Pot, beer lead to tragedy on father-son hunting trip

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

The word tragic doesn't begin to sum up what happened to 8-year-old Hunter Klaseus. It's not strong enough.

Hunter and his dad were turkey hunting. Tony Klaseus, 39, saw some turkeys and left his son behind and began stalking down the edge of a field.

At some point Hunter must have decided he wanted to be part of the hunt. According to the Minneapolis Star Tribune, Hunter, wearing camouflage, began moving toward his dad who was trying to get closer to the turkeys in a field.

Turkey hunters know seeing turkeys in a field, and almost in range, is when things get pretty intense. The elder Klaseus was wired.

"Then I heard something snap or break near me, and a large figure rose up," Tony Klaseus told authorities. "I thought it was a turkey, and I shot it and it went down. I thought I shot the turkey. Then my son jumped up screaming and then fell back down."

Hunter Klaseus never got back up.

The boy was 20 to 30 yards away when his dad shot him with a 12-gauge shotgun. Tony Klaseus called 911 on his cell phone and carried his son a quarter-mile to emergency workers.

Hunter was pronounced dead on the scene.

In a way the story gets worse.

It was reported Tony Klaseus had marijuana and alcohol in his system at the time of the accident. Authorities found two 12-packs of beer, three six-packs and an empty 24-pack at the scene. There was a marijuana pipe in the man's truck.

Tragic? Tony Klaseus was an accident waiting to happen.

For the time being forget that Klaseus broke the cardinal rule of hunting, which is identify your target. His blood alcohol level was .06 and he had pot in his system. Klaseus didn't just not follow the rules of hunting, he didn't follow the rules of being a dad.

When I first read the story I thought, "Who leaves an 8-year-old alone in the woods?" Now I get it.

A person who would leave an 8-year-old alone in the woods also would be drinking beer and smoking pot with an 8-year-old on a hunting trip.


Full story here: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/may/11/pot-beer-lead-to-tragedy/

This guy is a pretty good outdoor writer. This story makes me sick.

David

[iverglas]

1. heads up

You need to edit your post to comply with copyright-related rules; copy 4-5 paragraphs max. The thread will likely be locked otherwise.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. There isn't more than 5 paragraphs there.

It's not in paragraph form. Hopefully they'll leave it alone, if not I'll repost. Thanks for the heads up though.

David

[TomInTib]

2. What a shame.

I have been on two hunts when kids got shot.

One was a squirrel hunt when a guy shot his son in the top of the head, a single BB entering each eye, blinding the kid.

Another was a 13-year-old who was climbing into a tree stand when a .270 went of, drilling his heart. We found him that evening and my StepFather carried him for over three miles back to camp and had to tell the kid's Dad.

But neither incident involved beer or reefer.

MR. Klaseus should be taken out and shot.

[Hidey]

4. Question

Was the child climbing with the gun when it went off?

[TomInTib]

6. Yeah.

Bad deal, all around.

[Hidey]

7. So avoidable.

I'm so sorry.

Condolences to all involved.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. Where is it legal to squirrel hunt with a bb gun?

Why was the 13 year old hunting alone? Tragic both were obviously avoidable.

David

[krispos42]

16. Must have been a shotgun blast

Some of the spray of pellets went into the kids face.

:-(

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. Thanks.

They said one bb did the damage though. Just sounded strange.

David

[iverglas]

58. oh my

They said one bb did the damage though.

Here's what the post actually said:

a single BB entering each eye

And you chose to interpret that as meaning that a single BB entered BOTH eyes.

Could you not, just occasionally, try to read for meaning?

Who would ever have said that someone got shot in two eyes with one BB? In what circumstance would this even be possible, in the universe as we know it? Perhaps if someone were standing perpendicular to the path of the BB, and the BB entered the outside corner of one eye, travelled through the eye, through the bridge of the nose, into the other eye ...

In this case, there really wasn't any way that what you read could have been interpreted that way.

A single BB entered EACH eye.

As compared to more than one BB entering EACH eye.

[spin]

64. Some people legally hunt with air guns...

“Hunting? With air guns? You’re kidding me!”

That is the comment I hear on a rather frequent basis when I am chatting with a fellow hunter, or sharing my hobbies with another interested party. With the ready access to firearms that we in America enjoy, air rifles, pellet guns, and other air guns are often over-looked as a viable way to pursue the great sport of hunting, or as an alternative method of pest control versus the use of poison and traps.

Over the last few years, I have more or less dived headlong into the use of airguns as a means of hunting. As a matter of fact, I haven’t used a firearm for any kind of hunting except shooting birds on the wing for over 4 years. I have found that air guns have met my needs for all the hunting I do very admirably, up to and including the hunting of big game such as whitetail deer.
http://www.airgundepot.com/airguns-small-game-hunting.html

Of course, the weapons they use are not the typical BB gun might be thinking of. For example:
http://www.airgunsbbguns.com/Pellet_Guns_Break_barrel_Adult_s/342.htm

[DrDan]

3. and these are the people we are suppose to believe as they discuss

how safe guns are - all it takes is a safety program and all is well . . .

what a shame . . . . what a waste of a young life.


I hate the NRA.

[virginia mountainman]

5. A painful reminder, to be careful....

I have hunted alone, and in groups for years, luckily, so far, no one has gotten hurt, or even had a "near miss". All in my "group" are paranoid about safety.

What does the NRA have to do with this conversation??

Part of the blame CAN be placed upon those "do gooders" that freak out about any kind of gun education in schools.

[DrDan]

18. yep that is the answer - always the answer

always someone else's fault - never the gun owner - never the NRA that wants to do away with ANY semblance of gun control.

Yep - the mature, responsible gun owner. Time to lay off the gun owners. They have proven themselves as responsible - leave them alone. Let them have their guns. More guns.

[bossy22]

21. the majority

have been shown to be responsible- if they werent we would look more like columbia in terms of violence

its like drivers- the majority are responsible, safe, observe most of the rules- but we still have 40,000 deaths contributed to auto accidents- though we can do much to limit this but congress doesnt seem to want to act- here is my plan- ban radios, TVs, GPS, cup holders from cars (this will get rid of the distractions), limit all civilian cars to 75 mph, require all states to mandate a driving age of 21- with 2 years mandatory traingin- for the first 2 years of licensed driving only can get cars that go 55 mph


think of all the lives we could save- seriously- i think we could cut the number down by 3/4 if we implemented those plans- who needs a radio in the car- who needs a car that does 130mph?- not in america- the highest speed limit ive seen is 75mph

[DrDan]

23. laws are not established for the majority - they are for the irresponsible minority

the problem is the NRA wants to protect and further enable this irresponsible minority. Eliminate or limit registration. Eliminate or limit any restrictions on types of guns being sold.

At least in the case of cars, we have age limits. We have driver licensing. We have vehicle registration. We have an audit of vehicle ownership.

I have no problem with additional restrictions on autos. Anything to further protect the innocent from getting hurt bears consideration.

[bossy22]

27. ill give you this

"Anything to further protect the innocent from getting hurt bears consideration"- that is true, but how far we go is the question- as i have always said you have to be careful with grey lines- grey lines got us the patriot act and warrantless wiretaps

"At least in the case of cars, we have age limits. We have driver licensing. We have vehicle registration. We have an audit of vehicle ownership."
actually- no...thats all in the case if you want to bring your vehicle onto public property- you can own a car at any age, order them online, drive them without a license- all on your own property...ooo...they don't even need to be inspected so you can pollut all you want

"the problem is the NRA wants to protect and further enable this irresponsible minority. Eliminate or limit registration. Eliminate or limit any restrictions on types of guns being sold."
actually as much as you might disagree- the NRA does not want to protect this minority- this minority is a liability to the NRA because it makes the majority of the people it represents look bad- its in their interest to limit this minority. This villification of the NRA i do not understand- just cause they are are against many badly written gun legislation (which most are).

Gun control advocates in congress and legislatures know how to decieve the public when it comes to gun control- they make up legislation- on anything- and then put a cute name on it like "the safe child act" or the "community protection act"- but what those acts can say is something to the sort- "congress enacts into law an authorization allowing all police departments to confiscate all firearms from civilians"...so when the NRA comes out against this the politicans can say "look at these nuts, they are against the "safe child initiative"- and what happens in most cases with gun control- knee-jerk liberalism kicks in - if it is proposed bya democrat, it must be good

the sad fact is the majority of both sides of any debate are stupid- the only thing they know is from politicial soundbites

[DrDan]

32. in Florida there is no inspection - so these old polluters are all over the place

"This villification of the NRA i do not understand- just cause they are are against many badly written gun legislation (which most are)." In my view the NRA's solution to dealing with rules they do not like (whether badly written or not) is to just do away with them. Have they ever proposed new legislation? Not that I am aware of - it is always to eliminate any legislation. (I certainly could be wrong - and would gladly admit to it - but am just not aware of any gun legislation that the NRA supports)

Well - the "cute-name" movement is not limited to gun legislation. It is the time we live in and the tactics that work for politicians. Like "pro-life" (who is against life), the "death tax", etc

[bossy22]

38. true

but the NRA has pushed for legislation for laws- the NICS improvement act was an NRA supported peice of legislation to improve the NICS system in regards to mental health entry.

the NRA supported the idea of an instant check- but was against the 3 day waiting period

[virginia mountainman]

51. I LOVE it when the "cars" analogy comes up....

I need the government's permission to buy a car? No.

Do I need to buy the car from only certain people with licenses to sell cars? No.

Can I buy as many cars as I want each week/month/year? Yes

Do I have to be over a certain age to buy, own or possess a car? No (as long as it's kept on private property)

Can I buy small cars, big cars, slow cars, fast cars, cars that look dangerous? Yes

Do I need a license to buy a car? No

Do I need a license to operate a car? No (as long as I operate it on private property)

If I have a license from my state to operate a car on public property, is that license good anywhere in the country, for any car in the country? Yes.

How old do I need to be to get a license to operate a car on public property? Only 16 in most states.

Do I need to register a car that I own? No (as long as I keep it on private property)

Do I need a background check or waiting period to buy a car? No

Is my car held responsible if someone misuses it? No

Can the company that manufactured my car be sued if someone misuses it? No.

Do I need to "safe store" my car even though many are stolen and used for criminal purposes? No

Will I lose my driver's license if I violate the law with my car? Most likely not

Will I lose my right to own a car if I violate the law with my car? Most likely not

Do I really need to go on?

[virginia mountainman]

22. What does gun control, have to do with hunting accidents??

[DrDan]

24. accident? he had alcohol and marijuana in his system

goes beyond the definition of an accident in my mind

[virginia mountainman]

29. Okay, why ban the gun?? Ban pot and alcohol instead..

Wait a minute.......

So let me get this straight, you want to pass wide sweeping gun control, because of what a drunk pot head did??

I don't smoke weed, or drink...but you way of "fixing" the problem is gun control? I have a better idea, ban Pot instead!! LOL...don't work that way does it... And we tried banning Alcohol too...did not work to well did it.

Paws off my civil rights...

[DrDan]

34. I will support your civil rights as soon as you can convince me

I am safe among the gun owners.

[virginia mountainman]

39. That is easy..

here on DU, their are many gun owners...I, am just one. I am also a CCW holder, and I have never hurt anyone with my firearms, accidentally or otherwise.

[DrDan]

43. can you vouch for the owners?

They also have never hurt anyone? I don't know what a "CCW" holder is, but assume it has something to do with responsible gun ownership. I support "responsibility".

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

8. Wow talk about a typical knee jerk reaction.

Guns can be safe. Criminals who like to drink and smoke pot shouldn't have guns. That's pretty much consensus on both sides of the argument here.


David

[DrDan]

17. if that idiot did not have a gun in his hand, that child would be alive

[bossy22]

19. and if that stupid persian kid

didn't have a car- Dr. Matthews would still be alive


point please?- what ifs are fun

[DrDan]

25. the point is that if that idiot did not have a gun in his hand the child would still be alive

sorry for the confusion

[iverglas]

40. "stupid persian kid"?

Is that like "stupid Angora goat"?

I'm missing something here. Who is this stupid persian kid and why are we talking about him/her?

[bossy22]

52. Mayer Sadian

little F***

always hated him in HS, kinda glad that he will be in jail for the next 20 years of his life.....

[iverglas]

55. hmm

Well, as you might have imagined, there was a reason for my question.

Mayer Sadian, the college kid who killed a doctor in a hit-and run.

He sounds like a rather unpleasant sort.

He's Jewish, and of Iranian national origin. (I've encountered the phenomena of Iranians, particularly in the US, preferring to be called "Persian", an ethnic description. None of my many close Iranian friends ever seemed to take up this affectation.)

I was curious why you identified him by his ethnicity. Now I'm curious why you identified him by only one of his ethnicities, or by ethnicity but not religion (depending on whether you regard "Jewish" as an ethnic or religious description).

Just strikes me as a little ... not quite quite, in terms of how things are done in polite company.

[iverglas]

49. hey, that was a serious question!

I hate it when I don't know what's going on.

Who is Dr. Matthews, and who is that stupid persian kid??

[bossy22]

54. my bad

it was Dr. Siegal and Mayer Sadian

Dr. Matthews was another accident...

[bossy22]

53. my bad

it was Dr. Siegal, Dr. Matthews was a drunk driving death

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Idiot is the operative word not gun.

An idiot killed a kid, it happened to be with a gun and involved alcohol and illegal drugs.

David

[bossy22]

20. guns are like cars

if used irresponsibly they can kill

do we say that all it takes is drivers ed and all is well- no

in both cases you need to always observe saftey rules- thats the key to safe car driving and firearm ownershio

the NRA didnt cause this- the father's lack of judgement and not observing safety precautions were

[DrDan]

26. and the safety precautions did not save this child's life

[bossy22]

28. well the reason was

that they were never followed- it wasnt like they werent there- the guy didnt identify his target, he was using a gun under the influence- all those are against what gun owners consider gun safety precautions- if the precauations had been followed- good chance the kid would be alive

[DrDan]

33. but . . . sadly, the precautions were not followed and a child is dead

one who probably revered his Father.

[bossy22]

36. yes....

we all agree that the father was at fault

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. So if a parent doesn't use a seatbelt or a car seat is the car at fault?

[DrDan]

47. yes

Obviously not. But a car has redeeming qualities in terms of its value to society. Guns sole purpose is to kill. So IMHO they need to be "treated" differently.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. A guns sole purpose is to fire a projectile.

I don't kill anything with my guns except cans, golf balls (disclaimer shooting golf balls may not be safe), metal and paper targets. Guns have redeeming qualities in terms of its value to society. When I see a cop with a gun on his hip I feel a little more secure at least while they are around, when I see my handgun in its appropriately stored position at home I feel more secure knowing it's there in the event that I need it. Security and personal self defense have a value to society.


David

[DrDan]

50. the value to society is in its view as an instrument of death

and yes - I will agree that there are some that enjoy target shooting. I should have recognized that. Of course, the purpose of the target is to take the place of a person/animal in lieu of an actual death.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

56. That's ridiculous.

When I'm shooting golf balls I'm trying to get them to roll further than my buddy, kind of an alternate shot forum until the other person can't hit the ball anymore. I don't hunt, I love animals (my wife and I run a dog rescue), I have spent my career taking care of people who have been shot and have absolutely no desire to shoot anyone. The targets I shoot at are round metal ones that spin when you hit them. I shoot guns for the same reason I golf or shoot pool. It is a physical and mental challenge.

David

[DrDan]

59. well - we have differing opinions

but I shall not stoop to calling yours "ridiculous"

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

60. Sorry.

Just hard for me to believe, that someone could believe that everyone shooting targets is envisioning shooting animals or people while they are doing it. Didn't mean to offend you though, I apologize.

David

[DrDan]

61. and I have a hard time understanding the facination with guns

I am not offended - so no apology is necessary.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. Well there's a starting point.

We fundamentally don't understand each other. Although I can't say that I'm fascinated by guns, I do enjoy shooting them ( I like playing golf, and fishing more) and I appreciate the engineering. I have carried a gun to defend people who were unable to defend themselves. I really see them more as tools than anything. So are you really a doctor?

David

[DrDan]

63. well - kinda - Ph.D.

I agree they can be viewed as tools - to some, for example, law enforcement, etc.

What I fail to understand are the ones that take such pride in how many they own, how powerful the ones they own are etc. They seem to believe it brings a sense of "macho" to their personalities, where, in fact it does just the opposite. They are perceived by many who think as I do that they are simply compensating for their lack of "macho" through their guns. Does that make any sense - not sure if I explained it clearly or not. I see these guys daily at the gym - bragging about their gun collection - however it does not seem as though they are truly collectors - only guys who think quantity impresses. The implications are so visible that it does not take a psychology background to see through their compensation.

My in-laws were all avid hunters. They also saw the guns as tools. Not being a hunter, however, I never fit in with their hunting. To their credit, however, the goal of their hunting was in a meal - not in the killing. On the other hand, I think a lot of hunters truly enjoy the killing. I do not understand this - except as a "power" thing.

The target shooting is one area I always forget about in these discussions. While these targets started out as victim/animal substitutes, they have progressed into a sport of their own. As they have gained validity through the Olympics etc, I do see it as a sport/pasttime.

So - in what role did you carry a weapon?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. As a soldier and a combat medic in a war zone.

I usually don't talk to people that I don't know very well about my guns. That seems wise to me since they are quite valuable and wouldn't want my house to become a target for thieves. Most concealed carry permit holders that I know view a firearm as a tool. I have very rarely seen one being carried. I have known several for years when I come to find out that they have been carrying a handgun the whole time. I'm sure there are people who brag about their guns. They probably take steroids to and like to show off their muscles. What's your PHD in?

David

[DrDan]

67. Computer Technology - specialty and research in high-speed networks

In retrospect, it was not the wisest of choices. It is a discipline that aged quickly. However, the background in statistics that was required has led to a job that I really enjoy. So I am "burdened" with the statistical tasks that no one else wants. Oh well - a bit of job security.

I understand what you are saying about being a target with the guns. I do understand that they are sought out in burglaries. I collect guitars - and keep that quiet as well - I prefer to hang on to them myself.

I was also in the military - AF. However my experience there with guns was to do the annual qualification. 4 years active and quite a few years reserrves and I touched a gun maybe 5 times. That was fine with me, however.

I actually had a couple of traumatic experiences as a child that probably influenced my feelings toward guns. I had a bow and arrow and one day was standing below a bird on a telephone wire. I put in the arrow and shot toward the bird - killing it. What a horrible feeling - I don't think I had ever hit anything before. A second memory had to do with deer hunting with my Father and a friend of his. The friend killed a small deer - and because there were no trophy horns, he simply threw the deer into a pond. What a waste. Anyway, I am sure those events helped shape my feelings toward guns and their impact.

What does the "fire" refer to in your screen name?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. I understand

I grew up around guns, spent a lot of time on a farm so that probably shaped a lot of my opinions. I spent all my time in line combat units including the 82nd Airborne Division. I work as a medic for a fire department, so I am on a fire engine. We run 1st responder so we answer all life threatening medical emergencies in addition to normal fire calls, extrications, etc. My wife in finishing her PHD right now, should graduate by December, It's in physical chemistry. I appreciate the respectful conversation.

David

[DrDan]

71. well - congratulations to your wife! That is a great accomplishment in that field

I struggled with HS chemistry.

I have advised potential Ph.D. candidates in the past - and one of the most important prequalifications is the buy-in of family members. It is also a multi-year sacrifice for them. So I am sure your wife appreciates your patience and support.

My son-in-law is a firefighter - just made Lieutenant. He claims it is the best job in the world. And I know the strength of the bond between this group - probably matched only by those in the military or law enforcement.

Anyway - I certainly hope there will be a change around here after the primary - the insulting, offense responses are getting tiring.

In future "debates", I will do my best to try to remember the positive sides of gun ownership - like target shooting may be a real sport.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. Congrats to your son in law.

I just made Captain a little while back. I look forward to our future conversations.

David

[SteveM]

65. Please don't help the GOP...

Be cautious. Some "pro-gun" groups in the GOP may copy expressions like yours and use them in local elections to defeat Democrats.

"...these are the people..." Do you mean the ones involved in the hunting accident? I don't know what their positions on hunting and firearm safety are, do you?

"...they discuss how safe guns are..." Do you know of ANYONE who has said guns are safe?

"...all it takes is a safety program and all is well..." Do you know of ANYONE who has said this? Please note that to use a gun safely is to be constantly vigilant. "Safety programs" end, vigilance does not.

"what a shame...what a waste of a young life." I agree.

"I hate the NRA:" Not too fond of 'em either, but what is your point?

You should be aware that accidents/deaths due to hunting have been in steady decline for many years, making hunting one of the safest sports there is.

[iverglas]

69. interestingly

You should be aware that accidents/deaths due to hunting have been in steady decline for many years

... so has hunting.

Hmm. I wonder whether there might be a correlation ...

[SteveM]

70. Not really. Hunting numbers are static; accident/death rates are down significantly.

[iverglas]

72. I don't actually doubt it

although hunting is declining, but not sharply -- what I might think, though, is that the *aging* of the hunting population has had some effect in this regard. Hunters, on average, are older, and more experienced.

But I'm sure that is not the explanation for the bulk of the reduction in "accidents" and deaths.

Numbers of vehicles on the road rose during the 1990s, but crash deaths declined.

The safety of many things/activities really has improved in the last few decades, due to public information and education campaigns and other measures as appropriate to the thing/activity. I don't know whether "don't drink and hunt" campaigns have been as ubiquitous as "don't drink and drive", but I assume there have been efforts in that direction, for instance.

I haven't had anything to say about this particular incident because there isn't much one can say.

[SteveM]

74. Required hunter ed, wearing international orange both rank high...

Many of the deaths/injuries in hunting are due to falls from deer and tree stands, exposure to elements, heart attacks, and other "operational" casualties. Even most gun-shot related casualties are from improper use of firearm at, say, a car (the classic is pulling a long gun out of the vehicle barrel-first). The bulk of injuries occur to feet and legs, indicating improper use and self-inflicted wounds. Those incidents where one person shoots another are well down the list, and most often involve shots where one "swings on" a flying bird well out of the safe arc of shooting (pulling a Cheney).

Turkey hunting, BTW, is one of the more dangerous forms of hunting as orange is NOT required to hunt these birds (they have excellent full-color vision and would never approach within range of an orange-clad hunter). Even here, accidents could be reduced by sitting with one's back to a tree.

[Mojorabbit]

11. I have been turkey hunting

with my husband. I don't hunt myself. I can't see how this happened. You don't just turn and shoot at anything that moves. You sit and watch the turkey till you have a good shot. Something is off in this story unless he really had way too much to drink.

[Scout]

12. odd headline, as neither the pot nor the beer caused the death n/t

[pipoman]

14. And I suppose the car is to blame when a drunk/drugged driver kills? N/T

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

15. Are you arguing that neither pot or beer can alter perception and affect decision making?

Please clarify.


David

[gorfle]

13. Disgusting.

Absolutely disgusting display of stupidity. If only the stupid only killed themselves.

[Outraged As Usual]

30. Why mention the pipe?

If it had been a tobacco pipe no one would have mentioned it. The fact that the man had a pipe put away in NO way means that he was under any influence from cannabis, and if he had been he likley would have been more cautious and not less. The beer is the killer; pot does not alter perception and dull the brain, and the dad may have had the pipe put away for a quick toke later that night after the kid was asleep, who knows?

But just finding a pipe means nothing. THC can stay in the system for drug testing purposes for over a month, but that means zero when it comes to effects. this is a tragedy because turkeys from the store are safe and taste a lot better than those old tough birds in the wild...I say when American dad's stop making animal murder a rritual for the young will we see a halt to these accidents.

People get killed every year hunting, and the vast majority involve nothing more than carelessness, just like in this case, and drugs like alcohol may have altered his judgement, but pot did not....always blame the innocent weed..sad.

[bossy22]

31. trust me

POT alters judgement...ive seen some really smart people do some really dumb things while they were high

"this is a tragedy because turkeys from the store are safe and taste a lot better than those old tough birds in the wild"
i find wild turkey's taste better than genetically engineered turkey's- but to each his own

[pipoman]

35. Animal Murder?

You're kidding right? :eyes:

[pipoman]

37. Oh and these two statements lead me to believe you are an urbanite?

"turkeys from the store are safe and taste a lot better than those old tough birds in the wild"

I guess that depends on your definition of safe. If steroid and genetically engineered is your definition of safe I guess your definition and mine are very different.

"animal murder"

And those turkeys from the store grow on trees I guess, no animal murder if it is from the store.

[slackmaster]

45. Drugs and alcohol and guns don't mix, mmmmmmmmmkay?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. Guns are bad, mmmmmmmkay?

[JonQ]

46. If the man had been stoned and drunk

while driving his truck home from the hunting trip, and his son had been killed in the ensuing wreck, would anyone seriously be calling for the ban of all automobiles? Of course not. But when a gun is involved the immediate response is to blame all firearms and demand their removal from society Why the double standard?

I'll be consistent, in either scenario I'd blame the drunk/stoned man who killed his son through his own lack of responsibility. He's liable, not whatever tool he happened to use to carry out this tragedy. And while I'm sure he never intended for this to happen, he did choose to drink, which created a dangerous situation (drinking while carrying firearms, drinking while driving, etc) so he should be held 100% responsible.

Here's an experiment: Next time a pilot for some major airlines is caught trying to fly drunk, think if your first reaction is to ban all 747s, or to fire/punish this one individual for his mistake.