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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 09:48 PM
Original message
Criminals, Guns And Pelle Lindbergh
Criminals, Guns And Pelle Lindbergh

When Philadelphia Flyers hockey star Pelle Lindbergh failed to negotiate a curve and plowed into a concrete wall, why didn't we condemn his souped-up Porsche? Why didn't we demand answers as to why the curve was even there and why there wasn't a cushion to soften any collision with the wall?

Where was the public outcry to ban sports cars such as Lindbergh's, which was easily capable of speeds exceeding 150 miles per hour? After all, with a speed limit on every U.S. roadway, none higher than 75 mph, what could possibly be the reason to keep these cars legal? Why aren't there mandated speed governors on every American vehicle?

So why the double standard when it comes to guns? If we can see the truth in Lindbergh's situation, why can't we carry that logic over to the gun debate?

Philadelphia police officer Stephen Liczbinski was brutally gunned down two weeks ago by three violent criminals. All three had prior convictions, and all three should have still been serving time in jail. But they were all released early, despite their threat to society. In fact, one of them would have finished his full sentence in 2052. Instead, the system cut their sentences insanely short.

But rather than logically focusing on the real issue here - the collapse of the criminal justice system - all we hear about is "guns." We need "tougher" gun control laws, and we need to crack down on "gun violence." Most of all, we need to ban more guns, especially "assault weapons," a nebulous term that means absolutely nothing but sounds great. The arguments put forth always revolve around why there is a "need" to own such a weapon.

http://www.thebulletin.us/site/index.cfm?newsid=19701328&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=8


An interesting article.

Why were those three violent criminals set free?

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent post!! N-T
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maxidivine Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. But that doesn't adress the issue!
Edited on Tue May-20-08 09:45 AM by maxidivine
Of why we make it so easy for anyone to just have guns?! I mean we need to fight the NRA (Nefarious Rifle Association) which is trying to make sure that all children have crew-served machine guns! Oh no!


Seriously though, great article. We have some fools on the site asking how we could possibly enforce the existing laws on the books in a way that would result in a meaningful drop in violent crime without making more laws, and then we see that we have career criminals let out of prison forty-five years early, who immediately rob a bank and kill a police officer.


Maybe we could just stop letting our violent and career criminals out of prison 1/40th of the way into their sentence?
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Easy?!?!
Evidently you have never purchased a firearm before..

Their are more forms to fill out than going to the Dr's office.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I think that was sarcasm your replying to. N/T
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I love it when they fight among themselves


Hell, maybe all those times I think they're just pretending not to get it, they really aren't ...

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:48 PM
Original message
Glad you are so fascinated with our spoor. (nt)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. you do read the funniest shit


Funny, weird.

http://outside.in/Philadelphia_PA/tags/chris%20freind

In this case, funny funny, too. Dumb is sometimes really quite funny.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. btw
Edited on Tue May-20-08 04:48 PM by iverglas

That isn't actually an "article". It's a "column". By what I gather is a front-runner in the contest for America's dumbest columnist.



typo ...
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. And yet...
You don't actually address anything that the "column" says:

"Philadelphia police officer Stephen Liczbinski was brutally gunned down two weeks ago by three violent criminals. All three had prior convictions, and all three should have still been serving time in jail. But they were all released early, despite their threat to society. In fact, one of them would have finished his full sentence in 2052. Instead, the system cut their sentences insanely short.


Yes indeedy. Not so much as a peep about that from you. That must be one of those things said that would qualify one for "dumbest" something or other. :eyes:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. please, for me

Count and list the things there have been not a peep about from me today. World hunger, that'll be up top of the list. Global warming, too. This burble? Small potatoes.

I know nothing about the individuals who committed the crime in question. I know nothing about their previous crimes, or the reasons why they were paroled, or what assessment was done of the level of threat they presented to society. For all I know, they were among the millions of poor sods in prison for drug offences. I see nothing in the burble that enlightens me on any of the relevant questions. Why would I say anything about people and events about which I know nothing, let alone about the opinion expressed by a right-wing shit for brains like this one?

The only reason I can think of would be to make myself look like a moron gunning for an appearance on the Jerry Springer show. Or trying to fit in around here.



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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. "Hey...Look, over there..." N/T
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. vv (look down)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. indeed!


Look up, look way up! It's a bird, it's a plane -- no! It's yet another worthless piece of vomit puked up by a worthless piece of shit right-wing cretin, brought to you once again by one of the stalwarts of the gunzisgreat, gunzisgood crowd at DU!

I mean, I saw it already, but maybe somebody missed it ...

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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Any comment on this?
A0ny comment on this rather than misdirection?

"Philadelphia police officer Stephen Liczbinski was brutally gunned down two weeks ago by three violent criminals. All three had prior convictions, and all three should have still been serving time in jail. But they were all released early, despite their threat to society. In fact, one of them would have finished his full sentence in 2052. Instead, the system cut their sentences insanely short."


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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. sure


"... all three should have still been serving time in jail. But they were all released early, despite their threat to society"

It's opinion backed up by no facts.

There ya go. Comment.

There may be facts that would support that opinion. I have no idea. Do you?

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. maybe

somebody thought that anybody this stupid

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/top_story/20080505__I_would_call_it_an_execution_.html
Warner was arrested when he flagged down a police officer to report that his van had been stolen. He was found to have been linked to the bank robbery, police said, and was charged with murder and related offenses.
was unlikely to manage to be a danger to anybody ...

Seriously, eh? Rob a bank, kill a cop (or be there with whoever did it), then flag down a cop to report your van stolen. By whom, one of the people you robbed the bank with?

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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You got a tank with some gas in it, I'll give you that.
Edited on Tue May-20-08 07:41 PM by beevul
"maybe somebody thought that anybody this stupid was unlikely to manage to be a danger to anybody ..." - Iverglas.


Well now, lets just see about that:

Warner was sentenced in 1997 to 7 1/2 to 15 years on a robbery charge, one to 5 for possessing an instrument of crime and five to 10 for criminal conspiracy.

Cain entered the state prison system Nov. 12, 1997, to serve a 9- to 18-year sentence for robbery, said Susan McNaughton, spokeswoman for the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections.

On Sept. 5, 2006, having served just shy of half his minimum sentence, Cain was sent to Lycoming House, a halfway facility at 1712 Point Breeze Ave. in South Philadelphia, McNaughton said.

Cain's robbery sentence in 1996 stemmed from a string of armed robberies of state liquor stores in West and Southwest Philadelphia. His court-appointed lawyer in the case, Steven Laver, said Cain and two codefendants were accused of robbing at least four liquor stores. "In two of these, there were guns, but no shots fired," Laver said.

In 1996, he was stopped by police and reportedly began punching the officers before running away. He was caught and sentenced to no more than 23 months in the city jail.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20080506_Alleged_killer_of_policeman_was_on_parole.html


But wait, theres more!! :

Who freed the cop-killers?
By MICHAEL P. TREMOGLIE


Warner was sentenced in 1997 to 7 1/2 to 15 years on a robbery charge, one to 5 for possessing an instrument of crime and five to 10 for criminal conspiracy.

Cain was convicted in 1996 of four counts of robbery, carrying firearms without a license and criminal conspiracy. He was sentenced to five to 10 years for each robbery charge, two to four on the other charges. He had also been arrested for aggravated assault, carrying firearms without a license and reckless endangerment.

Floyd was sentenced to five to 10 years in 1995 for robbery and rearrested in 1999 for violating parole. He was released early, and convicted again in 2001 for two robberies in Lancaster.

If Levon Warner had served his full sentence, he would've been in prison until 2012. He could not have committed any crime in 2008.

If Howard Cain had served his full sentence, he would've been in prison to 2052. He would not have murdered anyone in 2008.

If Eric Floyd had served his full sentence, he'd have been in jail, not robbing banks, in 2008.

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20080508_Who_freed_the_cop-killers_.html?adString=ph.opinion/opinion;!category=opinion;&randomOrd=050808061219




Release people like that early in Canada because someone thinks they're so stupid as to be "unlikely to manage to be a danger to anybody", do you?

Bwahahahahahahaha.


I wonder whether it might be a good idea to do something to actually make it difficult for people who are ineligible to possess firearms to acquire firearms.

Hmmmmmmmmm ... IVERGLAS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3313970#3317095








Me, I wonder if the person saying that is interested AT ALL in discussing that outside the context of gun control.

Evidence thus far, suggests nothing but the contrary.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I've got a sense of humour, at least

I was unable to find anything about any of the three individuals' previous records, not that I was going to spend all night trying.

I found that Darwin award-worthy moment. I gave it an intro. You huffed and puffed. Well done.


What I did read, and what you have produced confirms, is that Howard Cain (killed by police shortly after the murder of the cop) was the mastermind and instigator of the robbery that led to the murder, and the one who did the shooting.

I couldn't theorize about any equivalent situation in Canada, because the situation is rarer. For starters, liquor stores in most provinces are operated by the provincial government, and are lovely bright trendy big places where there are always half a dozen unionized employees and loads of customers around, and I've never in my life heard of one getting robbed. And then, of course, firearm robbery is just such a rarity anyway. Once in a while, a bank gets held up. The bank where my then-beau was the accountant who had been left in charge while the manager was on vacation got held up quite some years ago. Bizarrely, the same guys held up a bank in my home town hundreds of miles away not long after. I guess they were heading for the border. They were US citizens. (My home town is the whitest bread town in Canada, although it hasn't approached, say, Portland, Maine, for absolute whiteness for some years now. The bank robbers were very tall African-American men. Apparently they attempted to mingle with the crowd in the mall outside the bank after holding it up ...)

Sentences for just about anything in Canada (or the rest of the civilized world) come nowhere near the sentences handed out in the US, some of which are just plain stupid. How many centuries can a mortal actually serve behind bars, anyhow? We have virtually no minimum sentences (murder and repeat drunk driving are among the few exceptions). We impose finite, determined sentences, not this 3-to-52 years stuff. We have rules about parole eligibility times and mandatory remission times, with exceptions in which mandatory remission could be withheld, e.g. People aren't released early because there's no room in the inn.

So I'm afraid I just have no context with which to assess what was done in these cases. The number of people who would be equivalent to these individuals -- a history of multiple robberies using firearms -- would be too small for me to have noticed any of them likely. One thing I do know is that a robbery conviction is a good indication of recidivism risk; forget when and where I read that, but it sounds reasonable, and there were reasons to explain it, having to do with the structured nature of the crime for one thing, I believe.

Bankers talk about bank robbery in Vancouver:
http://www.cba.ca/en/content/press/Robbery_in_Vancouver.pdf
Substance abuse is a contributing factor. In Vancouver, the problem is significant, with 84 per cent of F.I. (financial institution) robberies motivated by substance abuse, compared to 49 per cent in Toronto, 52 per cent in Edmonton, and 57 per cent in Calgary.

Close to three-quarters of F.I. robbers are caught, but in Vancouver, they are not deterred by current sentencing expectations. One-third of offences are committed by offenders who are on parole, probation, unlawfully at large, or out on bail. In Vancouver, 65 per cent of offenders have prior robbery convictions, compared to 56 per cent in Edmonton, and 52 per cent in Toronto and Calgary.

While in all jurisdictions, custody is the most common sanction for F.I. robbery offenders, Vancouver’s incarceration rate is consistently lower than other jurisdictions. Vancouver offenders’ sentences are also shorter, and offenders are more often offered alternatives to jail time.

... Other provinces’ sentencing approaches appear to be contributing to better outcomes: lower robbery rates and lower recidivism rates. These sentencing approaches are characterized by increased use of custodial sentences and longer sentences, particularly for repeat offenders. Rehabilitation may be a potential alternative, however, the current approach is not working, as non-custodial orders are most common in Vancouver, and yet recidivism is highest here.
Just for the curious, and not because I adopt anything said there. Montreal was long the robbery capital of Canada -- in fact, it was the bank robbery capital of North America. But that was a function of biker gangs / organized crime. Quebec dealt with the gangs, and thus the robbery problem.

Hey, you might enjoy this -- it's the kind of thing I spend my days reading ...
http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/bills_ls.asp?lang=E&ls=c10&source=library_prb&Parl=39&Ses=1

Bill C-10: An Act to amend the Criminal Code (minimum penalties for offences involving firearms) and to make consequential amendment to another Act
<Legislative Summary>

Bill C-10, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (minimum penalties for offences involving firearms) and to make a consequential amendment to another Act, was introduced and received first reading in the House of Commons on 4 May 2006, followed by second reading and referral to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights on 13 June 2006. Its primary objectives are to increase mandatory minimum terms of imprisonment for individuals who commit serious or repeat firearm offences, and to create the new offences of breaking and entering to steal a firearm and robbery to steal a firearm.

... 1. Canada

A study published in 2002 concluded that existing research generally does not support the use of mandatory minimum sentences for the purpose of deterrence, or for the purpose of reducing sentencing disparities. That said, the evidence was somewhat inconsistent and unclear in the specific context of firearm offences. In contrast to mandatory minimum sentences for drug offences or impaired driving, for instance, the use of such punishment appears to have some impact in reducing gun crime.

A study in 1983 found that robberies and homicides with firearms decreased after minimum sentences came into force in 1977, but there may have been a compensating increase in offences not involving firearms, and minimum sentences were only one aspect of the legislation. The study concluded that a direct cause-and-effect relationship between the minimum penalties and declines in crime rates could not be drawn, as screening provisions to determine who may possess or acquire a firearm may have contributed.

In 1995, further amendments to the Criminal Code attached four-year mandatory minimum sentences to certain offences committed with a firearm. However, the number of cases was found by Statistics Canada in 1999 and 2000 to be too low to have a noticeable impact on overall sentencing patterns. There does not yet appear to have been a comprehensive study of the effects of the 1995 amendments.

2. United States

There has been some evidence that mandatory minimum sentences have been effective in the context of gun-related crime in the United States, although again, the results are mixed overall. An evaluation, published in 1992, of mandatory gun-use sentencing enhancements (mandatory additional imprisonment) in six large American cities (Detroit, Jacksonville, Tampa, Miami, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh) found that the laws deterred homicide, although not other violent crimes. However, studies of similar laws in Michigan in 1983 and Florida in 1984 found no evidence that crimes committed with firearms had been prevented.

A 1981 evaluation of a 1975 Massachusetts law that imposed mandatory jail terms for possession of an unlicensed handgun concluded that the law was an effective deterrent to gun crime in Boston, at least in the short term. A 1984 study of a 1974 Arizona law, imposing additional minimum prison time where a firearm is used in the commission of an offence, found that offenders committed fewer robberies with a firearm as penalties for firearm use became more severe. The law was followed by “highly significant reductions in gun robberies in two large counties, with no evidence of displacement to other robberies or property crimes.”

More recently, in Richmond, Virginia, a 1997 initiative called “Project Exile” established, among other things, a five-year mandatory minimum sentence for certain gun crimes. During the first 10 months of 1998, compared with the same period of the previous year, the total number of homicides committed in the city was down 36% and the number of firearm homicides was down 41%.
The whole thing is interesting. Well, I find it interesting, anyhow. Just lucky I get to read that kind of thing for work. (I'd read that one before.)



I still don't know why the individuals in the Philadelphia case were released, or what supervision arrangements there were (one was living at, and "escaped from", a halfway house).

And I don't have any magic solutions for preventing recidivism by robbers, short of life-time lock-up on first offence, which would shock the conscience of the civilized.



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