. The opinion shouldn't be long now.

SCOTUS will soon give us an interpretation of the 2nd amendment and we'll see. What about voting? Children can't vote, most felons can't vote. I guess that right isn't inalienable either.

David

[iverglas]

67. I guess you're right

What about voting? Children can't vote, most felons can't vote. I guess that right isn't inalienable either.

Did someone say it was??

The right to vote is a civil right -- a right that attaches to membership in a particular society, which is generally in the form of citizenship of a particular nation-state, these days. It is definitely not an inalienable right.

Next?

[aikoaiko]

68. Deny that there are dreamers who want to collect and ban ak-ish guns, but I know one from Cali.

Here is a perfect example of someone who when faced with crimes committed with AK-47-ish guns and other guns (I like that colloquialism), she wanted to collect and ban them all.

"Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., on CBS "60 Minutes": "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them -- Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in -- I would have done it."

How's that for reality? It hurts doesn't it.

edited: subject line so as to be kinder and gentler.

[iverglas]

72. why would I do that???

Deny that there are dreamers who want to collect and ban ak-ish guns

No thank you.

Was this somehow related to what you actually said? --

There are some gun-grabbers who will read your post and think that if all ak-ish guns were collected and destroyed, none of those deaths or crimes would have happened.

I'm not seeing it.


How's that for reality? It hurts doesn't it.

Oh, yeah. You are absolutely the first person to ever have cited that bumph here in the Guns forum. In fact, I'm sure this must be the first time you yourself have done it!

Still not seeing what it has to do with what you actually said:

There are some gun-grabbers who will read your post and think that if all ak-ish guns were collected and destroyed, none of those deaths or crimes would have happened.

And still seeing that as nothing but an insult that has quite plainly backfired, as my initial response to it pointed out.

Because I just can't see how anyone who was moderately intelligent and had a modicum of good faith could make a statement like that, the purpose of which is no more nor less than to portray people of different opinions as being of very subnormal intelligence.

[aikoaiko]

74. They are what they are -- if you say they have subnormal intelligence then so be it.

I didn't.

[iverglas]

75. what you said

Is that there are people who are so stupid as to have the thought you attributed to them.

There may be. I've never met any, myself. I'd think anybody that stupid would have managed to get run down by a bus long before I could meet them.

Your assertion that there are people so stupid as to read what I posted and think what you alleged they would think was yours alone. And it isn't an assertion that I see an intelligent person ever making in good faith.

[aikoaiko]

76. actually I never used the word stupid, I wrote silly as in absurd or ridiculous

But its interesting how you projected stupidity on to such hypothetical people and their beliefs.

[iverglas]

77. you could have written "purple polka dotted" as in tired out or delicious

The FACT of the matter is that you wrote:

There are some gun-grabbers who will read your post and think that if all ak-ish guns were collected and destroyed, none of those deaths or crimes would have happened.

And the FACT of the matter is that anyone who thought that would be too stupid to have survived long enough to read my post.

And an interesting fact is that you attributed this entirely stupid thought to "some gun-grabbers".

So plainly you think that such stupidity is the exclusive preserve of members of the "gun-grabbers" group, whatever it is.

Otherwise, you would have just said "some people". I would even think it possible, if it is possible that anyone could read what I posted and think what you described, that "some gun-heads" would be just as capable of doing it. They could think it ... and just not care, couldn't they?

Your statement was just an effort to portray people who disagree with you as stupid. No more, no less.

Oh, well, other than an effort to portray me as attempting to persuade someone by dishonest argument ...

[aikoaiko]

79. geez, Iverglas, you got your undies in a bunch.

If, as you claim, no one thinks "if all ak-ish guns were collected and destroyed, none of those deaths or crimes would have happened" then I really didn't actually insult anyone because they don't exist, did I?

[zanne]

87. I see you're resorting to sexism now, akoako.

You're really running out of ideas, aren't you?

[iverglas]

94. actually, I was gratified

that there was no reference to "panties". I cringe every time I hear that word.

Knickers in a knot is the correct phraseology, of course!

[maxidivine]

109. WHat?

Didn't read like sexism to me. "got your undies in a bunch" is a pretty common phrase, how do you figure it's sexist?

Or is it just wrong to use the word "undies" when speaking to a female?

Is that sexist?

[aikoaiko]

111. Well, I did attempt to make it gender neutral. Guys use the "undies" with each other.

But as it turns out, my wife said it was still sexist even with gender neutral language because it pushes the same button.

If so for you, Iverglas, or anyone else, then I apologize.

[zanne]

92. God bless her for trying.

Some people look fanatics in the eye and say "I'm going to challenge you". Someday, guns like that WILL be banned, because there's no need for them.

I admire people who stand up to huge lobbies, like the NRA, and try to make this country a better place. That reality doesn't "hurt", akoiko. It's a ray of hope.

[benEzra]

106. Trying what? To rationalize a nonsensical position?

Civilian AK's (and other small-caliber, modern-looking rifles like the AR-15, Kel-Tec SU-16, etc.) aren't commonly misused. They ARE immensely popular in this country for lawful purposes; more people own them than hunt.

We'll keep them, thanks.

[maxidivine]

110. 'huge lobbies'

You may not like this, but the NRA has a client list almost 300 million entries long. Every single U.S. citizen is one of their clients, including you! they aren't fighting to do anything but protect the right to not be defenseless against oppressors, foreign and domestic, criminal or otherwise.

Tell yourself all you want that it's a global community and that we will never be under threat of invasion, if you want to ignore thousands of years of human history and behavior and bury your little head in the sand, you go for it. It isn't a likely event, not anytime soon, but look at all the turmoil in the world today, and look at all the turbulence that is coming in the next twenty to forty years. The world in 2050 is going to look very different than it does now, and not one of us can predict what it will look like.

[zanne]

116. The NRA owns many in congress.

It is a huge lobby that buys politicians so they'll ease up on gun regulations, allowing gun manufacturers to make a bundle. And you're their little puppets.

[maxidivine]

131. Name some

Name some people the own in congress.

And I am their client, along with four million others

[zanne]

139. There's no arguing that the NRA doesn't buy politicians...

CNN Insight
The National Rifle Association: Guns And U.S. Politics
Aired May 23, 2000 - 0:30 a.m. ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLTON HESTON, NRA PRESIDENT: From my cold, dead hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN MANN, INSIGHT (voice-over): Millions of Americans vow to keep their guns and their grip on U.S. politics. The National Rifle Association - America's shooting party.

(on camera): Hello, and welcome.

That was Charlton Heston, issuing a challenge to gun control advocates in the United States. Heston may be best known as the man who played Moses in the movie "The 10 Commandments," but that was a long time ago.

Heston is no longer leading his people through the wilderness. He's leading one of the most powerful political groups in the U.S. - the National Rifle Association, committed to keeping guns easily available to just about any adult that wants them, protecting as sacred the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution which guarantees the right to bear arms.

The people of the United States have been seeing a sickening series of mass killings, several prominent ones involving young people. But the NRA and its campaign for unrestricted access to firearms may be stronger than ever. On our program today - the National Rifle Association.

We begin with CNN's Wolf Blitzer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ask any of the more than three and a half million members of the National Rifle Association about its influence, and you'll likely get the same answer.

WAYNE LAPIERRE, NRA EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT: Our strength is in people cities and towns all over this country, big and small.

BLITZER: Ask a critic about the group's strength, and you'll hear.

MIKE BARNES, HANDGUN CONTROL, INC.: They have a very vocal tiny minority of American citizens who overwhelm the majority because they are so vocal and they're so vehement. So politicians are afraid of them.

BLITZER: Founded in New York state nearly 130 years ago primarily as a sports shooting organization, the NRA has become an increasingly powerful political group over the past three decades.

Last December, Fortune magazine ranked it second in the nation in terms of lobbying and political clout, just behind the senior citizens lobby group the AARP, and ahead of the nation's largest labor union, the AFL-CIO. In short, when the NRA talks, politicians listen.

STUART ROTHENBERG, COLUMNIST/POLITICAL ANALYST: Whether or not they're in agreement with the NRA's views, they see the NRA as having the financial resources but also ground troops, supporters who are very involved in politics as well as in guns and a true factor in most campaigns.

BLITZER (on camera): An extensive CNN review of recent NRA political activities reveals the gun lobby is prepared to flex its considerable muscle more this year than ever before. NRA officials acknowledge the group could spend as much as $15 million on political races across the country. The aim - elect pro-gun candidates and defeat anti-gun candidates at the local, state and congressional levels.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/23/i_ins.00.html

[maxidivine]

140. Can't name any can you?

All you can do is post an interview in which CNN states that the NRA, a grassroots organization with four million CURRENT members, is second in the nation in terms of lobbying and political clout.

No shit?

Lobbyists paid by four million citizens, with millions more expired members, and nearly one hundred million people DIRECTLY showing support for their cause (even if you aren't a member, owning a gun is voting with your dollars) has considerable political influence? I wonder why?

I am actually pretty happy to see that the big three of lobbying all happen to be broad-based organizations looking out for general interests of the population. We will all get old, almost all of us have to work, and every one of us (barring cook county, d.c., nyc, massachusetts, NJ, etc.) has the right to keep and bear arms.

Aren't you glad that oil interests or construction contractors aren't at the top of the heap? Don't you think it's a good thing that the most ear is given to the groups comprised of huge swaths of the American population?

Check this out-

"MIKE BARNES, HANDGUN CONTROL, INC.: They have a very vocal tiny minority of American citizens who overwhelm the majority because they are so vocal and they're so vehement. So politicians are afraid of them."

A very interesting quote, since "a very vocal tiny minority of American Citizens" sounds almost exactly like the description of people just like mr. Barnes.

Why do they care about things like heavy expensive target rifles? why do they care about IDPA guns?

[zanne]

145. The NRA contributed heavily to George Bush's campaign...

The gun group has also significantly increased its contributions to the Republican Party. In the last year, it has donated more than $540,000 in so-called soft money to Republican Party committees, while giving nothing in soft money, or unregulated donations, to the Democrats. In 1996 the N.R.A. gave less than $100,000 in soft money to the Republican Party.

That increase represents a shift in strategy for the group in several ways. First, the N.R.A. has historically tended to support candidates either by giving money to them directly, rather than to the parties, or by financing independent advertising campaigns. Second, while the group has in the past supported more Republicans than Democrats, its approach had seemed less openly partisan than this year.

Third, gun control advocates contend that the group's cheerleading for Mr. Bush represents its most enthusiastic support for a presidential candidate since it put Ronald Reagan on the cover of its magazine in the 1980's.

Bill Powers, an N.R.A. spokesman, referred questions about the group's efforts on behalf of Mr. Bush and the Republicans to Mr. LaPierre, who did not return calls for comment.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E2DF1030F935A15757C0A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
------------------------------------

And this, from "The Nation"

Not that long ago, the NRA at least gave the appearance of bipartisanship, but that has changed. In 1990 the NRA gave 61 percent of its Congressional campaign contributions to Republicans, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, but by the 2000 general election that figure had jumped to 92 percent. As of October 1 the figure for the midterm election was also 92 percent. Furthermore, the NRA now simply hands soft money to the Republican Party via contributions to party committees. According to the CRP, the NRA gave $1.5 million in soft money to the Republican Party in 2000, and as of October 1 of this year, the figure was $648,523. (By contrast, in the 1998 midterm elections, the NRA gave a total of $350,000 in soft money to Republicans.)

Clearly, the NRA's Republican generosity has had an impact.
--http://www.thenation.com/doc/20021104/dahl

---It seems the NRA now tries to escape being seen as buying politicians by giving big bucks to the Republican Party instead of individual candidates. But make no mistake; that money is used in their campaigns.

Any more questions?

[maxidivine]

150. I thought so

Didn't name a single candidate "bought" by the NRA.

Yes they give more money to the Republican Party than the Democratic Party. Guess why that is?

And there were some significant changes in congress+guns between 1990 and 2000.
Does it strike you as unusual that a pro-rights organization would throw more of its weight and money behind the party that didn't attempt to restrict those rights so heavily?

Or the party that unfortunately is home to almost all of the fanatical anti-gun zealots?

Make no mistake, Sarah Brady and Paul Helmke may register themselves Republican, but their support comes almost exclusively from radical members of our party and the occasional urban-elitist republican.

And almost all of the NRA budget goes to its safety programs. The amounts of money mentioned in those two stories show that, since the NRA budget is roughly $200 million.
"The organization reports a membership of more than 4 million, which included 1 million new members alone in 2000. The membership includes hunters, target shooters, gun collectors, firearms manufacturers, and police personnel. From its headquarters in Washington, D.C., the NRA has been a dominant voice in the debate over GUN CONTROL.

With a budget of more than $200 million, the NRA maintains its own..."

"National Rifle Association." West's Encyclopedia of American Law. 2nd Ed. Ed. Jeffrey Lehman and Shirelle Phelps. Gale Group, Inc., 2005. eNotes.com. 2006. 14 May, 2008 <http://www.enotes.com/wests-law-encyclopedia/
national-rifle-association>

[iverglas]

152. I've never needed to guess!

Yes they give more money to the Republican Party than the Democratic Party. Guess why that is?

Because they're right-wing scum.

Next?


Does it strike you as unusual that a pro-rights organization would throw more of its weight and money behind the party that didn't attempt to restrict those rights so heavily?

If they're "pro-rights", how come there is almost a perfect positive correlation between the candidates supported by the NRA and the candidates supported by all the vicious right-wing scum anti-choice organizations out there?

And an almost perfect negative correlation between candidates supported by the NRA and candidates supported by pro-choice organizations?

Not to mention organizations that support every other progressive cause under the northern hemisphere sun ...

[maxidivine]

156. That is because

Most of the candidates you are talking about also include disarming the American public as one of their goals, whether openly stated or not.

Big surprise why the NRA would not support them then, and it has nothing to do with them being "Because they're right-wing scum." or "all the vicious right-wing scum anti-choice organizations".

If all the good causes could just come together than the NRA would be supporting candidates who are pro-choice.

And pro-gun status is a reason for many of the so-called progressive groups to disassociate politicians and groups, and they are proud of it.

That's why the negative correlation exists.

[iverglas]

157. hmm, I wonder

If I were the director of a pro-choice organization, and I was asked for a campaign donation by a candidate who

- opposed restrictions on access to abortion
- supported the occupation of Iraq
- advocated tax cuts for the rich
- opposed access to marriage for same-sex couples
- got money from firearms manufacturers

then hmm ... would I give him/her money?

Oddly enough ... I think not.

[zanne]

153. That was an idiotic reply.

As are the idiots who help the NRA give to Republican politicians with their membership fees. Also, your study guide "E notes" also lists the NRA as a PAC.

[iverglas]

155. oh, and the equivocation ...

And almost all of the NRA budget goes to its safety programs. The amounts of money mentioned in those two stories show that, since the NRA budget is roughly $200 million.
"The organization reports a membership of more than 4 million, which included 1 million new members alone in 2000. The membership includes hunters, target shooters, gun collectors, firearms manufacturers, and police personnel. From its headquarters in Washington, D.C., the NRA has been a dominant voice in the debate over GUN CONTROL.


Do we really have to spell out NRA PAC and NRA-ILA every bleeding time?

http://www.nrapvf.org/
(why is there a picture of astroturf down at the bottom of that page?)

[iverglas]

151. how soon they like to forget

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E6DC163FF93BA35756C0A9659C8B63&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Published: May 8, 2003

... When Mr. Bush was campaigning for president in 2000, a top N.R.A. official boasted that the group's relationship with Mr. Bush was so "unbelievably friendly" that the N.R.A. could practically claim a seat at the White House. The N.R.A. has been a major donor to Mr. Bush, and the gun lobby and the Bush administration have been in lock step on most major gun issues, including the current push to limit lawsuits against gun manufacturers. ...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/050400-01.htm

Published on Thursday, May 4, 2000 in the Washington Post

The NRA Brags That They'll Work Out Of President GW Bush's Oval Office

The National Rifle Association's second-ranking officer boasted at a closed meeting of NRA members earlier this year that if Republican nominee George W. Bush wins in November, "we'll have . . . a president where we work out of their office."

First Vice President Kayne Robinson, who is in line to succeed NRA President Charlton Heston, added that the NRA enjoys "unbelievably friendly relations" with the Texas governor. Robinson, who is also chairman of the Iowa Republican Party, made the comments Feb. 17 before 300 members in Los Angeles. He also described 2000 as "a critical election" in which Bush's success would ensure "a Supreme Court that will back us to the hilt."

My my. Anybody know where to buy that particular model of crystal ball? I want one.

Either that or the kind of influence that buys that kind of success for my predictions.

"If we win, we'll have a Supreme Court that will back us to the hilt," added Robinson, a former police official in Des Moines. "If we win, we'll have a president, with at least one of the people that's running, a president where we work out of their office. Unbelievably friendly relations."

Robinson didn't mention Bush's name, but NRA officials acknowledge he was referring to the Texas governor. ...

And hey, they're a funny bunch:

"We have the people, and in the end," he said to thunderous applause and laughter, "we have the guns."

[zanne]

154. Good one, Iverglas! nt

[benEzra]

62. Rifles account for 2.9% of murders annually, and an even smaller % of nonfatal assaults.

Rifles account for 2.9% of homicides annually (and an even smaller percentage of nonfatal assaults, per the FBI UCR). Of that number, 7.62x39mm rifles (including the AK, SKS, Ruger Mini Thirty, etc.) account for 10 or 20 percent of the rifle stats, which is reasonable considering that 7.62x39mm is the second-most-popular rifle caliber in the United States.

Iverglas, you are too intelligent and well educated not to realize the fallacy of your OP. Twenty percent of ~500 murders/yr (overstating your case) is 100 murders/yr, plus nonfatal incidents. And in this country, Von Restorff bias ensures that most of those will make national news. There are your anecdotes. Particularly if you scrape the barrel to including no-shots-fired incidents and police stings.

That doesn't change the FACT that rifles are the LEAST misused of all civilian firearms in the United States. Period.


Some of that imaginary data, that is SOOOO much less intesting than cutting and pasting anecdotes from Google:


National totals, 2006 (per the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon):

Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%


Some state data with very small "type unknown" entries, just for kicks:


Maryland (with the highest murder rate in the USA)

Total murders...............................546
Handguns....................................372
Edged weapons................................72
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged).......46
Hands, fists, feet, etc......................25
Shotguns.....................................17
Firearms (type unknown).......................9
Rifles........................................5


Alabama

Total murders...............................349
Handguns....................................226
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged).......51
Edged weapons................................35
Shotguns.....................................21
Hands, fists, feet, etc......................16
Firearms (type unknown).......................2
Rifles........................................0


Illinois

Total murders...............................487
Handguns....................................380
Edged weapons................................46
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged).......35
Hands, fists, feet, etc......................14
Shotguns......................................6
Rifles........................................4
Firearms (type unknown).......................2


And caliber data from the BATFE Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Survey:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/2000/generalfindings

Table 4: Top Ten Long Guns by Type and Caliber/Gauge
by Age Group of Possessor

Long Gun Type and Caliber - All Ages

Shotgun 12 GA...........6,854...............35.5%
Rifle .22...............4,076...............21.1%
Rifle 7.62mm............1,729................9.0%
Shotgun 20 GA...........1,277................6.6%
Rifle .30-30..............616................3.2%
Shotgun .410 GA...........615................3.2%
Rifle .223................599................3.1%
Rifle 9mm.................412................2.1%
Rifle .30-06..............410................2.1%
Shotgun 16 GA.............409................2.1%
Top Ten Long Guns......16,997...............88.0%
All Long Guns..........19,311..............100.0%

FWIW, the 7.62mm category includes both the low-powered 7.62x39mm (AK, SKS, Mini Thirty) and the higher powered 7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester, a common hunting and target caliber).

[iverglas]

78. facts are fallacies?

Who knew?

Iverglas, you are too intelligent and well educated not to realize the fallacy of your OP.

Facts are fallacies. Hmm. New one on me.


I would have thought that you were "too intelligent and well educated" to keep pretending that statistics relating to deaths/injuries are an answer to the question of whether there is a problem associated with the possession of firearms of this nature by people engaged in criminal activities or, heck, by yer ordinary garden variety asshole.


You persist in making the false representation of crime statistics as providing a complete picture of CRIMINAL MISUSE of firearms in general or any particular kind of firearm. You know perfectly well that virtually NONE of the "anecdotes" I can come up with appear anywhere in those statistics.

You apparently don't want to acknowledge that the mere POSSESSION of a firearm by someone engaged in, for instance, drug trafficking IS criminal misuse of the firearm.

And I just don't care.

But don't let me stop you from doing some more of that fine copying and pasting. Maybe you could intersperse it with a couple of cat pictures.

[benEzra]

80. The Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Survey data covered mere possession...

You know perfectly well that virtually NONE of the "anecdotes" I can come up with appear anywhere in those statistics.

The Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Survey data covered mere possession; the FBI data cover armed robbery, assault, murder, and murder of law enforcement officers; the DOJ data covers nonfatal and fatal assault.

Most of your anecdotes would fall into one of those categories, except of course the one about the police engaging in a sting operation using a police/military-only NFA Title 2/Class III machinegun--which has absolutely nothing to do with laws regulating "assault weapons" anyway, so I'm not sure why you would have included that one.

(benEzra)
Iverglas, you are too intelligent and well educated not to realize the fallacy of your OP.

(Iverglas)
Facts are fallacies. Hmm. New one on me.

No, the fallacy is pretending that a small number of anecdotes of nearly-three-sigma incidents mean that those incidents demonstrate commonality, or increased risk relative to other models of firearm. Which is an impression you are trying very hard to create.

I would have thought that you were "too intelligent and well educated" to keep pretending that statistics relating to deaths/injuries are an answer to the question of whether there is a problem associated with the possession of firearms of this nature by people engaged in criminal activities or, heck, by yer ordinary garden variety asshole.

Firearms "of this nature"?

Just what is it that you think makes the ownership of a civilian AK lookalike more dangerous in the hands of your hypothetical drug trafficker than, say, a Ruger Mini Thirty, or a .729 caliber shotgun, or a scoped bolt-action rifle, or an ordinary 9mm pistol, or a .357 revolver? Feng shui, maybe? Bad karma? Evil spirits?

And if they were so goddamned dangerous compared to conventional looking firearms, why the hell don't they show up in the violence data? FBI/BATFE conspiracy to cover up "assault weapon" violence?

You persist in making the false representation of crime statistics as providing a complete picture of CRIMINAL MISUSE of firearms in general or any particular kind of firearm. You know perfectly well that virtually NONE of the "anecdotes" I can come up with appear anywhere in those statistics.

Yes, they do. BATFE YCGIS covers possession data; the FBI UCR data cover assaults, armed robbery, murder, and murder of police officers (supplemented by the expanded FBI LEOKA data). All of which you have to ignore in order to pretend that Scary Looking Rifles(tm) are a serious crime problem in the United States even though rifles in general are most assuredly not.

You apparently don't want to acknowledge that the mere POSSESSION of a firearm by someone engaged in, for instance, drug trafficking IS criminal misuse of the firearm.

And you apparently don't want to acknowledge that mere possession is captured by the BATFE YCGIS data, which you have studiously ignored, and the YCGIS data sets upper bounds that are no more favorable to the "AK menace" position than the FBI assault, robbery, and murder data are.

Fact is, that ALL the data we have shows that rifles are the least likely class to be involved in criminal violence or threats of violence. Not just the murder data, ALL the data. You can certainly imagine that rifles must be far more commonly misused in nonviolent ways relative to their prevalence than handguns or shotguns are, and so not be captured by the violence data, but there is NO data whatsoever to support that conjecture.

From here, it seems to me that you are so wedded to the "AK's are a menace to society" meme a priori that you simply cannot grasp the fact that is staring you in the face--that the "AK menace" is entirely a PR/MSM construct, and that AK crime is so rare compared to non-AK crime as to be statistically irrelevant. Yes, there are some crimes (both violent and nonviolent) involving AK's each year, just as there are crimes (both violent and nonviolent) involving .22 squirrel rifles. The latter, in fact, are more common than the former, if you go by the YCGIS data. But both are so rare compared to the same crimes involving handguns as to be a red herring, as you well know.

Firearms possessed by violent people reveal themselves in the statistical sampling when those firearms are used to attack another human being. We have hard data on how often that occurs annually, and what classes of firearms are involved. Ignoring that data does not make it any less relevant.

[iverglas]

81. you spin harder than just about anybody I've seen

BATFE YCGIS covers possession data

For a particular group of offenders, WHO WERE CAUGHT IN POSSESSION OF A FIREARM.

the FBI UCR data cover assaults, armed robbery, murder, and murder of police officers

And DO NOT COVER incidents such as several of those in my post and in previous posts I have written about this subject.

Why don't you just admit this and have done with it?

Either admit that your statistics capture only a fraction of the problematic uses of these firearms, or ANY firearms, or admit that you don't give a shit about the others.

[benEzra]

83. Grok statistics, much? And other thoughts.

(iverglas)
You persist in making the false representation of crime statistics as providing a complete picture of CRIMINAL MISUSE of firearms in general or any particular kind of firearm. You know perfectly well that virtually NONE of the "anecdotes" I can come up with appear anywhere in those statistics.

You apparently don't want to acknowledge that the mere POSSESSION of a firearm by someone engaged in, for instance, drug trafficking IS criminal misuse of the firearm.

(benEzra)
The Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Survey data covered mere possession

(iverglas)
For a particular group of offenders, WHO WERE CAUGHT IN POSSESSION OF A FIREARM.

Umm, drug traffickers aren't offenders? Drug traffickers who possess firearms aren't a representative statistical sample of the firearms that drug traffickers might possess?

You do realize the YCGIS survey covered guns the arrested individual kept in his home as well as on his person, yes? Unless you don't quite grasp the definition of the word "possess" in U.S. law.

Since you don't believe that a survey of criminal offenders caught with guns is representative of criminal gun possession, perhaps you'd like to show me your data on "non-offender criminals" and all the AK's they own. Oh, wait--you don't have any. Just a small handful of anecdotes from the press. That's all you have ever posted on this issue--anecdotes--isn't it?

If the FBI, BATFE, and DOJ data is so crappy, then post your vastly superior data set, eh?

Either admit that your statistics capture only a fraction of the problematic uses of these firearms, or ANY firearms, or admit that you don't give a shit about the others.

You do realize, I hope, that the entire premise of statistical sampling in any field is that the shape of the distribution of a sample of a population resembles that of the population at large, yes?

Assault, aggravated assault, armed robbery, rape, and murder capture the vast majority of "the problematic uses of these firearms," or any other firearms. What other problematic uses do you postulate? Shooting while wearing a toga?

And DO NOT COVER incidents such as several of those in my post and in previous posts I have written about this subject.

OK, let's look at your media anecdotes, as we've done in the past.

Police said they think Aaron P. Jackson, 24, used an AK-47-style assault rifle to fatally shoot his daughter, Nicole Aaron Jackson, 2 1/2 , his son, Aaron Neptune Jackson, 1 1/2 , and their mother, Latasha Nicole Thomas, 23, before committing suicide at the Walt Lou Trailer Park along Route 1, north of Fredericksburg. Both children were found alive in their cribs with gunshot wounds to the head and were rushed to hospitals -- one by helicopter -- but did not survive."

This terrible crime would have been captured by the FBI Uniform Crime Reports reporting system--which, as I've said, indicates that only ~2.9% of murders involve ANY type of rifle, and that twice as many people annually are murdered with shoes and bare hands.

I suppose you think that if those poor kids and their mother were shot in the head with a handgun or a traditional .729 caliber shotgun instead of a low-velocity .30 caliber rifle, they'd have lived?

Man Shot At Burien Bar Dies From Injuries
POSTED: 7:07 am PDT May 6, 2008

Sheriff's deputies say Laumea was shot once in the head with an AK-47 early Sunday at the MVP Sports Bar where he used to work in Burien. According to witnesses, he was trying to stop a man who stormed into the bar and started shooting at the ceiling.

Another one included in the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. There were three rifle murders in that state in 2006, as well. Of course, there were 183 murders using non-rifles, so that doesn't help your case much either.

Mother Of Two Sentenced To 55 Years For Murder
2:41 PM EDT, May 9, 2008

Prosecutor Scott Murphy said LaFountain was the ring leader of the crime that involved three others - all men about half her age. She told the others about drugs, jewelry and cash she thought was in the apartment and so provided the other defendants the information that led the four to the apartment that Daniel Davis Sr. shared with his daughter.

Davis, 52, was fatally wounded when Sean Bodamer, 19, shot twice into the apartment with an AK-47 assault rifle. The gunfire wounded Davis's friend Todd Hall. Bodamer entered a guilty plea earlier this year and is serving a 42-year sentence.

Another one that would be included in the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. You do realize that the FBI UCR data are totals, not sample-derived, yes?

PHOENIX, AZ -- Fromer Cleveland Browns defensive back Dyshod Carter was one of five people arrested on May 6 as an alleged member of a cocaine trafficking organization based here.

A fully loaded AK-47 assault rifle was found in the rear passenger area of the vehicle driven by Carter, according to the press release.

They were going to use it as a hood ornament.

This type of incident was captured by the BATFE YCGIS data, which sets an upper limit on AK possession that is not favorable to your "AK menace" position.

And had they actually used the rifle as anything other than a hood ornament, it would have showed up in the FBI UCR data.

Another slightly oldie, reporting on sentence:

Man guilty in fatal flea-market shooting

A Lexington County jury Wednesday found 19-year-old Samuel Harmon guilty of murder in the 2006 Barnyard Flea Market shooting death of Denise Boykin.

11th Circuit Solicitor Donnie Myers said Harmon fired 24 rounds from an AK-47 assault rifle, killing Boykin and seriously injuring another man, who were inside a car.

Captured in the FBI UCR data.

http://kob.com/article/stories/S437201.shtml?cat=519

Posted at: 05/07/2008 04:06:46 PM
Concerned student tips off UNM police in gun bust

According to a criminal complaint, a concerned student contacted police after hearing 19-year-old Kevin Boyar talking about recent school shooting and saying how he could do a better job. The student was also concerned after seeing Nazi-type posters and literature in Boyar's dorm room.

It was at Boyar's mother's home in northeast Albuquerque that detectives actually found the four weapons. ... Those weapons include a 12-gauge shotgun, an AK-47 assault rife, a Russian made bolt action rifle, and a .22 caliber rifle.

YCGIS might have captured incidents like this, if those weapons belonged to the offender. But you may have one "under the radar" stat here. Let's grant you this one--and as a freebie, we'll ignore the equally dangerous .729 caliber shotgun, the high-powered armor piercing bolt-action, and the most-misused-of-rifles .22, and chalk this one into the "AK menace" column.

Man charged in firing of AK-47
Wednesday, May 07, 2008

A 21-year-old man was charged with aggravated assault for firing an AK-47 in front of his Westgate neighbors over a marijuana plant.

Captured in assault data, even though no one was hurt. Next.

And just slightly out of date:

Posted May 7, 2008
Ripon man, 52, accused of possessing illegal shotgun, faces six years in prison

Jason Perry, 18, was killed at the home after his best friend, Evan Tolsma, 19, of Brandon, accidentally shot him in the head with an AK47 assault rifle, according to the criminal complaint.

Assuming this was actually an accident, this would be captured in the NSC accident data. Do you really want to go there? Fair warning, it would tend to undermine the "AK menace" hypothesis...

Oops. Spillover:

May 6, 2008 - 9:00PM
Phoenix gun dealer tied to Mexican arms ring

The owner of a north Phoenix gun store has been charged with knowingly selling AK-47 style rifles and other weapons to front men who were supplying a major arms smuggling ring that ferried the weapons into Mexico, Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard said Tuesday.

George Iknadosian, 46, owner of X Caliber Guns, knowingly sold the weapons to "straw" buyers hired by two other men, who resold them to drug and human smuggling gangs, Goddard said.

More than 600 weapons traced to X Caliber, mostly assault rifles, were sold to the arms smugglers and wound up in Mexico, Goddard said.

... Many of the guns sold at X Caliber were later traced to crimes committed in Mexico, including murder, said Bill Newell, special agent in charge of the Phoenix office of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Talk about selling coals to Newscastle...

Anybody have any stats on crimes committed with NON-automatic U.S. market civilian AK's in Mexico? Most of the carnage down there seems to involve the real thing, not U.S.-market non-automatics.

Of course, if any of those made it back in to the USA and were used in assaults or murders, they'd show up in the FBI UCR data. But we'll grant you a second gold star here.

Suspect in Far South Side slaying with AK-47 charged after shootout
6:10 AM CDT, April 20, 2008

A 39-year-old man has been charged with using an AK-47 asault rifle to murder a man inside a Far South Side plumbing business and then using the weapon to shoot at police.

This one also is captured in the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. Here's what the FBI UCR data captured for that state in 2006:

Total murders...............................487
Handguns....................................380
Edged weapons................................46
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged).......35
Hands, fists, feet, etc......................14
Shotguns......................................6
Rifles........................................4
Firearms (type unknown).......................2

That doesn't exactly help your case, now does it?

http://cbs2.com/local/Compton.Shootout.Gun.2.712103.htm...

Apr 30, 2008 6:17 am US/Pacific
Police Find AK-47-Type Gun After Compton Shootout

COMPTON, Calif. Deputies recovered a high-caliber weapon that was used in a shootout between sheriff's deputies and a gunman in Compton on Tuesday night. Eleven people have been detained for questioning, according to authorities.

During the search, authorities found a high-caliber assault rifle, an AK-47-type weapon believed to have been used during the shootout.

Castano said the gunman fired several rounds at deputies patrolling an area "where there has been a lot of activity." The deputies returned fire and the gunman fled, he said.

Captured in the FBI Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted data in the Uniform Crime Reports. Again, doesn't help your case:



If you want more detailed cites from the FBI LEOKA data, I can provide. Again, fair warning--it doesn't support the "AK menace" view of things.

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/news.php?viewStory=59...

Saturday, May 10, 2008
Police say alleged cocaine dealer tried to buy AK-47

A man police say is a cocaine dealer and a gang member was arrested in Antioch for allegedly attempting to buy a fully automatic, AK-47 machine gun from undercover officers within 1,000 feet of Cole Elementary School.

“Initially, he wanted to speak to an arms dealer,” Metro Police spokesperson Don Aaron said. “He wanted to talk to someone who could get their hands on weaponry because he wanted a fully automatic machine gun.”

Aaron said it was unclear why Maclin wanted a machine gun. Metro Police then involved the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to furnish a machine gun for police to use. Police reports show Maclin took possession of the AK-47 briefly from police, paying for it with 6.5 grams of crack cocaine. He was immediately arrested on weapons and drug charges.

He wanted it to hang over his mantel. Or shoot skeet.

Hmmm, the police set up a sting with a police/military/government-only NFA Title 2/Class III AK-47--which they have to borrow from the BATFE, since they apparently don't have any in their evidence locker (unimaginable, since they're supposedly stacked several inches deep on the street)--drug dealer falls for it, and is arrested.

But please explain to me what, exactly, a police sting involving a government-owned NFA Title 2 restricted military machinegun has to do with the supposed possession/use of NFA Title 1 civilian "assault weapons" in the hands of civilians?

This makes two for Palm Beach, I think:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/treasurecoast/content/tcoa...

AK-47 raises ruckus in Port St. Lucie neighborhood
Tuesday, April 22, 2008

PORT ST. LUCIE — Police arrested a man after he and a friend allegedly fired several rounds from an AK-47 into the ground on the side of the road and in a residential neighborhood.

When police stopped Conran, he said he had two firearms in the car, the AK-47 and a Colt .357 revolver, both owned by another friend, a 37-year-old Port St. Lucie man. The AK-47 was found behind the passenger seat, and the unloaded revolver under the passenger seat.

Conran, who was on probation, was arrested on charges of possession of a concealed firearm and probation violation.

Here are the details you omit:

"When Conran and his girlfriend dropped off their friend after the party, the 20-year-old man said he wanted to fire some rounds in front of his house, the reports state. The man told police he discharged the firearm six to seven times onto the dirt of the front yard, according to the incident report. When police stopped Conran, he said he had two firearms in the car, the AK-47 and a Colt .357 revolver, both owned by another friend, a 37-year-old Port St. Lucie man. The AK-47 was found behind the passenger seat, and the unloaded revolver under the passenger seat."

Hmmm, person on probation for a misdemeanor (apparently, since he wasn't charged for felon-in-possession) decides to participate in some idiotic recreational shooting in his friend's yard. Forgets that touching a gun (any gun) is a probation violation; gets stopped, is apparently cooperative with police, is busted for felony concealed carry and probation violation and will never touch a gun again.

Give yourself a third gold star for a gun crime that didn't show up in the FBI UCR stats. That is, of course, because they only count incidents of violence, and this was an incident of stupid and illegal shooting with no intention of hurting anyone or damaging property, hence missing the "assault" category.

This would be in the "shooting the road sign" category, except in this case at least they were using a safe backstop.

Florida. The place not to be.
http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...

Teen arrested on charge of threatening brother with AK-47
April 23, 2008

A 15-year-old boy was arrested Tuesday night after police say he threatened his older brother with an assault rifle.

He and his brother were arguing for an unknown reason about 9 p.m. in the 300 block of Wilson Green Boulevard, Bergeron said. The teen then took an AK-47 from a bedroom and pointed it at his 17-year-old brother. Police were called and the 15-year-old boy ran away before officers arrived.

This type of incident would be captured by the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in the "assault" category.


http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID...

Judge to rule who keeps AK-47
Man tries to reclaim guns from the state
April 11, 2008 - 7:08 am

Scott Buchanan has written angry, aggressive and paranoid accounts of his real or imagined dealings with the police, and in 2005 he was found incompetent to stand trial on criminal charges, according to court records. But that doesn't make him too dangerous to own guns, two mental health experts told a judge yesterday.

"It was anxiety-producing that he had these views and that he had these guns," said Dr. James Adams, the state's chief forensic psychiatrist who evaluated Buchanan. "I understand people would be anxious about that. But I couldn't conclude that that reached the level of dangerousness."

In a unanimous opinion, the justices concluded that Buchanan's incompetence to stand trial did not necessarily make him legally unfit to own guns. They returned the case to Concord District Court to determine instead whether Buchanan is a danger to himself or others.

Based on those writings and interviews with Buchanan, Adams and a second expert called by the defense, Dr. Eric Mart, concluded that Buchanan suffers from exaggerated paranoia toward authority. They also said he considers gun ownership an important part of his identity.

Attorney Penny Dean of Concord, who is defending Buchanan, urged Boyle to rely on the conclusions of both experts and not on "emotional" arguments made by Gainor. "There is no way we can predict what someone is going to do tomorrow," she said. Speculation is not grounds for denying someone his constitutional right to have guns, she said.

Hmmm. The STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE is currently in possession of a handgun and a civilian AK lookalike, that the accused wants back. The state psychologist said he is not particularly dangerous, so the supreme court unanimously sends the case back to a lower court to decide whether the man is a danger to himself or others, and if the lower court decides he is NOT in fact a danger, then he gets his guns back. If he is determined dangerous, then the state of New Hampshire keeps the guns now in their custody.

OMG!!!!! DUE PROCESS!!!! SAVE US!!!

And the state is even keeping his guns in the interim. Yawn.

Why don't you just admit this and have done with it?

Why don't you just admit that the "AK menace" is vastly overblown, and have done with it?

Again, if civilian AK lookalikes are such a goddamn menace, PROVE IT. If you were right, it wouldn't be hard at all. Provide some hard, objective data showing how they are SOOOOO misused in ways that magically avoid their inclusion in the FBI, BATFE, and DOJ offense data, and explain why your data is so much better than theirs.

If you can't do that, then face the fact that the "AK menace" is a red herring.

[Tejas]

101. "the "AK menace" is a red herring"

This apparently holds true for other countries also.

For example, Canada allows both full-auto AK-47's (machineguns) and semi-auto AKM's in a similar fashion to the NFA in the US. On top of that, there are other full-auto rifles (machineguns) that aren't regulated anywhere near as much as the AK-47. The oh so sweet full-auto Valmet comes to mind.

Wonder how often crimes are committed with these weapons in Canada? Granted, such reports might not make it to MSM here in the US, but surely there'd be some mention of it here in the Gungeon(?)



If such reports exist, which I doubt.

[iverglas]

120. could you just direct me to your sources?

For example, Canada allows both full-auto AK-47's (machineguns) and semi-auto AKM's in a similar fashion to the NFA in the US.

I get a little worn out poking around the firearms regulations at www.canlii.org -- you should be able to sort this out quickly, I imagine.

What are the terms on which possession of the items named is permitted in Canada and in the US?

[gorfle]

130. KABOOM 2!

Man, BenEzra, I love watching you get warmed up.

Talk about complete annihilation of Iverglas' picture she was trying to paint.

I bow to your skills, sir.

[benEzra]

144. Not skill, so much.

She's a better debater than I am (and probably has formal training in same, with her background), but she picked a hard premise to try to defend.

[iverglas]

149. oh well

No "formal training" in debating whatsoever. Working class high schools didn't have debate clubs. Actually, mine might have had one; I think there's a picture in a yearbook. But it was pretty marginalized by the time I came along. I think even I wasn't that dorky. We didn't have courses called "rhetoric" and the like that seem to have been given in US universities. And I blew off my one moot court, which I regarded as totally dumb. I recall getting marked down for "forgetting how to address the judges", and getting good marks for "respect" ... when what I had done was, every time I concluded a statement, pause ostentatiously and then said "... m'lords". You try and you try to be disrespectful, and they don't get it.

Experience at building a case founded on facts and the logic that organizes them in support of a position, that, yes.

But here, it's just facts. The only position being: these are facts.

[benEzra]

158. Yes, anecdotes are facts---single data points. That's as far as they go.

IF the question were "have civilian AK's been used in a small number of crimes," the answer is yes. If the question is, "Can Iverglas use Google to efficiently find details on that tiny percentage of incidents involving AK's," then the answer is also yes.

Problem is, twenty or thirty anecdotes and a dozen or so fatalities tell us nothing about the severity of AK crime if during that same time period, 2,500 people were murdered with shoes and bare hands and tens of thousands maimed, 5,400 were murdered with knives and hundreds of thousands maimed, and 1,440 were murdered with hunting-style shotguns.

If you your point is that AK's are involved in some crimes, then yes, I agree. That is a fact. I have never said that AK's are never misused. I have said that AK's are rarely misused relative to other firearms. And if your point is that AK crime is NOT rare compared to crimes involving more conventional looking firearms, then you are incorrect. Wildly incorrect.

It is a FACT that AK's are not a significant contributor to criminal violence in the United States, given the FACT that AK involvement in such incidents is roughly a three-sigma event. Yes, AK's are occasionally misused; NO, their misuse is not common relative to other firearms. And the quality of the data that tells us that AK's (or any other rifles) are not a significant contributor to U.S. criminal violence is impeccable.

Your homicide anecdotes provide perhaps a dozen data points over the past three years. The FBI Uniform Crime Reports provide approximately forty-three thousand data points on homicide for the same period. The FBI data can tell us things about crime trends that cherry-picked news stories about the rarest of events do not. Similarly, your anecdotes about criminal gun possession tell us nothing about the relative prevalence of AK's vs. .38 revolvers in the hands of criminals; they tell us only that the Google search engine is very effective at combing through huge numbers of stories to find a few AK incidents.

I wanted to make the case that, say, Volvos are a menace to highway safety, I could comb through motor-vehicle accident data and post anecdotes of 50 or 100 grisly deaths involving drivers of Volvos in the last year or so. That's the problem with anecdotal data; Volvos are arguably the safest cars on the road, even though those anecdotes may be true. My 100 anecdotes of grisly Volvo deaths would not, in fact, tell me anything whatsoever about the relative safety of Volvos, only that it is possible to die in a Volvo crash. One can only weigh the relative safety of Volvos against other cars if you look at aggregate data, not at anecdotes. That is exactly the problem with your "AK's are the devil, see? Here are 20 incidents a year" approach. Because AK's could be among the least misused of all firearms, but your anecdotes could not tell us that; only the aggregate data can tell us that.

The aggregate data, from impartial sources, does indeed tell us very firmly indeed that rifles of ANY type account for a vanishingly small proportion of gun misuse in the United States. The UCR homicide data sets the upper bound, at 2.91% for all rifles put together. Rifles are even less represented in crimes other than homicide.

I will say it again: If you have aggregate, impartial data that is so vastly superior to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports data and the Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Survey, THEN POST THE GODDAMN DATA. Otherwise, your anecdotes tell us nothing; you can make one-in-ten-million incidents look common if you cherry-pick enough lurid anecdotes.

[bossy22]

112. got a question for you

what are you trying to prove in general with this post?- can you give us a straight answer please

everything you post is a dance around the bush- never a straight answer.

[iverglas]

118. good for you

[bossy22]

125. as usual

you dont want to engage in an actual dialogue....just play your little games

[gorfle]

129. KABOOM!

That sound you just heard? It was Iverglas being blown clean out of the water.

Well done, BenEzra!

[Turbo Teg]

64. Ahh, gotta love the AK-47.

Although I do prefer the AR-15 to the AK, I do like the old '47. MY M4 has been as reliable as my AK, but if I had to outfit an entire army with just one gun, it would be the AK-47. The thing is pretty much idiot proof. Although I've never had any problems in *MY* AR with direct gas impingement, I have come by a few that did, which isn't good. I've been thinking about running a gas piston upper from Bushmaster, if nothing else, to keep the weapons BCG a little cooler during rapid mag dumps.

[maxidivine]

70. I've never had to clear a malfunction

That wasn't caused by blanks in basic, or from the FATS system. and my M4gery has run flawlessly so far, and I expect it to stay that way.

I agree though that a gas piston instead of the impingement system would be better for a fighting force. No disadvantage to it compared to impingement, and several advantages.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxidivine]

66. superb

Almost any gun would have been capable of the exact same thing as the rifles you have picked out in the same situations, the only difference is that you are really pushing the scary Soviet name.

Good job iverglas, really helping educate people on the dangers of guns with recognizable names.

[beevul]

73. What is the purpose of the OP?

What message is it intended to convey?

[Tejas]

93. It points out how

mixed up some articles can be:

Florida. The place not to be.
http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...

Teen arrested on charge of threatening brother with AK-47
April 23, 2008

A 15-year-old boy was arrested Tuesday night after police say he threatened his older brother with an assault rifle.

He and his brother were arguing for an unknown reason about 9 p.m. in the 300 block of Wilson Green Boulevard, Bergeron said. The teen then took an AK-47 from a bedroom and pointed it at his 17-year-old brother. Police were called and the 15-year-old boy ran away before officers arrived.





Color me surprised.

[iverglas]

95. uh ... colour you ...

... confused? lazy?

Police dogs tracked the teen into the woods about a mile away on Paul Russell Road near the Leon County fairgrounds.

[Tejas]

97. your haphazard copy/paste

doesn't help, especially the haphazard context it presents.

Suffice it to say, the article is structured almost as badly, no mention of the ATF being summoned even though an AK-47 was involved. AK-47's in this country fall under regulation of the NFA, instances as reported in your post always "trigger" interest by the ATF.

[iverglas]

98. diversionary grooming

[iverglas]

119. git yr AK-47ish gun news here

http://www.miamiherald.com/484/story/526662.html

Posted on Sun, May. 11, 2008

At 5:32 p.m. April 14, a sheriff's deputy heard shots coming from the area of Southwest 26th Street and U.S. 27.

He said that as he approached, he saw a silver 2007 Ford F-150 pickup truck leaving the area. It was the only vehicle nearby.

The deputy pulled over the truck, which carried two passengers in addition to the driver. A computer check on one of the passengers, a 27-year-old Pompano Beach man, showed an active warrant for failure to appear in court in St. Lucie County.

After he was arrested, the truck was searched. The deputy said two empty ammunition clips were found under the seat of an all-terrain vehicle in the bed of the truck and an unloaded AK-47 assault rifle was tied under the bed of the truck between the spare tire and rear bumper.

A computer check of the rifle's serial number showed it had been stolen in Palm Beach County.

Nice one. Must've been hanging over somebody's mantel. Buy a spiffy AK-47, let some people with outstanding warrants steal it.

Among the other random theft tales at that page:

Gun stolen: A Kel-Tec .380-caliber pistol was stolen from an unlocked 2005 Ford Explorer in the driveway of a home in the 1000 block of Seabrook Avenue between 10 p.m. April 27 and 8 a.m. April 28. The gun was valued at $325.

Now there's a responsible gun-owner for ya. Wonder how many robberies / injuries / drug deals / deaths that one will wind up being used in ...


http://www.houmatoday.com/article/20080513/ARTICLES/805130335/0/living

Last Modified: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 12:22 p.m.

THIBODAUX -- Three men were arrested and charged with murder today in connection with Monday’s triple-homicide on St. Louis Street in Raceland, authorities said.

... Authorities found the bodies of three men inside a dark Ford Mustang in the 600 block of St. Louis Street around 2 a.m. Monday. Each had been shot multiple times with what police believe was an AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle.

... A team of eight to 10 investigators marked evidence and spoke with locals Monday morning and afternoon. Shell casings from an AK-47 were found near the Mustang. The car remained in the middle of the street with its brake lights on for hours after the shooting, as police surveyed the scene.

The force of the AK-47 shots from short range shattered the glass on the car’s passenger side. The shooting could have been much worse, Weidel said, if it would have occurred at a time of day where more people were outside.

Weidel explained AK-47 bullets are so powerful that not even bulletproof vests stop them. Lafourche Sheriff Craig Webre is intent on ridding the parish’s streets of the powerful rifle, Weidel said.

Have a picnic with that one, folks. I just report the news.


And a little more catch-up:

http://www.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080513/FON0101/805130421/1289/FONnews

Posted May 13, 2008

A Fond du Lac County Circuit Court judge ordered a jail term Monday afternoon for a 19-year-old Brandon man who killed his best friend in February in an accidental shooting.

... Tolsma and Perry were at their friend's home at 53 WaWa Ave. in Ripon on Feb. 20 when the shooting occurred. They were examining some guns kept in the home, belonging to their friend's father, when Tolsma pointed a black AK47 assault rife at Perry — thinking it wasn't loaded — and pulled the trigger, according to the criminal complaint.

... Tolsma was receiving treatment at a mental health facility after he tried to kill himself immediately following the shooting, said his attorney Anthony O'Malley.

Addressing an hour-long videotape, which depicted Tolsma's demeanor while sitting in a squad car immediately following the shooting, Fond du Lac County District Attorney Michael O'Rourke said it was obvious to him the shooting was accidental. He said Tolsma was "utterly inconsolable," sobbing, screaming and even throwing up.

... "That's the problem with being young, you're not always reasonable," he said. "And even at 19 years old, you're still a kid. I don't think Evan Tolsma feels like he's only 19 years old today."

[bossy22]

126. cause it would be so much better

if they wielded an M1 garand.....

[benEzra]

127. Keep digging...

http://www.houmatoday.com/article/20080513/ARTICLES/805...

Last Modified: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 at 12:22 p.m.

THIBODAUX -- Three men were arrested and charged with murder today in connection with Monday’s triple-homicide on St. Louis Street in Raceland, authorities said.

... Authorities found the bodies of three men inside a dark Ford Mustang in the 600 block of St. Louis Street around 2 a.m. Monday. Each had been shot multiple times with what police believe was an AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle.

... A team of eight to 10 investigators marked evidence and spoke with locals Monday morning and afternoon. Shell casings from an AK-47 were found near the Mustang. The car remained in the middle of the street with its brake lights on for hours after the shooting, as police surveyed the scene.

Murders are captured in the homicide data. Rifles account for 2.9% of murders annually. Civilian AK-looking rifles are only a small part of that 2.9%.

The "AK menace" is a MSM/PR fiction.

Weidel explained AK-47 bullets are so powerful that not even bulletproof vests stop them. Lafourche Sheriff Craig Webre is intent on ridding the parish’s streets of the powerful rifle, Weidel said.

And Honda Civics are "so powerful" that they can easily exceed the speed limit in 55-mph zones. OMG!!!

Point of fact, AK rounds are easily stopped by NIJ Level III body armor that a high-powered deer/elk rifle would penetrate. 7.62x39mm is the least powerful of .30-caliber rifles, after all, even less powerful than a .30-30.

It is true that 7.62x39mm will penetrate a vest NOT designed to stop rifle rounds (NIJ Level II or IIIA), but so will any rifle.

http://www.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...

Posted May 13, 2008

A Fond du Lac County Circuit Court judge ordered a jail term Monday afternoon for a 19-year-old Brandon man who killed his best friend in February in an accidental shooting.

... Tolsma and Perry were at their friend's home at 53 WaWa Ave. in Ripon on Feb. 20 when the shooting occurred. They were examining some guns kept in the home, belonging to their friend's father, when Tolsma pointed a black AK47 assault rife at Perry — thinking it wasn't loaded — and pulled the trigger, according to the criminal complaint.

... Tolsma was receiving treatment at a mental health facility after he tried to kill himself immediately following the shooting, said his attorney Anthony O'Malley.

Addressing an hour-long videotape, which depicted Tolsma's demeanor while sitting in a squad car immediately following the shooting, Fond du Lac County District Attorney Michael O'Rourke said it was obvious to him the shooting was accidental. He said Tolsma was "utterly inconsolable," sobbing, screaming and even throwing up.

... "That's the problem with being young, you're not always reasonable," he said. "And even at 19 years old, you're still a kid. I don't think Evan Tolsma feels like he's only 19 years old today."

Tragic, but captured in the NSC gun-accident data, as you well know. Data that does not support the "AK menace" hysteria.

[iverglas]

136. just so's you know

I am quite aware of how distressed some folk get when they read possibly exaggerated statements of the power of these weapons, e.g.

I reproduce the news items for the facts in them -- I do not adopt the opinions.

I reproduce some statements like the one to which you object precisely because I am aware they are controversial and have no desire to appear to be attempting to conceal them. They are, of course, available at the links for anyone who bothers to read them, but it seemed wise to me to offer them directly for whatever critique someone might think relevant.

Me, I'm just concerned about the facts: the use of these firearms by criminals / in crimes/injuries/deaths.

[benEzra]

141. The use of these firearms by criminals / in crimes/injuries/deaths, we have hard data on.

Me, I'm just concerned about the facts: the use of these firearms by criminals / in crimes/injuries/deaths.

The use of these firearms by criminals / in crimes/injuries/deaths, we have very representative data on. Such use is very rare by any definition (roughly a three-sigma event or rarer).

You have provided no data whatsoever, just anecdotes, most of reflect events that would already be covered by the FBI, BATFE, and DOJ data. Again, if the FBI, DOJ, and BATFE data set is so damn crappy, then post your vastly superior data set showing how violent rifle crime is so much more common than the FBI data show.

It appears to me that you aren't so much concerned about "facts: the use of these firearms by criminals / in crimes/injuries/deaths" as you are concerned with propping up the "AK menace" view of things via cherry-picked anecdotes.

[maxidivine]

142. "I reproduce the news items for the facts in them "

Yep, you sure do. You pass off blatantly incorrect and often clearly made-up "facts" and then point out how 'distressed' people get when they point out how incorrect the "facts" you dug up are.

Sort of like the dude who called me "obsessed" for knowing that a Barrett .50 BMG rifle costs multiple thousands of dollars and is really heavy. yep, color me obsessed.

Knowing real facts gets people painted as obsessed or gun-nuts in this forum, and that is why the pro-gun side keeps consistently trouncing you, zanne, rdenney, matt07, and anyone else who jumps into a discussion armed with nothing more than feelings about objects they have only seen on tv or in movies.

[iverglas]

146. make false allegations much?

Yep, you sure do. You pass off blatantly incorrect and often clearly made-up "facts" and then point out how 'distressed' people get when they point out how incorrect the "facts" you dug up are.

If you can't tell the difference between the opinion stated by someone quoted in a news report and the facts reported in the news report, you are in a very sorry state and should probably refrain from exposing yourself to public ridicule.

Speaking of people getting distressed, though ... I'm sure seeing a lot of it.

[maxidivine]

132. so misleading

Let's see what's wrong with this one, of the top of my head-

"Weidel explained AK-47 bullets are so powerful that not even bulletproof vests stop them. Lafourche Sheriff Craig Webre is intent on ridding the parish’s streets of the powerful rifle, Weidel said."

Well, first, there is no such thing as a bullet "proof" vest. There are bullet resistant vests, and that is exactly what they are, RESISTANT. No one in their right mind would wade into a burning building wearing flame resistant clothes, because they are not designed to or are capable of standing up to prolonged exposure. And bullet resistant vests come in a variety of levels of protection, each higher level is more bulky and stiffer than the level before it. The higher classes of soft armor are still no good against even low-powered rifle rounds like the 7.62x39mm, which is what the AK is typically chambered in.

However, the trauma plates or SAPI plates that individuals in heavy armor or the military wear is fully capable of stopping hits from the lowly 7.62x39. So the "AK-47" doesn't just magically cut down armored police officers on sight, it works the same way all other firearms do. Propel something of sufficient mass to a sufficient velocity and it will penetrate a "bullet proof vest". Unfortunately this means that any rifle will defeat almost all forms of individual body armor, and most are quite good at it.

As far as "the force of the shots from close range shattering out the window", what do YOU think will happen when multiple 1/4 oz bits of lead and copper hit glass at 2300 feet per second?





"The force of the AK-47 shots from short range shattered the glass on the car’s passenger side. The shooting could have been much worse, Weidel said, if it would have occurred at a time of day where more people were outside.


Bit sensational way to write that isn't it?

[iverglas]

121. used in crimes? shurely not

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6120761

PHILADELPHIA - May 4, 2008 (WPVI) -- Philadelphia police announced just before 8 a.m. Sunday that one person was arrested for the killing of a Philadelphia officer during a robbery, and they have the warrant to arrest another person.

The suspects were cold and calculated. Sources say as Sgt. Stephen Liczbinski was about to pull over the alleged criminals when one of the suspects said, "Bang him... get the rifle." Moments later at Schiller and Almond Street, investigators say Howard Cain emerged from a Jeep and fired an assault rifle, hitting and killing the 12-year veteran.

Deputy Police Commissioner William Blackburn describes the weapon as being, "similar to an AK-47. It's an SK. It's got tremendous firepower, and was loaded with 25 rounds. It's a deadly weapon."

... Liczbinski, 39-years-old and serving in the 24th District, encountered suspects from the holdup of a Bank of America branch inside the Shop Rite located at 3547 Aramingo Avenue around 11:26 a.m. Saturday. On the 2500 block of E. Schiller Street, Liczbinski found a dark-colored Jeep that the suspects used to get away. That's when police say Cain drew the SK and fired shots at Liczbinski, fatally wounding the officer.

I wonder whether they used handguns for committing the robbery, and just brought the rifle along ... for decoration.


http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/annette_john-hall/20080513_Annette_John-Hall__Why_do_we_buy_the_NRA_s_line_.html

In the aftermath of the cold-blooded killing of Philadelphia Police Sgt. Stephen Liczbinski with a semiautomatic weapon, they made a written appeal to lawmakers in Harrisburg last week.

... Roy Vernick, a small businessman who lives in Warrington, bought his first gun in 1976 for safety. Today he owns three handguns. They're all registered and kept under lock and key in his home.

But when he and his wife go into Center City, chances are he's packing.

... He believes he represents the typical law-abiding gun owner who supports gun regulation.

And he wouldn't join the NRA if you paid him.

"I'll probably get shot for saying this, but I think they're a bunch of terrorists," Vernick says. "We don't have the right to own an AK-47 and we don't necessarily have the right to own a Glock with a 15-round magazine."

Vernick's opinion is shared by the 25,000 members of the American Hunters and Shooters Association, a new organization created to bring reason back to the gun issue.

Hmm. One firearm owner in the US who doesn't quite fit the model so oft paraded here ...

[Tejas]

122. you actually got something right

"Vernick's opinion is shared by the 25,000 members of the American Hunters and Shooters Association, a new organization created to bring reason back to the gun issue."

Ray Schoenke, president of the American Hunters and Shooters Association donated $5,000 to Handgun Control, Inc. (Brady Campaign) in the year 2000.


so your statement:

"Hmm. One firearm owner in the US who doesn't quite fit the model so oft paraded here ..."

is sadly correct.

[iverglas]

123. ah

So this Mr. Vernick doesn't exist. Ta. I seem to have been sadly deluded.

I guess that's what you were saying. Can't think of what else it was.

[benEzra]

128. I thought you were supposedly talking about AK's...

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id...

PHILADELPHIA - May 4, 2008 (WPVI) -- Philadelphia police announced just before 8 a.m. Sunday that one person was arrested for the killing of a Philadelphia officer during a robbery, and they have the warrant to arrest another person.

The suspects were cold and calculated. Sources say as Sgt. Stephen Liczbinski was about to pull over the alleged criminals when one of the suspects said, "Bang him... get the rifle." Moments later at Schiller and Almond Street, investigators say Howard Cain emerged from a Jeep and fired an assault rifle, hitting and killing the 12-year veteran.

Deputy Police Commissioner William Blackburn describes the weapon as being, "similar to an AK-47. It's an SK. It's got tremendous firepower, and was loaded with 25 rounds. It's a deadly weapon."

... Liczbinski, 39-years-old and serving in the 24th District, encountered suspects from the holdup of a Bank of America branch inside the Shop Rite located at 3547 Aramingo Avenue around 11:26 a.m. Saturday. On the 2500 block of E. Schiller Street, Liczbinski found a dark-colored Jeep that the suspects used to get away. That's when police say Cain drew the SK and fired shots at Liczbinski, fatally wounding the officer.

I thought you were talking about AK's. The SKS is a completely different rifle, and the only similarity is caliber. The SKS also happens to be the most popular centerfire rifle in U.S. homes.

Padding your anecdotes a bit, eh?

FYI, here's my wife's SKS, a very collectible 1952 Tula:



BTW, there is no such thing as an "SK," unless it is some sort of ignorant street slang. I suppose we'll soon find out that the suspects were driving a Cadillac Slade, too.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/annette_john-...

In the aftermath of the cold-blooded killing of Philadelphia Police Sgt. Stephen Liczbinski with a semiautomatic weapon, they made a written appeal to lawmakers in Harrisburg last week.

... Roy Vernick, a small businessman who lives in Warrington, bought his first gun in 1976 for safety. Today he owns three handguns. They're all registered and kept under lock and key in his home.

But when he and his wife go into Center City, chances are he's packing.

... He believes he represents the typical law-abiding gun owner who supports gun regulation.

And he wouldn't join the NRA if you paid him.

"I'll probably get shot for saying this, but I think they're a bunch of terrorists," Vernick says. "We don't have the right to own an AK-47 and we don't necessarily have the right to own a Glock with a 15-round magazine."

Vernick's opinion is shared by the 25,000 members of the American Hunters and Shooters Association, a new organization created to bring reason back to the gun issue.

Well, he's certainly not representative of gun owners at large, since the guns he is OK with banning are the most popular civilian guns in the USA and have been since the early '90s. And I'll bet you can find women who support outlawing abortion, as well, but that doesn't mean they're representative of all, or even most, women, does it?

I'll say it again. If the FBI, BATFE, and DOJ data is so crappy, then post your vastly superior data set, eh? Oh, wait--you don't have one. Just a handful of "AK menace" anecdotes from the press, some of which don't even involve AK's.

Face it. The "AK menace" is a MSM/PR fiction, as much as you wish it were otherwise. Rifles are the least likely of civilian firearms to be involved in criminal violence in the United States, and posting anecdotes of those relatively rare events doesn't change that lack of prevalence.

[maxidivine]

135. ROFL!

You got information from THEM! Good god those people are nuts, I don't think they even have real people as members! That group is just a front for more Joyce money and the brady campaign.

"Vernick's opinion is shared by the 25,000 members of the American Hunters and Shooters Association, a new organization created to bring reason back to the gun issue."


Seriously? Don't 'need' Glocks? despite the fact that they are some of the most popular competition pistols now because of their modularity and the ease with which you can move from one model to another? And the fact that their standard capacity magazines are great for competition, where you lose points on reloading time?

These people are frauds and nuts.

[iverglas]

137. read much?

You got information from THEM!

And your basis for this statement is ...?

There's a link right in my post to where the material quoted came from:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/annette_john-hall/20080513_Annette_John-Hall__Why_do_we_buy_the_NRA_s_line_.html

It's a column - an opinion piece. If you have a problem with the veracity or credibility of the individual quoted in the piece, you could take it up with the columnist. I imagine there is an email address for her on the piece.


Seriously? Don't 'need' Glocks?

Seriously?? You THINK that's what Mr. Vernick said?? Or you're just SAYING that's what Mr. Vernick said???

Either way, you have my pity.


These people are frauds and nuts.

And yet Mr. Vernick sounded so much like one of those fine, upstanding, patriotic, gun-luvvin 'Murricans that élitists like Mr. Obama just don't understand or respect ...

[iverglas]

124. they sure do like their AK-47s in Florida

http://www.wftv.com/news/16236561/detail.html

Woman Threatened With AK-47 After Argument Over Cell Phone
POSTED: 6:49 am EDT May 12, 2008

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- Orange County deputies arrested a man they say threatened a woman with an AK-47.

Deputies arrested Levelt Charlestin Sunday after a three-hour standoff near Powers Drive and Hiawassee Road. Investigators say he pointed the gun at a woman and her child during an argument over a cell phone.

The woman called deputies and that's when the standoff started. ...

Dang. Won't show up in homicide statistics, that one. Didn't happen.


More catching up:

http://www.vicksburgpost.com/articles/2008/05/13/news/news04.txt

Trial set for second of four brothers in 2007 killing
(05/13/08)

The second of four brothers to be tried for killing a 25-year-old Vicksburg man is expected to stand trial in June.

... According to police, two guns were used in the crime - a 12-guage shotgun and an AK-47 assault rifle. It was the AK-47 that Dr. Steven Hayne, a pathologist with the Mississippi State Crime Lab who testified during the trial, said killed Harris. While testifying at his trial, Anthony Trevillion admitted going to Grammar Street with the others and firing the 12-gauge shotgun into the home.

Trevillion said it was a friend from New Orleans, whom he identified only as "Killer C," who fired the AK-47. No such person is believed to exist, police said.

http://www.khou.com/news/local/crime/stories/khou080513_tj_fbibanks.fa388530.html

FBI: Bold and brazen bank robbers result of tough economic times
09:10 PM CDT on Tuesday, May 13, 2008

HOUSTON -- In the tiny town of Hempstead, there was a shootout between police and a suspect that ended in the town park.

The suspect was caught.

But often they aren’t. And recently investigators have noted bank robberies in our area are on the rise.

“And this one crew is coming in the middle of the day and taking down the entire store with mothers and children in there,” said Ritchie. “And the last one they did, they had an AK-47 and they discharged a round into the ceiling.”

http://www.moultrieobserver.com/local/local_story_133223245.html?keyword=topstory

Published May 12, 2008 10:32 pm -
Two pleaded guilty in cocaine bust

MOULTRIE — Two Colquitt County men have pleaded guilty in association with a 2007 case in which six kilos of powder cocaine was found in a chicken coop in the Hopewell Church Road area.

One of the men posted photos on a social networking Website posing with cash, an AK-47 and a six-shooter plus other guns in his belt, which tipped off Federal Bureau of Investigation agents.

... The task force raided the home of Maldonado June 18 and seized a cache of nearly a dozen weapons, some with silencers and some with scopes, and more than 700 rounds of ammunition. ...

Photographic props! All of 'em!

[benEzra]

138. Advocates of moral panics usually have to resort to anecdotes...

when the data doesn't support their crusades, so you and other advocates of the "AK menace" are in good company. I would direct you to Carrie A. Nation, Down With Demon Rum; Harry Anslinger, Reefer Madness; Fredrick Wertham, Seduction of the Innocents (comic books cause juvenile delinquency); and Edward D. Wood, The Sinister Urge (uncensored magazines cause sex crime).



All of the above used anecdotes to make people afraid, and to get them to ignore the plain truth that the things they were advocating against were not nearly as dangerous as what they were claiming. "Facts be damned! Act on FEAR AND IGNORANCE, dammit!"

Fact: Rifles are the least misused class of firearms in the United States, in every category.

Fact: Rifles account for less than 3% of murders annually, and are even less common in nonfatal violence.

Even Pete Shields himself (head of what is now the Brady Campaign from 1978 to 1989) recognized the facts that you are so studiously ignoring:

"(O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. Rifles and shotguns are not the problem; they are not concealable." (Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die--People Do, Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48).

That is no less true now than it was then---and rifles are no more misused now than they were then. If you went back to 1978 or 1980, you'd find about the same low percentage of rifle crime then as now.

But, on to your anecdotes:

http://www.wftv.com/news/16236561/detail.html

Woman Threatened With AK-47 After Argument Over Cell Phone
POSTED: 6:49 am EDT May 12, 2008

ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- Orange County deputies arrested a man they say threatened a woman with an AK-47.

Deputies arrested Levelt Charlestin Sunday after a three-hour standoff near Powers Drive and Hiawassee Road. Investigators say he pointed the gun at a woman and her child during an argument over a cell phone.

The woman called deputies and that's when the standoff started. ...

Dang. Won't show up in homicide statistics, that one. Didn't happen.

It will damn sure show up in the assault stats, though. In which rifles are even less represented than in homicide stats.

More catching up:

http://www.vicksburgpost.com/articles/2008/05/13/news/n...

Trial set for second of four brothers in 2007 killing
(05/13/08)

The second of four brothers to be tried for killing a 25-year-old Vicksburg man is expected to stand trial in June.

... According to police, two guns were used in the crime - a 12-guage shotgun and an AK-47 assault rifle. It was the AK-47 that Dr. Steven Hayne, a pathologist with the Mississippi State Crime Lab who testified during the trial, said killed Harris. While testifying at his trial, Anthony Trevillion admitted going to Grammar Street with the others and firing the 12-gauge shotgun into the home.

Trevillion said it was a friend from New Orleans, whom he identified only as "Killer C," who fired the AK-47. No such person is believed to exist, police said.

That one was captured in the FBI UCR data. 2007 isn't out yet, but here is the data for the entire state of Mississippi in 2006:

FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2006
Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon
State of Mississippi
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html

Total murders...............................173
Handguns.....................................93
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged).......24
Edged weapons................................18
Firearms (type unknown)......................16
Hands, fists, feet, etc......................10
Shotguns......................................7
Rifles........................................5

Rifles rank LAST in the state of Mississippi for murders, just as they do in most states. And they are even less common in nonviolent assaults.

I see the criminal also had a .729 caliber shotgun, which is considerably more lethal than a civilian AK. When are you going to post all your "shotgun menace" anecdotes?

http://www.khou.com/news/local/crime/stories/khou080513...

FBI: Bold and brazen bank robbers result of tough economic times
09:10 PM CDT on Tuesday, May 13, 2008

HOUSTON -- In the tiny town of Hempstead, there was a shootout between police and a suspect that ended in the town park.

The suspect was caught.

But often they aren’t. And recently investigators have noted bank robberies in our area are on the rise.

“And this one crew is coming in the middle of the day and taking down the entire store with mothers and children in there,” said Ritchie. “And the last one they did, they had an AK-47 and they discharged a round into the ceiling.”

And a .729 caliber shotgun slug, or a round from a Winchester .30-30 like was used in the Florida tourist shootings, would have just bounced off the bank's ceiling tiles and nobody in the bank would have noticed...

http://www.moultrieobserver.com/local/local_story_13322...

Published May 12, 2008 10:32 pm -
Two pleaded guilty in cocaine bust

MOULTRIE — Two Colquitt County men have pleaded guilty in association with a 2007 case in which six kilos of powder cocaine was found in a chicken coop in the Hopewell Church Road area.

One of the men posted photos on a social networking Website posing with cash, an AK-47 and a six-shooter plus other guns in his belt, which tipped off Federal Bureau of Investigation agents.

... The task force raided the home of Maldonado June 18 and seized a cache of nearly a dozen weapons, some with silencers and some with scopes, and more than 700 rounds of ammunition. ...

Photographic props! All of 'em!

Red herrings! All of 'em!

I dare say it was the photos of the sound suppressors that tipped off the Feds, since they are as tightly controlled as 105mm artillery pieces and 500-lb bombs in this country. And again, we have hard data on how often rifles are USED in assaults, robberies, and murders. The answer is, less commonly than any other class of firearm. A fact that you seem to be trying to bury in red herrings. But not even the YCGIS data on mere possession support your "AK's are the devil" contention.

Rifles are the least misused of any class of firearms in the United States. You can try to obscure that fact with anecdotes all you want, but you cannot get around it.

[iverglas]

147. I'm sure seeing some panic someplace

but it doesn't seem to be anywhere in my air space.

[benEzra]

160. Moral panics generally express as outrage rather than fear...

and IMO the "assault weapon" scaremongering shares most of the characteristics of the classic moral panic, with the possible exception of duration (although the AWB balogna in the MSM is highly cyclical, it is less so in the political realm).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Moral panic is a sociological term, coined by Stanley Cohen, meaning a reaction by a group of people based on the false or exaggerated perception that some cultural behavior or group, frequently a minority group or a subculture, is dangerously deviant and poses a menace to society. It has also been more broadly defined as an "episode, condition, person or group of persons" that has in recent times been "defined as a threat to societal values and interests."<1> They are byproducts of controversies that produce arguments and social tension, or aren't easily discussed as some of these moral panics are taboo to many people.<2> Characterization of the group reaction as a moral panic requires a presumption that the group's perceptions are unfounded or exaggerated.

These reactions are often fueled by media coverage or propaganda around a social issue, although semi-spontaneous moral panics do occur. Mass hysteria can be an element in these movements, but moral panic is different from mass hysteria in that a moral panic is specifically framed in terms of morality and is usually expressed as outrage rather than fear. Moral panics (as defined by Cohen) revolve around a perceived threat to a value or norm held by a society normally stimulated by glorification within the mass media or 'folk legend' within societies. Panics have a number of outcomes, with one being the certification to the players within the panic that what they are doing appears to warrant observation by mass media and therefore may push them further into the activities that led to the original feeling of moral panic.

The influences and behaviors of young people are common themes in many moral panics.

...

Moral Panics have several distinct features:

1. Panic/anxiety: This is often very intense and there seems to be no problem greater than the subject of the panic.
2. Short lived: The Panic lasts for only a few months at the most and can recur.
3. Emotive language and images: Phrases such as "monsters", "decay", and "crisis" are used to emphasize the acuteness of the problem. Medical language can also be used out of context such as the word "epidemic".
4. Case Studies: These are often dramatic and unrepresentative.
5. Statistics: Often misused or written in such a way that makes the reader think the problem is worse than it is; for example, "400% greater" may mislead some into thinking that something is 400 times higher rather than 5 times.
6. Demonization of a group: Sometimes the chosen group does not even exist and those that do are mostly socially or economically marginal. Often the media can portray a group in a way that they don't really exist and the group will eventually live up to the stereotype created for them.
7. A Media led or generation phenomenon: Printed to start with and then TV and radio follow amplifying the panic which is then reflected elsewhere such as politics. Even in Victorian society moral panics were seen to be adopted by the media in the form of pamphlets, handbills and newspapers.<5>

[iverglas]

148. but I just have to ask

And a .729 caliber shotgun slug, or a round from a Winchester .30-30 like was used in the Florida tourist shootings, would have just bounced off the bank's ceiling tiles and nobody in the bank would have noticed...


I see.

People would have just continued to go about their banking business.

The fact that there were several men standing in the room firing at the ceiling, they just wouldn't have noticed.

The men didn't do that in order to intimidate the people present and secure compliance with their orders, I guess.

They just did it ... as an experiment. To see whether anyone would notice.


I'm sure you had a point. Somewhere.

[benEzra]

159. Sarcasm challenged today? :-)

Yes, I know. The shotgun and the .30-30 would have done more damage to the ceiling, actually. I was merely poking fun at the idea sometimes expressed around here that AK's are inherently "more dangerous" than conventional-looking firearms of equal or greater ballistic capability and/or lethality.