arming merchant ships as a solution to piracy problem?

[bossy22]

well i shouldnt say a complete solution- but in my opinion it would help. On the open ocean help is sometimes days away leaving ships to fend for themselves.

I think that even a few shotguns on board a merchant ship (with some crew training) would go along way in helping...it would atleast give the crew a fighting chance to repel the attack (first rule of a gun fight- bring a gun).

It may even making piracy less palatable...seeing that once easy money isn't so easy anymore

What do you guys think?

[bbinacan]

1. I agree with you. n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

2. A couple of .50s for and aft sure would make them think twice.

[drm604]

3. I'm surprised that they don't regularly have armed guards on board.

I think I always just assumed that they had at least a small security force.

[Arctic Dave]

4. Dumb, dumb and dumb. As I posted earlier on another thread

the amount of traffic on the ocean at any given time in huge. If everyone fired off "warning" shots everytime another ship came along, travel and trade would come to a stand still.

[bkkyosemite]

10. There are ways to see what the intentions of that other ship are from a distance. They are holding

nasty weapons in their hands and speeding towards the ship is a good clue they are Pirates.

[Arctic Dave]

18. Well golly, I thought it was the Jolly Roger that really gave them away.

Is this the same logic that says all criminals are unshaven and poorly dressed?

[Hoopla Phil]

19. Nope. It's not the Jolly Roger waving but the AK-47s in their hands.

[Arctic Dave]

22. So the pirates come at the ship at a high rate of speed

waving AKs and acting like idiots? I'm sorry I haven't read that Clive Cussler book yet.If this is the case, why doesn't the Capt. order the ship to full speed? Or better, Flank 3.

[Hoopla Phil]

24. LOL. You are kidding right? I ask because it was very funny

reading that post. I hope it was intentional. LOL.

[Arctic Dave]

28. Why is that funny. Tankers are able to outrun smaller ships in open ocean

because they have less surface area to make up because they can cut through the water. I'm going to geuess you don't know what flank 3 is, is the ship version of shitin' and gettin'.

[Hoopla Phil]

30. I hate to resort to this but. . .please source that. What are the speeds

of the cargo ships and the boats that the pirates have? If what you are saying is true then ALL the hijacked ships just allowed themselves to be taken. I seriously believe you are in error on the speeds of the boats involved so please city where you get this information.

[Hoopla Phil]

33. I'll give you half the answer. Cargo ships average 20 knots.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_top_speed_of_a_cargo_ship

[Arctic Dave]

37. Here is the average for cargo ships

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_top_speed_of_a_cargo_ship

As for the "pirate ship", if the pictures that were shown earlier are an accurate description I would have guess(yes this a guess)would be 10kn. Why, because an open bow fiberglass boat is heavy, it appeared to using an undersized outboard motor and if the conditions in Somalia are as bad as people say, I don't think these guys are using a high performance motor.

The only two advantages the "pirates" have is the small size of their boat (this will help them evade most radar) and two they can blend in with the hundereds of other boats that the cargo ship will encounter during their voyage.

[AtheistCrusader]

57. The pirates are using whatever they can get their hands on.

Including stolen fishing vessels that have no business in deep waters. So you're not going to get an absolute comparison here. Clearly SOME of the pirate ships are fast enough, or the pilots are savvy enough to work out an intercept.

Some are not, and some of those are never heard from again. High seas are dangerous.

[bossy22]

25. often these large ships

can't outrun or out maneuver these small speed boats....they try to fend them off with fire hoses...but even those have proven ineffective at times

[Arctic Dave]

27. Actually on the open ocean they can out run them no problem.

The have the ability to cut straight through the swells. If pirates are in small boats they do not have that ability, because they have to cover more surface area.

[Hoopla Phil]

31. So what exactly is the speeds of the boats and ships involved? And

please source this information.

[Hoopla Phil]

34. Here is half the answer. Cargo ships average 20 knots.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_top_speed_of_a_cargo_ship

[Arctic Dave]

35. I would have to speculate on that, if the pictures shown are a

realistic description, I would guess 10kn tops. You also have to factor in the speed and boat type would result in nil for any type of accuracy while firing.

[Hoopla Phil]

38. LMFAO!!! You REALLY need to do some research and stop guessing.

A Heritage ROW BOAT can average 6 knots. LMFAO!!!! Care to revise your "guess". HaHaHa

[Arctic Dave]

39. Not at all. Read my other post and you will see why.

It doesn't even include the years in the Navy when I witnessed both kind of boats in action.

[Hoopla Phil]

40. If you really had that kind of experience then you surly would not

be trying to get someone to believe what is so patently false on its face. The fact is that these cargo ships are very slow. The pirates are using what is often called "speed boats" in the press to catch them. It does not take much at all to push a 20 foot boat to 40 or even 50 knots in open water. It is obvious you have never spent any time in a Boston Whaler fishing boat. Seriously, do a little looking into the matter. Your posts didn't seem right to me on my limited knowledge so I did a little looking into it. You are just plain wrong on this issue.

[Arctic Dave]

41. Your right, I'm trying to bed you sweetheart.

If you knew jackshit about open ocean cargoship, or ocean going anything for that matter you wouldn't be so mouthy. As for a Boston Whaler, give me a break, the eighties are over, along with that brandname (not that these guys were using them anyways). I would stick to things you no more about, whatever that is.

[Hoopla Phil]

42. Must have struck pretty close to the mark for you to get so worked up there.

Fact, Cargo ships are slow.

Fact, the Somali pirates are using boats that go much faster than their targets.

Saying otherwise as often as you can will not change those two facts. Claiming personal knowledge will not change those two facts. Making personal attacks or trying to provoke a response by calling me "sweetheart" will not change those two facts. Have a nice day.

It's also funny to note your attack on the Boston Whaler example I gave. You did not attack the facts but tried to sluff it off as "that's so eighty's" HaHaHa. I've proven my point now so you go on the attack. Smooth. . . LOL

[Arctic Dave]

43. Slow, hardly.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_top_speed_of_a_ca...

Large ship move faster in open ocean because they are able "plow" through the surface of the ocean (think aircraft carrier). Small ship cannot do this, they have to travel along more surface area.
When at high speeds small boats have less stablity then large ships, making them inappropriate platforms for shooting. Even if they are the unsinkable Boston Whaler. What is the Somali version of that anyways?

[Hoopla Phil]

44. Yep that average of 20 knots is blazing fast ain't it. LOL

You cannot alter the facts as much as you say it is so. HaHaHa.

[Arctic Dave]

45. For a ship that can be 3 football fields long or more, it is technical marvel.

I think that part will be lost on you.

However I encourage you to find out firsthand. Catch a flight the nearest port. See if you can get a trip on an ocean freighter and see what it can do. Next get any small skiff and head to open water. See if you can tell the difference.
Rerport back with your info so you can school me with you real life knowledge.

[Hoopla Phil]

47. Now your posts are getting comical.

?w=500&h=311

I bet it can go faster than the 10 knots you "guessed" earlier. LOL

Face the facts. The pirate boats are faster than the cargo ships. Plain and simple.

[Arctic Dave]

50. An unidentified boat, umm, ok, you win.

I can totally see how the overtook a the ship. I don't see the AKs a wagging. Are they next to the life vest?

Were is a cargo ship at full speed?

[Hoopla Phil]

51. LOL. Deni the facts all you want but the facts are the facts.

The boats that the Somali pirates use are indeed faster than the cargo ships they hijack. OH, you know, you COULD follow the link and read the article if you want to. I guess it's just better to keep your fingers in your ears and sing lalalalalal.

So tell me again how a ship that has a slower speed than the pirate boats out runs the pirate boats. LOL.

[AtheistCrusader]

55. Some of the pirate vessels are faster.

Some are not, and have to manage to intercept from ahead, or go home empty handed. That much has been clearly reported by many news sources. In high seas, they can be battered apart, or unable to pursue anything in a straight line. Some of these pirate vessels never make it back to port at all. Some are slow, diesel, littoral fishing vessels, often stolen from poor, struggling fishermen or fleets.

We're talking about a spectrum of ships, some able, some not, some in calm seas, some not. So technically, depending on all the factors involved, you are both correct. No reason to fight guys, take a deep breath.

[bkkyosemite]

32. You just have to talk to me the way you do. No bubble here but beginning

to wonder bout you.

[bossy22]

12. we are not talking about

artillery but handheld weapons- like a shotgun

[AtheistCrusader]

52. BLOOD IN THE OCEANS, OK CORRAL ON THE HIGH SEAS AAAAAAAA

Hyperbole aside, there are some practical reasons you can't do this. In order for merchant ships to have free passage through other nations waters, the ship must be unarmed. I don't mean just deck guns, but even personal armaments are no-go. Otherwise you'll spend a lot of time filling out forms, extra paperwork, submitting to shipwide searches that can take weeks, having to queue up and wait for months for harbor inspections, etc.

The port of destination pretty much sets the rules, and hundreds of international ports would be basically closed off to you immediately, if your merchant ship carried any firearms at all. Hence the water cannons, and other non-firearm countermeasures.

[spin]

5. Gun Free Zones attract criminals. (n/t)

[meegbear]

6. I'm surprised they aren't ...

I figured out in international waters, they would be.

[hellbound-liberal]

7. I would think using something like this would make the NEXT group of pirates think twice

before attacking with AK-47s, which seems to be their current MO.

[bkkyosemite]

8. I totally agree but was slammed for the same idea in another post.

This is outrageous that they have let this go on for so long without fully securing their ships with armor and guards. They can see that a pirate ship is approaching from a long distance. Use the same weapons the Pirates use and more if it is needed. They will soon get the message and back off. If not they are really crazy.

[Abq_Sarah]

9. There are many ports

That will not allow an armed ship to enter for fear of piracy or attack. I imagine they could get around the restrictions by having an unarmed security force and stock things that could easily be turned into weapons. A couple of Molotov cocktails would probably serve as a deterrent to a speedboat trying to board a freighter.

[yay]

15. Does Less-than-leathal count as being armed?

Plenty of less-than-lethal options exists, but do they count as being "armed"?

Only problem is most of them are short range...

[Abq_Sarah]

17. I can't see how they would be considered

"Armed" in the absence of firearms.

[Hoopla Phil]

21. Armed without arms. That's kinda funny if you think about it.

[yay]

48. Well I know some countries

Consider air rifles or even sling shots to be "firearms".

Personaly I say give the crew a couple people trained to use guns as apart of their crew.

[Hoopla Phil]

20. Nope. We've learned today that in this situation the pirates did in fact

evade the less lethal defenses that the crew had used. Some 50s or even 20mm for and aft would be much better at defending the ship.

[NewMoonTherian]

26. From what I heard...

The ship was equipped with water cannon(s) and some kind of sonic device. Never heard whether the crew actually employed them.

[Hoopla Phil]

29. Yes they did. I heard on the TV news that they had been fighting

the pirates for over 3 hours using the "less lethal" devises. Eventually the pirates did get through. Should have had 20mm cannons rather than water cannons.

[NewMoonTherian]

58. Aye to that.

Since posting this I heard an interview with a representative for the shipping company. He described the "sonic weapon" as "an incredible loud speaker". I couldn't shake the notion we're arming our freighters with Whitesnake surplus.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Compressed air harpoon guns.

You'd save money by not even bothering with the cable.

[Turbineguy]

11. It's been under discussion for years.

so far, no.

[Ian David]

13. We could just equip all our vessels with Corbomite devices. n/t

[X_Digger]

46. LOL!! n/t

[peace13]

14. I would say that security is a cost of doing business

and that the shipping companies need to invest in some.

[ThirdWorldJohn]

16. ABC News why ships are unarmed

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=12903392&ch=4226714&src=news>ABC video, Why shipa are traveling without arms aboard

[bossy22]

23. i find some of those reasons silly

a right of innocent passage? Pirates arent going to adhere to that

I understand international concern but we arent talking about heavy munitions and military grade ship to ship weapons here....we are talking about a few shotguns or something to that effect.
something like in this link below
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_marine_magnum.asp

I believe we could change around some international laws to allow this...especially in pirate hot spots

[krispos42]

36. I figure there are two routes to go with this

One is regular small-arms, such as rifles, shotguns, and handguns.


The problem with this is that the crews are small and the ships are huge. The pirate can attack at any point on the sides of the vessel... this can be a couple of thousand feet long. Their motorboats move at 30 knots, perhaps, enabling them to dash to different sections of the gunwale while the crew is running around trying to get in position.

However a medium-caliber rifle with a scope, an M14 or equivilant, could probably hit a motorboat at a half-mile or more. Strategically places, a half-dozen crew with rifles could cover the entire perimeter of the ship, raining bullets on approaching or boarding speedboats. I don't see many pirates trying to shimmy 60 feet up a rope while two crewmen play target practice on him with .30-caliber rifles.

The downside is that trying to hit a pirate under those conditions would be difficult, and damage to the speedboat would likely be minimal. And of course, return fire is likely.




I think the best solution (which might not be legally possible) would be TOW or similar anti-tank missiles. Wire-guided by the operator, a range in excess of 2 miles, and a long enough flight time for the pirate to either turn tail or jump off the boat before the warhead impacts. I don't think they could dodge as long as the operator did his job.

A mount each in the bow and the stern would provide 360º protection at ranges far beyond that of an RPG or AK-47.

[Pullo]

49. Somali pirates vow retaliation

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5juHtLRZ1oWZW0i4NkwPI3LWc4oPQD97H93D81

Merchant ship crews had better start packing...

[bossy22]

53. maybe we should listen to this guy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/12/AR2009041202262.html

[umccoyw]

54. i agree

i also agree that that crews on merchant ships should be able to carry firearms to protect themselves. Like anyone will tell you in the security and anti terrorism field is that you dont want to be a soft target because criminals and terrorists will go after the easiest target