Nothing will reduce gun ownership other than door to door search and seizure.

[C......N......C]

Reduce significantly. Why bother with gun legislation? All that gun legislation does is get Republicans back in power. There are a lot of things that really bother me but I know I can't do anything to change them, so I don't bother. Any gun laws will generate another round of NRA fund raising and get people in power that I really don't like.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. what are you saying?

I do not understand.

[C......N......C]

2. Just saying that anti gun laws won't reduce the

number of guns in the long run. New laws just start a new group of resistance. More republicans in power.

[hendo]

4. they will actually

if they make guns harder to obtain legally, that means that more people who rely upon legal means to obtain firearms will be unable to do so.

It's just too bad that gun laws have never worked on criminals.

[C......N......C]

6. In the short term. But then the backlash is more

republicans and more guns.

[hendo]

3. That more gun laws lead to more Republicans in power

I thought it was fairly straight forward.

[havocmom]

7. Yep, it was that clear. More gun laws = less progressive legislation

because of less progressives in office.

There are already laws against the things gun control proponents want to end, but the fact is, in real actual life some people will break laws. More laws doesn't change that reality. But more GUN Laws will create the reality of fewer progressives in any positions to make changes which will have impact on our society and beloved country.

Insisting on pushing more useless feel-good controls will only throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[hendo]

9. Undoubtedly so.

It's too bad that the anti-gun nuts don't realize that. Someone should walk up to them and say, "Dude, you're killing my party".

[rq4a]

35. Criminals not afraid of double secret probation

It never astounds me that the anti-gun response to fight crime is more gun laws. It is like 'double secret probation'. They way to fight crime is to go and get criminals. Yup, just start picking them up and send them away for a long time. No one is going to care, they are criminals. But wait. Never under estimate wackos to do crazy things like release violent criminals early, then blame guns when these criminals kill someone.

[Buck Laser]

5. I know bad sarcasm when I see it.

[jody]

8. OK but first let's ban free speech so we don't have to listen to rants from special groups. Forgot,

that would eliminate DU.

[hendo]

10. I was going to ask which usage of special you meant

but in the end, either is applicable ;)

edit: at least for some of the people here.

[county worker]

11. Here's how I see it.

Criminals will not obey gun laws.
Law abiding gun owners will obey the laws.
The more gun laws you make the more hurdles you place in the way of law abiding gun owners.
You place no hurdles in the way of criminals.
Gun laws are feel good laws, meaning, the authors of the laws feel good that they are doing something about gun violence.
They are not doing anything to prevent criminals committing gun violence.

In the case of a family member killing another family member with a gun, you can remove the gun but not the motive for the killing with gun laws. A knife works just as well, so does poison etc.

I am for sensible gun laws but the idea that you can make a society safe from gun violence with more and more laws is just mind fucking yourself.

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. Where do criminals get guns? nt

[county worker]

17. Other criminals

I think you may be implying that we can get rid of all guns and criminals will have no access to guns. Remember, we don't write guns laws for the rest of the world.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Most illegal guns are guns which have been stolen from legal gun owners.

Except, of course, those guns illegally sold by legitimate gun dealers.

ALL guns are legal to start with. Any gun you find on any criminal was originally a legal gun unless it is homemade.

[county worker]

23. If you have the right credentials you can buy a gun in the street in Los Angeles.

Others import them and sell them on the street.

[Caliman73]

29. Not legitimate

"Except, of course, those guns illegally sold by legitimate gun dealers."

If they sell guns illegally then they are not legitimate dealers. A criminal is a criminal when they choose to run afoul of the law for their own gain, regardless of how he may have started. You are right that all guns, except homemade, start legal. The problem is that people continue to equate the objects (guns) with the people's choices on how to use them. Just as Prohibition did little to curb drinking and the consequences of the behavior, limiting guns will do little to curb violence. To reduce violence you have to address the roots of violence not tools that can be used for violence.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Wouldn't selling guns to criminals make a dealer illegitimate?

[benEzra]

37. FOR NOW, and only because the legitimate gun market is legal.

Drive the existing noncriminal gun market underground via asinine restrictions on lawful gun commerce, and you'll start having ex-military weapons from Central America smuggled into the USA disguised as routine cocaine shipments.

[old mark]

55. Maybe we can buy some of those AK's back from Mexico!!! nt

[benEzra]

36. Where do criminals get drugs?

If pharmacies were outlawed, would criminals still be able to obtain narcotics or amphetamines?

A moderately sweeping gun ban would drive the legitimate gun market underground, move most gun commerce out of the tightly-regulated, paperworked, background-checked commerce stream into the freewheeling black market, and remove all incentive for gun owners to report gun trafficking. The net result would not be favorable to reducing criminal gun access. But long before that would happen, the party that tried it would be tossed out of power a la 1994, so it's a moot point.

[Pullo]

12. Not exactly....

....your correct saying new gun laws won't materially reduce the number of firearms out there. They will, however, keep firearms out of the hands of those inclined to obey the law.


and if the Feds did try going door to door in s&s operations confiscating guns, there would be a blood bath......and the future of our union would be in serious doubt.

[Daphne08]

13. Are you serious?

I've been a Democrat for 40 years and I would be appalled if anyone searched my home for anything!

Your suggestion would put Republicans back in power... forever.

[tularetom]

14. Do drug laws stop people from using drugs?

Of course they don't. And restrictive gun laws will not stop people from owning guns.

I agree. No more gun laws are needed. And some of the ones they already have need to be repealed because they are unenforceable. All they do is get a bunch of people's panties in a bunch out of fear that somebody is gonna "grab their guns".

The government can't even protect people from the effects of hurricanes. How the fuck does anyone think they'd be able to take away our guns.

[jeepnstein]

15. Here's how it would go.

The scene is in a police briefing room at shift change...

Captain: "Men, we're going to start going door to door to confiscate all guns today."
Patrolman1: "Huh, how's that?"
Captain: "It's a new law and you guys have to get out there and collect all the guns."
Patrolman2: "Sure, no problem. Captain, can you do me a favor?"
Captain: "Name it."
Patrolman2: "Can you do the first searches, so we can see how you want it done?"
Captain: "Uhh, no, I have to go to... uh... a Dentists' appointment."
Patrolman1: "Fine, we'll wait until you properly train us for this one. How about tomorrow?"
Captain: "Listen up guys, you have to do this. It's for the children."
Patrolman2: "My children won't have a father if I do it."
Captain: "Screw this. You guys are all running radar today."
Everyone in room: "Sure, right after we get some lunch..."
Fade to ten years in the future... The legal system looks exactly like Mexico with heavily armed drug gangs armed to the teeth and lawful citizens having to lie about that bundle of "curtain rods" in the closet. The police still haven't gotten around to doing the search...

Door to door confiscation is a Tin Foil Dream.

[rrneck]

25. LOL!

I've asked that question of a few people who suggested we just confiscate all the guns.

"Have you actually ever tried to take a gun away from somebody?"

It's not as easy as it sounds. And it doesn't sound easy.

[C......N......C]

19. I guess this was just a feel good rant.

And everybody has a right to feel and express their views.

[jody]

22. LOL, have you tried a fireplug? Works for my Brittany, n/t

[AndyTiedye]

20. Guns Don't Kill People

Bullets do. Tax the bullets.

[BigBluenoser]

24. Can I get a tax exemption...

For the hundreds of rounds a week I shoot through IPSC paper targets and clang off of steel plates? I mean, those bullets are 100% guaranteed to not to kill any people.

Why punish those of us who buy 100s of rounds per week (or reload rather). Do you really think criminals are running rounds through their guns in training? It just takes a handful of bullets to do a crime. People who buy a lot of ammo are not the problem.

[dashrif]

27. YEP

And I can't reload 17hmr for yotes and black tail dog season I will do 1k rounds for the dogs in a day so lets tax it so a box of 50 runs 17 bucks or more just like cigs marlboro are 5.75 a pack now boo I am with you big blue they can stick the bullet tax

Edit: for my non spelling ass

[rrneck]

26. Bullets don't kill people

Gunpower does. Tax the gunpowder.

[Iktomiwicasa]

28. My favorite powder, the REAL stuff :)

[rrneck]

32. My college buddy

and I once sat in his living room and shot paint balls at a suit of armor he made out of a couple of .50 cal black powder pistols. Uh, need I mention neither one of us is married?

[virginia mountainman]

30. Than we make our own....

I will gladly pass along the information needed to make ammo out of "off the shelf components"..

You want to know how????

I bet I could make lots of money doing that!! Heck I even still have relatives making moonshine.

Been a family tradition for hundreds of years...When the bans, and taxes got passed on it, the money started rolling in!!!!!

[rrneck]

31. If I could get my hands

on good White Mule I'd be a hopeless drunk!

I recall a story about how my dad and uncle tried to make gunpower when they were kids. They almost had it too, if they had just been able to give it the right consistancy as I recall. Something about making it burn faster...

Their test involved an Allis Chamlers "C" model tractor, some wire, a bit of pipe, and somebody standing on a #2 wash tub. They were lucky they lived to tell the tale.

:D

[virginia mountainman]

33. Their are other ways...

Here is the official military manual on "improvised" munitions..

Freely available on the interwebs...

http://rapidshare.com/files/36258818/TM31-210_Improvised_Munitions_Handbook.pdf

Banning ammunition, and weapons, is just like banning fire, by banning matches and lighters..

It will never happen because their are so many other, easy, and widely available ways to create fire.

Just like attempts to ban drugs, and alcohol... A ban that is doomed to fail from the start..

[rrneck]

38. Yep. And when it comes

to banning stuff, everyone becomes a teenager too. Tell 'em thay can't have it, and they'll go nuts trying to get it.

Thanks for the link! :thumbsup:

[Iktomiwicasa]

41. You can't

"un-invent" anything. If there's a demand, someone will fill it.

[Callisto32]

51. And carbon, and saltpeter, and sulphur too?

Frankly, there are enough people out there who would make their own. There are plenty of modern weapons and cartridges that function just fine loaded with black powder; considering black powder cartridges are considered still "modern" if a little archaic in the firearms world.

There is plenty of .45 colt brass, as well as .45-70, .45-90, .30-30 (originally intended to be a black powder cartridge, but then smokeless came around about the same time and the developers decided to use that instead) and many others. I suppose you will want to heavily tax metal lathes, lead in all forms, tin, antimony, silver, and blocks of aluminum, steel, and pretty much any other metal that has a higher melting point than aforementioned lead, tin, et al?

[Furyataurus]

21. Just tell the

anti's and gun grabbers to start their OWN party and leave dems out of it. Problem solved!

[spin]

39. Door to door search and seizure would probably get shot down...

by the Supreme Court.

Recently SCOTUS basically upheld the Second Amendment.

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. ___ (2008) is a landmark legal case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for private use. It was the first Supreme Court case in United States history to directly address whether the right to keep and bear arms is a right of individuals or a collective right that applies only to state-regulated militias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

An attempt to "reduce gun ownership" by door to door search and seizure would run afoul of both the Second and Fourth Amendments.

The Fourth Amendment reads:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

And it applies to the states as well as the federal government.

The Fourth Amendment only applies to governmental actors. It does not guarantee a right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures conducted by private citizens or organizations.<13> The Bill of Rights originally only restricted the power of the federal government. However, in Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U.S. 643

(1961), the Supreme Court ruled that the Fourth Amendment is applicable to state governments by way of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Moreover, all state constitutions contain an analogous provision.<14>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[rq4a]

46. WTF? Door to door? Heil Hitler. Zeig Heil.

I can't even believe anyone would even think like that. Door to door confiscation that is just plain Nazi thinking.

[TWiley]

40. Thats what the Military did in Iraq to make it safe ..... adding more guns made it more dangerous

[Tejas]

42. Link please ?

[TWiley]

44. Here is one for you

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25129&Itemid=128

[benEzra]

47. THAT is what you want for the United States?

Cordoning off neighborhoods with APC's and sending squads of soldiers around the neighborhood to search every home, without a warrant, and seize whatever contraband they find?

If so, I haven't heard any gun-control advocacy that extreme since Bob Greene advocated sending the military door-to-door nearly two decades ago.

BTW, if you think the U.S. military would carry out such orders in the USA against U.S. citizens, I think you're very wrong.

[TWiley]

48. Well, some neighborhoods may need it dont you think?

Evidently, your idea of giving everyone a gun has not worked out too well. Maybe it is time for something new. Besides, Tejas was asking for a link, so I gave him this one an example.

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. Trampling on the Constitution for 'safety reasons'. That'll go over a treat!

Just look how well that idea was received here at DU when Bush Jong Il did it.

Also, you have confused "Gun ownership within certain limits is a Constitutionally protected
right of all law-abiding Americans" with "Give everyone a gun".

Much like "You have the Constitutionally protected right to express yourself freely, (save for certain
things like libel, child pornography, etc.)", is not the same as "You are required to post ill thought out and fear mongering opinions on Internet forums."

See the difference?

[yagotme]

52. Door-door searches.

Like yours??? Maybe look for drugs/porn/whatever else they feel like looking for at the time while they're there. Save themselves a trip later.

[SteveM]

54. Who said "your idea of giving everyone a gun..."? --

I don't believe I have seen that "idea" on these pages. I have seen some gun-controllers push the notion that this is a policy of Second Amendment advocates, but there is no substantiation. In reality, there are possibly over 80,000,000 American citizens who own guns; hardly evidence of a policy of "giving everyone a gun."

Do you advocate gun confiscation? Do you want to be in on it?

[jeepnstein]

43. You're OK...

with getting the same treatment that the Iraqis got at the hands of our military? Not me, not by a long shot. I have plenty of friends who have or are serving in Iraq right now and it would be safe to say the YOU DO NOT want these guys knocking down your door. They're hard men doing an incredibly hard job. It's nothing short of a miracle that we haven't killed more Iraqis than we have. If you're OK with turning our country into an occupied zone then I wonder about you.

[spin]

50. The question is would these "hard men"...

break down doors in our country merely to take firearms from people who had no criminal record? Would they kill a citizen merely because he owned an "assault weapon" which is no more than a crippled assault rife? Would they risk their life to take weapons away from an honest citizen who believed in the Second Amendment and that it guaranteed his right to own weapons?

Would they support a government who ordered them to break into homes, terrorize the owners and take their means of self defense away.

Somehow I doubt that many would.

[jeepnstein]

56. The Original Poster is willing to have them do it.

If it's a lawful order, they'll do it and you know they will.

[solinvictus]

45. Do you know what happened in Japanese occupied Manchuria?

Of course, the Imperial Japanese banned the Chinese from having weapons. During the 1930's, China was in relatively close cooperation with Germany and German arms industries. Chaing Kai Shek had started Chinese arms factories licensed from Mauser. When Japan invaded and banned guns, Chinese citizens made Mauser rifles and pistols in improvised machine shops in back yards, caves, and even under the nose of Japanese officials. These hand-made weapons were fully functional. Get my drift? Anyone with basic machinist skills and a lathe can make a gun.

[Taitertots]

53. Who would do the raids?

The police and military have families in America. I really think getting them to raid their friends and families houses isn't going to happen.