Scary story on NPR just now...

[luvspeas]

This gun shop owner called today a regular post-Obama day. Meaning guns sales were up 15-30 percent. Personally, I will never own a gun for 2 reasons 1) I do not wish to live in constant state of fear which is what I think all those cowards with guns do. I'd rather be truly brave and live my life by example and deeds, not hiding behind the barrel of a gun. and 2) If I had one, my PMS might get a hold of me one day and who knows what might happen.

[benddem]

1. ditto

[doctor jazz]

2. Actually, many of us who have guns do not live in fear precisely because we DO have them.

I realize that's a difficult concept for some people.

[luvspeas]

4. YOu do whatever makes you feel you need to do...

personally, I'll take Gandhi over Rambo any day of the week.

[doctor jazz]

10. Ah, yes. The moral superiority of a dead victim over that of a live person holding a

smoking gun over the body of a rapist. I like the way you think. Wait, no...I don't.

[luvspeas]

16. Buddy, you and your gun are screwed if two or three people have guns...

that's all it takes. that's the way warfare works. it's always about never ending escalation.

[doctor jazz]

29. I'm just not inclined to bend over and let the thugs have their way with me.

Your approach may vary.

[Tim01]

38. And you are screwed if just one guy is bigger than you.

A woman is raped every 2 minutes in the us.

[luvspeas]

41. this adds nothing to this conversation and it feels threatening...

are you implying that I should be raped because I don't have a gun? ans wtf do you know about me and what I am capable of? It's interesting to me that people who vehemently defend guns usually revert to bullying and threats of violence when confronted just a little by someone with another opinion. fear-based. sorry.

[Tim01]

42. I apologize. Not my intent at all.

Women are likely to be victims in the United States. A woman with a gun is much more likely to save herself than one who is not armed.

[doctor jazz]

51. And she's getting damn sick and tired of it

oh shit, that bad joke will get me in big trouble, yikes
:scared:

[Myrina]

23. You get a gun, I get a machine gun ...

.... you get a machine gun, I get a rocket launcher ....
.... you get a rocket launcher, I build a dirty bomb ....

where does it end?
:shrug:

there's always a more powerful weapon out there. always.

[doctor jazz]

30. No, that's not how it works. The thug comes at me, I kill him. He's out of the cycle.

See?

[luvspeas]

35. then his buddy kills you...

great!

[doctor jazz]

50. Naw, I killed his buddy too. I guess you've lived a sheltered life.

Hopefully you can keep that status quo.

[dairydog91]

116. Has the entire USMC gone criminal?

Since when have street criminals been famous for bravery in the line of fire?

[guardian]

134. This is a ridiculous argument

Do you really think people that own handguns or a shotgun also own a "rocket launcher" or a "dirty bomb"?

Unless you actually think this is a real problem then you are trying to support an unfounded argument with delusional fantasies.

[TWiley]

128. hmm ... Never any room for the legal system is there?

That is a major flaw in the gunsters theory .... all those vigilantes out there killing people. Think of all the tax dollars we could save if we eliminated the judicial system and empowerd citizens to kill those they suspected of crimes.

Oh wait .... the KKK already does that !

[yay]

141. You love strawmen don't you?

HA bad pun... sorry

Always room for the legal system, you seem to forget the NRA supported the bill that introduced the NCIS background check. Every gun magazine that has an article tells you to call the police in a self defense situation, and how t handle it.

Theres always room for the legal system. It's just that the police aren't fast enough and are too few in number to protect everyone. This it not a hard concept for someone to grasp.

[rl6214]

69. Ghandi will not save you or your loved ones

When you are car jacked, or someone bursts into your house or you come home, walk into your dark house and there is an intruder already there or you are having a quiet relaxing lunch when loud voices and gunfire erupt.

[doctor jazz]

73. Plus, Gandhi, like Jebus, is dead.

as in no longer alive.

[luvspeas]

109. fear based

good god is this what you all spend your time fantasizing about? No wonder you have guns!

[dairydog91]

111. The ol' Gandhi references...

Protesting imperialism, particularly that of a country that isn't thoroughly repellent, is rather different from dealing with a criminal attack. Nonviolent protest, such as that practiced by Gandhi or King, worked at the practical level because other people were watching and become horrified at what they saw. That's not usually the situation in a criminal attack (But if you're attacked in a public place, nonviolence could work). If someone is coming at you, and nobody is around to help you, then nonviolent protest is less powerful. You're placing all your hopes on the decency of the assailant (Considering the high proportion of violent criminals with ASPD, this seems like a rather dicey proposition). Now, you may choose passivity if you wish to do so, but I wouldn't compare such behavior to what was practiced by Gandhi.

[jeepnstein]

3. "live in a constant state of fear"?

What on Earth are you talking about?

[luvspeas]

6. why else does a person own a gun?

Don't give me that hunting bullshit. That's fear based too.

[jeepnstein]

9. I don't hunt.

Nor do I live in fear. You simply don't know a thing about the subject yet profess to be an authority.

[luvspeas]

21. do I have to own a gun to have an opinion about them???

what do you mean I know nothing about it?

[doctor jazz]

31. How do you feel about celibate priests dispensing advice on sex and marriage?

It's just a question, you can avoid it if you wish.

[luvspeas]

36. if only they did!

I don't have kids either. Do you think I shouldn't have an opinion on pedophiles? Cuz they are another reason I don't have a gun.

[doctor jazz]

47. Sorry, I don't 'get' your response. Are you implying that celibate priests do NOT

dispense advice (often bordering on mandates) about matters of sex and marriage? Pedophiles have nothing in common with gun owners except for when they rarely happen to be both. Do you also equate homosexuals with pedophiles?
These aren't flippant questions, they're asked because you've exhibited some somewhat odd opinions.

[hlthe2b]

44. When I was a teenager, playing hooky from school....

a man came through the garage and was breaking into the downstairs back sliding glass door. I had time to do one thing only--go for my Dad's handgun in their bedroom or the phone to call 911 who would never have gotten there in time. I went for my Dad's handgun. I had no doubt then and even less doubt now that I would have used it. I was poised to fire as he came up the steps. Fortunately the fairly loud arrival home of my neighbor, whose back door looked directly into ours, freaked the guy out and he ran.

So, at 17 years of age, I might well have killed a man. Even if justified, I don't know how I would have gone through life living with that. I never want to find out and to me, having a gun means it is infinitely likely that it would be used without consideration for other options.

It is a personal thing and I don't judge others for choosing the gun route. But, it is not the case that those who do not choose to own a gun are naive' nor able to voice a valid and knowledgable opinion on the issue as you infer.

[doctor jazz]

49. There's no guarantee that killing someone for whatever reason will cause someone a lifetime of

regret or anguish - soldiers (and of course more recently in human history bomber pilots) have dealt with it reasonably well for a very long time.

[hlthe2b]

52. I think most people know how they would react to the act...

On some level, we know more about ourselves than anyone else can.

[doctor jazz]

54. I submit that nobody could POSSIBLY know that until after the fact.

Except maybe those with Magic Eight Balls.

[hlthe2b]

63. Don't be rude or condescending...

Of course none of us know for sure, but I think most people know how deeply they feel about killing others, animals and human. This self-knowledge is the basis for conscientious objection throughout our many wars, after all.

[doctor jazz]

71. Look, I did NOT mean to be rude or condescending. I am telling you my opinion

and that is that probably not one person in a thousand can tell us before the fact how they would feel about the act of killing a person...mostly because there are a million variables involved! I'm betting most people (I guess I have to say men here to make the point) would say they'd shoot to kill someone who was trying to rape their mother, wife or daughter. I don't question that, but to extrapolate their feelings about it afterward is an exercise in futility...nobody can say. Not honestly, anyway.

As to killing animals, we read posts here regularly saying "I could/would never kill an animal" right before they haul the family down to McDonalds for burgers. Oh, but -they- didn't kill the cow, someone else did. Then we have the different animals to consider...nobody would kill a doggie, right?...but they (we, you and I) sometimes to precisely that: we call it "putting them to sleep" and "stopping their suffering". So all that stuff is relative and conditional. It's impossible to have an honest aversion to killing of any kind and still function as a person...just as there's no such thing as an altruistic act. Anyone who says otherwise is a hypocrite and a liar. No offense intended, just sayin'...

[hlthe2b]

129. Your examples describe people's ability to enter into denial

whether or not it is conscience (or lack, thereof) or religious or societal imprinting, most people have a general feel for the strength of their beliefs and moral principles, their reaction when they violate those beliefs and principles. Most people have no problem ignoring the suffering of animals killed for their dinner, nor people killed every day on the streets, in our wars, or as civilians inadvertently killed by our wars. Out of sight, out of mind. But one can hardly construe that ability to deny those very indirect associations with the response to a death at ones own hands. And, I SUBMIT that most people have a general feeling for how they would react to such an event if they have engaged in any self-examination whatsoever. That is what motivates most people to slow down when they find themselves driving wrecklessly, to shut up when they find they are inciting another (in a bar, for example) to extreme anger, or to make a decision about owning a gun.

Of course some have never really entered into self-examination at all. For them, I'd guess there would be no real issue.

Others have resolved that death of another--even an innocent bystander-- is an acceptable outcome --fully justifiable and a circumstance they can accept-- in order to be able to protect themselves and others using a gun. I'm not saying they are wrong. Just that that is not a conclusion I've been able to accept for myself. And, that does not mean I am incapable of killing by other means if it was necessary for self-defense or to protect others. I just wouldn't be so likely to do so as my initial response.

[luvspeas]

110. ever hear of PTSD?????

nuff said

[doctor jazz]

11. Hunting is fear based? You know, you probably shouldn't smoke that shit.

:eyes:

[Cassandra]

14. Sometimes hunting is lunch based.

Not defending hysterical gun purchases and I don't own a gun but I have no problem with people hunting animals (in a sporting way) for food.

[lynne]

18. LOL! The five squirrels in my freezer agree with you!

I know I'll never have a problem putting food on my table and that's a comfort in this day and age.

[jmg257]

105. Ha - nice!

[Reform]

17. Having a gun for hunting is fear based?

I really don't understand what you mean by that one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. I can go along with the hunting

It's the concealed carry folks who are afraid, IMO.

[doctor jazz]

32. That's almost funny. They're the ones who are NOT afraid!

It amazes me that some people can't grasp that simple concept.
:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Of course they are afraid

That's why they CCW.

[rl6214]

74. I walk around confidently

because I know I can take care of myself and my loved ones because I do darry a gun, every day, every where I go that it's legal.

[jmg257]

104. Why not? They are a blast to shoot. (blast - get it?)

[AtheistCrusader]

122. Fear of... starvation? Ok, I'll give yout that one.

So, seriously, the only thing stopping you from going on a murderous rampage, is the fact you don't keep any guns lying around? That's pretty much the takeaway I got from your original post.

If you're so irresponsible you might try to harm people, I guess I'm glad you don't own any.

[DrCory]

127. Hunting is "fear based"?

Explain that one if you would.

[yay]

138. They're fun to shoot?

I can't expect one to understand without first hand experience. Then again not everyone who has shot likes it.

I shoot competitively for the same reason I play paintball, adrenaline. I don't hunt, nor do I ever plan on hunting(can't fathom killing/maiming something) and defense is only a pleasant side effect.

Why else? Well that really depends on the person.

[baldguy]

27. Buying a gun for the supposed purpose of self-defense is an act of fear.

[rl6214]

77. No it's not

It's being prepared.

[jmg257]

106. Ya, and? BTW, what is wanting to ban guns an act of? Fear. (it was a trick question)

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I agree

My weapon is my brain.

[doctor jazz]

13. never mind

:D

[aikoaiko]

7. You're probably right that you shouldn't own a gun.

;)

But I don't hide behind one and I don't PMS, so I'm good.

[slackmaster]

8. I keep mine locked up in a safe

No fear.

[luvspeas]

12. here's the transcript...

All Things Considered, April 7, 2009 · An ammunition shortage in the U.S. is affecting police and sheriffs' departments all over the country, as well as gun dealers, from big retailers like Wal-Mart to smaller family-run businesses and online operations.

Ammunition suppliers say the shortage is due to several factors, including the sheer volume of ammunition heading overseas to fight wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But they also say the shortage — as well as a sharp rise in gun sales — coincided with the election of President Obama, fueled by fears his administration would usher in more restrictive gun laws.

"It started the day that Obama got elected," Johnny Dury, who owns Dury's Gun Shop in San Antonio, tells NPR's Michele Norris. "It is when everything just went crazy in the gun business."

Dury says people are buying guns as well as ammunition, creating a shortage of both. He says people are buying the guns to protect themselves because they perceive Obama's policies as socialist and rewarding those "people who are not working hard." They are also afraid, he says, of more restrictive gun laws.

"Everybody was scared he was going to take the ammo away or he was going to tax it out of sight on the prices," Dury says. "So people started stocking up, buying half a lifetime to a lifetime supply of ammo all at one time."

He calls business on Tuesday "an average post-Obama day."

"This time of year with Obama stuff still going, we're probably 15 percent over what a normal April day would be," Dury says.

[Xela]

15. Fear? Nah.

How 'bout readiness? Or how about, be prepared?

For me it goes back to when I was a boy scout.

But Coopers perspective is a plus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(Marine)#Combat_Mindset_-_The_Cooper_Color_Code

And that commentary about PMS is rather degrading women isn't? I'll check with my wife just in case.

Xela

[luvspeas]

19. I speak only of my own PMS...

Not anybody else's. I don't like guns, and I do believe there is a basic insecurity that compels people to own them. We can argue that if you like. that said, I don't have a big problem with people owning guns if they want to. I would not take them away unless someone becomes an idiot with them.

[mcranor]

28. "There is a basic insecurity that compels people to own them."

That's correct, I believe. And it sure pisses gun people off when you say it, so I'd say it's true enough to be discomforting.

I find these fantasies of 'standing over a dead rapist with a smoldering barrel' rather nauseating. Everybody knows that a gun in the house is far more likely to accidentally kill or maim an innocent than to successfully repel an attacker. The numbers are appalling.

This is not to say that owning a gun 'for protection' is never appropriate; only that pretending insecurity has nothing to do with it is rather dishonest.

[doctor jazz]

55. No, pretending security and depending on police is what is dishonest.

You may have bought the 'protect and serve' bullshit they paint on their cars but reality and the Supreme Court have proven over and over it's an illusion.

[DonP]

92. No, it doesn't really piss us off

We just think its incredibly stupid and utterly illogical.

Like believing the Kellerman study you quoted about guns more likely to kill family members, that has been debunked and refuted by peer group review at least four times since he published it. (A little hint, Kellerman did his study in a high crime neighborhood with a lot of crack dealers back in the 80's as his test group. Yeah, that's typical America for you.)

I'd bet most of us gun owners barely give a shit what people that have no knowledge of the subject (and damn proud of their ignorance) and an opinion founded on half truths and emotional rhetoric think.

Just leave us the fuck alone, because what we own and what we do, as long as its within the bounds of the current gun laws (which you know pitifully little or nothing about), is none of you and your gun grabbing friends business. We're though "compromising" until the other side lets us know what they are willing to give up.

But feel free to walk the streets counting on dialing 911 for your life and safety.

[luvspeas]

112. for the umteenth time.....

I DO NOT NEED TO OWN A GUN TO HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT GUN OWNERSHIP!!!!!!!!!

it's not ignorance, it's my opinion and it's just as measured as yours.

[rl6214]

96. This is just bullshit

"Everybody knows that a gun in the house is far more likely to accidentally kill or maim an innocent than to successfully repel an attacker. The numbers are appalling.'

Show the numbers.

[pipoman]

99. How about a link to those numbers?

Everybody knows that a gun in the house is far more likely to accidentally kill or maim an innocent than to successfully repel an attacker. The numbers are appalling.

And a link to VPC or Brady will result in a counter link to the NRA, as they are equally credible.

[benEzra]

100. Not even Kellerman himself claimed that.

Everybody knows that a gun in the house is far more likely to accidentally kill or maim an innocent than to successfully repel an attacker. The numbers are appalling.

Not even Kellerman himself claimed that. On the contrary, Kellerman didn't even consider "successfully repelling an attacker" at all. If the attacker didn't die, Kellerman didn't count it as a defensive gun use, and if the attacker died but was known to the victim, I believe it went into the shooting a friend/family member/acquaintance category, even if the "friend or family member" was a crazed ex trying to kill you. So if a woman pulled a gun and drove away an attacker in her home, or even shot and wounded him, halting the attack, it didn't count because she didn't kill him.

That fact, and the fact that Kellerman didn't bother to distinguish between guns in criminal households and guns in law-abiding households (which have dramatically different behavior and risk profiles) make the 1986 JAMA piece and its spinoffs pretty worthless for assessing the relative risk of a firearm in the home of someone who possess it legally, knows how to use it, and isn't involved in criminal activity.

[AtheistCrusader]

123. The only person suggesting anything like standing over a dead rapist with a smoking gun, is the OP.

See post 36, regarding pedophiles.

Where I come from, you only shoot someone if you or someone you have chosen to protect are in mortal danger. Extra Judicial killings is another term for Murder. Pedophiles may be vile creatures, but they still get due process. Leave it to the people who profess they would never own a gun, and that gun owners are cowards, to be flippant about murdering a pedophile.

[rl6214]

80. Do you carry a cell phone?

How about pepper spray or maybe clench you keys in your hand as you walk to your car at night? Do you park in a well lit parking area if you are going to be out at night? All of these things are done because of fear. Carrying a gun is not done out of fear but out of readiness for the unexpected evil that may occur.

[snappyturtle]

25. I heard the interview. This Dury talked about a 69 year old woman

who had called him to give him her credit card number to get a case of ammo for her AK47! She told Dury that no one was going to tell her she can't have ammo......what do you think she's getting ready for? With the rest of the context of the interview this Dury guy consistently referred to the President as just Obama and said that people are afraid of the socialists in the government since they're taking over the banks and companies--- what are they going to take over next? Lions, and tigers and bears, oh, my! Readiness on for these people is against their fellow citizens!

[Myrina]

22. OMG, I heard that ... there was NO logic!!

He was claiming that because Obama wants to 'socialize' everything and give money to corporations and people who don't work, that those same people who don't work (but now have money because Obama gave it to them) will 'come after' average people ....

:spank:

... and it irritated me that the narrator/interviewer didn't stop him in his tracks and ask him to 'SPLAIN THAT ???


:wtf:

[Tesha]

40. Technically, he wasn't speaking for himself at that point.

He was simply re-stating what his nutball customers were telling him.

But it sure did sound like he agreed with them, didn't it?

Tesha

[Myrina]

64. ... it would be bad for his business if he didn't agree ...

... he almost has to be of a similar mindset just to be in that "industry", one would assume. :shrug:

[remedy1]

24. Good. Don't own one then.

Just respect my constitutional right to own mine.

BTW...I don't live in a constant state of fear, nor am I a coward. Nice generalization about something you obviously know little about.

[luvspeas]

26. AGAIN...must I OWN a gun to have an opinion about them?

Or are gun owners the only ones entitled to have an opinion? I think that's what you are saying.

[jefflrrp]

34. I think part of the problem . . .

is that you may equate all legal gun owners with those crazies who've been acting out lately and shooting places up.
For the vast majority of the 80+ million gunowners, thats simply not true. The vast, vast, vast majority of guns never inflict harm on anyone or anything, unless you count holes in paper.

Those of us who have concealed carry permits are also a varied lot, and the vast majority don't "hide behind the gun" (although some may undoubtedly do so, I don't know everybody). I will tell you my experience: I have 2 permits, one from Virginia and another from New Hampshire. On the rare occasion that I do carry a handgun, its because I am with friends and family, or we're in a less-than-stellar area. Quite frankly I feel responsible for their safety. I do not carry a gun everyday (actually its more like once or twice a month), although if I had a smaller gun (say a small revolver or pistol) I probably would.

Do you know why I would? Because crime and/or violence can occur at any point or anywhere you are. Having a gun with me is another extra safety precaution, like having a fire extinguisher in my house or a glassbreaker in my car, that ensures that I have the tools necessary for an emergency situation.

I kinda consider owning a gun in this way. Like a fire extinguisher or glass-breaker, you probably won't ever need it in your day-to-day life; however if you happen to need it, almost nothing else will suffice.

Just my .02 cents. Now, on with the debate.

[luvspeas]

39. I am a wimpy white girl...

And I have been alone in more "less than stellar" neighborhoods than you can possibly imagine. I have never once in all my 25 years in these communities had a single problem with anyone except the police who followed me to a dark place away from where people could see and threatened to throw me in jail because I went to see some folks in the neighborhood that were challenging their brutally beating a kid to death. Believe me, not gun was gonna help me in that situation. I think that some actually experience and education would protect you more than your gun because when you are in these communities and you get to know people are are there to really help, you won't feel like you need a gun next time you drive through.

I think many of your comments are fear-based. sorry.

[doctor jazz]

53. Ironically, you are in (or claim to be) Austin which probably has, per capita, as many armed

people as any city in the nation. It's also a very safe city. Have you ever stopped your crusade long enough to recognize a correlation?

[luvspeas]

56. your becoming very boring....

You need to quit trying to be right. You have your opinion and I have mine. that's not going to change.

[doctor jazz]

58. Oh, you can believe I've spent many years talking to people who have made up their minds

and prefer to not be confused with facts.
:D

[luvspeas]

60. no, you don't seem to like facts very much...

but you are argumentative. fits the mentality.

[doctor jazz]

65. Wow, nothing gets by you, does it?

:D

[rl6214]

82. Facts?

What facts have you presented.

[jefflrrp]

61. then thats where we differ. . .

where you see fear, I see pragmatism. Carrying a gun is not something I do out of knee-jerk fear as I walk out my front door and take a furtive look around for a murdering terrorist rapist. Thankfully, I live in an area where the only crimes are the TPing of people's houses on the holidays. I am also happy that you seem to keep an aloof, "people are all good" mantra with you as well. +1 for optimism. I don't feel that way though. That happens to you after a few of your close friends have been raped or sexually assaulted.

The gun that I carry occasionally, a Glock 19, becomes almost a part of my outfit along with any of my other clothing/ gear. Along with the pen, swiss army knife, bandana, mini-flashlight, wallet, and keys, the gun only comes out when its needed (which thankfully has been never). I have never, ever, ever, ever in my five years of permitted concealed carry been ready to pull out the gun because I fear the shadows or am spooked by a creepy sound at night.

There has been a situation dealing with a poor old homeless guy who happened to stink of weed who asked a female friend of mine for a twenty. I had noticed him in my periphery following us down a darkened street for about 5 minutes. He caught up with us and started giving us his sob story. I stood off a little bit aways from him, my arms together, in order to give me some time to react to anything he might want to do (i.e. pull a knife or shard of glass, attempt a mugging, etc.). My friend felt sorry for him and gave him the money, and that was that. However, in the off-chance that he decided to escalate the situation, I had the tool (and the training, mind you) to hopefully bring that situation to a close.

And btw, fear isn't always a bad thing. All-consuming fear can be debilitating for many. However a healthy fear for yours or others' safety, coupled with a keen eye, the appropriate tools, and the ability to use them has kept many a person out of the morgue.

I look forward to hearing your response.

[luvspeas]

67. in the same breath you say that crime can happen anywhere at anytime...

Then you say that you carry your glock (rhymes with what?) when you are in certain areas. Of course you don't feel fearful. You believe you have resolved your fear with your gun that you seem to like A LOT! I've had plenty of reeky weed dudes ask me for money and guess what???? none of them ever did anything to me except walk away!!!!

and please do not assume I've never had people do bad things to me. I have more friends that were sexually abused in their nice suburban homes than you can possibly imagine. I say, arm a two year old to use a gun on a parent that thinks about doing something disgusting.

[doctor jazz]

78. You seem to be using your good fortune so far as a tool to impugn the ingegrity of

others who have either been victimized or might become so. I can't even begin to imagine how that fits into the mindset of a liberal or progressive or Democrat. It's pretty much like "I'm okay so fuck you"

[rl6214]

84. There you go

Gotta come up with the sexual reference. It's always the same old story with your type.

[jefflrrp]

85. The penis-mention award goes to you. I'm perplexed tho . . .

that you've seen all this bad stuff happen to other people, and so far don't seem to worry somewhat about your safety, as well. Fine. I wish that I could have such a stellar, happy go lucky attitude. But I don't. Once again, for the 'nth time, the gun is not there to stop fear, or remove it from the equation. Anybody who straps on a gun and then feels completely and utterly safe against all comers is an idiot, just like a person who straps on their seatbelt and feels that they're totally safe from being hurt in a car wreck. The gun is just another tool that could be used to help in certain rare situations.

And besides. I don't really like my glock that much. Its an ugly, no-frills utilitarian device that is extremely reliable. Now, my family-heirloom Smith and Wesson Model 10 that was passed down from my grandfather to my father to me, now I like that gun an AWFUL LOT. There's something oddly alluring about an old, finely constructed, blued revolver thats really appealing to the eyes.

[rl6214]

86. Wrong post

[jefflrrp]

90. crap

I did. OOOOOPPPPPSSSS =) My apologies

[rl6214]

94. Not a problem

I had a post already to unleash on you until I saw yours wasn't directed at me. Keep up the fight.

[dashrif]

107. Don't

Be a Size Queen

[X_Digger]

119. Agreed.

Perfect optimism = gullability, at least to a cynic like myself.

[spin]

43. Many people get concealed carry permits and make one BIG mistake...

They decide to carry a full size weapon.

A large weapon is heavy, awkward to carry and difficult to conceal. Consequently they only carry when they feel they may be in a "bad" area.

You state that you would carry your weapon more often if you had a smaller gun. Let me suggest you consider the weapon I carry in my front pants pocket.



S&W Model 642 5 shot 38+P

[jefflrrp]

46. thats funny . . . .

because the 642 is exactly the one I want. 15 oz of pure awesome. Now, if I could only get $500 somewhere =)

[luvspeas]

62. 15 oz of pure awesome

I find this statement disgusting.

[jefflrrp]

89. ok

thats your opinion. And Im cool with that. However, when a manufacturer of "whatever" designs a product with materials (such as the aluminum frame of the above revolver) that in previous years couldn't withstand such pressure and abuse (a round being fired has a lot of that, mind you), to admire it is as much a concedement of someone elses technological prowess as it is about the gun itself. Adding to the equation that it allows people to protect themselves who might have left a larger weapon at home and then proceeded to get robbed, beaten, raped or killed by doing so, and I'm damn proud of making that comment.

Next, please?

[spin]

93. If you ever had the opportunity to shoot one...

after the first shot, you would probably agree that it is indeed 15 oz of pure awesome.

[spin]

91. Be aware that this firearm has a stiff recoil as it is so light and...

any people have a difficult time mastering the double action trigger.

While it's not a fun gun to shoot, it so easy to carry that you'll find you will carry it far more often then a larger weapon that requires a belt holster.

With practice, you can become very accurate with the double action trigger pull and the trigger pull is heavy and long enough that it would be highly unlikely that you would fire a round by mistake.

It is an excellent weapon for concealed carry.

[jefflrrp]

97. thanks n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

124. If you're just going to get a hammerless .38 revolver

why in the heck would you pay for a S&W, if money is an object? Try the Taurus 850. Internal hammer, has an integral key lock, and whoopee, it fires .38 special. Not like it's going to be prone to jamming or anything, it's just a revolver. $326 and put the money you saved into a good holster, and practice ammo, or a safety class. http://www.impactguns.com/store/725327341093.html

[spin]

133. The Taurus snubbie looks like a good choice...

I bought my S&W Model 642 back before S&W stuck the trigger lock on the side of the frame. I had it for a good while.

I like S&W revolvers but I have talked to several Taurus owners who praised their firearms. I did fire a 4" Tarus .44 mag at the range and I loved the recoil absorbing "Ribber" grips.

The Smith weighs in at 15 oz while the Tauris is 23.4 ounces so for my pants pocket carry method I would prefer the Smith.

[AtheistCrusader]

135. Taurus can be hit or miss, depending on the model.

I would not recommend my wife's .45 Millennium, for instance. After they released it, they realized recoil from full pressure .45 ACP could cause the frame to crack, so they issue a warning not to use 230 grain .45 ACP in it. Great, that means I can't buy the cheap .45 ball practice ammo. I have to go find hollow points, with lighter bullets, so she can use it for practice. Not very cost effective. Other than that, it's been a rock solid little pistol, and it is very nice to shoot.

But for revolvers, man, it's hard to go wrong, as long as the fit and finish are ok. We have that .38 Taurus in Stainless Steel. It's not exactly light, but it's yet to have any discoloration, or scratches on it. Very nice little piece. Can't think of any design flaws with it. It is heavier than the S&W, but that never bothers me. Not unless it's a LOT heavier. Like double.

The 851 is more, almost $500, but it's only 16.8oz. http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=301&category=Revolver

[spin]

136. I did some quick research on the Tarus site...

and I missed the Model 851. Thanks.

[doctor jazz]

57. They used to call it the "Chief Special". It's a very nice little 5 shooter.

:D
(I have one and also a .357 version)

[spin]

98. I also have other J-frame revolvers...

a 4" model 60 .357



a 5" Model 60 .357



My daughter carries a S&W 351 PD Airlite .22 Magnum revolver.



I also have a model 940 9mm S&W J-frame with a 3" barrel. This is a relatively rare revolver.

I like J-frame S&W revolvers. The Model 642 and the Model 351 are great concealed carry weapons and the others are very accurate revolvers for punching paper at the range.

[Abq_Sarah]

48. It would be helpful if you had an informed opinion

But alas, there's no constitutional requirement for someone to actually know what they're talking about.

[rl6214]

81. You are painting ALL GUN OWNERS

With a pretty broad brush. I think that is one of the major objection is you are implying all gun owners own/carry gun out of fear when that's simply not true.

[DonP]

95. Nope, can my male Fundy cousin in Iowa try and force his opinion about abortion...

... on you and try to get legislation passed making it illegal?

It's pretty much the same thing. He's entitled to his opinion no matter how ignorant it is and so are you.

You can have any opinion you want. But when people decide to force their POV on others by making it law you have a problem.

[geckosfeet]

33. I can see your position and it makes perfect sense.

Who knows what it taking over all these people who are running out and killing people lately. Basically a mass killing a week since March. It is insane. It's not PMS cause they have all been men,,, well,, except for the woman who shot her son then herself on a target range one sunny afternoon. But we are not sure if she was suffering from PMS.

[jefflrrp]

37. and Im willing to bet . . .

that none of them were concealed carry permit holders.

[Abq_Sarah]

45. Well, then it's just as well

You don't own a weapon. That PMS crack doesn't make you sound particularly stable.

I do appreciate people who don't trust themselves giving up their right to own firearms. :)

[luvspeas]

59. I'm not sure why you chose to jump in....

and call me unstable and without the right to an opinion. Do you have anything to say that is constructive? I assume you think that guns are great - based on the fact that you feel the need to lash out at me. There seems to be something about the mentality that makes people mean.

[Abq_Sarah]

66. Hon...

Do not try and play the "victim" after you insulted millions of American citizens with your uninformed, nasty little rant.

[luvspeas]

68. millions!!! millions!!! such power I have!!!!!

hear me roar!

again, do you have anything of substance to contribute other than Snark?

[Abq_Sarah]

75. Substance?

Like calling millions of law abiding Americans cowards?

Piss off.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. Good example of controlling your fear.

:sarcasm:

We mock what we don't understand.

David

[luvspeas]

72. this is compelling....

this is the third time (at least) that people have told me I don't understand. WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO UNDERSTAND A GUN??????? Your logic is skewed and filtered by your personal experience. I also see some vague superiority going on. It's part of the mentality.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

76. Your blanket insults showed you clearly think you are superior.

[doctor jazz]

79. Well, Jesus loves you too.

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

83. Everyone sees them differently, luvspeas - There isn't one overarching mentality

I collect them because I have an affinity for precision metal objects and history.

Your logic is skewed and filtered by your personal experience.

The same could be said of anyone.

[jmg257]

115. Hmm...so, what has skewed and filtered YOUR logic?

[AtheistCrusader]

125. You're the one that started slinging names around, methinks the lady doth protest too much.

'Superiority' indeed.

[spin]

87. If I said that people that don't own guns are FOOLS...

that would be as a ridiculous statement as "people own guns because they are afraid".

Saying that gun owners own firearms because they are afraid is stereotyping.

A stereotype is a preconceived idea that attributes certain characteristics (in general) to all the members of class or set. The term is often used with a negative connotation when referring to an oversimplified, exaggerated, or demeaning assumption that a particular individual possesses the characteristics associated with the class due to his or her membership in it. Stereotypes can be used to deny individuals respect or legitimacy based on their membership in that group.

*******snip******

People also tend to stereotype because of another the need to feel good about oneself. Stereotypes protect one from anxiety and enhance self-esteem. By designating one’s own group as the standard or normal group and assigning others to groups considered inferior or abnormal, it provides one with a sense of worth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype

[Tim01]

88. 911 Actual tape. Woman shoots and kills intruder while he is strangling her.

Sorry, but this is the real world. Better dead criminals than dead citizens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkS8mdbml0A

[jmg257]

113. She was obviously just a coward, who didn't NEED her gun.

do I really need the sarcasm tag?

[ManiacJoe]

101. I applaud you on reason #2.

However, for reason #1, if you actually get out and meet some gun owners, you will probably find it does not hold.

[jmg257]

102. Thank God you are aware of number 2. I am SOO glad you don't want guns too.

You may also want to think twice about doing really dangerous stuff, like driving cars and raising kids.

[jmg257]

103. So you think if you had a gun you would live in a constant state of fear?

Are you afraid it will jump up and shoot you???

And why the hell would you hide behind it? That sounds more stupid then brave.


And what about all those gun owners who aren't cowards? They are perfectly fine, I guess (I am sure most are).

[wartrace]

114. I don't fear guns or suffer from emotional problems.

Unfortunately you do.

[hendo]

117. I hope

you are never in a position where having a gun would have saved you from an unspeakable trauma.

[luvspeas]

118. This is all very compelling......

My summary of this entire thread is as follows:

1) I think you all have proven my original premise that the desire to own a gun is based in fear. Many of you do not see that because you have resolved your fear through your gun. i.e. - I have my gun, therefor I do not fear.

2) I still believe that people who choose to live in this world without a gun are much braver than those who have guns, especially with the rest of you with your fingers on the trigger.

3) If you grouse because I think you are a coward, well, deal with it. I do not care if that insults millions of law-abiding 'Mericans. Again, when you are actually willing to sacrifice something for a cause, get back with me.

4) Some of you think I'm naive or as one of you put it, "lucky". That is inaccurate. I have learned a great deal about how to conduct myself in a way to maximize my safety in some challenging situations without the use of a weapon that might kill another human being unnecessarily. As a result, I have gained a deeper understanding of people and their situations as well as a mutual respect. You might want to try it sometime.

5) Finally, you all just need to get over the notion that people who own guns have some superior knowledge that people who choose to own guns do not. Although I have been accused of feeling superior, the vast majority of people in this post have told me that I don't know what I am talking about. I can only surmise that if I went to Wal-Mart tonight and bought me a gun, that some mysterious revelation would come over me and suddenly I'd UNDERSTAND. Sounds like a cult to me.

there. that's my 2 cents. now you wolves may pick me to shreds if you wish, but I know I am not alone in how I feel even if many of my compatriots did not wish to be subjected to your continuous attacks. I don't blame them. I don't back down from a fight though, even when my attackers have guns!

[chknltl]

120. Thank you.

Your OP and your coments throughout this thread were enlightening to me luvspeas, thank you for this. There are FAR too many in my neighborhood who disagree with you. Sometimes their actions speak louder than their words. I wish that you were my neighbor, it would make for a safer, (and more interesting), neighborhood imo.

:toast:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. So you live in fear.

You admitted you have learned to conduct yourself in a way to maximize your safety in some challenging situations without the use of a weapon that might kill another human being unnecessarily. Why was that necessary if you weren't scared of anything?

David

[AtheistCrusader]

126. Oh she's afraid.

Afraid of accidentally killing people, apparently. Pedophiles, specifically. Not that it would be legal or acceptable by any standard to do so.

[Furyataurus]

132. So...........

1. It has NOT been proven, you cannot PROVE an opinion.

2. Another opinion :yawn:

3. What more do you want us to "sacrifice"???? What have YOU sacrificed?

4. Just wait until you run into a "true" predator. What will you do then when nothing works????

5. The first sentence doesn't make sense. You don't go to UT by anychance do you? Are you afraid that the "Conceal carry" on college campuses bill is going to pass???? Anyways, what's keeping you from going out and handling firearms?????

[slackmaster]

140. No grousing here

I feel sorry for you for lacking the ability to see things from points of view other than your own very narrow one.

[Furyataurus]

130. So it really is true

that people like you "fear" guns because of what you "might" do with it? Does the idea of going on a murderous rampage "excite" you that you're afraid of yourself? Before I had my firearms I did not live in "fear", after I got my firearms I still do not live in "fear". Is it possible that you are just not "mature" or "responsible" enough to own a firearm?

Its your choice to not defend yourself or not when the time comes. When that does happen you will have no one to blame but yourself for what happened to you should you survive. Don't you like living???

[yay]

139. Me thinks you might strike a nerve.

I also doubt you'll get a response.

[Furyataurus]

131. Have you ever

held or even shot a firearm???? Have you ever been to any local shooting competitions????

[yay]

137. LOL..... No really LOL

"I do not wish to live in constant state of fear which is what I think all those cowards with guns do. I'd rather be truly brave and live my life by example and deeds, not hiding behind the barrel of a gun."

I didn't know fear was the reason I bought my ruger 10/22 and No.4 Mk1 rofl. You know nothing about me or why I own my guns, or what I use them for. Just because I own and use a gun doesn't mean it encompass 100% of my life, but if you wish to remain ignorant I guess I can't change that.

This thread fails.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

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