Here we go again - five dead in Maryland

[malaise]

Man, woman and three children.
http://www.wbaltv.com/cnn-news/19217140/detail.html

MIDDLETOWN, Md. -- At least five people are dead after relatives found them in a Middletown home, reported WBAL-TV.

Frederick County deputies said that caller told police that they found five bodies in a home in the first block of Washington Street on Saturday morning.

When deputies went to the scene at about 9:09 a.m., they found the bodies inside the residence.

Investigators said it’s believed that the victims were all family members.

The identities of the victims and their cause of death have not been released.
-----------------
I'm betting that the cause of death was murder/suicide by gun(s).
Let's see how quickly the gun supporters swarm this thread.

[The Straight Story]

1. Didn't some lady drown her kids some years back?

Turned out it was not the tub's fault, or even hers (her husband was a fundie, so he got the blame).

Point is, folks kill family members with or without guns.

But is easier to blame a piece of metal than try and fix the bigger problems in society.

[TZ]

3. And it's a hell of a lot easier to kill multiple people

Quickly with a gun than by any other means . There is very real reasons why they don't see this as much in Europe/Canada as we do here . There are other reasons too but hey..who am I into interfere with your god given right to kill...:sarcasm:

[The Straight Story]

5. actually, a bomb kills more people more quickly

And so does using a plane. :)

Lots of people have or fly planes, but don't use them to harm other people.

Come to think of it, millions own guns too, and most don't use them to harm other people.

The common thread between using a knife, gun, bomb, gun to harm others is the people that use those things to do so.

But I guess if it makes people feel good they can make some more laws. Or they can actually take some time and figure out what leads people to do such things and try to address those problems.

Guns don't scare me. People do.

[Maccagirl]

8. What is the positive use of a gun?

n/t

[The Straight Story]

9. Hunting, keeping critters from attacking your livestock, defending yourself

target shooting, killing space aliens when they attack the earth, opening a beer can, being able to kill a spider without having to get too close to it, celebrating new year, making the talking heads on tv shut up by shooting the tv, the list goes on and on.

[Missy Vixen]

15. LOLLMAOROTFLPIMP, guy

>target shooting, killing space aliens when they attack the earth, opening a beer can, being able to kill a spider without having to get too close to it, celebrating new year, making the talking heads on tv shut up by shooting the tv, the list goes on and on.<

The fact remains that a gun is manufactured for one purpose: Killing something. It's not a toy. That "target practice" excuse comes up every time one of these threads are posted, and it doesn't wash. After all, people shoot each other at the gun range, don't they? If you all think citing Susan Smith is relevant, well, hell, I'll haul out the article from last month detailing the woman who shot herself and her son to death at a shooting range.

I hate to break it to you, but your fun and oh-so-funny list? "Celebrating New Year"? Other people die when some dumbass shoots into the air at midnight. Of course, I'm sure that's lost on the gun nuts. After all, what could be more of an honor than being shot to death with their gun? :sarcasm:

[FailureToCommunicate]

17. You, sir, are so full of wrong, you should go haunt some other web site. Lets check the real

world, where most of us live: 30,000 deaths annually from guns. Not knives, baseball bats, bathtubs or Aliens. (Or self defense for that matter, despite what you may hear from the NRA cause they would have no reason to twist the truth.)
About 3 or 4 killed by guns per hour on an average day, (which it would not be for you or your family if they were part of the gun deaths THAT day.)

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/pub-res/firarmsu....

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weap...

[malaise]

23. Guns account for 75% of murders in Jamaica

(1,500 last year; 1600 plus the year before). We don't make guns. We have to protect the US and have all sorts of equipment to prevent ganja and others drugs heading to the US but who is protecting us from the guns that are shipped from the US.

Guns kill - efuggingnough!!!

[doctor jazz]

33. Jamaica is virtually a 'gun free zone'

just like Virginia Tech. Not possible to have murders with guns where there aren't any.

[ben_jenne]

46. Isn't it against the law

to use a gun to kill someone in Jamaica? Maybe it should be if it already isn't, that might help.

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. They get full-auto AKs from a country that doesn't make them?

Is there a secret Kalashnikov plant in Nebraska or Texas that we don't know about?

The nearest source of AKs to Jamaica is a plant in Venezuela, where they are built under license.

Maybe you could ask "Friend of the Worker" Chavez where exactly the output of his rifle factory goes...

[The Straight Story]

25. From guns?

Or from people using guns?

30,000 deaths and you don't think the people using the guns have issues that we should be working on fixing? How many guns are there in the US anyway? 80 Million or more?

How come there aren't that many people killed each year from them? Because guns are tools and MOST people use them responsibly.

Some don't, and the problem is those people, not the methods they use.

My solution - get rid of poverty, health care (and mental health care) for all.

Oh, and in how many of those gun deaths you cited was alcohol/drugs a factor? Alcohol is a huge problem that leads to a slew of deaths and injuries. What should we do about that?

[hack89]

28. Don't forget that half of those deaths were suicides. nt

[The Straight Story]

31. Which would never had happened if we didn't have guns

Well, according to some people anyway.

Kind of like saying "so and so was killed by an SUV". Get rid of SUV's and no one will be hurt by them. They will still be hurt by other things (or rather, people using those things) but people will feel good....

[Crunchy Frog]

38. In Britain the suicide rate dropped dramatically

once the gas ovens were replaced. Apparently, the availability of a quick and easy suicide method lying around the home really does make it more likely. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92319314

[Crunchy Frog]

37. All we have to do is to fix all of our social problems and every individuals

psychological problems, and then there won't be anymore gun fatalities.

[yay]

56. Add a 2 too that figure.

There are about 280-290 million guns in this country, about 80 million owners.

[hack89]

27. Your knives and baseball comment brings up an interesting point concerning the AWB

knives and blunt objects account for about a quarter of all murders (about 4000 deaths). Rifles and shotguns(including assault weapons) account for 3 percent (about 450 deaths).

Since handguns are the obvious problem (actually, criminals using handguns are the real problem) why does the gun control movement spend so much time and expect Obama to spend precious political capital on legislation(the AWB) that will have such a marginal impact on public safety?

[krispos42]

59. Defensive gun use does not usually entail somebody dying

There are about 200 justifiable homicides a year and about 1.2 million uses of a gun defensively.



A gun "used" in self defense does not have to be discharged and usually isn't.




18k of those deaths are suicides; the suicide rate of the US is a fraction of Western European low-gun-ownership nations.




I don't know about you, but I want to lower the overall homicide rate. Lowering the gun-related homicide rate is itself meaningless without a larger context and overall improvement.

The UK has this problem. Gun homicides at or near record lows, total homicides at or near record highs.

[doctor jazz]

14. How about stopping a thug from breaking into your home?

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10188544

[spin]

50. Hunting, target shooting, collecting and self defense....

Hunting:

The NSSF estimates that there are 20.6 million active hunters in the United States. Active hunters are defined as having hunted more than once in the past year. These hunters are the economic strong-arm of the industry. (National Sporting Goods Association, 2004 - a nationwide survey of persons 7 years old and older who had participated more than once in the past year.)
http://www.nssf.org/IndustryResearch/FAQ-ans.cfm?Qno=02&AoI=generic

I live in one of the poorest counties in the United States. Many people here hunt deer and hog to provide their families with high quality meat which is far better than the cheap meat they could afford at the grocery store.

Target shooting:

More than 19 million Americans safely participate in target shooting. Their numbers break out into subsets of people who enjoy shooting handguns, shotguns and rifles. Add special-interest shooters such as muzzleloader enthusiasts, and the total number of active shooters jumps even higher! Target shooting varies from leisurely hobbies to competitive local leagues and from collegiate athletics to the world stage of the Olympic games.
http://www.nssf.org/shooting/index.cfm?AoI=shooting

Collecting firearms:

I was unable to find an estimate of the total number of firearms collectors in the United States, however I did find some info on collectors in Ohio.

Now in its 72nd year, the 15,000 member Ohio Gun Collectors Association is faced with continuing challenges in terms of gun freedoms, shifting demographics and other market forces, and requires more and more increased leadership and experience within the ranks of its officers, directors and committee chairmen. Long time life member Frank S. Hodges, Jr. serves as our current president. Directors are elected from the membership and provide leadership to over ten different committees. An active Past Presidents Council helps the organization keep its iron sites on founding principles.
http://www.ogca.com/History.htm

Self defense:

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

I hope this answers your question.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. Bombs aren't nearly so convenient. For ease of use, I'll stick with guns.

:)

[paulsby]

51. then explain switzerland

they have metric assloads of guns

and fwiw, suicide is much more common in many other countries. japan and sweden both have much higher suicide rates. w/o guns.

[sandnsea]

10. And the people wanted to fry her

instead of fixing the bigger problems in society. That's where crazy people get the idea that killing is the answer to problems in the first place. And who is the biggest proponent of death as a solution? Why the gun nuts. And that's the problem with them. If they wanted to fix the bigger problems in society, they'd realize they don't need their stupid fucking guns to do it.

[The Straight Story]

12. I think you mixed up gun nuts with republicans there

:)

[Paladin]

19. The Overwhelming Majority Of Gun Nuts ARE Republican (n/t)

[X_Digger]

34. Actually, it's 50/50.. Next? n/t

[Iktomiwicasa]

44. Since roughly half of American

gun owners are Democrats, I call bullshit on your claim, as usual :)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. The Overwhelming majority of idiots make statements like that.

[doctor jazz]

13. Do you admit the existence of responsible gun owners?

If so, how are they different from "gun nuts" (whatever that is)? Is it like we can't mention fat people unless they're teabaggers?

[sandnsea]

20. None in the gun forum

They always say they're responsible, until it comes time to talk about responsible legislation or helpful changes in attitude - and then they're back posting their rah-rah shoot 'em ups.

[doctor jazz]

22. Would you consider answering the question?

That's a pretty broad brush you've used there.
What -specifically- would be your preferred 'solution'? For instance what would be responsible legislation, to you?

[sandnsea]

24. No, it's a very narrow brush

And here we go... "what would be responsible legislation".

Oh let me see, 5 cartridge clips.

Come on now, show me how reasonable you are.

[The Straight Story]

32. Responsible legislation: Make it illegal to harm others

And people will obey the law. See how simple it is?

Make more gun laws and people will obey them too.

Except the people who don't care about laws. Which are the people we are afraid of already.

I don't fear guns anymore than I do cars. It is the people behind them that worry me.

We need to address those issues which cause people to harm others in the first place. And it won't matter whether they have a knife, gun, car, plane, whatever because they won't want to harm others in the first place.

Keep thinking guns are the problem if you want. It does not make it so though.

[Iktomiwicasa]

41. why are

5 round magazines more *responsible* than 10 round magazines?

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. "Reasonable" = "do what I think you should do"

Frankly, you need to convince us, and not the other way around.

We have recent legislative history, the Constitution of the United States, and the Supreme Court on our side,
as well as a majority in Congress, thanks to pro-Second Amendment Democrats.

Trying to pass some BS law and hand the country back to the Republicans as a result?
Not if we can help it!

People like you enabled the Democratic Leadership Council/Third Way Democrats to lose Congress in 1996
because you liked what they said about gun control so much you ignored what else they were doing.

How much of Dianne Feinstein's corporatism did you let slide because she had the 'correct' line on gun control?

Bush tapped *our* phones and Internet connections without warrants because AQ uses telecommunications.
Was that 'reasonable'?

[rl6214]

62. Five rounds only

Would make most revolvers illegal.

[X_Digger]

36. That word.. I do not think it means what you think it means..

"responsible" legislation- legislation that actually has a chance of doing something? Find me a piece of legislation that magically makes all those >5 round magazines suddenly disappear. (from criminal as well as law-abiding hands)

Here's a long but good read about why asinine magazine restrictions are about as relevant as a fart in a thunderstorm:
http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf

"helpful changes in attitude"? As in "you should think like I do"? No thanks. It's up to you to show a proposed benefit to legislation, it's not up to use to suddenly be won over by emotional twaddle.

[Iktomiwicasa]

40. First, show us

the gun owners in the DU guns forum that use their guns in a criminal manner, and secondly please show us some responsible gun control legislation. I'm willing to bet you can't do either :)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. So it's irresponsible to disagree with you? I think Hitler believed that.

[spin]

57. Responsible gun legislation is like pornography...

it's in the eye of the beholder.

The majority of the anti-gun crowd fixates on BANNING. They want "Assault Weapons" banned. They want "Saturday Night Specials" banned. And of course, "Cop Killer Bullets", "Sniper Rifles", "Vest Busters" etc. etc. etc.

And when they find there's little support for banning, they don't bother to look for solutions that will reduce the misuse of firearms.

The gun supporters use logic and statistics to back up their arguments. The anti-gun crowd uses emotion and tired, worn out and totally false statements like "The fact remains that a gun is manufactured for one purpose: Killing something."

It's hard for the pro-gun people to have a decent discussion with the anti-gun individuals as the gun grabbers have very little knowledge of firearms and absolutely no desire to educate themselves. They are definitely blinded by emotion.

Note that there are a few individuals who, while they are not pro-gun, are interested in finding a solution to the problems created by the misuse of firearms in our country. These rare posters seem to realize that "feel good" laws only make the politicians we elect look like they are actually doing something.

The "assault weapons" ban which so many of the gun control crowd wants desperately to reinstate was an outstanding example of a "feel good" law. It accomplished absolutely nothing except to gain votes for Republicans. In fact in increased the popularity and the sale of the very weapons it was supposed to ban.

Now the mere rumors of draconian gun laws are causing all types of firearms and ammo to fly off dealers' shelves. The occasional anti-gun statements by Democrats have been the best thing to happen to the firearms industry in years.

While I am definitely pro-gun, I find the tremendous increase in the sale of firearms and ammo disturbing if for not any other reason than I can see a lot of gun owners showing up at the polls to vote pro-gun Republicans into office at the midterm elections. I also fear that Obama might lose to some pro-gun candidate like Sarah Palin in the next Presidential election. It will take more than four years to straighten out the mess that Bush left behind.

[JeanGrey]

16. He should've HAD the blame and her family too. He kept on

having kids with her knowing she was off her rocker. Andrea Yates. And then there was Susan Smith who strapped her babies into their carseats and drowned them like rats for a man.

[MADem]

21. Oh, ya never know!

It coulda been the Transformer Toilet telling her what to do....

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Andrea Yates' husband was just as responsible for those murders as she was

She had chronic post partum depression and he wanted more kids. He knew she was sick and he left his children in her care.

Yes she killed her children but it could have been prevented.

This is not a good comparison at all.

[sandnsea]

2. This is probably domestic violence

And these shootings happen all the time. There is a federal law that says anyone convicted of domestic violence cannot own a gun. We need to make sure states don't circumvent these laws. But the real problem here is domestic violence, and a culture that says you beat up or kill whoever pisses you off.

[Hoopla Phil]

48. And yet police are exempted from that law. Why?

[paulsby]

52. no, they are not

in fact the law has been used ex post facto on cops (cops who plead guilty to domestic violence BEFORE the VAWA was passed were LATER stripped of their guns. not technically ex post facto PUNISHMENT since it is deemed administrative not punitive).

you are simply wrong.

been a cop a long time. seen cops subject to the VAWA just like civilians.

[dashrif]

60. Uh

"Civilians" I don't like when police use that word. I am a citizen of the United States as are you, not a civilian of the united states. Civilian is defined in the Geneva Conventions as a person who is not a member of his/her country's armed forces in the context of R.O.E or R.O.W . That was until it was basterdized to also meen nonpolice.

And I mean no ill toward you god bless you for stepping up and taking on that job and I know it's hard not to call fellow citizens, civilians when that's all you hear day one from the acadamey.

Just think about it for me please thank you. :)

[paulsby]

65. we've had this semantical wank before

civilians in the context of military non-military is ONE distinction.

there are others. try a dictionary.

by some definitions, there is a valid distinction between civilians and cops.

i am not using the geneva conventions definition, since we are not discussing issues of war, but issues of internal politics.

i understand your point, but to me it's a semantical wank.

cops swear an oath. civilians don't, so i think there is some validity to the distinction

[polmaven]

4. If it is murder/suicide,

how tragic. I really do not understand why an alleged adult, if he/she wants to die, thinks the rest of the family has to come with him/her. How incredibly egotistical.

[Arugula Latte]

6. What. The. Hell.

This country is just sick beyond measure.

[sixmile]

7. Money or Love?

Are the only things we kill for.

[Faygo Kid]

11. Wow. Middletown is a very historic town, and been there many times.

Stunning. Beautiful area, just north and west of Frederick.

[arcadian]

30. I've been there too.

It is beautiful. Piedmont area Maryland town, like Frederick or Sharpsburg. This is tragic.

[bluestateguy]

29. I am a gun supporter, but plan to wait for the facts of the case

which is what I suggest you do too.

[Hoopla Phil]

39. That may be wise. This little tidbit of the article

"The identities of the victims and their cause of death have not been released."


I may yet come out that everyone was killed me a means other than firearm. I too will wait and see.

[malaise]

49. Well here's the report - looks like he used both knives

and a gun.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/18/maryland.family.shot/
<snip>
A Maryland man apparently killed his wife and three young children, then shot and killed himself at the foot of the bed where his wife and 2-year-old daughter's bodies lay, authorities said Saturday.

Christopher Wood, 34, may have slashed at least some of his family members in the killings in Middletown. Frederick County (Md.) Sheriff Charles Jenkins said some of the victims had "severe lacerations and cut wounds."

"These are horrific incidents," said Jenkins, who said he couldn't remember another homicide in the past 20 years in the small town northwest of Baltimore. "No one should ever have to be exposed to this."

Wood's sons were 5 and 4 years old, authorities said. His wife, Francie Billotti Wood, was 33.

The boys were found in their beds in a single bedroom, the sheriff said. Authorities did not release the names of the children.

[cwydro]

35. Why is this in the gun forum?

CNN is not reporting cause of death yet.

[Iktomiwicasa]

42. Knee jerking

Murder = evil guns for some around here.

[MrPerson]

45. Guns don't kill people..Jagoffs with guns kill people.

[rl6214]

63. Know the facts before you mouth off

they were killed with a knife. Should we ban all knives now?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. Why don't we just blame the murderer instead of guessing about how they did it?

[Iktomiwicasa]

58. Stop making sense!

:)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

61. A wonderful example of knee jerkism.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

64. You were right

They were shot dead. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/18/5-people-found-dead-in-ma_n_188601.html

And I agreed with your post when I first read it.

[bossy22]

66. umm no

well they dont know

"The 33-year-old mother and three children suffered "traumatic cuts" and each also had at least one gunshot wound from a .25-caliber handgun, Frederick County Sheriff Charles Jenkins said. Their precise cause of death wasn't immediately known, and Jenkins declined to say what was used to slash them."

stop the selective reading...we dont know what really killed them, but we do know they were shot and stabbed...it could well be that they were stabbed to death...than shot

[FunkyLeprechaun]

67. Funny

There was indeed a gun used in this homicide. They may very well have survived their stab wounds and this guy thought it'd be better to shoot them. Or he shot them and stabbed them because he was nuts.

The fact of the matter is he used a gun to murder his family. Easy access to a firearm like that makes it easy to murder a family just like that.