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Jackson1999 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:27 PM
Original message
Majority of Americans don't fault US gun laws for Mexican violence


New Poll Finds Majority of American Voters Don’t Fault U.S. Gun Laws for Mexican Drug Violence
By Brad O'Leary, 3/30/2009 8:15:44 AM

Washington, D.C. — U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder has stated that the Obama administration would like to resurrect the Clinton ban on semi-automatic firearms, as well as other gun control laws.

<snip>

...according to a recent poll conducted by The O’Leary Report and Zogby International, a vast majority of the American voting public disagrees. The poll, which was conducted March 20-23 and has a margin of error of plus-or-minus 1.5 percentage points, asked 4,523 likely voters:

“Mexican officials, gun control groups and officials at the Department of Homeland Security claim drug cartels are crossing the U.S. border in order to obtain guns illicitly. Others say that the Mexican drug cartels are equipped with military hardware including grenades, anti-tank missiles and mortars – all weapons that are not available to the American public. Which of the following do you think is the main source for Mexican drug cartel arms?”

Sixty-five percent of voters say that the international black market is the main source for Mexican drug cartel arms, while only 13.5 percent think these arms are coming from U.S. gun stores (3.5 percent think the arms are coming from somewhere else and 18 percent are not sure). Among voters aged 18-29 years old, one of President Obama’s strongest groups of supporters, 73 percent say international black market, and just six percent say U.S. gun stores (two percent say somewhere else and 19 percent are not sure). A strong majority of self-described Independent voters (65 percent) also say that the international black market is main source of arms for Mexican drug cartels, and only 12 percent say U.S. gun stores (four percent say somewhere else and 19 percent are not sure).

Brad O’Leary is publisher of “The O’Leary Report,” a bestselling author, and is a former NBC Westwood One talk show host. His new book, “Shut Up, America! The End of Free Speech,” will be in bookstores April 14. To see more poll results, go to http://www.olearyreport.com


Full article

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?4167be41-f79e-4803-af58-e2a43e32900d
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Once in a while, a majority of people see through the bullshit and get something right
:toast:
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Ernesto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. look how we got into Iraq........
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. A majority plus one. nt
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Furyataurus Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. No kidding
which reminds me I need to pick up some RPG's for my nephews b-day party. Anyone have any extra grenades laying around????? The gun show was all sold out AGAIN!!!!!


:sarcasm:
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Did you check 7-11? I hear they had a two for one special on Grenades
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Furyataurus Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. No more 7-11's
where I live :cry:
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Local stores just stock sulfur and charcoal, you supply your own potassium nitrate. I've read that
some brands of beer are more effective than others.

:rofl:
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. 65% say international black market responsible. When will Obama find out? n/t
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. the way it's going, while watching the results of the mid-term elections n/t
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. The majority of guns taken from the drug cartels are American made

Regardless of whether they are being purchased from U.S. gun stores or from an international black market, the guns are clearly coming from the U.S.
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Jackson1999 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Not True
Tempest, there is ZERO proof of that. The 90% number only covers guns submitted by the Mexican Gov't to be traced.
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You want to take it up with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

American gun sellers supply the cartels with 95 to 100 percent of their guns, according to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/03/26/world/worldwatch/entry4893905.shtml


The number is coming from the amount of weapons being stopped from making into Mexico and from false flag buys from dealers by the BATFE.

Not to mention the number of cartel leaders who themselves tell agents how they're getting their weapons.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. The BATFE has never actually said that
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 05:53 PM by slackmaster
Having 90% of seized weapons be determined to be "of US origin" or "traceable to the United States" does NOT mean that they were bought from dealers on the civilian market and smuggled across the border.

Remember, the US government is one of the biggest weapons dealers in the world - for MILITARY weapons.

Much more information on this is available at http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner%7Ey2009m3d30-Do-90-of-Mexican-crime-guns-come-from-US - Take the source with a healthy grain of salt, but it does provide some valuable pieces of information that are verifiable.
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Jackson1999 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. BATF numbers
I couldn't find that quote you listed, but yes, I would like to take it up with them. There is NO WAY 95% of the guns are coming from the US. Maybe 95 percent of the ones they traced, sure. But not 95% of the weapons. I don't buy that the fully automatic AKs are coming from the US.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Nonsense...the cartel uses weapons that rock and roll, not the wimpy semi autos that we are allowed
Seriously, they are getting their weapons by diverting legal international purchases made by foreign governments and their own. They don't want what civilians have over here
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. There is simply no way this can be true.
While I have no doubt that many handguns and shotguns may make it to Mexico, the kind of hardware we are talking about with the drug cartels is military-grade. Machine guns.

Machine guns in the United States, such as an AK-47, cost around $20,000.

There is no way that Mexican drug cartels are buying $20K machine guns in the United States and smuggling them into Mexico when they can be bought abroad for less than $200.

Machine guns, mortars, RPGs, grenades, all of these things that we hear the cartels are using are simply not easily available in the United States through civilian channels and certainly not in any meaningful volume to support a drug war.

Further restrictions on the United States' civilian firearm distribution network will not be impacting these kinds of weapons the cartels are said to be using.

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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Sure, ATF also says a shoelace constitutes a machinegun n/t
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Bootlace Machinegun
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 08:52 AM by one-eyed fat man
Here is a copy of the ATF Letter where they reiterate their position that a shoelace tied with loops in the end is a machinegun.

Assault Shoelaces
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You do know that you and me are going to
get blamed when the drama queens here in the Gungeon start calling for a ban on shoe/boot laces.


:rofl:
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. wait until they find out about Thompsons..............
seems most folks don't know that General Thompson didn't have the money to build the gun which bears his name. An Irishman named Ryan with connections to a certain Boston bootlegger named Kennedy was the money behind the gun.

Thompson's son had married well and his father-in-law was the US Ambassador to England. He arranged for the younger Thompson to meet the British Minister for War.

To his great misfortune, the previous evening, a train full of British soldiers pulling into Amiens Street Station was ambushed by a group of IRA men using a new weapon. The 'Tommy gun' was being fired for the first time in action anywhere in the world and caused heavy casualties to the British soldiers packed in the train.

Marcellus Thompson was dismissed with a curt, "I see you've shown them to the Irish already," and a vow that England would never buy the gun. A situation which only changed when most of the guns that used to be in England were rusting on a beach in Dunkirk.

In fact, in June of 1921, another 500 Thompsons bound for the IRA were intercepted by US Customs as they were being loaded on a freighter in Hoboken. Ryan's ties to powerful Irish Democratic machine with it's IRA sympathizers ensured it all blew over quickly.
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SsevenN Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Wrong.
EXCLUSIVE: You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.

-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.

-- CBS newsman Bob Schieffer referred to it while interviewing President Obama.

-- California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said at a Senate hearing: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:

It's just not true.

In fact, it's not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

Video:Click here to watch more.

A Look at the Numbers

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

'These Don't Come From El Paso'

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

Boatloads of Weapons

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.

The exaggeration of United States "responsibility" for the lawlessness in Mexico extends even beyond the "90-percent" falsehood -- and some Second Amendment activists believe it's designed to promote more restrictive gun-control laws in the U.S.

In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.

"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"

But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.

"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/





It's all lies and political double speak.

But the truth shall set you free.
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yay Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I was going to post that in a thread.... NT
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Just so SsevenN and yay know, Fox is not considered a "proper" news source by many DUers
Even when they get the story right.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. How about the LA Times article from a week and a half back?
Look it up folks it's out there for those that want the truth.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I've read it, and cited it numerous times on DU and elsewhere
:hi:
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SsevenN Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Well do they trust the ATF?
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 05:19 PM by SsevenN
I don't, since they've been lying through their teeth to us since this fiasco started. At least SOMEBODY was able to pry some factual data out of 'em!




In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.


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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Sure, but they don't trust Fox to quote anyone accurately
I believe the story on Fox BTW.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Care to provide those serial numbers? Don't ask the ATF to cause they don't have em.
So where is your evidence other than the ATF says so. (yet provides no evidence)
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. Perhaps you should call Chavez and ask him where his AK-47s
from his factory are going.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. And most are not being sold at retail: they're military equipment sold to the Mexican govt.
Edited on Wed Apr-01-09 01:19 PM by TheWraith
The Mexican army had 17,000 desertions last year. They're trying to spread around the blame for the fact that they can't control their own weapons inventory. And even accounting for those, it's less than a quarter of all the guns they've siezed. Where are all the others coming from? Plenty of AK-47s in there... which aren't manufactured anywhere in the US.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. See "Legal U.S. Arms Exports May Be Source of Narco Syndicates' Rising Firepower"
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. Looks like that trial balloon just turned into lead...n/t
.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. Look south of the border -- south of the Mexican border...
I wrote last year that the war on guns would go international, especially with regard to the War on Drugs, Inc., in Mexico. Armed with the institutionalized confusion over what is a semi-auto carbine and a full-auto assault rifle, the media and gun-controllers have been conflating the weapons and saying they are coming over the U.S. border.

What makes more sense? Drug gangs paying five-figures each for a full-auto in the U.S., escaping detection with the purchase, then smuggling said weapon over a fairly heavily-patrolled border into Mexico, or drug gans paying a few hundred for a full auto in Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvadore, Colombia and elsewhere and using their own well-established smuggling routes?

How soon we forget the well-worn ruts of our own government's foreign policy, built around shipping millions of full-auto firearms to dictatorships and counter-insurgencies. There really was a "guns for hostages" deal back in the 80s, y'know.

BTW, I saw only one mention in MSM that some of the demand for small arms is coming from Mexican citizens, shop-owners and affected family members who seek to defend themselves in a country which prohibits firearms --except for LEOs and drug cartels.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. This LA Times article tells exactly where the guns come from...
Reporting from Zihuatanejo, Mexico, and Mexico City -- It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

**********snip*********

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story

So when your favorite friendly politician tries to tell you that the cartels are getting their weapons from gun stores and gun shows in the U.S. you can realize that they advocate the mushroom theory of politics.

Keep the electorate in the dark and feed them bullshit.
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