What happens when a legal owner of an assault rifle or handgun wants to sell his weapon?

[rollingrock]

let's say the original legal owner gets tired of it or needs to make some quick cash so he decides to sell it? or say one day he loses his job and becomes desperate to convert his handgun and assault rifle collection to raise some needed cash? I could be wrong, but it seems to me that this is one of the ways that these weapons often end up in the wrong hands. let's say he sells his AK47semi-auto to his brother or a son who is a bit of shady character or is less responsible than he is, or gives him the gun as a hand-me down birthday gift. other potential buyers might be his neighbors, friends, relatives, etc.

I guess, the original owner could try to sell it at a pawn shop but that's not really the best option for someone who wants to get a decent price for it, is it? so now you have a bunch of assault weapons circulating in the second hand market among unknown people without the benefit of background checks or records for the transaction, etc. I read somewhere that this market is
pretty big and major means that guns end up in the wrong hands.

by posting this I'm not saying I am for or against more gun control, just seeking some opinions/information.

[floridablue]

1. I would investigate selling to the police or FBI

[pipoman]

5. You're kidding right? n/t

[emilyg]

13. I did.

Took my gun to police station - filled out paper work. The policeman gave me money. All happy.

[pipoman]

24. Sounds like

a "gun buy back" program. These programs have to be funded. They usually have a set amount they pay for each gun or they give a gift certificate to a local store. The amount is usually far less than a decent gun would sell for on the market and far more than a junk gun would sell for. I have heard of long time collectors who, over the years, had accumulated some junk guns in their collections taking the junk in and getting more than they are worth. OTOH I have not heard of too many people who have decent guns taking them to the buy back unless they either just wanted rid of the gun or had no idea what they had. Unless there is a current 'buy back' program going on, taking your gun to the police or (snick) FBI would be as silly as taking your car to the eye doctor to try to sell it...he might want it, but what are the odds?

[emilyg]

26. Nope.

Decided one day that a gun was not for me. Took it to police station - a young cop said he would buy it from me.

[Tim01]

2. Where I live

it is no different than selling any other piece of private property.

[TheWraith]

3. If you're really concerned, just take it to a gun shop that sells via consignment.

They'd have to pay some money to the shop, but there would probably be more potential buyers than just shopping it around personally, so it evens out.

[MineralMan]

4. How about a gun shop?

It might buy the firearm outright or, if you're not in a huge rush, it might sell it on consignment. That would deal with any legal issues.

If you're in a huge rush, then trying to get top price is probably not going to work out, so check to see what you're offered at a couple of shops.

[rollingrock]

8. I don't own any guns personally

It got me thinking though, since I know someone who recently started to sell off his gun collection privately. He already sold a 9mm handgun to a neighbor and another one to a friend of ours. He has a bunch of assorted rifles, handguns and a shotgun he wants to sell. I guess I was just thinking outloud, oh great a lot more guns on the street just what we needed.

[david13]

6. Most people just go down to the bar on the corner,

and sell it over a few friendly drinks.
dc

[pipoman]

7. The fastest way to get the most now days

is the eBay of gun sales, gunbroker.com. It is simple, you get retail, it only takes a week to run the auction. Another option which is just as good is to sell on one of the gun forums. This way you are selling a person a gun which is that person's first choice, they will pay retail for it. The last 3 guns I have sold have been through gun forums to out of state buyers. It was simple and safe. Mailed it directly to the buyers FFL dealer where the buyer completed the NICS check then took the gun home. It leaves a paper trail if someone is later injured with the gun I can prove I no longer have it and they can find the paperwork for the transfer.

[rollingrock]

10. Interesting

I will let'em know about that auction site. Sounds a lot better than going to the pawn store which is the only other option my friend seems to be aware of.

[pipoman]

15. It is much

safer too. My suggestion would be for your friend to go to a local pawn shop (which sells guns), introduce him/herself, explain that he is going to be selling some guns through gunbroker and ask how much the broker would charge to mail guns to out of state buyers FFL for him. Any gun dealer can do this but most would rather sell guns than mess with mailing them in my experience. OTOH most pawnshops will take the transfer fee and be happy to do it.

The process goes like this. You list on gunbroker and sell. You have the buyer send you a copy of their dealers FFL license with payment. Don't accept paypal, it is against their rules. Take the gun, packing materials, and the license to the pawn shop, the pawn broker will want to inspect the package contents. Pay the pawn shop usually around $40-50 (which you can charge in your gunbroker ad, $25 to $50 is customary). Get a receipt from the pawnshop with the serial # of the gun on it and keep it forever with a copy of the FFL. You can legally mail the gun to the buyers FFL yourself but you have to ship through Fed Ex or UPS next day air. This will cost you as much as having the pawnshop mail the gun, they (the pawnshop) can ship the gun through USPS for far less.

[rollingrock]

23. Excellent

Appreciate the info.

[Tejas]

28. slight correction

"You can legally mail the gun to the buyers FFL yourself but you have to ship through Fed Ex or UPS next day air. This will cost you as much as having the pawnshop mail the gun, they (the pawnshop) can ship the gun through USPS for far less."


Depending on your particular state laws, a private individual can also send a longarm to an FFL through USPS. Handguns have to go overnight through FedEx etc.

ie: New York does not allow private citizens to ship firearms (even to an FFL), they HAVE to send it out through an FFL.

[pipoman]

30. Could be

I have only sold handguns. I would likely still take it to my pawnshop for shipping as it provides a better paper trail and I don't want or need a hassle in 10 years over a gun I sold...just me. The pawnshop I use also runs the gun (incoming or outgoing) through NCIC to be sure there isn't a 'want' on the gun. My state also allows for face to face sales but unless I know the person well or they have a CCW I would still transfer through the pawnshop just to be sure.

[jmg257]

34. Handguns vs long guns - different rules.

[jmg257]

33. You sure about NY? I haven't seen that. More info would be VERY helpfull!

[jody]

9. You do know that an "assault rifle" is tightly controlled by 26 USC Chapter 53? Selling one without

going through all the ATF hoops could land you in prison for a long time.

ON EDIT ADD LINK:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sup_01_26_10_E_20_53.html

[rollingrock]

11. Considering the used market for these weapons

it doesn't to be stopping a lot of people from selling them.
they shouldn't be legal in the first place IMO, except for military use.

[jody]

12. Do you know what an "assault rifle" is? n/t

[rollingrock]

14. A fully automatic weapon?

some might say the legal version isn't really an assault rifle because its semi-automatic, but even the semi-auto can kill a whole lot of people in a short amount of time. and it isn't too hard to convert them to full automatic from what I hear. they really have no legitimate reason to exist outside of law enforcement and military use. except maybe to a hunter who wants to take out a whole herd of deer at once lol.

[jody]

18. Yes, an "assault rifle" is capable of fully automatic fire and may be transferred legally only by

complying with the follow law.

26 USC 5812. Transfers says:

(a) Application
A firearm shall not be transferred unless
(1) the transferor of the firearm has filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, for the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee on the application form prescribed by the Secretary;
(2) any tax payable on the transfer is paid as evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form;
(3) the transferee is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph;
(4) the transferor of the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe;
(5) the firearm is identified in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; and
(6) the application form shows that the Secretary has approved the transfer and the registration of the firearm to the transferee. Applications shall be denied if the transfer, receipt, or possession of the firearm would place the transferee in violation of law.

(b) Transfer of possession
The transferee of a firearm shall not take possession of the firearm unless the Secretary has approved the transfer and registration of the firearm to the transferee as required by subsection (a) of this section.

In summary, no one who legally owns an "assault rifle" may transfer it without approval of ATF nor can a person take possession legally without approval of ATF.

[pipoman]

19. Well

it isn't too hard to convert them to full automatic from what I hear

From what you hear is so completely wrong it couldn't be more wrong. If these are so easily convertible why can you not find even one single example on the Google machine of anyone in the last 10 years using a converted gun to commit a crime? Hmmm, how could that be? "Easily convertible" is a wives tale.

[rollingrock]

22. Well maybe I have

I won't argue with you on that.

[benEzra]

20. You heard wrong...

some might say the legal version isn't really an assault rifle because its semi-automatic, but even the semi-auto can kill a whole lot of people in a short amount of time. and it isn't too hard to convert them to full automatic from what I hear.

You heard wrong. All guns easily convertible to automatic fire are considered to be machineguns under Federal law, even if not actually converted. All machineguns and guns easily converted are as tightly controlled in the USA as howitzers, tanks, and shoulder fired rocket launchers.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

The majority of guns sold each year in the USA are semiautomatic, and they all fire at the same rate---once and only once when the trigger is pulled.

they really have no legitimate reason to exist outside of law enforcement and military use

Ummm, you DO realize you're talking about the most popular civilian target rifles in the USA, yes? The #1 selling centerfire rifles in America? The most common defensive carbines in U.S. homes?

The military doesn't use civilian "assault weapons"; they use restricted NFA Title 2 machineguns. Civilians, on the other hand, more commonly own "assault weapons" than hunt.

except maybe to a hunter who wants to take out a whole herd of deer at once lol.

You mean like this one?



Browning BAR Mk II Safari Grade, .300 WSSM, a semiautomatic "assault weapon" per H.R.1022.

Or this one?



Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle in .223 Remington, not powerful enough for deer, but suitable for prairie dogs or coyotes, and banned by name by H.R.1022.

[rollingrock]

21. Don't you think a semi-auto AR15

has a much faster rate of fire than say, a semi-automatic .22 hunting rifle?

I don't know about the Brownings you have pictured. I'm just going by personal experience with my dad's .22 semi-automatic rifle which fires once every 2-3 seconds at most, compared to say a semi-auto M16 which fires as fast as you can pull the trigger. From what I understand 'semi-automatic' doesn't indicate the rate of fire, it just means you can fire without manually reloading or resetting the hammer between each shot.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. All semi-autos fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

I can effectively fire my ruger 10-22 faster than I can fire my AR-15.

David

[Caliman73]

43. Yep

I can fire my Ruger 10/22 as fast as my Kel Tec Su-16 or RAA Saiga. All semi-auto. All same rate of fire.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. A semi-auto AR-15 has the same fire rate as a .22 caliber semi-auto plinking rifle.

What .22 takes 2-3 seconds to chamber a new round? They fire the same.

My Marlin Papoose and Ruger 10/22 both fire at the same speed as my semi-auto AR-15 and Mini-14. The bolt on the .223 caliber rifles might cycle milliseconds faster, because it has a lot more energy to work with, but the difference would be negligable to the human eye.



Also, your friend can insist on selling throuh an FFL holder. He'll eat a small fee on the transfer, probably around 20-30$ but the FFL will do a NICS check on the buyer, and then your friend has a paper trail that he gave up the weapon, in case the weapon is someday used in a crime and traced to him.

If he opts not to use an FFL for the transfer, gently remind him that if he knowingly sells to anyone with a felony on their record, even a domestic dispute, he could be up shit creek. Better safe than sorry.

[benEzra]

31. No. EXACTLY the same as a Ruger 10/22, or a Smith & Wesson 6906,

or a Glock 17, or any other civilian semiauto. One shot per trigger pull, and it reloads the chamber immediately after each shot. Aimed fire for any civilian semiauto is limited by the rate at which you can recover from recoil and acquire the sights again, which for most people is one to three seconds depending on range and type of sights. But if you want to rapidly unload the gun at nothing in particular and don't care if you actually hit anything, you can pull the trigger as fast as you want, up to a point. At some point, you will start to outrun the trigger reset or the ability to move your finger, but you'll lose the ability to actually hit anything long before you run up against the mechanical limits of the firearm. And that is just as true of a straight-stocked .22 as it is of a Smith & Wesson, Glock, or AR-15.

I shoot competitively and recreationally with a civilian AK lookalike, BTW. It is identical in every way except looks to this short-range deer rifle:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5806&return=Y

Same caliber, same rate of fire, same accuracy, same range of magazine capacities, same kinetic energy, same legitimate uses. Same everything, except the AK is probably a little more durable, the handgrip angle is more comfortable, and (to my eye) the AK looks better. The magazines even attach the same way, and a novice would have difficulty telling the magazines apart.

[slackmaster]

37. No, I own both an AR-15 and a semiautomatic .22 hunting rifle

Their rate of fire is exactly the same, i.e. as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Pulling the trigger as fast as you can and hitting your target are mutually exclusive for all but the most skilled shooters.

[rollingrock]

39. I think that's the key

I can't imagine cycling the trigger on my dads semi-automatic .22 rifle any faster than once every two seconds at most. With the kick and noise that thing makes, I think it would dislocate a few bones in my hand if I ever tried to cycle the trigger too fast (continuously without pause).

[slackmaster]

41. The kick and noise on an AR-15 are significantly greater than that

Especially some of the "post-ban" designs, which means ones that were sold DURING the expired federal AW ban.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. It won't hurt you

to do so, but the .223 has significantly more energy than a .22 long rifle. For comparison:

.22 Long Rifle:
31gr (2.0 g) Copper-plated HP 1,430 ft/s (440 m/s) 141 ft·lbf (191 J)

.223 NATO
55gr (3.6 g) Nosler ballistic tip 3,240 ft/s (990 m/s) 1,282 ft·lbf (1,738 J)

For disambiguation, the first number, GR is the weight of the bullet in grains, the next bit is the type of round, irrelelvant to this discussion, ft/s is feet per second, or basic velocity, and ft/lbf is foot-pounds of force.

That's not a decimal place mistake. The .223 has twice the flat out velocity (and the .22 is already supersonic), and 9 times the foot/lbs of energy. (and it's still insufficient to hunt deer)

Are you sure you were firing a semi-auto .22? Not to insult, but it's a rifle many of us started with when children. What you are describing sounds much larger. Shoulder-punishing rounds are usually upwards of .308 NATO, .300 Win-Mag or .30-06.

[gorfle]

38. Absolutely not.

Don't you think a semi-auto AR15 has a much faster rate of fire than say, a semi-automatic .22 hunting rifle?

Absolutely not. Both firearms will fire just as fast as you can work your finger.

I'm sure there are mechanical limitations to a maximum rate of fire, but I'm also pretty sure your finger is much slower than those mechanical limitations.

So the effective rate of fire for any semi-automatic weapon is how fast you can work your finger.

And, if you know how to hold the weapon just right, allowing the recoil of the weapon to do the finger work for you, you can get fully-automatic rates of fire from semi-automatic weapons.

Google "bump firing".

[benEzra]

16. I've sold a so-called "assault weapon" on consignment at a pawn shop/gun shop...

and got what I wanted out of it. Pawning something will get you taken to the cleaners, but shops that do consignment sales are a lot better deal.

You can sell it to someone you know is on the up and up. Another option is to sell it to someone who has a carry license, which serves as a thorough background check.

If you have the minimum of computer skills necessary to sell collectibles on eBay, you can sell your used gun on Gunbroker or Guns America; if it is sold, you ship it to the buyer's local gun dealer, and the dealer conducts the mandatory Federal background check and BATFE tracing paperwork.

[rollingrock]

17. Sounds good

I will him know about that for sure.

[aikoaiko]

27. In GA, private sales have two rules.

You must have positive information that the buyer is a resident of GA and have no information that the buyer is prohibited person.

I've placed classified ads and sold my unwanted guns to people with a GA issued ID and whom I had no knowledge were prohibited from owning a fiream.

Someone else suggested gunbroker.com. That works well. Gun forum boards are other good places.

[jeepnstein]

32. I do it by word-of-mouth...

Maybe I'll put up an ad on the bulletin board at work. I've never sold a gun to a complete stranger. If I can't find a buyer after a few weeks I'll do a consignment or trade with my FFL. If I had an AK to sell, I'd probably just tell a couple of guys I know at the Sheriff's Dept. and it would be sold in a matter of hours. Whatever you do, do not run an ad in a publication because you'll attract scum bags like you've never imagined.

If you don't know anyone then you are better off doing a consignment through a reputable gun shop. Good luck finding one of those because for every honest shop there are at least a dozen run by dirt bags who'll rip you off any way possible. That's why I make it my policy to be as loyal to my FFL as I am to my tax guy or mechanic. When you have a good one they are worth a few extra dollars.

[aikoaiko]

35. You should list the firearms your friend has here.

:)

[slackmaster]

36. Depends on state law

...let's say he sells his AK47semi-auto to his brother or a son who is a bit of shady character or is less responsible than he is, or gives him the gun as a hand-me down birthday gift. other potential buyers might be his neighbors, friends, relatives, etc.

Being a bit of a shady character does not legally disqualify a person from owning a firearm. If your brother or son is a convicted felon or a member of another prohibited class, selling him a firearm would be illegal under federal law and (I presume) any state's law.

I guess, the original owner could try to sell it at a pawn shop but that's not really the best option for someone who wants to get a decent price for it, is it? so now you have a bunch of assault weapons circulating in the second hand market among unknown people without the benefit of background checks or records for the transaction, etc.

In California, private sale of a used firearm has to go through a federally licensed firearm dealer. There will be a background check on the buyer, and a 10-day wait. There are a few exceptions, such as for interfamilial transfers, and transfers of curio or relic long guns. However, any handgun (other than a muzzle loader or antique) must go through a dealer.

You do bring up an interesting point here. Because federal law prohibits the use of the background check system that dealers in most states use (NICS or National Instant Check System) by anyone who is not a licensed dealer, there is no practical way for non-licensees to check the background of a prospective buyer. I think that can and should be changed; of course with safeguards to prevent misuse of the system.

[Abq_Sarah]

40. I've sold weapons

Via private sales but I'm very careful who I sell to, they must be personally known to me and I keep a paper trail. Any sale is done with a receipt that lists the registration number and date of sale. I also have a third party witness and sign any transactions. These sales for the most part are done to people who've already jumped through the hoops and purchased firearms though licensed dealers.