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SCOTUS says government is not responsible for protecting individuals and ACLU knows that. Why

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 08:37 PM
Original message
SCOTUS says government is not responsible for protecting individuals and ACLU knows that. Why
then does ACLU insist people be denied arms for self-protection that government is not obligated to provide?

ACLU said in their brief Amicus Curiae for TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO, Petitioner, v. JESSICA GONZALES, individually and as next best friend of her deceased minor children REBECCA GONZALES, KATHERYN GONZALES, AND LESLIE GONZALES
SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
The Court of Appeals correctly held that respondent Jessica Gonzales had stated a claim for relief by asserting that petitioner’s duty to enforce the restraining order against her estranged husband created a property interest under Colorado law, and that petitioner’s utter failure to enforce that order without meaningful consideration or explanation violated even the most minimal notions of procedural due process. Like the Tenth Circuit’s dissenting judges, petitioner primarily and persistently claims that this decision “circumvents,” “overrules,” and “undermines” this Court’s holding in DeShaney v. Winnebago Cty. Dep’t of Soc. Servs., 489 U.S. 189 (1989), which held that the substantive guarantees of the Due Process Clause do not generally require the government to protect an individual from third-party violence. See, e.g., Pet. Br. at i, 15, 20. Petitioner’s belief that DeShaney provides the appropriate reference point is misguided and flawed, for a number of reasons.

I.e. ACLU argued government is obligated to protect an individual.

SCOTUS then said in TOWN OF CASTLE ROCK, COLORADO v. GONZALES, individually and a next best friend of her deceased minor children, GONZALES et al.
Held: Respondent did not, for Due Process Clause purposes, have a property interest in police enforcement of the restraining order against her husband. Pp. 6—19.

Last year SCOTUS said in DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ET AL. v. HELLER
Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

ACLU said after SCOTUS ruled in D.C. v. Hellerin its position on the Second Amendment
ACLU POSITION
The Supreme Court has now ruled otherwise. In striking down Washington D.C.'s handgun ban by a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court's 2008 decision in D.C. v. Heller held for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms, whether or not associated with a state militia.

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

What part of SCOTUS saying GOVERNMENT IS NOT OBLIGATED TO PROTECT AN INDIVIDUAL is causing ACLU to deny citizens the natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self-defense?
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good questions all.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. That cuts right to the crux of the matter...
Edited on Wed Apr-01-09 09:24 PM by virginia mountainman
Great Post, full of fact, and sober reality...


That will fly right over the head of the "Anti's" that like to troll this fine forum.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. Prepare the flame retardant for when the anti-gun people see this thread NT
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Many people continue to believe...falsely
that the Police and government are obligated to intervene at the time a crime is happening. Part of the problem is that many police agencies have "To Protect and Serve" on their vehicles. The ACLU continues to see self defense as unnecessary because of the false belief that we have agencies to do that for us. It is ridiculous to believe that the police can be present to protect us from all danger at all times. It is even more ridiculous to believe that if law enforcement did what was necessary to keep us safe, that the ACLU would stand there and say that it is ok because it is their job to do so. They argue against "gang injunctions" (which I am also against) because they violate personal liberties, then they come out against personal use of firearms for protection against those same gang members who threaten and intimidate the communities in which they live. Can't figure that out, and I generally support the ACLU's actions.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Not to be a hard ass but
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 10:10 AM by Froward69
Jessica Gonzales, received a call from her ex-husband informing her he would be late returning the three daughters from a trip to the amusement park...

SHE then called the sheriffs Department there in Douglas county and Denver Police Department. To arrest her EX, for violating the restraining order... in turn he snapped as she had him arrested at the drop of a hat multiple times.

he shot the daughters to death (obviously to punish his ex) and then himself in front of the sheriffs Department.

I firmly believe that if Jessica Gonzales had not abused the Domestic Violence laws (to abuse her ex) her daughters would be alive today.

on edit/ to add she then sues the agencies involved arguing THEY were to blame. as they in fact were slow to react to her most recent complaint. that is her ex (who did have visitation and was within the law) needed to be arrested... for being late.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Am I reading this right?
You're saying it's Ms. Gonzales' fault that her husband shot and killed their three daughters? Really?
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. NO
I am pointing out that Ms. Gonzales abused the Domestic Violence laws. eventually causing the Police to react slowly. unbeknown to her ex the police were not acting as fast as they had in the past... he snapped. Then she places blame on the police and sues.

had she not had abused the system and not had her ex-husband arrested constantly (in this instance for being late) those kids would be alive.

My girlfriend is a DV counselor. she gets horrified at the lengths some women go to punish their exes.
this Gonzales case is a prime example.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Such bullshit.
"unbeknown to her ex the police were not acting as fast as they had in the past... he snapped."

Sooo, this makes no sense at all. This is some seriously tortured bullshit logic. He wasn't late in returning the kids, he took them without permission, outside visitation hours. He had a restraining order in effect at all times visitation was not allowed.

You know, ABDUCTED?

Where did you even get this idea she 'abused' DV protections?
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. 13 calls and arrests in 10 months?
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 06:51 PM by Froward69
nah that's not excessive... he had visitation... he needed no permission to take them to the amusement park during his time with the kids... unsupervised is unsupervised. (name the amusement park pal, I live here) she called the cops just after he called her to tell her he would be late. (and where from) she abused the law. the cops were slow to react, because she continually cried wolf.

she called him just after calling the cops... she wont elaborate on what she said in that call.
(most likely she taunted him)
it was then he did not bring the kids home. shot them early the next morning. then went to the sheriffs department and had a shootout with the sheriffs... HE WENT TO THE SHERIFFS OFFICE TO SHOOT IT OUT WITH THE COPS!!!

(boy that sounds like he was running with abducted kids):shrug:

BTW I live hare and have friends in the Douglas county sheriffs department... :wow:

so she sues the cops for damages blaming them. and LOST.:shrug:

point is 6 of 10 DV calls are women crying wolf. men do not use the law to exert power and control as women do.

Like My girlfriend says (the DV counselor?? one who teaches the mandatory classes) "The true victims are the reluctant ones.... the anxious ones are the ones who abuse the law to exert power and control over the men they feel they need to punish. mostly those stories do not add up. but the guys get punished anyway":wow:

:cry: I am sad those kids died. However I maintain they did not have to.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Perhaps you missed it, but HE TOOK THEM WHEN IT WAS NOT his time to have them.
He just stopped by and took them. She called immediately. This CBS article agrees with each finding of fact I saw in the main case.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/17/60minutes/main681416.shtml

He had no business taking them AT ALL that day. He wasn't 'late'. Cite your source that he was 'late' returning them.

Was she crying wolf when he broke into her house uninvited? How about the time he hung himself in her garage? Burden is on you to establish she EVER cried wolf EVEN ONCE now, pal. Use all the stupid smilies you want.

All evidence and commentary I have seen points to this woman having been terrorized, over and over by this guy, and that he was mentally unstable. Even prior to the restraining order. Domestic violence statistics are fun and all, and yes, sometimes abuse can happen, but in most states, abuse of the DV laws can backfire HARD.

So feel free to support your claims there.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. HERE, see the word ABDUCTED in the FINDINGS OF FACT from the court case?
http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2004/2004_04_278/
Does that help you?

He wasn't 'out late'. She didn't overreact. He snatched them out of the yard. They probably went willingly. 9-11 year old kids aren't terribly rational about possible danger from a parent, and can be manipulated. But unless the Supreme Court is completely stupid, as well as every news source that I found that dove into the details, he ABDUCTED the kids, and she called the cops the first time. The cops were LOOKING for him, but had not found him, when he called and told her about the park.

So, by all means, before you go blaming a victim again, have a look at the court docs or at LEAST the case summary, ok?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. That qualifies for the top gun-grabber beetle award.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Hahahaha wow
Blame the victim more why don't you.

So you are prepared to show that she had no grounds for calling the cops each time?
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. ...
just that if she had accepted that he took the kids to an amusement park... allowed him to bring them home without fear of arrest... those kids would still be alive.
He snapped, HE shot them... most likely seeing it as the only way out. it takes a complete breakdown and utter despair to shoot ones own kids.

She and the Kids are not the only victims here...
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Actually, you can't know that.
The only people involved we can be CERTAIN were victims, were the children and the mother. Sociopaths don't necessarily feel despair when they kill people. He may have had any number of mental maladies. He tried to hang himself in front of the kids prior to the restraining order. Dude could have been broken in any number of ways, but that doesn't necessarily make him a victim. Mom and kids? Clearly victims.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. ok so
to you desperation, depression and despondency are not factors in the case... he had a penis, so he was the total and complete instigator... her actions had nothing to do with influencing his mental state?

she did nothing wrong,

sure if you say so. Its always the males fault eh?

I own a bridge in NY, would you be interested in a lucrative purchase?

:sarcasm:
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Not factors.
Not unless you can prove some of your claims about her hounding him, or abusing the domestic violence laws. You claimed it, you prove it. None of the source material I've looked at yet supports it.

He MAY have been the victim of mental illness, but the mother and children were victims of a crime. Won't be judged by a jury post-mortem, but he seemed competent enough to know exactly what he was doing, so suicidal depression or not, in my opinion he committed a crime when he murdered those children.


It's not about 'having a penis'. It's about being the aggressor, in inflicting either emotional, or physical harm on others. I see no evidence the mother did anything wrong. Feel free to dig some up. Cite your sources.
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. I am not familiar with the case details at all.
Even so... regardless of whether Gonzales abused the DV laws or the husband violated the restraining order. The husband alone was responsible for the murders. The police are too often used as an intermediary where individuals cannot settle their differences. Legitimately, they should be called when threats of violence are issued or when a crime has occurred, is occurring, or has been threatened to occur. Police should respond as quickly as they can. If abuse of their system is occurring then the abuser should receive consequences as well.

My point is that the Police and government are NOT responsible for your safety. They are responsible for enforcement of the laws and as such are stretched out trying to be many places at once. Each person is primarily responsible for their own safety. I would hesitate to lay blame at ANYONE's feet except the idiot husband who decided to play god and take the lives of his children. If I leave my car unlocked and windows open, the thief who steals my radio is still the only person responsible for committing a crime. Sure, I should lock it, close the windows, and have an alarm system to minimize the chances. That is like having a firearm to defend my person or my family. All those things are tools which provide some security. The criminal however, is still responsible for committing any crime and should always be the focus of blame.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. exactly...
I agree with you 100%... It just resonates that if she had let him bring the kids home late, they would still be alive.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. You mean if she had not called the cops when he abducted them.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/17/60minutes/main681416.shtml

Or cite your source for him actually having legal permission to take custody of them that day.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R - cognitive dissonance
I'd love to hear ACLUs response to the question:

"Given that you've been unsuccessful in overturning the various courts' interpretation that the police have no responsibility to defend a person unless they're in custody, and the recent Heller decision clarifies a position that many have held since the English Bill of Rights was passed in 1689 and was codified clearly in various state constitutions that an individual has a right to defend themselves with a firearm, why do you not support the civil right of firearm ownership for defense of self?"
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. The right to bear arms is not inalienable
but carry on . . . .
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes it is.
And I will.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Prove it
Make an argument -- first about what an inalienable right is and then how guns fall under that. Just saying it doesn't make it so.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. You prove it. LOL
You made the claim so you prove it. See how easy that is? LOL
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. No, I didn't make the claim
The ridiculous claim was made by the OP. The right to bear arms is a legal right, given in a very confused way in the Utopian and muddled --and very outdated -- US Constitution. It is in no way an inalienable right. Anyone who makes that claim bears the burden of proof.

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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. No you made the ridiculous claim. You prove it. But you cannot. LOL
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. rights aren't "given"
they are recognized.

here's a hint. we are citizens, not subjects.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. It's enumerated, not given
You've got our Constitution confused with Cuba's.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Please read "The Preamble to The Bill of Rights".
"THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution."
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Pennsylvania was the first state to clearly define the right to defend self,
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 11:59 AM by jody
property, and state and said it was one of the “natural, inherent and inalienable rights” and it clarified that right by saying “That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state”.

A DECLARATION OF THE RIGHTS OF THE INHABITANTS OF THE COMMONWEALTH OR STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA 28 Sept. 1776
"That all men are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and inalienable rights, amongst which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."
And
"That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

PA ratified the BOR on 10 March 1790 and with contemporaneous knowledge of the Second Amendment, PA modified its constitution that took effect on 2 Sept. 1790 to say “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”

As an inalienable right it is impossible for PA citizens to give the right of self-defense away when they ratified our Constitution or when they ratified the BOR. PA citizens acknowledged that fact by retaining the right of self-defense in their constitution when they modified it just five months after they ratified the BOR.

It is clear that PA and later VT (1777) acknowledged that the right to keep and bear arms is one of the “natural, inherent and inalienable rights” regardless of the meandering and quibbling engaged in by philosophers.

FindLaw Legal Dictionary
Inalienable: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred
Example: inalienable right

Unalienable: not alienable: "inalienable"
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. This is incorrect -- no matter how they state it
Most courts really don't understand inalienable rights -- which was extremely evident during the recent hearing on Prop H8 in CA. The justices there were as confused as a sophomore philosophy student about the nature of rights.

And most of the claptrap spouted by the NRA types is just babble.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Please quote the passages of PA's constitution you claim are "incorrect". n/t
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Self defense is absolutely an inalienable right.
If you doubt it, kick a lion in the ass and see what he thinks.
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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. That is a very astute observation, but
why did you post it in the guns section? It seems like it would be a more appropriate topic for Civil Liberties?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Even though RKBA is a civil right, posts about guns are almost always banished to the Guns Forum.
That's DU's policy. :shrug:
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Xela Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
11. I can picture the ACLU covering their ears and yelling loudly.
But seriously, I agree with the ACLU on almost everything they undertake, except with this little conundrum about them not supporting the 2nd Amendment as a civil liberty.

Thanks for pointing this out jody.

Xela
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
36. Cherished ideologies die awfully hard...
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 07:45 PM by east texas lib
The ACLU evidently believes that "the people" cannot be trusted with privately owned firearms.
Thankfully (the) SCOTUS believed otherwise.
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