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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:33 PM
Original message
Fear and Greed Have Sales of Guns and Ammo Shooting Up
APRIL 16, 2009

Fear and Greed Have Sales of Guns and Ammo Shooting Up
Buyers Foresee Anti-Weapon Legislation; Collectors Hope to Get Bang for Their Bucks
By ALEX ROTH and BETSY MCKAY
WSJ

FAYETTEVILLE, Ga. -- The way Jay Chambers sees it, the semiautomatic weapons in his firearm collection might be the most promising investment in his financial portfolio. Like many gun enthusiasts, Mr. Chambers, a manager for a door wholesaler here, believes President Barack Obama and the Democrats in Congress soon will reimpose a version of an expired federal ban on the sale of so-called assault weapons. If such a law passes, he figures his collection -- enough guns, ammo magazines and weapon parts to assemble about 30 AK-47s, AR-15s and other semiautomatic rifles -- could triple in value. Purchases of guns and ammunition are surging across the country. Nearly four million background checks -- a key measure of sales because they are required at the purchase of a gun from a federally licensed seller -- were performed in the first three months of 2009. That is a 27% increase over the same period a year earlier, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. No one knows exactly what is behind the gun-buying craze. Some buyers say they are stocking up for themselves in anticipation of new gun-control laws, while others say they're worried about deteriorating public safety as the economy worsens.

But it's also clear that part of the gun-buying rally is driven by people like Mr. Chambers who are buying weapons the way others invest in a hot stock. The buying is pumping up prices. Many popular models of guns are back-ordered for a year or more. Some manufacturers are operating plants 24 hours a day. According to the 2009 edition of the Blue Book of Gun Values, the average price of European-made AK-47s -- the famous Soviet-era military weapon now made in several countries -- doubled from $350 last September to more than $700 by the end of 2008.

(snip)

Many gun dealers are fanning the fear on the Internet and in other advertising that President Obama will try to restrict the Second Amendment right to bear arms -- despite signs that major changes in federal weapons regulations are unlikely. The White House says there are no imminent plans to reinstate the federal assault-weapons ban. "The president supports the Second Amendment and respects the tradition of gun ownership in this country," a White House spokesman said. Restoring the ban on assault weapons has limited support in Congress, even among Democrats. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi have signaled reluctance in recent weeks to renewing the ban. During the federal ban between 1994 and 2004, the value of popular firearms such as the AR-15 semiautomatic rifle -- a civilian version of the M-16 used by the military -- soared. During that time, it was illegal to manufacture weapons in the banned categories, but weapons already in circulation could be resold. The law also prohibited stores from selling ammunition magazines able to hold more than 10 rounds.

(snip)

Of course, like all investments, guns do fluctuate in value. Weapons whose prices rose during the previous ban fell once it was lifted. "People I know in 2000 were buying Colts for $2,300 or $2,400," says Dennis Williams, the owner of Guns & Leather Inc. in Greenbrier, Tenn. "Now you can buy a new Colt for $1,400." That the bubble could burst doesn't appear to be fazing buyers. "Right now even used semiautomatic rifles are selling like crazy," says Lawrence Keane, senior vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which represents manufacturers and retailers.

(snip)

Mr. Chambers, the door salesman, figures he has spent $40,000 to $50,000 collecting guns and ammunition over the years. He says his 401(k) has been decimated in recent months. Real-estate values in his neighborhood have plummeted. His former employer went out of business. Medical benefits at his new job cost "twice as much and aren't as good." He's worried about supporting his wife and two young children. Even without a new assault-weapons ban, he figures he could sell his entire collection at current market rates and live off the proceeds for a year. "They'll be worth what I paid for them at least," he said. "I look at it as a savings account."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123984046627223159.html (subscription)
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Really? What a sad statistic
Because the only thing that ammo is used for is killing.

I guess people could be doing some hunting, but I doubt there has a been a big increase with hunter & hunting.

Otherwise it is for killing.
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rwheeler31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. These people will not learn, why?
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That's far from true.
People forget completely about recreational target shooting as well as competitive shooting. In fact, almost none of the ammunition sold for use is ever going to be fired at a living thing, let alone a person.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Ok. Maybe target shooting is going up.
I guess the hobby has caught on
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Well this much I can tell you: the murder rate has plummeted since 1992.
So the ammo isn't being expended on people.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Maybe it is being stored for a rainy day
For a target shooting competition or something.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. When I used to target shoot once a week...
If I found ammo on sale I would sometimes buy thousands of rounds. Sometimes over 10,000 rounds. That would last me a couple of months.

David
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Then there must be an increase in target shooting
I'm surprised USA Today hasn't featured an Infographic about it.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. That was over 12 years ago, I lived about 3 miles from the range.
Now I live about 30 miles from the range. Besides I'll be able to shoot when I'm old, I probably won't be able to golf. At least not at the level that I want to. Now I live 3 miles from the driving range so I hit 3000 golf balls a week. I can't figure out which one is cheaper.

David
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. It is hoarding.
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 10:14 AM by Tim01
Every other week another member of the current administration talks about some other kind of ban on guns and or ammo. The previous ban showed us they are serious about banning stuff. So the panic buying is going on and on and on. When people find some ammo on the shelf at the store they buy all that is there. As a result of the first AWB, there are now people putting away rifles, handguns and ammo. People who never had any intention of having that stuff before the first AWB.
I have 3 rifles I never figured I had any use for before the first AWB. One of those I have never even fired.

Obama, Clinton, Holder, Kerry, Pelosi, Feinstein. These people are responsible for the sales of more guns and ammo than anybody ever thought was realistic. Especially the gun guys.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Total B.S! When I was shooting USPSA I went through 1000 rds a month min.
Learn a little about a subject before you spout off will ya?
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. All I've killed is a bunch a cardboard & steel
Edited on Thu Apr-16-09 12:51 PM by RamboLiberal
And I've over the past 10+ years have probably put over 100,000+ rounds through my handguns.

From March - October I go through 100 - 500 rounds most weekends in competition shooting.

Ammo is for killing is a dumbass statement.

I'm glad I have a decent stock of ammo cause with the damn hoarders it is tough to get FMJ 9mm ammo for target shooting.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. A couple corrections.
"the average price of European-made AK-47s -- the famous Soviet-era military weapon now made in several countries"

Those are "Soviet era military weapons" the way my cheap watch is a Rolex. They're semi-auto knockoffs for the civilian market. Think "overpriced, underpowered deer rifle."

"During that time, it was illegal to manufacture weapons in the banned categories, but weapons already in circulation could be resold."

No. It was illegal to manufacture or import weapons with certain cosmetic features like flash suppressors and bayonet lugs.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm waiting for the bubble to burst...
While I think I probably could use a bit more ammo, so I can have some more range time to practice, I'm not willing to pay jacked up prices for them, so I just buy it when I can find it in stock at a reasonable price.
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yay Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. I'll just backorder it online
Still got to wait, still the same price, may as well get in line.
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well, at least this article included the collector/investor aspect, otherwise..same old same old.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 11:59 PM by jmg257
'Gun sales up, & ammo scarce' and this just in...'Elvis is still dead'.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. How many times has this been posted here this week? 10
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
14. great...now wall street types will contribute to mass panic buying

and guns and ammo shortages.

that's just great.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yesterday.
I have been trying to secure enough ammo for my department's qualification, which is tonight. Since I carry my personal handgun as a duty weapon I am expected to supply my own ammo. In normal times this is no big deal.

My local gun shop has been trying to get my order filled for three weeks. No luck. So last night after work I have to try the last resort, WalMart. I called them and they said "no problem we'll have it ready for you at 4:30". I arrived at the store only to be told that a gentleman had walked in and bought every box of every pistol caliber they had on the shelves. Apparently, he had bullied one of the workers into also selling him my little stash under the counter. This character hits the store twice a day and cleans them out every chance he gets. The guy who I spoke to on the phone was a bit aggravated and took it out on me for a minute until it sunk in with him "why" I needed the ammo. We both engaged in a bit of mutual grumbling about ammo hoarders and called it good.

I've never seen it this bad. The good news is I did a bit of scrounging and came up with enough rounds to shoot tonight but it's a nasty looking mix of junk and leftovers. Think of it as having to toss the couch cushions for enough ammo. No, I don't leave rounds lying about in the furniture but there are a couple of ammo cans down in my shop that I toss loose stuff into rather than letting it get scattered.

The good news is I found 210 rounds of 5.56 that I didn't even realize I had. That stuff is like gold these days.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
17. So much bullshit being flung around every day
...During that time, it was illegal to manufacture weapons in the banned categories...

That statement is very misleading.

Banned rifle during the ban:



Legal rifle during the ban:

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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Just to add a little more clarity
For a few hundred dollars and maybe a trip to a gunsmith the second rifle could have all the banned features installed. Making it basically the same as the first rifle pictured.

This would have no affect on the the basic function of the rifle, the rate of fire, or size of magazine it could hold.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. But it would have increased the "scariness factor" by 124%.
Who needs a rifle 124% scarier than their neighbor? (/sarcasm)
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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Dear Gwad..
i had no idea I was inflicting that much scary on the world. They should pass some law to make people paint there scary guns soothing colors, so as not to scare the children. Maybe blue.

(yeah that is sarcasm)
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Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. This one is 200% less scary
California-legal AR-15




This one makes Sen. Feinstein feel better.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. That's a BFR
Barbie's First Rifle.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. but...........
After the ban went into effect, installing pre-ban features on a post-ban gun was not only illegal, but inadvisable as the ATF had serial number records from the manufacturer's Form 1's for domestic production guns.

While guns produced after the ban's effective date, i.e., September 13, 1994. were supposed to be marked "Law Enforcement Only" or "Export Only" the ATF advised that neither the absence of those markings nor the gun's serial number could be relied upon to ensure the gun's legal status. Despite the fact that in most other cases, the receiver itself is classed as a firearm by the ATF, for the purposes of the AWB, if a "pre-ban" receiver had not assembled into a complete gun prior to the effective date, it was forever ineligible.

The ATF used to advise that mere possession of the parts that could be assembled into an illegal configuration was sufficient to violate the ban. Their contention was that someone who owned both a pre-ban and post-ban version of the same gun could be prosecuted if swapping parts between the guns resulted an illegal configuration, even if he had never done so.
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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. All true..
you will get no argument from me.

The ATF has a similar interpretation on NFA items, and I am inclined to follow their interpretations. Being on the wrong side of the ATF is not a place I would like to be.

I was just trying to clarify for anyone who is not familiar with the firearms pictured that they are basically the exact same rifle with different trim. That no matter what external parts you take off or put on they both function the same way.
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. Hell
Can't find bulk 17hmr I am 1500 rounds shy of the 2k I need for p-dog evey place is out online I wish I had the stuff to make rimfire
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yay Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. I know a place.
I know a place called hooked on toys in wenatcy that has CCI .17 hmr. I don't know if they ship but I could get the number for you.
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Thanks
Edited on Fri Apr-17-09 01:50 AM by dashrif
all my gun likes to shoot is Hornady. I know I know CCI makes all of them and Hornady makes the lead but it's the difference of a dime or a half dollar at a 100 yards. But I will keep it in mind if mid south or wholesale hunter don't get any in by the first.

Edit: for my nonspelling ass


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yay Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. I'll call
See if they have any hornady. I just remember seeing CCI in passing.
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