How Many More Cops Must Die?

[SteppingRazor]

Maybe it's because it just happened yesterday -- or maybe it's because all the national news networks are currently obsessed with SARS or Avian Flu or Mad Cow Disease or whatever the current potential pandemic that, like all the others, will surely result in the end of civilization as we know it -- but the national news has been missing the story that, here in Florida, we just had a cop-killing that bears eerie similarity to the recent case in Pittsburgh, in which Richard Poplawski allegedly shot and killed three police officers and tried to kill as many as nine others before being arrested. Afterward, much was made of Poplawski's belief that President Obama would soon be taking his guns away.

In Pennsylvania, it began because of dog piss. Here in Florida, it started with a pair of Okaloosa County Sheriff's deputies arriving at a shooting range to arrest a man for domestic violence. According to the Associated Press story, deputies Warren York and Burt Lopez Tasered suspect Joshua Cartwright, who fell to the ground and then came up shooting with a concealed weapon, killing both officers. That led to a car chase, which ended when Cartwright's truck flipped over and Cartwright, a member of the Florida National Guard, burst out of the truck shooting, dying himself after a half-minute gunfight in which more than 60 rounds were fired.

And sure enough, buried in the 12th paragraph of the AP story linked above, is the Okaloosa sheriff's comment that "Cartwright was interested in militia groups and weapons training." When Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano's office put out a report warning of growing "right-wing extremism," she was pilloried in the conservative media. Glenn Beck went totally haywire ... well, more haywire than usual. Michael Savage sued the DHS. It was all good for publicity. But all it did was tacitly tie the kooky ideology espoused by Beck and Savage to the explicitly dangerous actions of men like Poplawski and now, Cartwright.

<snip>

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-sweeney/how-many-more-cops-must-d_b_191894.html

[malaise]

1. Send the link to Rachel and KO

They're keeping tabs.

[baldguy]

2. Cops are expendable.

2nd Amendment Uber Alles

:sarcasm"

[Raskolnik]

11. What an ugly thing to say.

I understand that you think you're clever by posting that "uber alles" nonsense, but its really too clever by 1/2 in stories like this.

[baldguy]

20. Don't blame me - blame the gun worshipers.

[Raskolnik]

21. Yeah, the "gun worshipers" make you post nonsense. There is no end to their power, is there?

Of course, you don't seem to miss an opportunity to use the deaths of innocent people to make a cheap political point, so those mean old "gun worshipers" might not need to prod you too much.

[baldguy]

22. Gun worshipers abdicate their responsibility

By refusing to acknowledge that if they can get guns easily then criminals also can get them easily, then crusade against any reasonable gun control measures - makes it more likely that police officers will be killed.

The GOP, the NRA and the gun worshipers who support them created the conditions which allow innocent people to be murdered so easily in America - I can't help it if you deny the truth and refuse to believe there's no connection.

[Raskolnik]

23. That's right. Those awful, awful "gun worshipers" you've created a caricature of in your own head.

They are an irrational bunch.

[baldguy]

25. Like I said, I can't help it if you deny the truth.

[Raskolnik]

27. So, what laws do you think would have prevented this tragedy? n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

50. The truth is that a CRIMINAL committed murder. Not ever legal gun owner.

[paulsby]

31. if the NRA et al are "gun worshippers"

then NARAL are "abortion worshippers"

same "logic"

i don't worship guns. i respect civil rights.

ALL

OF

THEM

[baldguy]

34. Reducto ad Absurdum

[paulsby]

35. ad hominem

referring to NRA and civil rights supporters as "gun worshippers"

hth

[baldguy]

36. That's no ad hominem, it's simple observation.

And I have directly attacked no individual here. When gun worshipers put their desire for their hobby over the lives & safety of their fellow citizens, I think the term is more than appropriate.

[paulsby]

37. thanks for illustrating and reinforcing my point

hth

[baldguy]

38. Declare victory & withdraw.

Good strategy.

[quickesst]

40. Now you're just talking nonsense....

...and that's being kind. "Gun worshipers". Wonder who the fuck you're talking about here. The nuts who kill cops to avoid arrest, or the hunter who obeys the laws, and respects his weapons. Hard to tell with the "Ban All Guns" crowd. Nonsense worshiping assures they will not win this debate. Thanks.
quickesst

[krispos42]

59. Do you use the same logic with, say, warrantless wiretapping?

"When phone-worshippers put their desire for their hobby over the lives and safety of their fellow citizens..."



Or how about putting metal detectors on every street corner? "When health-worshippers put their desire for their hobby over the lives and safety of their fellow citizens..."



And again... there is no relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates

[Hoopla Phil]

51. It was accurate and correct.

[gorfle]

43. This is the consequence of a free society.

By refusing to acknowledge that if they can get guns easily then criminals also can get them easily, then crusade against any reasonable gun control measures - makes it more likely that police officers will be killed.

I have freely acknowledged this. The consequence of a free society is that people can abuse their freedoms.

If more police officers (or civilians) have to die so that we preserve the right of free people to keep and bear arms, so be it.

The founders were quite aware of crime using weapons, even firearms, even concealed ones. To them, it was more important to have an armed citizenry that can stand up to oppression by force if necessary. Freedom was more important to them than safety. I agree.

[Hoopla Phil]

49. Does that mean that everyone that owns a car shares in the criminal

misuse in a DUI related death? That's some strange logic there.

[SteveM]

57. You really should charge the GOP a fee for your comments. They love 'em (nt)

[krispos42]

58. And if "they" can't get them easily... criminals can still get them easily

And there is no relationship between gun ownership and murder rates. Sorry.





Just because you call them "reasonable" doesn't make it so.

[Hoopla Phil]

48. How about we blame the criminals? I know of NO legal gun owner that

endorses the criminal misuse of firearms. Do you?

[benEzra]

52. You mean like the "gun worshiper" who WROTE the Huffpo piece linked in the OP?

Do you have a script on your computer that posts hateful diatribes in random threads based on "gun" keywords, or do you do this yourself for fun?

And did you read the Huffpo piece? He wasn't talking about taking people's guns, he was talking about the climate of polarization and fear. And your own rhetoric and proposals would only add fuel to that fire, if you had your way.

[paulsby]

30. most cops, myself included

support the 2nd amendment.

civil rights matter

[Hoopla Phil]

47. To hell with civil rights then.

[rl6214]

61. Baldguy

Uber Dipshit

[MercutioATC]

3. WHY would anybody try to arrest anybody at a shooting range???

Jesus, you KNOW they have at least one gun.

[SteppingRazor]

5. Probably because they knew where he was and wanted to get him before he got home again...

and beat his wife some more.

[Ian David]

7. The Neo-Nazis on Stormfront say the cops deserve a Darwin Award. HOWEVER...

... if they were afraid the guy was going to try and kill himself AT THE GUN RANGE, they may have sacrificed themselves trying to save HIS worthless life.

[paulsby]

32. we have to arrest people with guns all the time

i certainly have. it's part of the job.

[MercutioATC]

39. True, but I've worked for law enforcement before.

Given a choice, arresting somebody when they were away from their guns was preferable.

[paulsby]

46. of course that's true nt

[jeepnstein]

45. That's the way it works.

Some times you don't get to pick and choose things like that. You're on the clock, calls are backing up, you need to make this arrest...

The location of the shooting is irrelevant. The shooter would have reacted the same way if they latched onto him at the Quickee Mart. People like that are what makes police work very dangerous at times.

[krispos42]

60. That occured to me as well.

Seems to me the best way to do it would be to stake out the shooting range and do a felony traffic stop. After all, you KNOW he has a gun.

[Tim01]

4. This is the guy who had refused going to his anger management classes.

And he had just been laid off.

The media LOVES reporting on this stuff. And every time the do the nutcases hear about it and say "that's the way I want to go out. The whole world is going to know how I got revenge."

[Ian David]

6. Another Glenn Beck fan who was a member of Stormfront. Big surprise..

Glenn Beck responsible for deaths of two cops in Okaloosa County
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5544268&mesg_id=5544268

[RamboLiberal]

8. Sorry but you didn't prove your Glenn Beck link to this guy

The Pittsburgh shooter did have a link since he posted a Glenn Beck video.

But this guy certainly is a RW nut. According to some posters on Daily Kos he probably has a Stormfront link and that site is busily trying to scrub the evidence.

[Ian David]

9. You have to dril-down to the next link. n/t

[RamboLiberal]

13. I still don't see the Beck reference

Can you point it out?

[Ian David]

15. Stormfront closed his account and started scrubbing Glenn Beck references from his posts.

Expect to see pre-scrub screenshots later.

[Raskolnik]

10. How many more before...what?

What are you saying is going to/should/must happen?

[SteppingRazor]

12. Beats me.

To quote from the last graph of the article:

"I don't know what the answer is. I don't think tighter gun control will do a damn bit of good, and I'm fairly pro-gun myself, a point of contention among my more-liberal friends. But something needs to be done, and soon."

I don't have answers, I'm just sounding the alarm.

[Raskolnik]

16. But sounding the alarm about *what*?

Is there a broad uptick in violence in this country? Do you think that there needs to be more gun control? If you're just upset that two police officers died, I share that feeling more than you know, but it seems like you're asking for some kind of social policy to address this incident.

[SteppingRazor]

17. At the risk of sounding like an NRA flack, I think we need to better enforce the laws we have.

As for the rest, I am a bit concerned at, not just the Cartwright incident, but the combination of it, Poplawski, Adkisson, etc. Like the piece said, when the DHS issued its report on right-wing extremism, conservatives screamed and yelled about it, but at this point, I think the DHS raised some pretty valid points.

[spin]

62. We definitely do need to better enforce existing laws...

the NRA is right on that point. Efforts to do this have shown success, for example Project Exile.

Project Exile was indeed an effective deterrent as shown by a few statistics. In 1997, prior to the
implementation of Project Exile, approximately 85 percent of Richmond’s homicides were committed with
guns, with more than 40 percent of them being drug related and more than 60 percent involving offenders
with prior criminal records. By 1998, when the program had been in operation for ten months, the number
of homicides decreased by 35 percent from the previous year and homicides committed with a firearm were
down by 41 percent. Since the inception of Project Exile, 890 persons have been indicted, 64 percent of
whom were detained without bond. As a result, 1,040 guns have been removed from Richmond’s streets
and kept out of the hands of criminals.2
http://www.policefoundation.org/pdf/preludetopsn.pdf

If the gun control advocates would push for serious programs and the necessary financing to support them, we might see a real drop in gun violence in our country. Instead, they will push for "feel good" legislation such as a reinstatement of the AWB which failed in all aspects. If anything, the previous AWB increased the popularity of "assault weapons" and many people who previously had no interest in owning one were motivated to purchase them.

The DHS report on right-wing extremism really pissed some people off.

Recruiting returning vets: “Rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from military training and combat.”


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/14/homeland-security-report_n_186834.html

One group of people who were very upset was the American Legion.

Secretary Napolitano and National Commander David Rehbein met today at DHS headquarters at the behest of the Commander. Commander Rehbein had been angered by the report's implications and specifically in its use of Oklahoma City terror bomber Timothy McVeigh as an example - the sole example, in fact - of a domestic threat who happened to have served in the military at one time. Secretary Napolitano admitted that the McVeigh reference, in her words, "probably came from me." Ms. Napolitano had once served on the team that prosecuted McVeigh and, she said, that horrific case had sensitized her to the point that the prejudicial reference to the bomber survived in the context of the report. Secretary Napolitano assured Commander Rehbein that "steps had been taken (to assure that) this will never happen again." She said that additional layers of review had now been added to her department's report dissemination process.
http://ourvoice.legion.org/story/1629/dhs-secretary-legion-im-sorry

Our country sends young men, who are often lower middle class or poor, to risk their lives in poorly thought out wars. When they come back from fighting in some hell hole, our country treats them as suspicious and dangerous individuals. Some thanks! (Disclaimer: I am a Vietnam era vet who never had to travel to that war. I remember how those brave individuals who were unfortunate enough to fight in that war were viewed when they returned.)

Your comment:

when the DHS issued its report on right-wing extremism, conservatives screamed and yelled about it, but at this point, I think the DHS raised some pretty valid points.

makes me worry that once again history will repeat itself and another group of soldiers will have to endure unfair prejudice.

[noiretextatique]

14. 4 police officers were recently killed here in oakland, ca

the community is outraged. the killer wasn't a rw wacko though, just a criminal who didn't want to go back to jail.http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-oakland-memorial28-2009mar28,0,1156822.story

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Who should never have had a gun...enforce what we have zealously

ALso be aware that there are those who claim that the "use a gun go to jail" and the escalation to Federal level has a disproportionate impact on minorities

[L0oniX]

19. National Guard ...that says it all.

I'll always remember Kent State ...and ...no I don't forgive them either.

[one-eyed fat man]

65. May, 1970

I was in Cambodia. I remember reading about Kent State in the Stars and Stripes. The general consensus in our platoon was that since 96 guardsmen had fired sixty-seven rounds and only hit 13 people, they weren't trying.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Personally, I'm much more concerned about how many more they will *kill*...

But to each their own.

[Raskolnik]

26. Classy. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

28. (shrug) I agree it's nothing like tasering pregnant women, or diabetics...

But I try.

[Raskolnik]

29. Yup, those dead cops pretty much had it coming, what with trying to arrest a domestic batterer.

The hits just keep coming with you.

[paulsby]

33. lol. what rubbish

next time before i draw my taser, i'll ask the suspect "are you a diabetic or pregnant?"

[moondust]

41. We don't care. Guns make us feel important.

Without that deadly force in our hands we'd feel like wimps.

:sarcasm:

[benEzra]

53. Apparently, smearing people one knows nothing about...

makes some people feel important.

For how those of us here who own guns do actually view ownership:

Thoughts on Gun Ownership

If you're open minded enough to read it, anyway.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. I find it offensive to refer to police officers in that manner.

Almost as offensive as referring to the elderly man confined to a wheelchair who fought in Korea, who carries a firearm for self defense, as a wimp. Of course we know you don't have the stones to actually say that to anyone's face so I guess we should look at the source.


David

[jody]

42. If Cartwright bludgeoned the officers to death with a typewriter, would gun-grabbers want to

ban freedom of speech?

[virginia mountainman]

44. Some in here would.....

Because they are so intellectually honest...

:sarcasm:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. Well the leading killer of cops is heart disease so I guess until we mandate their eating habits...

[spin]

63. Well in my experience, most cops I've known love donuts. (n/t)

[jeepnstein]

66. What's yer point?

We're not allowed to drink beer on duty any more and doughnuts go better with coffee.

[slackmaster]

56. Technically speaking, all of them

Everyone dies.

[yay]

67. Don't lie

Once we ban all guns cops will be immortal.

[billyoc]

64. How many must die? Zero. How many will die? Unknown.

How many will I kill. Zero.

Fuck off.

[jmg257]

68. before?...

[benEzra]

69. Some perspective, in light of some over-the-top comments upthread:

Any officer death is a tragedy, but beware of those looking to sensationalize the issue to push their own pet agenda.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-07-09-police-deaths_N.htm

Police deaths plummet in first half of '08

WASHINGTON — Police officer deaths plunged to their lowest midyear total in 43 years after an unusually deadly year for law enforcement officers, says a report released today by a national police advocacy group. The review reflects declines in all major categories of officer fatalities, including traffic accidents and shootings, the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund found.

Overall deaths declined from 100 to 59 in the first six months of 2007 compared to the same period this year. The number of overall deaths is the lowest since 1965, when 55 officers were killed.

Midyear shooting deaths fell from 38 in 2007 to 21 this year, the lowest number since 1960, when 18 officers were killed by gunfire.

The FBI LEOKA data may be accessed via the FBI Uniform Crime Reports page www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#leoka , and I'll link to the NLEOMF 2008 data below.

From the summaries from the press releases page:

2006: 46 gun-related murders (35 handgun, 8 rifle, 2 shotgun, 1 unknown type)

2007: 55 gun-related murders (38 handgun, 8 rifle, 9 shotgun, 0 unknown type)

BTW, since practically all "assault weapons" would be in the rifle category, it is instructive that the 2006-to-2007 increases were all in in the handgun and shotgun categories; rifle murders didn't increase at all, despite the MSM hysteria in 2007, which the MSM is dusting off and repeating this year.

Link to the NLEOMF 2008 figures here (PDF file).

Preliminary 2009 data here: http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/facts.htm

Again, any death is a tragedy, but we would be better served if people would treat Brady Campaign/MSM pronouncements on the issue with the same skepticism one would use for an NRA press release.