Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup

[Cid_B]

An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.

The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.

The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.

A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire.

The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.


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http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/966133.html
_________________________

Nice, too bad the customer took some hits though. Hope he pulls through.

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. "Have it your way" didn't apply to this robber.

Ski masks look so silly in Florida, too.

[KittyWampus]

2. I have to be honest- why confront a criminal robbing a multi-national food chain?

putting yourself at such grave risk?

[Cid_B]

3. Ummm...

'Cause he had a gun and may have shot the clerk or anyone else?

Some folks run away from the sounds of gunfire and some run to it...

[depakid]

4. "Some folks run away from the sounds of gunfire and some run to it..".

Not sure you see the irony in that statement.

No, probably not.

[Cid_B]

5. By all means...

please explain it so that the uniformed masses can benefit from your wisdom. It is pretty cut and dry.

[rl6214]

40. My son is a midshipman at the Naval Academy

Last year he was at a local mall in Annapolis in the food court when he heard gun shots. 25 feet away a two gang bangers decided to get into a fight. When one pulled a gun, an off duty secret service agent that was there eating with his family drew his gun and shots were exchanged. My son moved TOWARDS the exchange of gunfire, pulling women and children to the ground and out of the way as he and his buddies moved towards the agent who was down with a gun shot to the hip/thigh area. He got to the agent and applied pressure to the wound as the gang bangers ran away, one of them injured from the return fire of the agent.

My son has his CCL in the state of Texas BUT is not allowed to carry in Maryland. He still moved TOWARDS the gunfire because as a midshipman, he is trained to take action, even if it means putting your own life in danger.

[MattBaggins]

6. Man your e-peen is showing

please put it back in your pants.

[Tim01]

25. Ok, since you put it that way.

If you are going to roll over on your back, spread your legs, and piss on yourself every time some dirtbag tries to hurt defenseless people right in front of you, then at least stay out of the way of people who don't put up with that shit.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. Why are you so infatuated with male genitalia?

[KittyWampus]

8. there was no sound of gunfire. Just a criminal hold up. I sincerely doubt the clerk

would feel compelled to give his life for a multi-national food chain's profits.

Now if the story read the criminal was ready to actually SHOOT the clerk, then I could understand.

[Cid_B]

11. It's just a saying...

Didn't mean it in a literal way. Easy to see how it could be confused though.

[Egalitariat]

13. Why does it matter that it was a multi-national food chain?

Most are locally owned franchises not much different than Mel's Diner.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. Better insurance - the company would lose NO money, unlike

a mom-n-pop place.

He hit the place at 4 in the afternoon - high volume time. He expected to grab the money and go. The number of witnesses argues against any intent to harm. It's not like at closing time, when there would be the opportunity to herd all the witnesses into the back room and shoot them one by one. The only thing at real risk was the money.

[RamboLiberal]

15. I'm a CCW holder and I agree with you

unless the SOB looked like he was going to shoot the clerk or the customers, no need for me to intervene. Let him take the damn money and I'll provide the police with whatever details I have witnessing the crime.

[Dave Mason]

33. CCW holder

10-4 Rambo, from a fellow CCW holder. However, we haven't heard enough information yet to make a call on this incident.

[tuckessee]

16. Whether the clerk felt compelled to give his life or not is irrelevant.

What matters is whether the crook felt compelled to take the clerk's life. Since he was holding strangers at gunpoint he was really the one in charge.

How does one determine whether a crook is "ready to actually shoot" someone?

Brandishing a firearm and pointing it directly at someone is generally an indication that the robber is ready to shoot & kill. The robber is unlikely to turn around and announce "OK folks, I'm going to pull the trigger and kill this person". All it takes is a twitch of the finger to discharge a firearm. A nervous crook might even do it by accident.

My general rule would be if the firearm is being brandished then assume the crook is immediately a lethal threat to all involved. If firearm is concealed (and announced by note or voice) or merely shown while still tucked in waistband/pocket then the threat level is not as great. But it only takes the blink of eye to draw, aim and discharge weapon so it's a fine line we're walking.

[RamboLiberal]

35. Most crooks during a robbery with a lot of witnesses are not

going to shoot. Actual incidences of robbers shooting someone in this type of robbery are quite low. You have to go with your gut and figure intent. But when the CCW holder pulls their firearm and shoots then all hell is likely to break loose.

None of us were there. The CCW holder may or may not have made the right call on this one.

I just figure I'm not a cop. I don't have LEO training. And though I've done plenty of range time shooting, even simulating self-defense situations, its not my duty to intervene unless innocents are going to be shot.

[DonP]

39. We solved that problem in Illinois

Last year we had a guy rob a Lane Bryant store and summarily execute 5 of the 6 women shopping there on a Saturday morning. He shot the 6th but somehow she survived a shot to the throat and head thank God.

No concealed carry allowed in Illinois, so thankfully (according to some real dummies around here!) there was no chance of things getting out of hand or innocent bystanders getting caught in the crossfire. Just 5 ruthless murders of women that were at the mercy of the criminal.

My hunch is he kept telling them he wasn't going to hurt anybody as he had them lie down on the floor in the back of the store. They have some of it on tape from a 911 call. You never know what a criminal is going to do or when.

The "cop rules" are if you have a weapon in your hand and don't drop it immediately you are a threat to life and will be shot. The weapon in hand alone is considered enough of a threat that it warrants deadly force.

Works for me.

[RamboLiberal]

41. Since I'm not in Illinois and I can legally carry in my state

If I was in that situation, I'm pulling out my handgun and taking my chances. Any time a robber takes people in to the back room good chance you are going to get shot. I've read a lot of scenarios of that happening.

Maybe its cause I studied martial arts and I choose to carry a handgun I also read crime scenarios in the news and in books/magazines to clue myself in to what may happen in different scenarios.

I will probably never be in those scenarios, but just in case.

[CreekDog]

21. a gun was being pointed at somebody

that is justification to shoot the guy, period.

i don't know if i would have myself --but i would have been justified in defending against the threat.

[TheWraith]

26. Nobody has to be willing to give up their life.

Shootings and deaths happen all the time in robberies where no one is resisting. Adrenaline can make a would-be robber panic, or even just squeeze the trigger a little too hard.

[Tim01]

27. Store video of a clerk who didn't resist robbers and was shot in the head.

Here you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Bif8JjX0o

[RamboLiberal]

36. Yeah it happens - but read the papers & watch news reports

Majority of retail robberies no one gets shot. If there are people on the scene with CCW's then they have to go with their gut feeling of the robbers intentions and their own chance of getting to their handgun in determining if they need to intervene. But trying to play hero needlessly can get yourself or other shot as well.

[Tim01]

37. It is your decision to act or not.

I will tell you I know somebody who has bee mugged a lot. He said the calm ones are dangerous. The loud ones are all bark and no bite. His friend was murdered and he was almost murdered by a pair of calm ones.

In that mall shooting out west a guy with a concealed weapon made his choice. He had the shot. But he put down his handgun, left cover and went out to talk to the young shooter. The shooter put a bullet through his spine. He is now paralyzed and the shooter killed more people.

The bad guy made the decision to walk into a restaurant and point a loaded gun at innocent people and rob them. Even if nothing goes wrong he has probably scared a lot of people to the point they will be afraid to go out in public.
If you choose to do nothing because he "looks" like he isn't going to shoot anybody, you run the risk of allowing an innocent person to be murdered when you could have stopped it. If you choose to act you could start a gunfight where there was no need for one.

It is a really bad situation and the bad guy chose to cause all of this because he feels he deserves the money in the register more than anybody else deserves anything.

Here is a video of the badguy getting shot down by a guy with a concealed handgun. There are lots of theses videos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrdbSJVSVM

[57_TomCat]

30. Pointing a pistol at someone and threatening to shoot them...

is often interpreted as "the criminal was ready to actually SHOOT the clerk." Whether or not the bad guy would have is open for conjecture BUT the threat is there and needed to be acted on. Opportunity, means and intent. These are required to justifiably use deadly force and they were there in plain view.

It is possible however that the altercation could have generated some or a lot of collateral damage. I was not there and can not comment on the actual situation from the citizens point of view but the reported information leads me to believe the clerk was in deadly danger.

[one-eyed fat man]

38. The gun is not.......

being pointed at some "multi-national food chain's profits"! The threat is damned personal; some poor minimum wage schmuck trying to earn an HONEST living is the target!

My son was a manager in a fast-food joint working his way through college. One Saturday night the place got robbed. He and his employees did as they had been told and trained, they cooperated, gave up all the cash in the till and one the dirt-bags, on the way out the door, turned around laughing, and emptied his pistol. All his bullets missed, but one.

As far as I am concerned, any armed robber deserves to be executed on the spot.

[-..__...]

17. What does the status or ownership of the establishment...

have to do the citizens intervention?

"Ohh... it's only Burger King. They can afford the loss and deserve it anyways because... (insert favorite anti-corporation/unhealthy food screed here --->).

No telling if this was the robbers first holdup. Who's to say what other business or individuals he had assaulted at gunpoint before... or had he survived, what other business or individual he might rob in the future.

Looks like that problem has been solved though thanks to the courage and willingness of one person to take a stand against this kind of shit... and he saved the taxpayers a boatload of money in court and incarceration expenditures in the process. :smoke:

[slackmaster]

19. The individual who was being threatened with violence was not wealthy

Just some poor schmuck doing a lousy job at low pay.

[ForrestGump]

7. Further evidence that

red meat is bad for you...

[L0oniX]

10. ...and 20% earth worms.

[Freddie Stubbs]

9. I've been to that Burger King many times

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. So this 'responsible' CC individual picks an argument with a guy

who has a gun, provoking a shootout in a crowded fast food restaurant, and gets himself shot for being a cowboy.

This is "nice"?

[slackmaster]

20. Would you have preferred to have him do nothing and take a chance that the robber might kill someone

Or more than one person?

These stories always bring out the Monday morning quarterbacks and wheelchair generals.

[spoony]

22. I'm fairly certain that entering a place and robbing it at gunpoint

could be reasonably construed as the first fight "picking" done in that confrontation.

[Dave Mason]

34. Were you there?

Raleigh:
You write as though you were standing there at the counter and saw this incident go down. You have no idea what actually took place, so I would suggest refraining from making such bold assertions without more complete information.

[WI_DEM]

14. I sure don't condone the citizen getting involved as he did, but the robber did the crime

and paid the consequence.

[slackmaster]

18. Tragic waste of a young man's life

He made some bad decisions.

[Cid_B]

24. And he paid for them...

even steven...

[yay]

28. Unfortunate yes

But I'm glad the other people are fine.

[jeepnstein]

29. That's an understatement.

[Indy Lurker]

31. There is only one reason to shoot the robber.

And that would be if there was reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.

The robbery is only incidental.

Had the robber walked in bare handed and announced this is a robbery, it would have been immoral, and possibly illegal (by Florida law) to shoot him.

The CCW owner did not even try shoot him the minute he saw the gun, he actually tried to argue with the robber. I think this shows the CCW wasn't out for blood.

It wasn't until the argument escalated that there was any gunfire, at which point, the CCW owner was obviously in fear of his life.

Could this have been handled better? Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but that doesn't make the guy wrong for trying to stop a crime.

Had the CCW simply positioned himself in the robber's blind spot and carefully taken a head shot, (which I believe is legal under Florida Law) would your reaction be any different?