Sometimes a defensive gun would be useful in church

[Indy Lurker]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7033937&page=1


"The Rev. Fred Winters was at the pulpit at the First Baptist Church in Maryville, Ill., at 8:15 a.m. local time when a man wearing dark clothing approached the pulpit, exchanged words with the pastor and then fired four shots, Illinois State Police Director Larry Trent said at a news conference late today."

"The first shot hit the pastor's Bible "It hit the very top of the Bible and exploded on top of the Bible and turned into what many thought was confetti," Trent said. "In fact, some thought it was some type of skit or some type of program at the time." "

"After his gun jammed (after firing 4 shots), the shooter injured himself with a knife and subsequently was restrained by parishioners, Timmins said in a "preliminary release" left on his office voicemail recording. Approximately 150 people were in the church at the time, and Trent said video recordings of the service may provide clues as to what triggered the shooting. "

"Authorities said the shooter, who received very serious injuries, is a 27-year-old with no prior criminal record. His identity will not be released until he is criminally charged."


Luckily the shooters gun jammed, or additional people could have been hurt.

And once again in Illinis, just like NIU, the only person with a gun during an armed conflict is the criminal.

[Ian David]

1. Global Warming spreads lyme disease which may be what drove the attacker insane.

The only thing that could have saved this pastor was a very small gun that can shoot ticks.

[Warpy]

4. Or a combination of universal healthcare

combined with education about Lyme disease and its initial symptoms.

The saddest ones are the ones who get it when they're children and don't think to tell Mom or Dad about that funny looking rash.

[Captain Hilts]

2. More guns in church! More guns in church!!!!

How stupid.

[spin]

13. The shooter had plenty of ammo...

Mudge also says Sedlacek brought enough rounds of ammunition to First Baptist Church in Maryville on Sunday to kill 30 people. Investigators said four rounds were fired before the his gun jammed.
http://news.aol.com/article/illinois-church-shooting/374149

Had his gun not jammed, he would have probably shot many more people. A church member with a concealed weapon might have been able to stop him. Of course, there is a possibility that if Illinois allowed concealed carry, he might not have chose a church to attack.

If you were sitting in a church when an armed madman started killing people and an armed citizen stopped him, you would have a different opinion of concealed carry.

[beevul]

15. Yes, because we all know what happens when you get more guns in churches

Well...those of us who were paying attention, anyway:



Armed Volunteer Ends Colorado Church Shooting
Special from GunWeek Magazine
By Dave Workman, 1/4/2008 11:40:10 AM
She had been a police officer some years ago in Minneapolis, MN, but on Sunday, Dec. 9, in Colorado Springs, CO, Jeanne Assam was a legally-armed private citizen volunteering as a security staffer at the New Life Center when she repeatedly shot gunman Matthew Murray, who then took his own life, according to an autopsy report.

Her cool, swift action has perhaps forever opened wide the debate about guns in so-called “gun-free zones,” and how, in the right hands, those firearms can save lives.

Murray, 24, was carrying two handguns and a semi-automatic rifle, and what published reports estimated was at least 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/storyPrint.aspx?15e66985-d458-4483-b7d1-f7d3095db1c7

Jeanne Assam Hailed for Ending Colorado Church Shooting

Atlanta, GA 12/11/2007 05:42 PM GMT (FINDITT)



Jeanne Assam thanked God for her steady hand as ended a church shooting in Colorado Sunday afternoon.

Assam, a volunteer security guard at New Life Church, brought down the gunman who shot five parishioners in a Colorado church shooting. The gunman was later identified as Matthew Murray.

Colorado Springs police say that if Assam had not shot Murray, he would have killed many more people.

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30262&cat=11


Naww...that never happpens...

[TWiley]

31. I thought that having a gun in church would make it safer?

[ManiacJoe]

32. For "generically more", no.

For "more guns by the Good Guys", yes it would be safer.

[provis99]

3. but what if there's a gun-toting criminal at the local public pool?

We need to have guns that can fit in bikinis.

[DBoon]

7. I have a comment about "guns in bikinis"

but if I posted it, I would likely get banned...

[tridim]

9. Skeet surfin' USA!

[benEzra]

17. Voila...

[Ezlivin]

5. So would ejection seats in the pews

And I say this as an ex-minister.

[Thirtieschild]

6. MLK Jr's mother was shot in church, killed

was shot and killed on June 30, 1974 by 23 year-old Marcus Wayne Chenault as she sat at the organ of the Ebenezer Baptist Church. Chenault was a deranged gunman from Ohio who stated that he shot King because "all Christians are my enemies."<[br />
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Williams_King

[catnhatnh]

8. Yep, that's just what I want...

...in the servant of God I choose to tell me about the Prince of Peace...a CCW.

[spin]

14. Christ didn't disapprove of weapons...

And said to them, "When I sent you with out money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end. "So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." (Luke 22:35-38)

[Xela]

22. I have understood these words...

...the following way.

Jesus knew what was going to happen to him, so he needed to make sure that some of his men were armed so that he could do the cut-off ear miracle when he was arrested.

I don't think he was OK with people being armed, actually...maybe he wanted to demonstrate the folly of them, and in the meantime demonstrate his power.

I always thought this part of the bible was being misused by RKBA apologists.

But what do I know, I'm an atheist :)

Xela

[spin]

26. It always fascinates me...

one how sometimes the "truly religious" or "born again" people state that everything in the Bible should be taken as literal truth. However, when they run across something they disagree with, they argue that it has a different meaning...

Did Jesus Really Mean for Them to Buy a Sword?

Let me argue both sides; then you decide.

On the one hand, it wasn't uncommon for travelers to carry a short sword to protect themselves against bandits and thieves who preyed on them in the lonely stretches of road. Jesus may be anticipating the time when the disciples would travel hundreds of miles beyond Jerusalem, as tradition tells us they did. To carry a small sword doesn't make them violent or evil men, just men prepared for any contingency.

********snip********

On the other hand, Jesus seems critical of violence and using weapons. The sword is generally used in the Bible to indicate warfare and violence. Jesus recognizes that he is introducing a faith that will arouse intense antagonism. "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34).

When Peter draws his sword and cuts of an ear in his zeal to prevent Jesus' imminent arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus responds, "Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matthew 26:51-52). He may have been trying to protect Peter from immediate death, since Judas was accompanied by the armed temple guard against which one or two swords would have been no match. If Peter hadn't sheathed his sword immediately, he probably would have been struck down by the soldiers. But Jesus seems to be laying down a general truth -- violent men can expect to die violent deaths.
http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/22_35-38.htm

And some say:

Second, by far the clearest purpose of the symbolism of two swords is found in 22:36—37, when Jesus refers to Isaiah's prophecy (53:12) about being numbered with the lawless in the context of swords. He was destined to be falsely arrested like a criminal, falsely put on trial like a criminal, and even falsely crucified like a criminal. After all, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is a further fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39—43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered with them Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy in a symbolic way.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/04/did_jesus_or_muhammad_wield_th.html

I don't feel that pointing out Luke 22 is a misuse of the Bible. I prefer the simple interpretation of what he said. He wasn't advising his followers to live a violent life, but was saying that weapons might prove useful for self defense.

It's like the argument that the Bible prohibits drinking alcohol. Christ's first miracle was turning water into wine (John 2:1-11). A wedding ran out of wine, so Jesus converted 120 to 180 gallons of water to wine. YEHAW!!!

Of course many argue that he merely made grape juice.

"Wine" is a generic word, referring to both fermented and unfermented grape juice, as used in the Bible and many other sources (cf. THE BIBLE, THE SAINT, and THE LIQUOR INDUSTRY, Jim McGuiggan, pp.173-176).

Used of fermented wine: Gen. 9:21; Prov. 23:29-35; Hab. 2:15). Of unfermented wine: Isa. 65:8; Num. 6:3; 18:12; Joel 1:10,12; Matt. 9:17. The reasons for rejecting intoxicating wine in John 2 are:

A holy and sinless Jesus would not make up to 150 gallons of intoxicating wine for sinners on which to get drunk, knowing the evil results which have flowed from its use.

The usual drink in Jesus day was unfermented grape juice as a common beverage.
http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=774

In my opinion, he made wine not grape juice, and a damn good time was had by everyone.

Note: while I'm not an atheist, plenty of Christians have passed judgment on me and told me I would burn in Hell. I just point out that fortunately it's not their job to pass judgement.

[Xela]

27. FSM and self defense, or FSM and Second Amendment.

Now you're making me wonder what does the Flying Spaghetti Monster has to say about this.

I happen to know from a very high authority that he approves of ninjas high on oregano and basil.

Xela

May His Holiness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, reach out to you with one of his succulent and noodly appendages and provide all the meaty sauce your life desires.

RAmen

[spin]

28. Good one LOL (nt)

[gizmo1979]

10. How low have we sunk

that we are even thinking of guns in church.Sad sad sad.I'd say we have a problem.

[virginia mountainman]

11. YEP,

Some people think "gun free" zones actually do ANYTHING to stop a madman...

Seems like an awful lot of "gun free" zones have allot of mass shootings. When it is known fact that all it does is force honest folks to disarm, and give the attackers the assurance that they will not meet any armed resistance.

[Vini_Vidivici]

12. Exactly

The trend of mass shootings in "gun free zones", AKA "criminal protection zones", is obvious, and for reasons stated above.

Guns in church? We have a problem? Why yes, yes we do. We have a society that is WAY to lenient of the criminal element.

Folks should be allowed to defend themselves no matter where they are. Moreso in church, that is their church family, they should protect one another. God would approve, I believe. He does not expect people to be sheep in that sense.

[pipoman]

16. Curious why there is laws in some states with CCW laws

against CCW in church buildings. It is not like people use mind altering substances there as they do in a bar. It seems a fair amount of nut jobs target churches as the source of their problems. In years gone by, I have carried in church when on call, never had any compulsion to shoot anybody.

[TheWraith]

18. Some people here would say church IS a mind altering substance.

:D

[HALO141]

23. Simple

It's a political bone tossed to a particular flavor of nervous nellie to get the law passed. In a state where religious organizations hold some sway over public policy, well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Texas repealed its prohibition on concealed carry in churches a few years back.

[yay]

19. Dupe... I support the right to CCW anywhere..

man I hate laggy computers.

I think it should be legal to CCW anywhere personally. It's not the guy with the legal permit you have to worry about.

[yay]

20. Preserving the lives of innocents is a problem?

Wonder what kind of junker this guy managed to find at a pawn shop, probably crap ammo too.

[Indy Lurker]

21. I can't say the problem is worse

Millions attend services every week without incident.

It's a very rare occurrence when a shooting happens in a church.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared.

Even though church fires are rare, we still have and allow fire extinguishers in church, and hopefully have people trained to use them.

Likewise, if individuals choose to prepare for physical conflict, we shouldn't outlaw the tools necessary for the job.

[aikoaiko]

24. There is no good reason to exclude churches from CCW by legislation.

It should be up to the church.

[Furyataurus]

25. Good job for the parishiners........

btw, I carry in church.

[Dukkha]

29. then that would make a church a 'Faith-Free Zone'

if the believers feel they need to be armed in the house of the lord.

[ManiacJoe]

30. God helps those who help themselves.

So the saying goes....