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Finally... a mainstream media source gettting Guns & Mexico CORRECT!

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sound byte Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:31 PM
Original message
Finally... a mainstream media source gettting Guns & Mexico CORRECT!
Yeah, I know it's FauxNews... but the truth is the truth.
Now if only other media vendors could reciprocate this information... :)


The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.

-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.

-- CBS newsman Bob Schieffer referred to it while interviewing President Obama.

-- California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said at a Senate hearing: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:

It's just not true.

In fact, it's not even close. By all accounts, it's probably around 17 percent.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

A Look at the Numbers

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

'These Don't Come From El Paso'

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

Boatloads of Weapons

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.

The exaggeration of United States "responsibility" for the lawlessness in Mexico extends even beyond the "90-percent" falsehood -- and some Second Amendment activists believe it's designed to promote more restrictive gun-control laws in the U.S.

In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.

"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"

But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.

"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hum? We must consider the source and dig deeper? nt
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sound byte Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. What's to dig deeper about?
It makes 100% sense... There is capital to buy more effective weapons internationally (cartel revenue in the BILLIONS), there is opportunity (cocaine + WEAPONS can easily flow from S.America), and there is motive (machine guns are more EFFECTIVE than american civilian legal weapons). Not to mention evidence such as RPGs, grenades, and light artillary have already been recovered - items that would not have come from the US civilian sector. All signs point to US weapons laws not significantly affecting the cartel source of arms/munitions.

It boils down to this one bit of factual info found in the article:
So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Even Tom Diaz (senior analyst @ Violence Policy Center) called the issue a "red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico."
Translated to commonspeak: "Please ignore whatever facts are out there and just let us railroad our errant agenda through the legislature."
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I think it's pretty obvious.
I think the situation is pretty obvious.

If you are a member or leader of a drug cartel, obviously law is completely meaningless. In a business where execution is the ultimate negotiation tactic, it's pretty clear that these guys will do anything. The drug trade is in the billions of dollars, if not more. So here we have extremely well funded, extremely well organized organizations that operate entirely outside the law virtually unchecked.

If you were in such an organization, where would you buy your armament? Would you buy it from Bob's Gun Shop in Texas, maybe a dozen at a time and paying upwards of $1000 a piece for semi-automatic rifles, or would you buy real military hardware by the cargo container from 3rd World and other countries with no control over their exports?

Anyone who thinks the drug cartels of Mexico have to resort to a straw buyer in the US to obtain a $1000 civilian semi-automatic assault rifle are fooling themselves.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Eric Holder on NPR
A report on NPR this morning had Eric Holder responding to a question about the Fox report saying,"It didn't matter what the real number was................"

That pretty much translates to he doesn't care to how much of the number you question as long as you believe the basic lie. It is particularly troubling when the staged photo op shows M16's diverted from the Mexican Army by deserters and AKM's that are Sandinista surplus and alluding to the public that they are really AR-15's smuggled in from El Paso.

It is tremendously obvious what is playing out here, and anyone with any training in SEER will recognize the employment of the classic "good cop, bad cop routine."

"Bad Cops" Eric Holder, Hillary Clinton, Diane Feinstein are beating the lax US gun laws let Mexican drug dealers buy machineguns from Guatemala drum.

"Good Cop" President Obama says, "I am not here to take your gun away" repudiating his lifetime voting record and every website he has stating "he supports reinstating the expired Federal assault weapons ban."

Understanding that the '94 ban was political suicide, the administration's goal is to put in place the perception that Mexican drug cartels are fighting their feuds with guns from the US civilian market. It is simply a matter of political calculus, they are hoping "to fool enough of the people, most of the time."
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tinkerbell41 Donating Member (722 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. Fourth to last Quote
I think it says it all.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Interesting...
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 07:47 PM by east texas lib
Of course, you will now be savaged by the usual suspects. Welcome to the Gungeon and DU!
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Come here to South Texas where you can learn the truth
and that truth is that it's more like 98% of the guns come from the US. There is some huge money being made right now on running guns to Mexico and there's plenty of people willing to run the risk to do it. Gun shops from Brownsville to McAllen are selling out of everything and it ain't because Obama got elected.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. If your assertions are true, then report it and I'm sure you will get a reward. n/t
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. i work in the industry
and thats not what i hear.

so i call your bluff

so can you explain how they are getting RPG's and auto weapons (which are essentially illegal or almost impossible to get) from these shops?
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. With your ass sitting up there in New York
according your profile, I don't think you have a clue what's going on down here on the border. I don't bluff.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. we are more inter-connected
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 10:36 PM by bossy22
then you think

i deal alot with texas, california, and florida

btw i dont think the cartels are buying up Ed Brown 1911's

and how do you get 98%? a sizable amount of weapons are automatic and explosive which are not available at most dealers....even in texas (most deals are not title II dealers)

this is not to say the cartels arent buying guns and munitions from border dealers....i believe that some of these weapons are making their way down south....but not 98%, in fact if you read the article even there own government states that the majority of the weapons are coming from non-us sources

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SsevenN Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. Gun shops are sold out everywhere
Your half assed attempt at anecdotal evidence doesn't prove a thing except your ignorance on the subject.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Gun shops all across the country
Are running out of stock and it's not going south into mexico. You CAN NOT buy fully automatic weapons at bob's gun shop. Those come from military sources. I live on the border in Texas. I know Border Patrol officers and they are being fired on by fully automatic weapons.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. On what basis do you extrapolate accelerated sales to the "98%" figure for illegal Mexican weapons?
I don't see anything verifiable in your statement.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. The only verifiable data
is what the Mexican army confiscates, what's going on in border gun shops and the talk on the street in the neighborhoods.
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dairydog91 Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Which is rather limited...
Edited on Fri Apr-03-09 11:06 AM by dairydog91
What the Mexican Army is confiscating appears, at least according to this new data, to be mostly stuff that isn't from the US civilian market.

"Talk on the streets" or "what's going on in border gun shops" isn't really of value for determining the nature of such a huge market. With the size of the cartels, even their purchasing 17% of their guns from the US would cause a steep rise in the number of purchases.

Plus "talk on the streets" is inherently rather limited in value. Up where I live (Western CT) word on "the street" is that Obama is going to send out the black helicopters pretty soon. Apparently, the Blue-Helmet Fascist Pigs are only a few weeks away from launching the New World Order.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. Wow!!! smugglers in Iowa and Illinois too I guess!
"Gun shops from Brownsville to McAllen are selling out of everything"

Most of the local shops here in Illinois are out of AR pattern rifles and 5.56 ammunition too and my BIL in Cedar Falls Iowa says his local store sells them out as soon as a new Bushmaster or DPMS shipment comes in.

I guess it must all be smugglers then. I know they like to pay $600+ for a single semi auto rifle that would need a machine shop and skilled machinist to convert to full auto when they can buy a full auto AK pattern rifle for less than $150 in at least eight countries I can think of offhand, 3 of them in South and Central America.

It couldn't possibly be average citizens that believe what the President said about reinstating and making the AWB permanent, could it? And Holder and HRC saying the same thing twice in a week probably has no impact on anyone considering buying a gun.

Nah, must all be drug smugglers because Eric Holder said so and HRC did too and she knows all about guns. After all she had to dodge sniper bullets in Kososvo.

(Did I leave the sarcasm tag off?)
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. "...one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open"
"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."

17% is 17%. It's not 90%, but it's still not good.

This "article" is full of contradictions and I am not sure what point it is trying to make beyond "the 90% number is a red herring".

I for one am not comfortable with a country on the US border that has automatic weapons and various flavors of grenades streaming across it's borders.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. let's make this really simple.................
You say, "I for one am not comfortable with a country on the US border that has automatic weapons and various flavors of grenades streaming across it's borders."

RPG's and machineguns are not entering Mexico across the US border.

You could build a wall 200 feet high and 100 feet thick from Tijuana to Matamoros and it wont' stop a single grenade from Guatemala.

With thousands of miles (9330 kilometers) of coastline, Mexico offers everything one could want in the way of ocean-living, relaxing, exploring......................or landing boats full of contraband.

Any handgun bigger than .38, any rifle over .30 caliber and anything that shoots a "military" caliber is ALREADY illegal in Mexico. The "red herring" is the notion that guns diverted from the US civilian market make up any meaningful portion of the drug cartels' firepower!
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Erm, not our border. Other border with Mexico. As well as ports.
I hope that is clear.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. There aren't any grenades or automatic weapons flowing from this country to Mexico
They're not available in sporting goods stores, and are heavily regulated.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Let me make this clear. Mexico has other borders besides ours.
That is what I was referring to.

But thanks for reminding me that I can't walk into my local gun shop and buy an rpg. I really hadn't noticed.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. I keep posting this LA Times report...
Reporting from Zihuatanejo, Mexico, and Mexico City -- It was a brazen assault, not just because it targeted the city's police station, but for the choice of weapon: grenades.

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story

Why are we being mislead by our government and the Mexican government?

Perhaps both our government and Mexico would prefer to see us disarmed or at least not have semi-automatic weapons. Our government has always had politicians of both parties who advocate draconian gun laws. Mexico already has draconian gun laws and quite possibly many of the firearms that do travel from the states to Mexico end up in the hands of the citizens who are NOT cartel members, but merely want to have some means of protection in a society on the brink of collapse.

The Mexican government is largely corrupt. Perhaps the cartels would like to further extend their influence into the states and feel disarmed Americans would be a better target.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. i believe it is something less sinister
i think the whole thing can be summed up into this

"why waste a good scapegoat"

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Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. I hear the cartels get their submarines from US boat dealers .....
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 09:47 PM by Pullo

"A well-regulated flotilla, necessary for the security of a wake-free zone, ....."

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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
17. Fox News?
I never trust stories that only come out of a single source anymore. Journalism is dead. It's now more fashionable to be an advocate for a point-of-view. Real reporting is expensive and hard work. It's easier to just regurgitate whatever your preferred "source" wishes to spread.

I want to see data, evidence, not wild guesses based on numbers pulled out of a hat like a magician's bunny.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Agreed!
And not just 10 different blogs pointing to the same single source. (that's my recent pet peeve- regurgitation of a single source as though it's 'reliable news'.)
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I agree that the media is an advocate for a point-of-view...
and that in order to save money the reporters merely sit in front of government offices waiting fr their daily ration of propaganda.

Which is why the story of Mexican Cartels getting their weapons from the states stinks like two week old fish. Fully automatic weapons are readily available on the world market and the cartels have plenty of funds to purchase them. Note that the cartels also use hand grenades, grenade launchers and antitank rockets.

You just don't find fully automatic weapons and grenade launches in pawn shops or gun shows in border states.

Any news media outlet or for that matter any junior reporter should immediately know that there are some major problems with the story presented by the government. It's like hearing that a Volkswagen Beetle was clocked at 300 mph in downtown New York City.

If you believe that the Mexicans get 90% of the weapons that they use in their drug wars from the states, I have some really nice property in Florida for you to invest in.

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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Nice fishing hole!
I had a buddy who had a chance to buy a hundred acres of swamp land in Florida once. It's now called some uppity name like "The Plantation on Amelia Island". Who knew?

I was taught at an early stage in my collegiate experience to never, ever, trust a single source on anything. The internet has made us lazy.
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FudaFuda Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Actually, it looks like some real journalism for once
Edited on Fri Apr-03-09 10:00 AM by FudaFuda
And I mean that in the traditional concept of the 'beat reporter' breaking a story. - Reporter interviews government agents of the ATF and ICE, finds discrepancy in their official statements vs. how the story has been popularly presented in recent media stories, and writes an article about it. That's 'good journalism' even if you don't like the source. Unless you think the author of the story has purposely misquoted the ATF and ICE agents on their clarifications of the whole '90%' baloney story, where do you get a basis for claiming its all 'wild guesses based on numbers pulled out of a hat?'

i probably don't rely on Fox as a news source anymore than you do - which is to say i take pretty much all mainstream news with a grain of salt. but for this story in particular, i see no reason (without more info) to discard the report as false, since it makes more sense than the 'popular' story the gun-control lobby has been pushing. 2,000 american guns being seized a day?!? What horseshit.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Agreed...looks like some real journalism for a change...
It would be nice if it hadn't been Fox but CNN and MSNBC are cutting corners and real journalism is expensive. It's much cheaper to just pass on the daily government info and not question the source or the facts.
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