Florida, a leader.............

[russ1943]

From 2005’s 521 firearms murders to 2007’s 825 is a 58.3% increase in the number of people murdered with firearms in Florida.
58%! ……………………………………..FIFTY EIGHT PER CENT!
http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/c4f22859-0482-402e-add2-ccfd866e464b/firearms_2007.aspx

Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR show nationally homicide by firearms decreased from 2005 to 2007 by an insignificant .7%. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html

From even before the late 80’s when CCW became law in Florida firearms have been used in about two thirds of murders, that is the same as it usually is nationally. Interestingly the ratio between handguns and “other” firearms was changing, until they just quit posting statistics in 1996, hmmmmmmmmmm.
The handgun to other firearms ratio at the time of the earliest stats available (1971) was
55% handgun and 13% other firearms used in firearms murders in Florida.

In 1995, the last year those stats are available ???? at that site, the handgun percentage had declined to just less than 45% and the other firearms, (assault weapons?) had increased to 22% of the people murdered in 1995 with firearm in Florida.
http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/332e1b3d-2648-4b06-8be5-d322f340c95d/1971_fwd_murder_firearms.aspx

One in a series of articles still available online;
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-gunmain28jan28,0,2918397.story

[russ1943]

1. CCW holders don't commit crimes..............

PEMBROKE PINES — Both men flashed the middle finger to each other as they drove in a game of chicken, one pulling in front of the other and slamming on his brakes. The two men didn't know each other, but live within two miles of each other and are both described by neighbors and friends as calm, pleasant people.Investigators said Wonder admitted shooting Pettit. Police said one of several guns recovered at his home may have been used in the shooting. Wonder had a valid concealed weapons license at the time of the shooting.
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/aug/08/finger-gestures-brake-slamming-then-road-rage-turn/

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

3. Where did it say he had a CCW permit?

[spin]

5. Other news stories reported that fact...

Wonder has a concealed weapons permit, according to state records.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/iphone/sfl-flbagent0807pnaug07,0,517700,iphone.story

The current rage in the anti-gun circles is to point out every single criminal incident that a permit holder is involved in.

For example read this statement from the Brady Campaign:

The gun lobby claims that all concealed permit holders are "law-abiding" citizens and will use their concealed handguns to deter and thwart crime. This is not a true statement, as documented by the crimes and misdeeds committed by permit holders every day.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/issues/concealedcarry/

The provide a report on these crimes at:
http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/facts/2008-ccw-crimes-misdeeds.pdf

They point out:

The number of crime victims who successfully use firearms to defend themselves is quite small. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and the Centers for Disease Control, out of 29,569 Americans who died by gunfire in 2004, only 229 were shot in justifiable homicides by private citizens with firearms.

Of course, this ignores the many incidents in which private citizens successfully used firearms to deter criminals without anyone being shot. And you definitely won't see The Brady Campaign publish a report listing the 229 justifiable homicides and the lives that the firearms saved in these incidents.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. Thanks it wasn't in his linked article.

[Taitertots]

18. The Brady List is funny

You would think with over 200 justified homicides they could come up with more than 23 pages of anecdotes, mostly not murders.

Also more than half the people Brady counts as died by gun fire killed themselves. More people get shot that want to be shot, then people getting shot that didn't want to be shot.

[spin]

4. Nobody ever said that CCW holders don't commit crimes...

but they do commit less firearm related crime than other gun owners and far less than criminals.

This map show the status of concealed carry in the United States. If there was a major problem with concealed carry or the people with carry permits, some of the "shall issue" states would have revoked the law.



The two states that currently deny citizens any form of concealed carry Illinois and Wisconsin, have strong movements to adopt the law.

If CCW holders didn't commit crimes, the solution to the criminal problem in our country would be to make sure every adult had a concealed carry permit.

[Howzit]

2. These stats don't seem to add up

"The handgun to other firearms ratio at the time of the earliest stats available (1971) was
55% handgun and 13% other firearms used in firearms murders in Florida."

I suppose the other 32% of shootings was committed with trigger fingers?

[russ1943]

7. Clarifications

To poster # 3 & 6
Try reading my post. It is an abbreviated version of the linked article. The last sentence of my post (before the link) is "Wonder had a valid concealed weapons license at the time of the shooting". In answer to your query,that is where, it, I and the article referenced, all, clearly state the fact that the shooter had a "a concealed weapons license at the time of the shooting".
Are you be questioning the wording difference between "concealed weapons license" and "CCW", or are you demonstrating your inability to read and/or comprehend??


To poster # 2, I made the mistake of thinking that someone interested enough in commenting, would look at the linked source. It was more obvious from the source that the percentages were of the total of firearms murders (only). My quote was less clear, but I did state (awkwardly perhaps) that;
the percentages were of "firearms used in firearms murders
in Florida".
Obviously not all murders are committed with firearms, but I also noted in my post that "about two thirds of murders"... in this country, are committed with firearms.

You can lead em to water, but ya can't make em drink.

[yay]

8. What exactly is your point?

Also "other weapons" does not mean "assault weapons". It means anything that isn't a pistol. Everything from a cricket bolt action .22 rifle to a barrett .50 BMG would fall under "other weapons"

Also since 2005 Florida has had about a 2million population increase, I wouldn't be pointing this souly at CCW.

[russ1943]

12. FLORIDA

"What is my point?"
To provide some accurate data regarding firearms (the forum is guns) deaths in Florida.

You posted “Also "other weapons" does not mean "assault weapons". It means anything that isn't a pistol.”
DUH!
The parenthesis and question mark were meant to imply that some of the other category probably would include assault weapons. I didn’t post that "other weapons" meant only assault weapons. Anybody would realize that. The emphasis was to make some really dense people understand that most assault weapons (those not categorized as assault pistols) probably would fall into the other category. There have been a lot of stories, articles and editorials about the proliferation of assault weapons in Florida.
eg. OrlandoSentinel.com 2/3/2009 EDITORIAL We think: A renewed federal assault weapons is long overdue.
The Miami Herald http://www.mcclatchydc.com/337/v-print/story/61477.html ban is long overdue

Also I’ve always found it fascinating that someone would comment by posting a criticism of anothers post and clearly not know what they’re talking about. Why would you post;
“Also since 2005 Florida has had about a 2million population increase, I wouldn't be pointing this souly at CCW."
Did you check on Florida’s population?
What was it in 2005? What year are you comparing it to? Did you just make this up?
HINT!
One of the links I provided in my OP to verify the information I posted, included Florida’s population figures for the years referenced (as well as others). My link shows that Florida’s population increased by a lot less than 2million, actually considerably less than 1 million.

You posted;"I wouldn't be pointing this souly at CCW".

Neither would I.

Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.
It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics.

Both;quotes George Bernard Shaw

[yay]

16. Right...

"Also I’ve always found it fascinating that someone would comment by posting a criticism of anothers post and clearly not know what they’re talking about. Why would you post;"

Funny, ironic. You're right though I read the study wrong. I was comparing it to 2000 or so for some reason. My bad.

Anyhow, I think it's funny that you quote Florida as an example of a reason for the renewal of the AWB, despite the overwhelming evidence that, nationally it has done jack. Actually since it's expiration, and despite private gun ownership being at an all time high the rate of these weapons being used is less than .1% nationally. Violent crime was at it's lowest point in years.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-pbmail3371pnfeb06,0,6448006.story
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html

So despite the the clear LACK of evidence that the AWB did anything but increase the appetite of the American consumer for said type of firearm, you still hold on to the idea that it will somehow reduce crime?

Have fun with that...

[FLAprogressive]

9. how much is Brady paying you to post this?

[Furyataurus]

10. So?????

Are you going to get to a point or what?

[jmg257]

11. But they were #22 in the nation murder-rate wise (5 per 100,000) in '07.

Despite getting an F- rating from Brady.

Don't foget:
#1 DC (A+) at 35.4/100,000
#2 Maryland (A-) at 9.9 70% w/handguns!!
#11 California (B+) at 6.9 71% w/handguns!!
#20 Illinois (A+) at 6 71% w/handguns!!!

I know you had a point somewhere in there, just not sure what it was???

[russ1943]

13. FLORIDA

FBI’S UCR 2007 Clearly shows Florida’s murder rate 6.6.
Look at Table 5, Titled “Crime in the United States by state 2007” http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_05.html
The states are listed in alphabetical order, Florida is the only state listed in the F’s.
Where do you get your statistics?
District of Columbia isn’t a state, it is a city!

[russ1943]

14. CCW holders don't commit crimes..............

St Petersberg Times Staff Writer
Pasco deputies said that as Richard Lunn discussed a Glock .357-caliber with his son, he pulled the trigger and accidentally shot his wife in the chest………..Wilcox said Richard Lunn was an avid gun collector. Records indicate he had a concealed weapons permit (that expired in July). http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article832186.ece
Clarification
On Tuesday, the Pasco Times reported that records showed that Richard Lunn, who accidentally shot his wife, Linda, over the weekend, had a concealed weapons permit that expired in July. Lunn said he has renewed his permit and it expires in 2015. The Times was unable to verify this because information on concealed weapon permits is no longer open to the public. Linda Lunn is in serious condition at Bayfront Medical Center, according to hospital staff. http://www.tampabay.com/news/briefs/article835127.ece

[yay]

15. For the love of...

Yeah CCW's do commit crimes but look at the actual amount of crimes committed by them and the overall rate. Are you just posting 3 examples to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction? Or do you actually have a point to this thread?

[gorfle]

17. Look at the statistics.

No one said CCW holders don't commit crimes. But based on available statistics, they commit crimes at a rate lower than the general public.

[spin]

19. Look at this list of recent airplane crashes!

It obvious that traveling on an aircraft is very dangerous!

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/recent.htm

Yes, on rare occasions a person with a CCW permit does misuse his weapon. On rare occasions planes crash because of pilot error, equipment malfunction or birds.

[russ1943]

20. Orlando's murder victims facing assault weapons.

orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-edped181031809mar18,0,4845042.story
OrlandoSentinel.com
Put 'em away
We think: Assault-weapons ban one way to fight back against violent crime
March 18, 2009
Quite expectedly, gun zealots are on the defensive following the recent shooting rampages in Alabama and Germany.

"The enemies of Liberty will use anything as an excuse to rape our civil rights," read a recent blog post by a gun activist.

Please, spare us the righteous indignation.

Most sensible people understand the difference between the legitimate, constitutional right to bear arms and the rat-a-tat chaos inflicted by assault weapons.

If people want to protect their homes they don't need an assault weapon.

It's time to get new ones off the streets by reinstating the assault-weapons ban that expired in 2004.

President Barack Obama has the political juice to make it happen, and it's on his list of things to do. He's said so on the campaign trial.

Go for it, sir………………..
Orlando Police Chief Val Demings understands the danger locally. She has no quarrel with true sporting-gun enthusiasts or those who want to protect their homes.

But Ms. Demings has serious concerns over criminals and other dangerous characters having such easy access to assault weapons, as if arming themselves for Armageddon. That's what it looks like on some of our nation's streets today. She sees it. Most of those who argue so passionately to protect assault weapons do not.

In Orange County alone, deputies have seized 321 AK-47s, AR-15s and other high-powered weapons between 2003 and 2007. And of the 42 murders in Orlando last year, five involved assault weapons, including the triple-murder at The Palms Apartments……………………………….
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-edped181031809mar18,0,3324129,print.story



(5 of 42 That’s about 12%)

[ManiacJoe]

21. I suppose we could play buzzword bingo.

The editorialist shows his ignorance of guns by implying that there is something special about "assault weapons" that requires special regulations on them. (Never mind his confusion of "assault weapons" with assault rifles.)

There is nothing special about "assault weapons" that would lead one to think there needs to be special regulations on them. Most of the common definitions of "assault weapon" do a poor job of describing a subset of rifles realistically described as "ergonomic semi-auto carbines".

These rifles are currently the most popular rifles in the country. They are great for recreational target shooting, great for (and often required for) competition shooting, excellent for small game hunting, and good for home defense.

The problem is not the weapons used in the attacks. The problem is that the attacks are happening at all regardless of the weapons used. Trying to disarm the Good Guys via another useless "assault weapons" ban does not solve the problem of the Bad Guys having weapons (any weapons) of which they are already prohibited from having.

[slackmaster]

22. The "AW" "Ban" that expired in 2004 DID NOT stop the sale of AKs or AR-15s

It just forced manufacturers and importers to make a few minor modifications.

Both types of rifles were sold in large numbers during the "ban"; so reinstating it would be pointless even if those types of rifles really were the problem.

What idiots.

[benEzra]

23. They put out fact-free drivel like that, and then wonder why newspaper sales are declining.

Civilian AK's were just as legal for manufacture, sale, transfer, and possession between 1994 and 2004 as they are now, in Florida and everywhere else.

I bought mine in Florida in 2003 (it's a 2002 model):



And, of course, rifles account for about 3% of murders nationally, and all civilian AK's are non-automatic, just like everything else. But pesky facts like that would undermine the TERRAH!, and I guess the Sentinel can't have that...

[raimius]

24. Bah

They're trying to beat the City of Chicago! (Good thing Chicago virtually banned guns, otherwise it might be the "murder capital of the US"...oh, wait...)

Now, since we know that Florida did not suddenly discover the existance firearms, what is the source of this increase?
To me, it sounds like an organized crime problem...

Also, please realize the Sentinel is about as biased as the Diane Feinstein.