Judge: Man might have been better off pulling trigger at school

[BlueJessamine]

Source: The Tennessean

FRANKLIN — A Williamson County judge sentenced a Fairview man to 20 days in jail for handling a gun on school property -- and said the man might have been better off if he’d pulled the trigger.

On Thursday, Tracy C. Clark, 37, told Circuit Court Judge James G. Martin III, that he’d gotten into a verbal altercation at Westwood Elementary School on Jan. 30, 2006 after his 9-year-old son’s basketball game. Clark said the father of rival player came to his truck and held a knife as if threatening to stab him.

Clark, who had a handgun carry permit, said he told the man he had a gun and pulled a 9 mm handgun from the center console of his pickup truck and put it on the driver’s seat. The gun was not loaded and never left its holster, according to Clark.


“I never brandished it,” Clark said. “I never showed it. I did not know what the best thing to do was.”


Martin said under state law regulating weapons on school property, Clark might have avoided a conviction if he had actually pointed the gun or used it because that would have demonstrated self-defense.


Read more: http://tennessean.com/article/20090521/COUNTY09/90521096/Judge++Man+might+have+been+better+off+pulling+trigger+at+school

---

In 2006, Circuit Court Judge Timothy Easter dismissed the charge against Clark, ruling he acted in self-defense. Last year, the state’s Court of Appeals ruled that Easter erred in dismissing the charge and remanded the case for reinstatement of the indictment.

[Old Codger]

1. What a crock of fesces

If he was in fact threatened with a knife at close range he was actually damn lucky he is still alive, in a lot of states if not most he had every right to nail that guy, even a cop would have pulled his weapon at that point and if the knife wielder made a solid move in his direction would have had every right to shoot, standing rule as far as I am concerned is if the knife is closer that 10 feet and he wants to you are going to get cut , even if you shoot you will probably get cut.

[vadawg]

41. 21 feet is the rule of thumb for a knife wielder, any closer and you cant draw and shoot

yup the guy could have pointed the weapon and even shot the guy and made a reasonable self defense plea.

[Orrex]

2. Has the knife-wielding father been charged with anything?

[LeftinOH]

3. He should -at least- be banned from attending any school sporting events,

school functions, or setting foot on school property *ever again*.

[Orrex]

4. I'd say so, assuming that he brandished the knife as described

But I'd still think he should be charged with a crime.

[Are_grits_groceries]

5. Well this sets a good precedent.

If you have a gun don't just show and tell, you better use it too. Yeeesh!

[Soylent Brice]

6. old saying: "never bring a knife to a gun fight."

new saying: "when you bring a gun to a knife fight at an elementary school, make sure you point it at them."



:crazy:

[X_Digger]

7. Just goes to show..

..that CCW holders aren't 'itching to kill someone' or some other BS.

[joshcryer]

12. The vast majority of CCW "gun use" incidents are in fact *brandishing* and warning.

In fact I fail to see how this judge can say he was not "using the gun in self defense." That's precisely the ideal scenario when it comes to defending yourself with a CCW.

[happyslug]

47. Read the case, a Judge DID rule it was used in Self-defense, then an appeal was taken

On Appeal, The Tennessee Court of Appeals ruled that the dismissal amounted to a Summary Judgment (As that term in used in CIVIL Litigation) and as such NOT permitted in Criminal Actions. Furthermore the Court made a finding of Fact (i.e. Self-defense took place) that is a factual finding reserved to a Jury. Thus this is a case on Remand from appeal. My Reading of the Court of Appeals case was this case should have gone to a Jury.

The Decision of the Court of Appeals that governs this case:
http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/OPINIONS/tcca/PDF/082/clarktopn.pdf

As to this actual sentencing, I have my questions. First this is a sentence AFTER a trial. The Trial may have been with a Jury or without a Jury, the Article does NOT say. Anyone either a Judge or a Jury made a finding of Fact as to the issue of Self-Defense. The 20 day sentence sounds nominal and may be a set up for another appeal to the Court of Appeals, this time on the issue of whether a person banished an unloaded and still in its holster pistol "Self Defense" as that term is used in the State's ban on Firearms on School Property.

[Robb]

8. I could understand this story in Indiana, maybe.

Basketball, you know. Serious business. ;)

[tomm2thumbs]

9. is this judge a Republican who is showing empathy?

[Somawas]

10. Of course. It's compassionate conservativism. nt

[judesedit]

11. BOTH should be charged with reckless endangerment and child abuse

Even if the children were not there at the time. Possibly attempted murder, also. But...mainly the initial knife wielding bully perpetrator should get the heaviest charges. The other guy just responded. I can hear them yelling back and forth at the game now. They should have to go to anger management and parenting classes AND not be allowed to attend their kid's games or be on school grounds. Great examples, aren't they? Reminds me of the cheerleader incident where the mother killed her child's opponent. And we wonder why the kids are so effed up.

[michreject]

33. You win the dumb post of the day award

Be proud.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. No that honor goes to you

The poster made an excellent point.

[X_Digger]

36. The point that a person should be charged with

reckless endangerment and child abuse, possibly attempted murder? That point makes no sense from a legal perspective. There's no prima facie evidence of _any_ of those.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. It is against the law to posses a gun on school property

Doing so places the kids at risk. That's why there is a law prohibiting weapons on school property. So yes, there is reason to file charges. Not attempted murder but definitely endangerment.

[X_Digger]

39. Actually, I'd assume they'd charge him with the actual crime..

Violation of 39-17-1309, which is a Class E Felony.

Unfortunately the original article in the OP appears to be gone, so I don't know if there were actually any kids around. If he had actually used the weapon he would be in better shape, as it's an affirmative defense against 39-17-1309.

[michreject]

40. It's not against the law

In many states it's legal as long as you don't take it out of the vehicle.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. It's against the law here

And no, you can't even have it in your vehicle.

[X_Digger]

44. Even in KS, not straightforward..

The requirements for “no concealed carry” signage also changed with the passage of HB 2528. In order to
bring charges of unlawful concealed carry against a licensee, those properties previously enumerated
under K.S.A. 75-7c10 (schools, bars, churches, school & professional athletic events, churches, etc.) must
now be posted.

And Kansas does make exceptions for parking lots of places that are posted (except schools, I'd imagine)-

Also changed with HB 2528, business owners (both public and private) may continue to post their
buildings to restrict the concealed carry of firearms, but parking lots are no longer allowed to be posted.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/kansas.pdf

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. I teach in MO

[X_Digger]

60. Then you're in for a surprise..

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM

571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

<snip>

(10) Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

[michreject]

52. You can in Mi.

And you can in Tn, when you are dropping off or picking up your kids. This exception allows you to have a gun on school property.

[LostinVA]

46. It is in this state -- no weapons on school grounds -- zero tolerance

Quite a few states have that, and it's not only for students, faculty, and staff -- it's for everyone except law enforcement. As the incident in the OP shows, for good reason.

[X_Digger]

49. Actually..

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_NonresidentConcealed.shtm#Where%20Unlawful%20to%20Carry

§18.2-308.1: School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.

eta: doh, thought you were in VA.

[michreject]

51. You can in Mi.

As long as you have a CCW, which I do.

[LostinVA]

45. Why is it a dumb post?

I thought the poster made a common sense argument.

[michreject]

53. The child abuse slant... nt.

[onehandle]

13. He brought a gun onto elementary school property?

Make it 20 years.

Yes, this is the South and we are stupid conservative dumbfucks, but I don't care.

It is INSANITY to allow guns anywhere near schools under any circumstance.

Make it 20 years. That's my personal opinion.


Now in this particular case? He got off light because we in the South are stupid conservative dumbfucks.

[gorfle]

14. Because schools turn people in to raving lunatics.

It is INSANITY to allow guns anywhere near schools under any circumstance.

Why? If I'm a responsible citizen who has been fingeprinted and passed rigorous background checks and found suitable to hold a CCW permit and carry a concealed weapon down main street surrounded by hundreds of my fellow men, women, and child citizens, what magical thing happens when I walk onto a school campus that somehow makes me dangerous?

Do you have a problem with police officers with guns being on school campuses? Do armed police officers turn into deranged lunatics when they step onto school campuses?

Now in this particular case? He got off light because we in the South are stupid conservative dumbfucks.

Or maybe he got off light BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS COMING AT HIM WITH A KNIFE and he showed restraint in not BLOWING HIS ATTACKER AWAY?

[tnlefty]

16. No, because every school that my kids have attended have signs

that plainly and clearly state that it is a violation of the law to bring a gun onto school property.

Enforce the laws.

[gorfle]

20. But...

But it's also against the law to bring a knife onto school property, and clearly that did not deter his attacker, just as it has not deterred anyone who is seeking a defenseless crop of victims to wreak havoc upon.

Change the laws.

[onehandle]

24. Throw both of the fuckers in jail.

No weapons anywhere near schools. Period.

[tnlefty]

28. Actually I just returned from a trip to school and made a point to

read the sign. Firearms has been replaced with weapons and it is a felony with a sentence of up to 6 yrs. in prison and/or a fine of up to $3,000.00.

No, enforce the law and throw them both in jail.

[gorfle]

29. Why?

No, enforce the law and throw them both in jail.

Why? If I'm a responsible citizen who has been fingeprinted and passed rigorous background checks and found suitable to hold a CCW permit and carry a concealed weapon down main street surrounded by hundreds of my fellow men, women, and child citizens, what magical thing happens when I walk onto a school campus that somehow makes me dangerous?

Do you have a problem with police officers with guns being on school campuses? Do armed police officers turn into deranged lunatics when they step onto school campuses?

Change the law.

[tnlefty]

31. No, enforce the law.

The laws don't need to be changed, just enforced.

Police officers are police officers and I don't want weapons allowed on school campuses, and I'm not really interested in your deranged lunatic argument.

[gorfle]

32. They do need to be changed because they are illogical.

The laws as they currently stand are illogical. There is nothing special about a school campus that would make an otherwise sane, responsible, CCW permit-carrying citizen somehow unable to function in a similar sane, responsible manner on a campus as opposed to off a campus.

I'd trust a CCW permit holding citizen to have as good as or probably better firearm handling skills than a police officer, so if a police officer can be on a school campus surely a CCW permit holder can be also.

I'm not really interested in your deranged lunatic argument.

Apparently you are unable to compose any valid response to it though.

Again, if a CCW permit holder can walk down main street surrounded by hundreds of his fellow men, women, and child citizens, why can he not walk across a school campus? What has changed that makes the situation different?

[WriteDown]

15. But the knife wielding maniac is a-okay with you?

:eyes:

[hayu_lol]

17. We obviously need a Federal Law...

that prevents parents from attending their kid's athletic events.

tongue in cheek

It might seem that the guy with the knife should have gotten an equal sentence...this may be grounds for an appeal on an appeal. Lesson learned: Everyone should take their attorney everywhere they go.

[onehandle]

23. No, I feel for him.

Until there is a Constitutional Amendment protecting the rights of knife wielding maniacs, none of us will be truly free.

Why guns and not knives?

And iPods.



You made a ridiculous straw man assumption, so I can do the same.

[slackmaster]

18. Sounds like the result of poor training

If you carry a concealed firearm for self-defense,

1. It really should be loaded, and

2. You NEVER display it unless you are in a potential shooting situation.

His behavior was entirely inappropriate.

[WriteDown]

19. Sounds like he WAS in a shooting situation....

but its hard to do that without any bullets.

[Zenlitened]

25. He even admitted as much, according to the quote in the article:

"I did not know what the best thing to do was."

Huh? I'd expect someone licensed to carry would be a bit more competent than that.

Isn't this one of the main pro-gun talking points, that such folks are skilled, trained, wise enough to be trusted with the responsibility, etc.?

Sounds like this guy was in over his head. I mean, it's good that he apparently was trying to think things through while in a tight spot.

But that sort of thinking has to be done in advance, no? Scenario planning, role playing, a better understanding of how the law applies in various situations...

This guy needs a lot more training, it appears, before he can become a Shining Example of the Joy and Beauty of Going Around Armed With a Handgun.

[The Croquist]

42. Actually I think he did just fine

The fact that he wasn't sure what to do is not a sign of incompetence but of reality. Lets look at the options:

Option 1: Do nothing and hope the guy doesn't murder you in front of your kid and other kids.
Option 2: Shoot the guy with the knife in the chest and let all the kids see just how fast blood can squirt out of a dieing man. Tough to do with an empty gun but the court records show that there was a magazine attached by velcro to the holster so he might have been able to do it before getting stabbed.
Option 3: Show the guy with the knife your gun and watch him go away hopefully with soiled underwear.

Role playing is fine and dandy but it's not the real thing. It's one thing to make a life or death decision about shooting someone. It's another to pull the trigger.

Tracy C. Clark plead guilty. He should have gone to a trial. I don't understand how a jury could convict him. If I was on it, it would have been at least a hung jury.

By the way, the judge, James G. Martin III, was appointed in 2008 by Governor Phil Bredesen, a Democratic. I think that Tennessee holds elections for circuit court judges. If so, this guy just lost unless he handed down the minimum sentence and even then he is in trouble.


http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/OPINIONS/tcca/PDF/082/clarktopn.pdf

[Blue_Tires]

21. more rec-league sports parenting fuckwittery

what I always wonder (and what usually gets lost in these discussions) is WHY so many people first think to escalating violence to resolve an issue? i realize its human nature, but in theory we're supposed to be evolving above it, not going the opposite way...

[MisterP]

26. technically, evolution doesn't work that way: that's a legacy of William Graham Sumner

on a different note, though, Douglas P. Fry's The Human Potential for Peace notes how individual conflict can be defused ritually (though I don't think the Aborigines' mutual willy-holding will catch on in the States)

[Blue_Tires]

27. i meant more societal rather than biological evolution

[Javaman]

22. huh who would have thought that someone bringing a knife to a gun fight would win? nt

[PeteytehMawnstar]

30. jeez

Are these the same people that were decrying "zero tolerance the other day. Actually, a little crazy i know, since no one got hurt, i really don't give a shit. No one got hurt so screw criminal prosecutions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. He did not know what the best thing to do was?

I thought they had to get training before getting a CCW permit. They don't cover this scenario in the training??

[X_Digger]

37. No Francis, training doesn't confer godlike powers. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. My name isn't Francis

And since when is it godlike to know how to use a gun responsibly?

[X_Digger]

61. Yes, quite extensive training..

.. but the moral dilemna isn't one that training will prepare you to decide- the way I read the statement (before it was taken down, haven't seen an updated article) is that the guy knew he was justified in shooting the knife wielding bozo, but didn't know if he wanted to take the responsibility. He was trying to resolve the situation without actually pointing a gun at some kid's parent. Good for him. Sucks that he would be in a better legal position if he actually _had_ pointed the gun at the knife wielding nut.

[Tiggeroshii]

54. ooops wrong response

[happyslug]

48. There is something wrong about this case, I wonder it this is a Case to set WHAT are the limits"

Remember this case was appealed to the Tennessee Court of Appeals once before AND that time the court ruled that the dismissal of the Charge about having a Firearm on School Property on the grounds of Self Defense was a question reserved for a Jury at trial.

The Court of Appeals ruled the prior dismissal by the Trial Judge amounted to a Summary Judgment (As that term in used in CIVIL Litigation) and as such NOT permitted in Criminal Actions. Furthermore the Court made a finding of Fact (i.e. Self-defense took place) that is a factual finding reserved to a Jury. Thus this is a case on Remand from appeal. My Reading of the Court of Appeals case was this case should have gone to a Jury.

The Decision of the Court of Appeals that governs this case:
http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/OPINIONS/tcca/PDF/082/clarktopn.pdf

As to this actual sentencing, I have my questions. First this is a sentence AFTER a trial. The Trial may have been with a Jury or without a Jury, the Article does NOT say. Anyone either a Judge or a Jury made a finding of Fact as to the issue of Self-Defense. The 20 day sentence sounds nominal and may be a set up for another appeal to the Court of Appeals, this time on the issue of whether a person banished an unloaded and still in its holster pistol "Self Defense" as that term is used in the State's ban on Firearms on School Property.

[The Croquist]

50. He plead guilty after rejecting a plea bargain.

I don't understand why. I'm sure he could have beaten it in court.

[BlueJessamine]

57. It's called Tennessee law and justice system-

illogically logical.

:hi:

Newer version @ The Tennessean, haven't found any other info:
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090525/COUNTY090101/905250314/Fairview+parent+convicted+for+gun+at+school


Williamson County Circuit Court Judge James G. Martin III said Clark may have been better off if he'd used the gun in self-defense. Under state law regulating weapons on school property, Clark might have avoided a conviction if he had actually pointed the gun or used it because that would have demonstrated self-defense, according to Martin.

"There's no question he was in a situation where a man pulled a knife on him," Martin said. "It's an extremely unusual statute . . . in the defense side of it. While it's illegal to possess a firearm (on school grounds), it's OK if you use it to defend yourself."

Sentence brings 20 days in jail

Martin found Clark guilty of possession of a weapon on school property, a class B misdemeanor. The judge sentenced Clark to 20 days in jail and six months of probation, ordered him to take anger management classes and said he cannot possess or handle a firearm, though the judge did not specify whether that order was permanent. Martin said he wanted to send a message that anyone who brings a gun to a school would face jail time.

"It's ironic that, under the statute, if he'd have pointed it at him things would be different," Martin said. "By his own testimony he didn't display it or use it in self-defense."

[Tiggeroshii]

55. They took the story down -_-

[BlueJessamine]

56. newer version available:

Fairview parent convicted for gun at school
Judge: Man's action can't be deemed a case of self-defense

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090525/COUNTY090101/905250314/Fairview+parent+convicted+for+gun+at+school

-maybe the judge didn't like the previous headline?

And in this version, a little more info on the man with the knife:

"Spann testified on Thursday that he didn't pull out his knife, which has a 3-inch blade, until after Clark told him he had a gun and was prepared to use it. Spann pleaded guilty to attempting to carry a weapon on school property in 2006. He was placed on probation for a year and ordered to complete 80 hours of community service."

Claims he didnt pull knife until after threatened with a gun??

Good thing he pled guilty, I don't believe a jury would have believed him.

Comment from the Tennessean:

''Well I've got a gun''. ''Well I've got a 3'' knife Mr. Smarty Pants''