I need some research help.

[Tim01]

I want a chart on ammo energy. I want a chart that compared the energy of the AR and the AK to the energies of the other rifle rounds. A clean easy to understand chart so that a novice can look at it and easily see how they compare. I'm sure we have all heard about the "powerful assault weapon".
Nothing like a little truth to scuttle the lies.

[Furyataurus]

1. Look here

www.dakotaammo.net

www.hornady.com

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

[slackmaster]

2. Try this

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/bcompare.cgi?sn=BqDnrgeAmO

[Old Codger]

3. best place

The best place for that info that I know of is the actual manufacturers of the ammo, try remington, winchester, savage or any other ammo manufacturer

[sandnsea]

4. Totally not the point

A. Dead is Dead.

B. Previously, assault weapons were sought for specific crimes: gang crimes, school shootings, etc. That's the basis of the selection process.

C. Nancy Pelosi is going to "compromise". Which is precisely how we end up with gun laws that you can pick apart.

[Tim01]

5. I know you are anti gun and nothing will change your mind.

[sandnsea]

8. See. I am not anti-gun

I am anti-gun culture and anti-guns that kill kids because the owners are so addicted they won't accept the simplest of regulations, like a trigger lock or gun vault. And becaue I have lived in rural Montana, I know that the majority of gun owners support common sense regulations, even though the vocal minority has intimidated the majority into silence.

[yay]

10. If we bowed down to every "reasonable" gun law

We would be using muzzle loaded, black powder, match locks and have to wait 6 months to buy enough powder to shoot 5 rounds.

[MercutioATC]

12. Ok, you support trigger locks and gun vaults...

(although I'm not sure what you mean by a gun vault law)...

What other legislation do you believe we need?

[sandnsea]

13. First we need a funded ATF

It's the most underfunded agency in the government.

Then, let's make everybody follow the same rules to possess a handgun or semi-auto that we do to conceal a weapon. Be 21 years of age, complete an approved firearms safety or training course,
fill out the application form at your local sheriff's office with two forms of identification, have a firearms training certificate, give fingerprints and photos, pass the backgrund check, renew it every 4 years. Make similar hunter's safety courses required for rifles, shotguns, etc.

We need bullet tracing, and we need to track the sale of all guns.

Outlaw armor piercing bullets.

I would probably prefer a clip with 5 or less bullets.

And I would prefer that any gun that gives some teen-ager the idea that they're Rambo would not be made to the general public. Make it tougher to get them, like it is to get a machine gun or rocket launcher.

[MercutioATC]

14. Ok, my responses by the numbers...

1) No problem with fully funding the ATF.

2) I promise to address this suggestion in the near future...it's just too extensive for me to address at the moment.

3) Bullet tracing? How would you do that?

4) Ahhh...the myth of the "armor piercing bullet". Armor piercing bullets are already illegal.

5) I can drop a magazine and reload my Glock in about 4 seconds...and I'm not even good. Magazine size has almost nothing to do with rate of fire...it's still "one trigger pull, one shot".

6) So you want to ban guns that "look scary". Can we also ban cars that "look fast"?

[sandnsea]

17. You aren't willing to respect differing views

And therein lies the problem.

See #16, because what you do respect, some other gun nut won't.

[MercutioATC]

22. Actually, all I did was respond to your proposals.

Some, especially the "armor piercing bullet" thing, are not even a differing "view"...they're factual misconprehensions on your part.

[sandnsea]

26. Actually, you ridiculed what I said

You can order armor piercing bullets from a variety of magazines. You buy them in quantity the way they're sold to the military.

You wouldn't know how to trace bullets? Right.

And with the "scary" guns bullshit again?

Complete disrespect because that's what addicts do.

[X_Digger]

28. _civilians_ can't order armor piercing ammunition

LEO / SWAT / Mil can get armor piercing handgun rounds. They're illegal for civvies to purchase since 1986 (am 1994). NRA helped draft that legislation, btw. (18 U.S.C. 922(a)(7) and (8), and (b)(5), and 921(a)(17)(B) and (C)).

[Furyataurus]

29. true, armor piercing ammo

is legal for use in rifles and not in handguns in most states. Most states penal/criminal code define "armor piercing ammo" as "means HANDGUN ammunition that is designed primarily for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor and to be used principally in PISTOLS and REVOLVERS."

Since most rifle calibers 223 and above CAN penetrate even the lowest levels of body armor rifle calibers are excluded, as they should be.

[Statistical]

36. Rifle Armor Piercing Ammo is illegal

Any round designed to piercing body armor via a hardened steel penetrator is illegal for civilian usage/sale.

However most rifle cartridges despite not being designed to pierce armor have enough kinetic energy that they will pierce a level II vest.

I know it is subtle distinction but calling rifle ammo "armor piercing" will only lead to bans on some/all rifle ammo.

[Tim01]

46. Cheaper than dirt. SS109 Penetrator ammo

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM223-5.html

I know most rifle ammo will go through a vest.

Credit to dairydog91 for the link.

[benEzra]

54. M855/SS109 is ***NOT*** AP. It is regular ball (e.g., ordinary FMJ)

and penetrates less at close range than regular M193 (55gr FMJ) due to the lower velocity. The longer bullet gives it better penetration at 600 yards than M193 (which is not saying much), but only because it holds onto its velocity better (more mass, less drag).

Actual 5.56x45mm AP is black tip, tungsten core, e.g. M995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

If M855 were AP, it would be controlled under the 1986 AP bullet ban, which was extended by a 1994 BATFE administrative decision to cover rifle calibers up through 7.62x51mm/.308 Winchester. It's not, because it's not AP.

[Statistical]

35. Armor Piercing ammo has been illegal for civilians for 20+ years.

However MOST rifle cartridges powerful enough to take down a medium sized game (deer) will penetrate a level II vest.

Cop Body armor was designed to defeat handgun rounds and provide some protection from shotgun (buckshot not slugs).

For example the popular .308 Winchester will defeat any level II vest on the market.

It isn't armor piercing but it simply is a relatively large fast round and a vest designed to stop handgun rounds is no protection.

To call all .308 Winchester "armor piercing" is foolish. By that token my car is "armor piercing" because it I hit a police officer wearing any body armor at 60mph with my car he/she likely will die.

Should be ban "armor piercing" cars also?

[Tejas]

69. Private citizens can sell it to each other all day long,

but FFL's can not sell it to private citizens.

[MercutioATC]

37. The only sarcasm in my post addressed your suggestion that we ban guns based on appearance.

...which IS equivalent to banning cars that LOOK fast...

That aside, there is no cost-effective way to make bullets traceable...and you'd have to outlaw all private reloading of ammunition.

Armor piercing handgun rounds have been illegal for non-law enforcement use for over 20 years...the "armor-piercing bullets" thing IS a myth.

The only suggestion that might have a positive effect is additional funding for ATF...as long as they used it to crack down on illegal sales and importation, not harassing legitimate gun owners.

[Tim01]

38. sandnsea- Link to armor peircing ammo for sale will end this discussion.

[dairydog91]

40. Ask and you shall receive...

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM223-5.html

Doesn't really prove anything, though. Standard .223 FMJ will also blast through a basic police vest. AP pistol rounds would be a problem, but they are illegal to sell.

[Statistical]

48. M855 is standard ball round. M955 is Armor Piercing around.

M855 is standard army "green tip" and is used for everything from combat to qualification, to battle sight zero.

Of course saying M855 ball ammo for sale isn't "hyped" and doesn't command as much of a premium.

M855 is more armor piercing than your average Remington or Winchester hunting round.

The M955 on the other hand is a true hardened armor piercing around.
It also hasn't be available to civilians for 30 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO
Scroll down to Military Cartridges
M855 vs M955

[Tim01]

51. Wow, I think I get it . A little confusing.

Hunting ammo does what hunting ammo does. M855 has a steel tip and penetrates more than hunting ammo or FMJ. M955 penetrates more than the M855.

[benEzra]

55. No, M855 *IS* regular FMJ.

It has a small steel insert in the middle, not a steel tip, and penetrates less at close range than 55gr lead-core FMJ (M193).

[Tim01]

59. M855 SS109 Penetrator ammo. 62 grain with steel tipped penatrating core

This is from the Cheaper Than Dirt ad. I have no idea what any of this stuff is. Are you saying the advertisement is not accurate?



http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM223-5.html

Manufacturer: Military Contract AMM223
Item: AMM-223

Non-returnable item. We will not accept any returns on this item.

20 Rounds of a special lot of military load ammunition, some of the boxes have a misprint and state M885, the lot is mixed with misprint boxes, this is the reason we were able to obtain this special lot of M855, SS109 ammunition.

Lake City 5.56 Ammo is the best 5.56 Military ammo manufactured. This the original US Military Lake City Arsenal M855 SS109 Penetrator ammo. 62 grain with steel tipped penatrating core for combat use, firing at 3,025 f.p.s. very scarce and limited supplies, 20 round boxes with US Markings. This is identical to the ammo being used right now in Iraq by US troops.

Probably the best 5.56 ammo for combat ever produced in the USA. So scarce in the commercial market we have not sold any in 15 years. Simply put, this is some of the best ammo on the surplus ammo market today at a a great price.
Price is per 20 round box. Ammo can not ship air.

[Statistical]

62. No it isn't.

Some claims are accurate but misleading.

"This is identical to the ammo right now in Iraq US troops".

Of course it is M855 is standard issue ammo, however the underlying message is "pay more because this is super special combat ammo". The truth is standard issue anything is usually not "special".

Insurgents wear no armor. Using hardened armor piercing ammo would simply increase the cost of ammo with no benefit.

M955 ammo is armor piercing but isn't sold to civilians.

"Probably the best 5.5mm ammo for combat" well if you are against armored target this is obviously wrong as M955 (or preferably a .308 AP round) would better.

So yes and no.
It is US ARMY ammo.
It is used by troops in Iraq.
It is not "special"
It is not some super round.
It is not armor piercing.

Notice they never make the claim it is AP they just hint at it and hope the consumer ASSUMES it is AP.

[Tim01]

64. So is it steel tipped? They say it is.

[Statistical]

65. Yes but it isn't armor piercing.

It is steel tipped lead core.

The steel tip isn't to penetrate armor.

The M855 is an OLD OLD OLD round (40 years+).

The reason for the steel is actually rather mundane.

The Army found that the combination of feeding mechanism on the M4/M16 series of rifles and the small 5.56mm round which has a long thin point was causing ammo to wear down.

Soldiers loading and unloading weapons were tearing up the round tips and the lead would end up in the receiver.

So the Army engineers found using a steel tip over lead core solved the problem.

The Army has used the M855 for everything since then, not just combat.
Target practice, drills, even rifle zeroing is done with the M855.

If you need AP capabilities you use the M955 round.

BTW: The M855 is one of only 2 rounds the BATFE has specifically named as "NOT ARMOR PIERCING" under Federal Law. They did it because of the amount of confusion caused by the law and number of calls/questions they had on this single round.

hundreds of thousands of surplus M855 is sold every year (well not recently due to Iraq).

Steel doesn't make a round AP.
HARDENED Steel penetration making up a substantial portion of the bullets weight is required to make a round stay intact when punching through armor plate.

[Tim01]

66. Got it. You are very knowledgable, thanks.

[benEzra]

67. The ad is misleading in a couple of ways.

First of all, the ammunition is not steel tipped; it is copper tipped. The lead core can be said to be "steel tipped," in that there is a light steel cap at the front of the lead core to resist deformation, but the main ballistic effect is to keep the longer, heavier M855 core from going to pieces when it hits something hard.

Second, at ranges closer than 200 yards or so, penetration of M855 against hard materials is inferior to lead-core M193 ball (as I pointed out above), because of M855's lower velocity. Past 200 yards, M193 velocity has fallen off enough that M855 becomes the better penetrator, and it retains velocity well enough that by 600 yards, it will still penetrate thin steel that M193 has lost the ability to penetrate. The long-range penetration difference is due to the M855's better ballistic coefficient (around 0.304 for M855, vs. 0.243 for M193) and slightly greater mass.

The long-range penetration criterion was the reason why the military switched from M193 to M855, as this was the Cold War and planners were envisioning long-range engagements in Europe. The main focus of concern was the M249, not the M16, but the ammunition was switched across the board for logistics reasons.

The BATFE armor-piercing bullet regulations specifically exclude M855 from the scope of the law due to its non-armor-piercing nature; all manufacture of AP ammunition in .223/5.56x45mm is restricted by Federal law to police/military use only, but M855 is exempt because it is not AP. The military classifies it as ordinary ball, not AP (MIL-C-63989 Cartridge, 5.56MM, Ball, M855).

I bought a few boxes of M855 for my Ruger mini-14 a few years ago, mostly to see if it would be any more accurate than 55-grain FMJ. Accuracy was a little better, but not much, and accuracy and terminal ballistics are decidedly inferior to civilian JHP's, so I used it all up and never bought any more.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. Still no link to "armor piercing pistol ammo" for sale... n/t

[sandnsea]

47. There is so much ammo available

That anybody can find what they want, load it themselves, or make other adjustments. You all know that, and will just lie through your teeth to deny it.

http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/ammunition.htm

[Tim01]

49. No need for insults. Calm down. I didn't get out of line with you.

[benEzra]

53. And that ammo is RESTRICTED by Federal law. Get informed.

That anybody can find what they want, load it themselves, or make other adjustments. You all know that, and will just lie through your teeth to deny it.

http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/ammunition.htm

And that ammo is RESTRICTED by Federal law. Get informed.

You do realize that site caters largely to military and police, yes? They can use all the AP they want. But for we peons, AP ammunition for handguns and for rifles up through 7.62x51mm/.308 Winchester (including .223/5.56x45mm) is controlled by the 1986 AP bullet ban. Look it up.

Civilians are limited to non-AP for all rifle calibers for which such restrictions would matter.

[sandnsea]

57. No, it isn't ALL restricted

You know it as well as I do. You can still get around restrictions because the NRA makes sure there are always loopholes. Why do states need their own laws if the federal law is so restrictive?

[benEzra]

58. Everything under .30-06 Springfield IS restricted by Federal law.

And you posted a link to a discussion of .223/5.56x45mm AP (from a military/police oriented board, at that), ammunition which is indeed explicitly restricted by Federal law.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d099:HR03132:|TOM:/bss/d099query.html (delete space and link should work)

That law was expanded in 1994 to cover rifle calibers below .30-06 Springfield, and that law still stands.

And the Dem who sponsored that law (Mario Biaggi, D-NY) said of it:

(it) was not some watered down version of what we set out to do. In the end there was no compromise on the part of police safety.

AP in .30-06 and up is irrelevant because .30-06 and up will penetrate Level III hard armor WITHOUT AP. Level III will stop .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 non-AP, though, which is why AP restrictions in those calibers actually make a difference.

Why do states need their own laws if the federal law is so restrictive?

Ignorance of existing Federal law, grandstanding, or a combination of both. A lot of people think automatic weapons are unrestricted, too.

[Statistical]

63. There is no link to purchase....

It would be like linking to a wikipedia article of F-22 and saying civilians are buying F-22.

The M955 round you linked to IS AN AP ROUND. It is illegal for sale to civilians under 18 US SeC. 921(a)(17). I challenge you to find a link, or scanned magazine article, or actual bill of sale from ANYONE, ANYWHERE that is selling such ammo. BATFE would arrest them & shut down the store.

If anyone was doing this don't you think groups like Brady would shut them down by buying this illegal ammo and turning it over to BATFE?

Know the law first:

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]

Note the following things from the definition:

1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
>From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does.

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
or should be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.


ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:
All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:
5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, which consists of a lead core & steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 steel/lead core ammo.

[dairydog91]

39. Why does it matter?

Armor-piercing handgun ammunition is banned. Meanwhile, most rifles loaded with standard ammunition will blast holes through standard "soft" body armor (Which is worn by every cop except SWAT). So what's with the demand for banning AP ammo?

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. What kind of gun would give someone "the idea that they're Rambo" ?

Appearance? Function? Caliber? Magazine capacity?

What has been misconstrued about your words quoted below?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x214061#214106

And I would prefer that any gun that gives some teen-ager the idea that they're Rambo would not be made to the general public. Make it tougher to get them, like it is to get a machine gun or rocket launcher.

[benEzra]

56. Full auto M60 machinegun, a serrated hunting knife, and big 1980's hair. (n/t)

[krispos42]

61. You might find this photo essay helpful

It's an informal test of Level IIIA body armor against a variety of firearms.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm




Armor-piercing ammo was designed to give more penetration through steel plating over regular bullets. Given a choice, I'd rather be shot with an AP bullet than a regular one.



Regular bullets vs. a Buick

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm

[Tejas]

70. They sure don't make Buicks like they used to,

not that I can afford to shoot .40 anyways :)

[krispos42]

71. I had the Oldsmobile version of the exact same car

It's beefier in the sheetmetal than my 2005 Subaru, FWIW.



I'd still want my Subie in an accident, though!

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. #16 is pointing out harassment "under color of law" by the ATF

Which is just as wrong when done as a COINTELPRO against law-abiding war protestors as it is
in the examples given.

"Equal rights for me but not for thee", eh?

[gorfle]

15. On your proposals...

Then, let's make everybody follow the same rules to possess a handgun or semi-auto that we do to conceal a weapon. Be 21 years of age, complete an approved firearms safety or training course,
fill out the application form at your local sheriff's office with two forms of identification, have a firearms training certificate, give fingerprints and photos, pass the backgrund check, renew it every 4 years. Make similar hunter's safety courses required for rifles, shotguns, etc.

If we did all this, could anyone carry a concealed weapon?

In any case, I cannot support your proposal, as it eliminates anonymous firearm ownership. Any proposal that does this is a non-starter with me.

We need bullet tracing, and we need to track the sale of all guns.

See above. Anonymous firearm ownership is what gives the armed citizenry power over its government. With a database of all such citizens in the hands of the government, that power is greatly eroded. Thus it's a non-starter.

Outlaw armor piercing bullets.

Did you know that most hunting bullets will penetrate body armor?

I would probably prefer a clip with 5 or less bullets.

Why? The latest shooter, Wong, went through 98 bullets in less than a minute with 2 handguns that could hold no more than 30 rounds maximum together, and more than likely held no more than 15 together. Clearly reloading is not an impediment to mayhem.

And I would prefer that any gun that gives some teen-ager the idea that they're Rambo would not be made to the general public.

What sort of guns give that idea, in your opinion? What sort of guns do not give that idea, in your opinion?

Make it tougher to get them, like it is to get a machine gun or rocket launcher.

You mean like paying a $200 annual tax to exercise a Constitutional right?

[Tim01]

16. We finally sued the ATF enough times

that they stopped harassing people they had no business harassing, trying to intimidate everybody at gun shows, and putting illegal cameras on private property without permission.

[yay]

18. In order:

1: No opinion

2: I have no problems with classes(or a license but why 21? This doesn't make any sense to me

3: Bullet tracing is a failure of an idea. Not only would ammunition prices soar but a lot of defensive/hunting rounds expands to the point where printed, or indented text wouldn't be legible.

4: We already do

5: What is an armor piercing bullet? What kind of armor? If your just talking about stuff commonly used by police you would be effectively banning most hunting calibers.

6: *magazines and why? Seems rather pointless to me.

7: lol wut?

[AtheistCrusader]

23. You don't even know what you're asking for.

If you did, you'd know you already have some of it. Congratulations, you may already be a winner! Armor piercing pistol ammunition has been illegal for the public for about 20 years.


ANY rifle ammo is 'armor piercing', so no point banning the milsurp rifle stuff. If you can kill a deer or a bear with it, it's going to go through and through IIIa armor, and most police don't wear heavier than IIa.

[BigBluenoser]

24. 5 or less bullets?

Wouldn't that make every revolver (okay 99.7% of them - some are 5) illegal?

Or would it only make the speed loaders illegal?

Or would revolvers get an exemption because they are not "scary"?

I am lousy competitive revolver guy and I can avg a shot / second with center mass hits on multiple targets. In fact, I know I can draw, hit 6 targets with two shots each (A zone hits) in under 12 seconds. This includes both draw and reload. I know because I did it a few weeks back. And like I said, I'm a bad revo shooter.

The bullets that come out of a revo also tend to be much nastier than those that come out of an auto.

I'm not arguing that hi-cap mags in 9mm or .40 do not make the semi-automatic a far more efficient gun. I'm just pointing out that there may not be a "mag capacity" that will allow you to feel comfortable.

If you were talking rifles only, I've seen some sick shit done (speed wise, talking paper here) with an old WWII era USSR Mosin Nagant and stripper clips too. They have a fixed 5 shot mag and are bolt action.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. Typecasting, as described in 'The Gift of Fear', and argumentum ad populum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear

http://www.kidpower.org/ARTICLES/boundary-lowering-tactics.html

TYPECASTING. Understandably, most people don't like to be labeled as being uncaring, unkind, thoughtless, selfish, paranoid, unfair, misusing their power, or ignorant. Someone might deliberately use negative labels to get you to react in the opposite direction....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

An argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges that "If many believe so, it is so."

And because I have lived in rural Montana, I know that the majority of gun owners support common sense regulations, even though the vocal minority has intimidated the majority into silence.

Two replies to that:

1. You know nothing of the sort. The best you can say is: The majority of gun owners that have
expressed an opinion to you support common sense regulations.

And what "common sense regulations" would that be, exactly? You haven't said, and the MT gun owners
might have a different definition of "common sense" than you.

We have no way of knowing.

2. Jim Crow laws and the Patriot Act were supported by the majority, for a time.
Is "popularity" a metric for "just" you would have us use?

[rl6214]

68. If the vocal minority were in deed the minority

Why hasn't the majority ruled on this subject? We are a representative democracy aren't we? Aren't our representatives supposed to vote for us on laws and bills? Then shouldn't the majority rule?

Maybe it's not the vocal minority but really the vocal majority that is speaking out!

[Pullo]

19. By supporting an AWB, you bear a sizeable responsibility in their proliferation

Bill Clinton damn near created the market for "assault-weapons." Growing up, I used to go to gun shows with family members, and you would have had a hard time finding an AR-15 or a semi-auto AK. That all changed when the totality of the gun control legislation in the '94 Crime Bill rocked the gun-owning community like a Cat 5 constitutional hurricane. Gun owners didn't really take the NRA seriously before. We did enjoy their hunting and shooting magazines, though, and the liveliest debates we had usually centered on which magazine was better: The American Rifleman or the American Hunter.

Then the propaganda of the NRA was proven true. Suddenly, gun shows were packed. Emboldened politicians openly waxed about the next round of gun control they would pass. Registration, "arsenal" taxes, more bans, the 2nd was only a collective right, you name it. Instead of tables full of "normal looking" rifles and shotguns with an occasional "military style" weapon, gun shows were now all about "military style." Gun shows became the hubs of an intense grass-roots movement. The NRA's membership swelled. Democrats became the minority party. Concealed weapon laws were liberalized across the United States.

Companies opened up who specialized in things like AR-15's. They improved the rifle substantially, and today's AR-15 can drive tacks with the grandpa's deer rifle, and in many cases shoot better. They are now fantastic guns to hunt and shoot competitively with. They are the most popular rifles sold today. By far.

Every time Sen Feinstein flaps her lips about the inherent evil of a .50 cal rifle, people buy them up. Just because in many cases. You see, if the .50 cal was somehow banned, Barrett would suddenly announce the brand new .497 cal, that shot a round consisting 50bmg case slightly necked down to fit Hornady's new .497 bullets. They would FLY off the shelves faster than Barret could crank them out, and sell at rates much higher than the 50's ever did.

What is end result of Federal gun control in the USA? Massive firearm proliferation.

[Tim01]

20. I never hand any intention of getting an "assault rifle"

until President Clinton showed me they really were going to try to ban the guns. I was sick of the NRAs constant bullshit. I didn't really see anything I could use one for, and I figured if I ever wanted one for some reason I would just go buy one like anything else.
And then the assault weapon ban took effect and showed me I had better get now, what ever I might want in the future.

[aikoaiko]

60. Are you saying gangs use so called assault weapons more than other guns

or that they are involved in school shootings more than other guns?

If so, I'm open to seeing the data on that. In many cases initial reports of "assault weapons" are incorrect.

[MercutioATC]

6. If facts would make a difference, there would be no debate.

There's absolutely no practical difference between an "assault weapon" and most hunting rifles.

They don't care. The black guns scare them.

[Tim01]

7. Seriously, the middle ground folks have been lied to.

And they are rational and make reasonable decisions. But the only info they have received has been "powerful assault rifle" with "military armor peircing bullets" that tear through flesh. Lies.
They believe the lies because they have heard nothing else.
A guy stood right here in my house holding my AR and said "No, this isn't an assault rifle. They don't want to ban these." "Any hunter worth his salt doesn't need a machine gun to hunt with anyway."
This actually happened. I poked around and found there is a whole shitload of people who believe this stuff. I intend to educate a few of them. Then they can make a real decision.

[MercutioATC]

11. I've tried. This is one of my favorite examples:

This firearm is an "assault weapon":



This is a "hunting rifle":



Why? Both are gas-operated semiautomatic rifles chambered in .308 and both have detachable magazines. There's no difference in caliber or operation, one just looks "scary".

[krispos42]

9. You might have to make one in Excel or the freeware equivilent

It's not that hard... Winchester Ammo's site I find is the easiest to navigate. Pick the caliber on the right, click on a mid-weight bullet, then copy-and-paste.

[Tim01]

21. I think this is going to be the way to go.

Thanks.

[Furyataurus]

25. Hows the research coming????

Any of the websites help?????

[Tim01]

32. This one.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm

This one is very good, but it translates very badly and I can't manipulate it the way I want. Get rid of the velocity listings. Just leave caliber and energy. Highlight .223 and 7.62x39, and rank them by power.

Damn, just look at that mess.




Cartridge MV (fps) V @ 200 yds ME (ft lb) E @ 200 yds
.204 Ruger (33 BTSP) 4225 3025 1308 671
.22 Hornet (45 Sp) 2690 1502 723 225
.222 Rem. (50 Sp) 3140 2123 1094 500
.223 Rem. (55 Sp) 3240 2304 1282 648
.22-250 Rem. (55 Sp) 3680 2656 1654 861
.220 Swift (55 SpBT) 3800 2990 1765 1090
.223 WSSM (55 SpBT) 3850 3064 1810 1147
.243 Win. (80 Sp) 3350 2593 1993 1194
.243 Win. (100 Sp) 2960 2449 1945 1332
6mm Rem. (100 Sp) 3100 2573 2133 1470
.243 WSSM (100 Sp) 3110 2583 2147 1481
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 Sp) 3406 2882 2576 1844
.257 Roberts (120 Sp) 2780 2360 2060 1480
.25 WSSM (120 Sp) 2990 2484 2382 1644
.25-06 Rem. (120 Sp) 2990 2484 2382 1644
.257 Wby. Mag. (120 Sp) 3305 2801 2910 2091
.260 Rem. (140 Sp) 2750 2347 2351 1712
6.5x55 SE (140 Sp) 2600 2220 2100 1525
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 Sp) 3210 2778 2744 2056
6.5x68 S (140 Sp) 2990 2580 2779 2069
.264 Win. Mag. (140 Sp) 3030 2548 2854 2018
6.8mm Rem. SPC (115 Sp) 2800 2262 2002 1307
.270 Win. (130 Sp) 3060 2639 2702 2009
.270 Win. (150 Sp) 2850 2183 2705 1587
.270 WSM (150 Sp) 3150 2601 3304 2252
.270 Wby. Mag. (150 Sp) 3245 2823 3502 2655
7x57 Mauser (140 Sp) 2660 2260 2200 1585
7mm-08 Rem. (140 Sp) 2860 2402 2542 1793
.280 Rem. (140 Sp) 3000 2528 2797 1986
7mm Rem. SAUM (150 Sp) 3110 2563 3221 2188
7mm WSM (150 Sp) 3200 2648 3410 2335
7mm Rem. Mag. (150 SpBT) 3110 2751 3221 2520
7mm Wby. Mag. (150 SpBT) 3300 2896 3627 2793
7mm Ultra Mag. (160 Sp) 3200 2791 3637 2767
.30 Carbine (110 RN) 1990 1236 967 373
.30-30 Win. (150 FP) 2390 1605 1902 858
.30-30 Win. (170 FP) 2200 1619 1827 989
.300 Sav. (150 Sp) 2630 2095 2303 1462
.308 Win. (150 Sp) 2820 2288 2648 1744
.308 Win. (180 Sp) 2620 2198 2743 1930
.30-06 Spfd. (150 Sp) 2910 2342 2820 1827
.30-06 Spfd. (180 Sp) 2700 2023 2913 1635
.300 Rem. SAUM (180 Sp) 2960 2571 3501 2642
.300 WSM (180 Sp) 2970 2549 3526 2598
.300 Win. Mag. (180 Sp) 2960 2540 3501 2578
.300 Wby. Mag. (180 Sp) 3240 2826 4195 3193
.300 Ultra Mag. (180 Sp) 3250 2834 4221 3201
7.62x39 (125 Sp) 2365 1783 1552 882
.303 British (180 Sp) 2460 2020 2420 1625
.32 Spec. (170 FP) 2250 1630 1910 1000
8x57 JS (170 RN) 2360 1620 2100 995
.338-57 O'Connor (200 FP) 2400 1638 2558 1191
.338 Win. Mag. (225 Sp) 2780 2374 3860 2815
.340 Wby. Mag. (250 Sp) 2941 2553 4801 3618
.338 Ultra Mag (250 Sp) 2860 2443 4540 3314
.357 Mag. (180 HP) 1550 980 960 385
.35 Rem. (200 RN) 2080 1376 1921 841
.35 Whelen (200 Sp) 2675 2100 3177 1958
.350 Rem. Mag. (200 Sp) 2775 2186 3419 2122
9.3x62 (286 SpBT) 2362 1931 3544 2370
.375 H&H Mag. (300 Sp) 2530 1979 4262 2608
.375 Ultra Mag (300 Sp) 2760 2263 5073 3412
.378 Wby. Mag. (270 SP) 3180 2677 6062 4295
.416 Rem. Mag. (400 Sp) 2400 1962 5115 3419
.416 Rigby (400 RN) 2370 1890 4990 3130
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 FP) 1760 1114 1650 661
.444 Marlin (240 FP) 2350 1377 2942 1010
.450 Marlin (350 FP) 2100 1397 3427 1516
.45-70 (300 HP) 1810 1244 2182 1031
.45-70 (405 FP) 1330 1055 1590 1001
.458 Win. Mag. (500 RN) 2090 1650 4850 3025
.460 Wby. Mag. (500 RN) 2600 2037 7504 4605

[Furyataurus]

33. IMO

Keep the velocity. As I'm sure you noticed that as the caliber/weight increases there comes a point where the velocity DECREASES and energy INCREASES to a certain point.



So what are your impressions????? Do you own any firearms??? It sounds like you're somewhat familiar with them.

[Statistical]

34. Velocity alone is not a good indication of power....

bad news is neither is muzzle energy = kinetic energy.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass * velocity^2.
Since velocity is squared it over estimates the power of light fast rounds and under estimates power of heavier slower rounds.

At once time it was assumed that kinetic energy would be a good ruler for power of a cartridge however that has been proven by ballistic testing but the "spec" still stands.

A 9mm 115gr bullet has higher KE than a 124gr or 147gr.
In ballistics testing 124gr & 147gr cartridges penetrate better which is why LEO has moved to heavier/slower rounds.

Most self defense authors no longer recommend the 115gr light & fast rounds for self defense.

Better comparison would be momentum = mass * velocity.
Bad news is momentum is not as well known.

Kinetic Energy is a marketing figure only. It has no relationship with real world performance.

That being said if you need a spec that non-gun owners and gun-owners can use as a comparison muzzle energy will do the job (only because momentum is not a spec posted by manufacturers).

[Tim01]

45. My impressions?

I already know how my .223 compares to my 300 win mag. It is the average person who hears "powerful assault rifle" and believes it simply because nobody has told them any different.

[spin]

27. I found a site that allows you to do exactly what you want...

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

Just input three calibers on the first page. On the second page pick the desired loads to compare. The third page gives the results and includes velocity and energy at the muzzle and a various ranges as well as trajectory info.

Easy and entertaining. I enjoyed comparing the calibers that I'm considering for a hunting rifle.

[Furyataurus]

30. I beat you to it

a loooooooong time ago. lol

[spin]

31. I did kinda walk into that one. LOL (nt)

[dairydog91]

44. Never mind...

Table won't format right :crazy:

[benEzra]

52. Here you go:

http://www.tribtalk.com/showthread.php?t=16466

Scroll down a little for the velocity and energy comparisons.

You may also find some useful stuff in my DU Journal:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/benEzra
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/?az=archives&j=4607&page=1