Anti-violence and gun rights activists unite!

[TPaine7]

It's a single anecdote, but it shows anti-gun violence activists can be reasonable and respect gun rights.

Antiviolence and gun-rights backers banded together yesterday in support of a Worcester liquor store clerk who shot and killed a masked man who allegedly pulled a gun on him during an attempted robbery.

...

John Rosenthal, co-founder of Stop Handgun Violence and a rifle owner, said he supports responsible gun ownership and the use of firearms in self-defense.

“It’s a good thing the store clerk was licensed and trained and prevented this heinous crime,” he said. “If it was all legal, power to the guy.”

Source: http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1138553

And I say power to gun violence prevention activists who respect law-abiding gun owners' rights. After all, I oppose unjustified gun violence too.

[DonEBrook]

1. Killing armed robbers is the best.

Needs doing more.

[spin]

2. When I lived in Tampa, a gas station clerk was shot to death...

for no reason. The incident happened within 1/2 mile of where I lived. A video tape was shown on local TV and it was obvious she had done everything she could to comply with the two bad guys. They shot her on the way out the door.

Years later on the way home from work I planned to stop at the same gas station to fill up my tank. A block from the station, a police car raced past me with lights and siren on. I pulled up to the pump and a police officer told me the station was closed as it had just been robbed. Had I arrived five minutes earlier, I would have been inside the station when the robbery occurred. It would have been an awkward situation, as I have a carry permit and I carry. I would have had a difficult choice to make. Pulling my weapon would have escalated the situation and someone would probably been shot. Fortunately, I didn't have to make that decision.

I talked to the store clerk the next day. He was a young man from Pakistan who I often had a short conversation with when I made a purchase. He really didn't think the robbery was a big deal. All he did was hand the money over and the bad guy left.

While it's hard to say what I would have done had I been in the middle of the situation, I believe that I would merely observed. I carry a S&W snub nosed .38 special in my front pants pocket. I would have had my hand in my pocket on the weapon. If the situation would have turned nasty, I would have drawn the weapon and shot the perp. A .38 is not a real powerful round and even five rounds might not have ended the situation. Using a weapon should always be the last choice in a confrontation. Real life doesn't resemble what you see on TV.

I hope I never find myself in a mess like that. I believe this is true of most people who carry concealed. If you carry a weapon, you take on tremendous responsibility. You're not a police officer and you should never be a vigilante.

I would never work in a convenience store or a gas station, but if I did I would have a weapon available.

[iverglas]

3. In Ontario ...

... for those who enjoy tales of the strange and foreign ...


Ontario is the most populous province of Canada: about 13 million, heavily urbanized. The Liquor Control Board of Ontario (LCBO) is a provincial government agency. The employees are members of the Ontario Public Service Employees Union (OPSEU), like all other government employees. In urban areas, the stores are generally located in areas with lots of vehicle and foot traffic; they are brightly lit and modern, the cash registers are always at the front of the store, and I'm sure they have surveillance cameras. In rural areas, they can be more isolated. (Beer is sold at the Brewers Retail, a consortium of brewing companies that operates much like the LCBO, at stores where product is brought from the stockroom behind the cash registers to order, in a rapid process.)

I googled lcbo robbery and came up with a few recent incidents.


http://www.sudburycrimestoppers.com/Crime%20Files/March%2031%202008.aspx?PageView=Shared

On March 31st, 2008 shortly after 7:00 p.m., Greater Sudbury Police Service responded to a robbery at the LCBO on Lasalle Blvd.

A male suspect entered the store and attempted to walk out with a liquor bottle without offering to pay. Staff members approached the individual and requested that the bottle be handed over to them.

A second suspect, who had remained outside the store, entered with a knife.

Both suspects left the scene.

Weapon: knife.
Injuries/deaths: none.


http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Crime/article/516400

Oct 12, 2008

Around 6:20 p.m. at an LCBO on 595 Bay St., near Yonge St. and Dundas St. W. two security guards working at the store spotted a man and a woman taking bottles from the shelf and throwing them into a bag.

As the suspects tried to leave, the security officers confronted them and while they were able to handcuff the woman, the man resisted.

Police say without warning, the man pulled out a handgun and pointed it at the two officers.

He then ran away with the alcohol and his female ally, who was still cuffed.

No one was hurt.

Weapon: handgun.
Injuries/deaths: none.
(note that the security guards would *not* have had firearms)


http://www.cd989.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11140

2008/1/16

Local police are looking for a suspect after a robbery at the LCBO in Port Dover. According to Norfolk OPP just before eight o'clock Friday night, a man entered the liquor store and approached the lone female clerk from behind. As instructed she opened the safe, and handed over a large number of $5.00 bills. The suspect then fled the scene in an unknown direction. No weapons were seen and the clerk was not hurt.

Weapon: none (one on one situation, lone clerk complied)
Injuries/deaths: none
(OPSEU is asking that the situation of employees working alone in rural areas be addressed, for a variety of health and safety reasons, including simple slip and fall situations)


http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=12740

Monday, April 03, 2006

Arrest Warrant Issued
(Sundridge, Ontario) – An arrest warrant has been issued for the apprehension of a man wanted in connection with a robbery that occurred at the Sundridge LCBO on March 17th, 2006 around 8:40 p.m.

Members of the Almaguin Highlands Ontario Provincial Police are currently seeking the whereabouts of Michael Battagello, 28-years-old, of Whitby, Ontario. Battagello has been charged with the following offences:

1. Robbery, section 344(b) of the Criminal Code.
2. Theft under $5000, section 334 of the Criminal Code
3. Conspiracy to commit robbery, section 465(1)9c) of the Criminal Code.

Weapon: "replica pellet gun" (info in later article: http://www.mykawartha.com/news/article/27241).
Injuries/deaths: none.


Those are the only ones I could come up with.

As for convenience stores, the only weapon I have ever heard of being used in an attempted robbery at my corner 7-11 was a penknife. The clerk I spoke to shortly after the attempt had laughed at the would-be robber, who left.

I shouldn't be flip. There are convenience store and gas station robberies. Some involve firearms -- or at least what appear to be firearms.

http://www.google.ca/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22convenience+store%22+robbery&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryCA

http://www.google.ca/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22gas+station%22+robbery&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryCA


It's old, but the gulf has likely only widened:
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/pol-leg/res-eval/other_docs/notes/canus_n_e.asp

A greater proportion of robberies in the United States involve firearms. For 1987-96, 38% of robberies in the U.S. involved firearms, compared to 25% in Canada. Furthermore, the proportion of robberies involving firearms shows an increasing trend in the U.S. (from 33% in 1987 to 41% in 1996), compared to a decreasing trend in Canada (from 26% in 1987 to 21% in 1996).

Firearm robbery rates are 3.5 times higher in the United States than in Canada. For 1987-96, the average firearm robbery rate was 91 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 26 per 100,000 in Canada.

The figures for Canada have continued to fall:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/080220/dq080220b-eng.htm

Police reported nearly 4,000 robberies and almost 2,400 assaults that were committed with a firearm. However, these types of offences were much more likely to be committed by physical force than with a firearm or any other type of weapon.

Homicide and attempted murder, while fewer in number, were far more likely to be committed with a firearm. Guns were used against about one-third of all victims of attempted murders and homicides in 2006, compared with 14% of victims of robbery and 1% of victims of assault.

More detail here:
http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/collection_2008/statcan/85-002-X/85-002-XIE2008002.pdf

(How interesting to note that 0.3% of sexual assaults in Canada in 2006 involved the use of firearms, while 1.1% involved the use of knives.)

Also old:
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap/1997/wd97_3-dt97_3/p6.html

Similarly, excluding the United States, there was no meaningful difference in the reported rate of armed confrontation during a robbery in the past five years. However, U.S. respondents were about twice as likely as elsewhere to have been confronted with a weapon during a robbery in the past five years.

In eight of the nine countries, there was a very low reported rate of confrontation with a firearm during a robbery (less than 0.5% of the respondents). In contrast, among United States respondents, more than 1% had been a victim of at least one firearm-related robbery in the last five years. About as many U.S. respondents (1.10%) said that they were confronted with a gun as Canadian respondents said that they were confronted with any weapon (1.09%).

What's it all about?

Well, it just isn't easy for yer average small-time punk liquor store stick-up artist to get a firearm here. And people don't get killed during robberies very often.

And of course public operation of liquor outlets seems to have benefits beyond better control over liquor sales; it seems to enhance the safety of workers in those businesses. If only gas station and convenience store workers had similar protections.

[spin]

4. I found an article that said that Canadian gun crime...

is on the rise among teenagers.

More young people used guns in violent crimes in Canada in 2006, part of an increase seen over the past four years, a Statistics Canada report released Wednesday says.

Police forces reported 8,105 victims of violent gun crime over the year, ranging from assault to robbery and homicide. Two-thirds of the crimes involved handguns.

The report notes that firearm-related crimes overall have remained stable from 2002 to 2006.

But in three of those four years, the number of teenagers aged 12 to 17 accused in such crimes rose, for a total increase of 32 per cent since 2002.

The report says 1,287 young people were accused in 2006 of firearm-related crimes, mostly robbery.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/02/20/stats-can-guns.html

But it is worth noting that:

The Statistics Canada report notes that guns account for only 2.4 per cent of all violent victimizations. Clubs and other blunt objects are higher with three per cent, and knives make up more than double that with 6.2 per cent.

Perhaps Canadian teenagers are fascinated by the movies made in the States that glorify the "gangsta" lifestyle and the Rap stars who promote it.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Hip hop mogul 50 Cent, Universal Music Group and several of its record labels were sued on Wednesday for promoting a "gangsta lifestyle" by a 14-year-old boy who says friends of the rapper assaulted him.
http://www.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUSN0919064520080409

[iverglas]

7. gotta love percentages

But in three of those four years, the number of teenagers aged 12 to 17 accused in such crimes rose, for a total increase of 32 per cent since 2002.

The report says 1,287 young people were accused in 2006 of firearm-related crimes, mostly robbery.

Doing the math backwards, that's 975 in 2002 vs 1287 in 2006. (That's 32% over four years).

That is, an increase of just over 300 such offences over four years.

That's roughly one extra offence per 100,000 population.

Yes, it's a trend, and a disturbing one.

And the single most impotant factor in it is increased access to handguns, be they from thefts (it was during that period that some significant multiple-handgun thefts took place, but firearms are also routinely stolen in simple house break-ins) or smuggling.



edited ... it may be disburbing (hmm, suburban decay?), but my point was that it's disturbing ...

[spin]

9. What I was wondering was if...

American culture appeals to youth in Canada.

We tend to glorify criminal activity especially gang related crime in movies and video games.

The Brits seem concerned:

Video clips glamorising gang culture posted on popular internet sites such as YouTube should be blocked, a government minister and a leading children's charity said last night.

The calls come amid growing fears about the glorification of violence among young people sparked by the fatal shooting of Rhys Jones, 11. He was shot dead last Wednesday in Croxteth Park, Liverpool, an area plagued by gangs.

Two local gangs, the Croxteth Crew and the Norris Green Strand Gang - also known as the Nogzy - have posted online video of members touting guns. Clips from other gangs, such as the MI6 from Manchester and Soi from Birmingham also feature prominently.

'These videos are clearly an extremely malign and dangerous influence on young people,' said Ivan Lewis, the Health Minister, who has responsibility for intergenerational issues and was the victim of a young gang recently when he tried to stop a crime in his constituency. 'The companies have a responsibility to do everything in their power to prevent young people from being exposed to such imagery and glorification of violence.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/aug/26/ukguns.ukcrime2

Note: I do not favor censorship. I'm merely curious about your views on the trend to make gang culture look cool and if it has an effect on Canadian youth.

[iverglas]

10. I don't think so much glorification

as just plain old crime, for the usual reasons: I want it, you got it, I'm taking it.

Firearms enable young offenders to commit more and potentially more violent crimes. I think the kinds of things they're using them for are things like convenience store robberies.

The "culture" thing is a much more widespread phenomenon in the UK than here, I think. And it isn't entirely imported. If you get a chance, watch something (or of course read something, but there's an impact from watching it) about youth gangs in Glasgow. You'll need the subtitles. And we're talking youth -- kids. They're not much affected by any outside influence; they're focused on their own pointless internal warfare and insular, deprived lives.

On a quick google I can't find the particular documentary I watched a while back ... here's an idea:

http://tweeascanbe.wordpress.com/

These gangs are prolific and numerous to the extent that in the past few years there have been a good number of documentaries on them, British and otherwise. Most of them are readily available to watch, in segments, on Youtube. I’ve watched every one of them. Since guns are entirely illegal in the UK, blades are they way these kids carry out their business. There’s one documentary that opens by showing a small gang riot in a shopping district, where a 15 year old boy hacks another kid with a machete to death behind a car right there on the street in broad daylight. In all the shows, as soon as these boys get on camera they pull up their shirts to brag and show their knife wounds. They talk about not being able to go to their own corner store, or cross the street, without their friends being with them, because kids from other gangs will always be there waiting to murder them, or at least beat them within an inch of their life. There’s even a website, wido.co.uk, which is basically a Scottish nation-wide gang website, for all of these kids to send in pictures of themselves and their friends, so everyone knows you, your turf, and that you know theirs in turn.

I haven't played any of the things at the site it mentions -- http://www.wido.co.uk/ -- but some of them should give an idea.

Now, undoubtedly media influences are at work too. But there are indigenous problems that basically no effective measures have ever been taken to deal with. Whatever they would be ...


We have varying types of gangs here, depending on the part of the country. Most revolve around drug trafficking. Some of the under-18 firearms crime is associated with that. The Jane Creba case (the teenaged girl killed in gang crossfire on Toronto's main downtown shopping street the day after Christmas a couple of years ago) involved several young offenders, for instance. Toronto gangs are probably most like US gangs. In Winnipeg, where you find about the highest rate of violent crime, it's aboriginal youth mainly, and there you can look to the socioeconomic situation: poverty, fragmented communities and families, generations of alcohol and now drug abuse. In Vancouver, you get more of the Asian gang phenomenon. I would say that media/cultural influences operate where the activities and problems in question already exist maybe, but not really independently. Organized crime, which gangs are, doesn't really need video games for recruiting.

[spin]

12. The gangs remind me of the film " A Clockwork Orange"...

I did find several clips on Youtube. Scary! Good thing blades rather than guns are common among the lads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOJ_IbZQTYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6GXSyGcDxA

Maybe Glasgow was the inspiration for the novel by British author Anthony Burgess which the 1971 Stanley Kubrick film was based on. According to the Youtube links, Glasgow was plagued by the same youth violence in the 60's.

[iverglas]

13. if you wanna talk international gang culture

Here's the place:

http://www.streetgangs.com/billboard/viewtopic.php?f=281&t=122

That one is about British gang culture, and is kind of interesting.

"Oi!" is a specifically East London (Cockney) / working class expression, roughtly equivalent to "hey you!" in a "watch out / watch yourself" kind of sense.

Ian Stuart and Skrewdriver essentially sealed skinheads' fate as getting a bad rap. They were a VERY popular Oi! band, even stretching outside of the punk/skinhead scene. They then went on a talk show on National TV in America where Ian Stuart proudly claimed NS/NF. They then started playing RAC (rock against communism, or racist oi!). The "racism" among a lot of Hooligans IS misunderstood. It truly is more nationalism. Case in point, when the Jamaican workers came over during a labor shortage, many mods and teddy boys (soon to be the hard mods, or skinheads) adopted their style, music and culture. Just a few years later, when both British and Jamaican dockworkers were being replaced by non-English speaking immigrants from south asia, both BLACK JAMAICANS and WHITE BRITS started the "Anti-Paki League," which was NOT racist, and indeed, again, had many black members, however, was interested in protecting the culture and jobs of hardworking british laborers.

It was through the APL that the National Front started recruiting skinheads, who were vulnerable to that train of thought because of their angry, working class roots. The NF then started calling themselves NFS, National Front Skinheads, and transforming the image of skinheads to inspire fear. The same soon happened across the pond.

The reason it reminds you of Clockwork is because the "droogs" are in fact largely based on skinheads, and there is an entire segment of the skin population who "go clockwork," dressing in all white except their boots and a bowler.

[spin]

14. Youth gangs have been active in the States...

for many decades:

When cities experienced immigration and industrial development in the latter part of the nineteenth century, organized adolescent groups heavily involved in crime can be identified as gangs were reported to be active in New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis, and Pittsburgh as early as 1870. Disorganized aggregations of the children of immigrants from Ireland and Italy roamed the streets of their neighborhoods, largely as disorganized groups, engaged primarily in petty forms of property and crime and directing violence against one another and members of rival gangs.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/1479/Juvenile-Youth-Gangs-History.html

Another story my father told me...

He was born in 1900 and raised in Pittsburgh, Pa.

In his somewhat misspent youth he belonged to a street gang. They mainly fought other street gangs for entertainment, but one time a member of the other gang obtained a firearm. He didn't manage to hit anyone when he fired it but it broke the fight up quickly.

My dad's gang decided a good plan was to roll drunks for money when they left the bar. They pulled this scheme off a few times but apparently chose the wrong bar once too often. When they jumped the drunk, he yelled. The door of the bar popped open and a pile of very angry steel workers emerged. The somewhat intoxicated steel workers chased my father's gang and beat the crap out of any of the kids they caught.

My dad said he learned a valuable lesson that night. Don't mess with steelworkers. They're big and they're mean.

Back in those days people didn't always call the police. They handled problems on their own. Of course they didn't have to worry about a lawsuit by some punk assed teenagers parents.

[iverglas]

15. with rerun season upon us

we may finally get around to watching the dvd of Gangs of New York that's been sitting in a pile for a couple of years.


Of course they didn't have to worry about a lawsuit by some punk assed teenagers parents.

But then there was always the possibility of one of the punks dying, or a non-punk kid passing by being mistaken for one of the gang, or the steelworkers not having noticed the fact that the particular drunk that night was the one who tried to beat up a punk kid first ...

So many reasonably good reasons to object to vigilante justice.

Not that I don't think it takes a village and all. ;)

[spin]

16. While I also see value in our current system...

the encounter with the steel workers probably caused my father to reconsider his gang activity or at least limit it.

He decided to try boxing as a means to focus his aggression. He did get into the ring with a club boxer for a three round fight. He told me he won the first round. The second round was a draw as he was tiring. He lost the third round and the fight and realized afterward that the club boxer was merely waiting for him to tire.

But he was determined and went back for another fight. His father found out and showed up at the club and pulled my dad out by the ear. My grandfather told my dad that no son of his would end up as a punch drunk fighter.

When WW1 came along he decided to run away from home and join the army. He made it far enough in basic training to fire a machine gun before his mother showed up and pulled him out as he was too young. Apparently you had t be 18 years old, but if you looked 18 you could join.

So he became a steel worker for a while. He left to work as an insurance investigator for the Retail Credit Corp. To get the job he lied about having a college education. He worked the Hill District section of Pittsburgh which was a fairly tough area at the time. He told me he was good at the job because he made friends on both sides of the law. One time when the police department decided to crack down on the numbers game, he was asked to run numbers for a couple of months. Since he was friends with the police, the bookie figured that no one would suspect him. After the police eased up, he was offered a job but declined it as once you get into the rackets you don't get out easily. Strange that today the numbers racket is legal. Back in those days you would bet 10 cents and win $60 if your three numbers hit. Apparently my grandmother was very lucky and won quite often. I wish I would have inherited that luck.

In WW2 he was too old to fight but worked on loan for Navel Intelligence investigating scientists for the Manhattan Project from the Pittsburgh area. He also was involved in an investigation of a German spy ring that would take out large insurance policies on items such as yachts, sink them, and send the money back to Germany. He was authorized to carry a firearm during this period, but was supposed to call the police before directly confronting any members of the sp ring. He and a partner walked into a warehouse and unknowingly cornered a member. The German spy fired several rounds before escaping. My father told me he flattened himself out on the floor and attempted to dig a hole in the concrete with his finger nails. Being shot at is no fun according to him.

One advantage of working for Navel Intelligence was that you didn't have to ration the gasoline for your car. He was stopped several times by the police because they observed him driving so often.

But he was involved in an accident when a police officer lost control of his motorcycle and hit my father's car broadside in the driver’s door. My father's head was slammed up against the window and he developed epilepsy. Under our current legal system he could have sued and had a much better life. Not so then. The accident messed his life and our family’s life up.

He decided to leave Pittsburgh and move to Ohio. He bought and ran a tourist home on Route 20 until the freeways diverted traffic in the 60's. With his epilepsy jobs were difficult to obtain. Our family was poor but I really never was aware of it. My mother worked as a store clerk to support us and my dad worked when he could.

I remember him as a tough father with an Irish temper. He brokered no nonsense and if I looked at him in a manner that he considered disrespectful, he would knock me flat with an open hand blow to my head. I had no choice but to get good grades in school. At that time, I hated him. As I look back now, I realize he taught me a lot.

He was always interested in the news and spent a lot of time reading. He was able to predict events that would occur in the future, such as the racial problems of the 60's. He was far from racist and predicted that in 100 years the racial problems would disappear and intermarriage would between white and black would solve the problem. He always felt that America was the great melting pot and intermarriage of all the ethnic groups was our greatest strength.

He also was a staunch Democrat. When I expressed the views I'd learned from him in high school the teacher called me a Communist. She failed to convince me that I was wrong and I still am a Democrat today, obviously with good reason.

He also taught me the basics of boxing which I used to win several fights in high school. I was a little guy, but I just wouldn't back down from bullies. I was taught never to provoke a fight but if necessary to fight to win and cause enough damage that would gain me the reputation as someone not to pick on. One bully who went out of his way to make my life miserable had the last name of Kovaks. Finally I'd had enough. He liked to slap people around. Realizing this I provoked him. When he slapped me and I hit him as hard as I could twice in the nose and possibly broke it. The kid was a total asshole and he deserved what he got. When he returned to school the next day his nose was so swollen and red that I was called "Kovaks Killer". No more high school fights after that incident. In today's school system both of us would have been suspended. Times were different than.

Later I became friends with a guy who was part of his click. I asked why Kovaks would always bother me and he explained, "When our group would walk down the hallway, everyone including the teachers would step out of our way. But there was this one little bastard who would walk right through us." I guess my attitude caused the problem.

While now I have great respect for my father and the tough love he showed me, I often fantasized as a teenager of reaching the point where I had the strength and ability to take him on and beat him in a fight. I then planned to leave the house and head out on my own. He developed heart disease and died after several years when I was 15 years old. Had he been in good health I probably would have got my ass kicked when I tried to take him on. Fortunately, I never had the chance to find out.

Surprising, considering my own views, my father was totally opposed to guns and having a firearm in the house. My mother however had been raised around firearms and was in her youth quite good with her father's .45 automatic. She once used a .22 S&W Ladysmith which she carried in her purse to stop an attack from an individual when she was walking home from work. She still had that firearm hidden in a drawer in the house and of course I found it. I would load it and play with it. My father realizing how dangerous a gun could be with a child around had fortunately removed the firing pin. That's the reason I lock all my weapons up in a safe since I have two grandchildren.

We all are a product of our life experiences and our upbringing. This helps to explain why some of us are pro-gun and others anti-gun. Both sides have valid points and sometimes both sides talk nonsense.

It's fun reminiscing about my long dead father and mother. I often wish I could talk to them today. When you're young you don't appreciate your parents.

[gorfle]

5. There is no doubt.

There is no doubt that curbing access to firearms will curb crimes committed with firearms. Our laws concerning fully-automatic weapons are so restrictive that fully-automatic weapons are effectively out of circulation, and consequently are almost never used in crime. Many countries such as Canada enjoy low firearm crime rates no doubt largely due to how heavily they are restricted.

So the question continues to be, are we as a society willing to give up the rights of 40-80 million firearm owners for the actions of several hundred thousand every year? I continue to say no. I will not give up generations of responsible firearm ownership in my family for the sake of criminals. Nor will I empower my government to target firearm owners at will.

[iverglas]

8. you think?

So the question continues to be, are we as a society willing to give up the rights of 40-80 million firearm owners for the actions of several hundred thousand every year?

That's your question.

The question others ask is more like are we as a society willing to endure thousands of deaths, tens of thousands of injuries, millions of dollars in costs to individuals, families and societies, to humour a self-centred minority with no genuine interests at stake?


Many countries such as Canada enjoy low firearm crime rates no doubt largely due to how heavily they are restricted.

Well! May I quote you?

[benEzra]

6. Looks like Mr. Rosenthal has either had a change of heart...

or is trying to reinvent himself. This is the same John Rosenthal who was booted from the American Hunters and Shooters Association last year for being too anti-gun even for them.

http://www.huntersandshooters.org/node/1419


February 21, 2008

AHSA announces John Rosenthal’s resignation date from its Board of Directors and clarifies that since then he has had no further involvement with group

Washington, D.C. - February 21, 2008 – In order to provide clarification about the leadership of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (ASHA), today AHSA announces that John Rosenthal formally announced his resignation from the AHSA board of directors effective Monday, May 21, 2007. The other founding members of the AHSA board of directors are grateful to John for his assistance in launching our organization, however we acknowledge that his active involvement with certain gun control organizations made it very difficult for Mr. Rosenthal to subscribe to and support our policies that at times could be inconsistent with those of a pro-gun hunting and shooting organization.

Mr. Rosenthal has had no involvement with AHSA since May 21, 2007, and does not speak for AHSA. Any public views expressed by Mr. Rosenthal regarding the "gun issue" or other firearm policy matters do not necessarily reflect the views or policies of the American Hunters and Shooters Association.

Here is John Rosenthal bashing noted police and CHL firearms trainer Massad Ayoob for teaching the Little People about shooting and self-defense law:

http://weeklywire.com/ww/11-29-99/boston_feature_1.html

As Stop Handgun Violence's John Rosenthal puts it, "Ayoob says he's training law-abiding citizens. But he could be training a law-abiding citizen who is planning a mass shooting. There are 900 new felons every year. There have been eight mass shootings in seven months, many by people without criminal records in the past."

And, of course, here's Mr. Rosenthal's famous description of the most popular centerfire target rifles and defensive carbines in U.S. homes:

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/alerts/reader/0,2061,571186,00.html (link now dead)

Assault weapons are truly weapons of mass destruction whose only purpose is to kill as many people as possible without having to stop and reload. Twenty percent of police officers killed in the line of duty are killed with these weapons which are designed to penetrate police body armor from more than 1000 yards. That's why every major police organization in the nation supports extending the ban," stated John Rosenthal.

Yep, 7.62x39mm and .223 will penetrate police body armor at 1000 yards, just like a Honda Civic will go 350 mph and get 250 mpg. And it's amazing that those cartridges and rifles were designed to penetrate Kevlar body armor long before Kevlar body armor was invented. Cool, huh?

[SteveM]

11. The OP noted Rosenthal owned a rifle. Did the store clerk use a rifle?...

If not, and instead he used a handgun, does Rosenthal's view now incorporate a more reasonable opinion of pistols and revolvers?