violence and guns

[kbelzner]

SheilaT wrote: "So violence is unrelated to guns. That's why other countries have high murder rates -- people simply kill each other with knives and poison not guns. Oh? Other countries don't have high murder rates? And they don't allow just anyone to buy a gun? How bizarre!"

It is frequently claimed that stricter gun control laws result in more peaceful societies. This claim is not supported by the evidence.
http://tinyurl.com/y1k3

In 1974, Jamaica passed its Gun Court Act, virtually prohibiting gun possession. Punishment was to be mandatory life in prison for possession of a gun, or even for possession of a single bullet. The year 1974 also saw passage of numerous other repressive measures, including house-to-house searches, incommunicado detention, secret trials, warrantless searches and seizures, and military enforcement of the drug laws. The Jamaican violent crime rate dropped significantly for six months, returned to its former level over the next year, and then began to grow substantially worse than it had ever been.

According to the BBC, "the Caribbean island of just over 2.5 million people has one of the worst murder rates in the world."
See "Jamaica murder rate soars," 1 Jan. 2002.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1737306.stm

On August 18, 2001, Jamaican Melville Cooke observed that today, "the only people who do not have an illegal firearm , are those who do not want one." Violent crime in Jamaica is worse than ever, as gangsters and trigger-happy police commit homicides with impunity, and only the law-abiding are disarmed. Amnesty International estimates that one-third of the homicides are committed by the police.

Taiwan, the Philippines, Russia, Mexico and Brazil also virtually prohibit gun ownership by civilians, and all five of these countries suffer from rates of violent crime far higher than the US. http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

The majority of the European nations, with the exception of Switzerland where firearm ownership is a citizen's obligation, exhibit homicide rates similar or higher than Canada despite much more restrictive gun control laws.

In other words, gun control advocates have a lot of 'splainin' to do.


Warm regards,

Katarina

[MrBenchley]

1. Too too funny....

"The majority of the European nations, with the exception of Switzerland where firearm ownership is a citizen's obligation, exhibit homicide rates similar or higher than Canada"
A-and how does Canada compare to the US...oh, yeah, they don't have anything NEAR the level of bloodshed we do here...despite having that gun control that looonies here are rraging about.

By the way, you will notice none of these third world countries suffering high murder rates think letting neurotics carry concealed handguns or putting assault rifles on the street is any sort of solution....

[1a2b3c]

2. Canada doesnt have the war on drugs

[MrBenchley]

3. Canada also doesn't have

a corrupt gun industry making public policy...

Do you REALLY want to pretend Canada hasn't made cocaine, crack, heroin, meth, etc., illegal?

http://www.sgc.gc.ca/policing/organized_crime/FactSheets/illegal_drugs_e.asp

[1a2b3c]

19. Canada has the same gun industry that we have

Do you really want to pretend that Canada and the US have the SAME war on drugs with the same drug problems and laws? And are you trying to count a lobbying organization like the NRA as a part of the gun industry? They dont manufacture anything other than a few lies and propoganda.

[MrBenchley]

20. Who are you trying to kid?

How many gun manufacturers are there in Canada? And are you really trying to pretend that the NRA isn't part of the gun industry?

"Do you really want to pretend that Canada and the US have the SAME war on drugs"
You're the one making the claim that they have no problem on drugs...which as we've seen is horseshit..

[1a2b3c]

23. Are you trying to pretend

That they cant buy guns from us? They can import guns that we cant even get in America. Ever heard of a Norinco 1911? Well you cant import it into america but you can buy one in Canada brand spankin new.

I never said they didnt have a drug problem either. Its just minute in comparision with ours.

and no the NRA is not part of the gun industry. They manufacture 0 guns. They are a lobbying organization of the republican party who happens to be for gun rights and against some half-way decent gun laws.

[MrBenchley]

24. So in other words...

Canada doesn't have its own gun industry....

And the NRA is the lobbying arm of the gun nidustry....who the hell do you think you're kidding?

[Wcross]

10. I agree- the "war on drugs" is a major factor n/t

[kbelzner]

4. Comparison of US and Canadian crime rates

The states of the American midwest exhibit homicide rates substantially lower than the adjoining Canadian prairie provinces despite easier legal access to firearms and less restrictive handgun laws. Source: Canadian Crime Statistics, (Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Annual); Uniform Crime Reports for the United States, (United States Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Annual); and Brandon S. Centerwall, "Homicide and the Prevalence of Handguns: Canada and the United States, 1976 to 1980", American Journal of Epidemiology, (Vol. 134 No. 11, Dec. 1991), pp. 1245-1264.

As I said before, gun control advocates have quite a task before them if they want to persuade the rest of us of their arguments that gun control laws (licensing, registration, confiscation, etc.) are effective crime control measures.

Why it is that countries with more stringent gun control laws frequently have far higher rates of violent crime?

Why is that countries which have passed gun control laws have frequently seen violent crime rates increase?

Why do areas within the US with more stringent gun control frequently have higher rates of violent crime than areas without such gun control laws?

Instead of an intelligent discussion, Mr. Benchley offers sneers and smears.

The die-hard gun-controllers remind me of the drug warriors. They both want to punish people not for the harm they actually cause, but for what they *might* do.

[MrBenchley]

5. Who the hell are you trying to kid?

"Instead of an intelligent discussion, Mr. Benchley offers sneers"
With good reason, considering the dishonesty offered routinely by the RKBA crowd.

Want facts, since you're obviously desperately short of any?
Firearm homicide rates are 8.1 times higher in the United States than in Canada.
Handgun homicide rates are 15.3 times higher in the United States than in Canada.
Rates for non-firearm homicides are nearly 2 times higher in the United States than in Canada.
Firearm robbery rates are 3.5 times higher in the United States than in Canada.
Rates for all robberies are 2.4 times higher in the United States than in Canada.

http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.cfc%2Dccaf.gc.ca/en/research/other%5Fdocs/notes/canus/default.asp

http://142.206.72.67/04/04b/04b_002_e.htm

"The die-hard gun-controllers remind me of the drug warriors."
Funny, gun nuts often remind me of junkies...desperate lowlifes willing to tell any lie to get their fix.

[kbelzner]

6. Comparing Canada and the US

The US has always had a higher crime rate than Canada *regardless* of the gun control laws extant.

Why is that?

Since 1977, Washington, D.C., has virtually banned civilian ownership of firearms. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm - open or concealed - without getting permission, without paying a fee, without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. http://tinyurl.com/y1t5

US murder rate per 100,000 is 6.8.
Vermont murder rate per 100,000 is 1.5. (49th in the nation.)
Murder rate for Washington, D.C., is 45.8.
"DC IS AGAIN 'MURDER CAPITAL', NEW STUDY SHOWS."
http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.html

Why is that?

"Blaming gun owners explains nothing because that interpretation is flatly inconsistent with international statistical evidence. If gun ownership were a major 'cause' of crime and if gun availability were a major factor in the amount of criminal homicide, then first, nations where gun availability is more widespread than in the United States would uniformly have appreciably higher murder rates than the norm for demographically comparable nations. And second, nations that ban or severely restrict gun ownership would have appreciably lower homicide rates than the United States. Yet the International Intentional Homicide Table shows that in nations where gun availability exceeds the United States (e.g., Israel, New Zealand, and Switzerland), the homicide rates are as low as those of the highly gun-restrictive Western European and British Commonwealth countries to which America is frequently and aversely compared. Moreover, the two nations that most severely restrict gun ownership (punishing violation with death), Taiwan and South Africa, both have far higher apolitical murder rates than the United States."

See Don B. Kates,Jr., "Guns, Murders and the Constitution: A Realistic Assessment of Gun Control," February, 1990.
http://www.guncite.com/journals/gun_control_katesreal.html#h7.2

As I said, people who advocate gun control as a crime-preventive strategy have a lot of explaining to do.

[MrBenchley]

7. Spin it all you like....

It's still RKBA horseshit.

"kbelzner (28 posts)
4. Comparison of US and Canadian crime rates
The states of the American midwest exhibit homicide rates substantially lower than the adjoining Canadian prairie provinces despite easier legal access to firearms and less restrictive handgun laws."

"kbelzner (28 posts)
6. Comparing Canada and the US
The US has always had a higher crime rate than Canada *regardless* of the gun control laws extant. "

[kbelzner]

8. Is that your final answer?

"It's still RKBA horseshit."

So there's the explanation, folks.

Translation: Don't confuse me with the facts. I, Mr. Benchley, know what I know if you know what I mean. Disagree with me on the issue of firearms and you must be some kind of right-wing racist."

Warm regards,


Katarina

[MrBenchley]

9. All the answer needed....

"kbelzner (28 posts)
4. Comparison of US and Canadian crime rates
The states of the American midwest exhibit homicide rates substantially lower than the adjoining Canadian prairie provinces despite easier legal access to firearms and less restrictive handgun laws."

"kbelzner (28 posts)
6. Comparing Canada and the US
The US has always had a higher crime rate than Canada *regardless* of the gun control laws extant. "

"Don't confuse me with the facts."
As diligently as you avoid facts, there's small chance you're ever going to do that, belzner...

[kbelzner]

13. and you still cannot answer simple questions

We all know that Canada has less crime than the US. Why is that?

Inside the US, the safest ten states (such as Vermont, Wyoming, the Dakotas) are known for gun-friendly laws and relatively high ownership of firearms. Why is that?

In 1977 Washington, D.C., adopted registration, and licensing of firearms, and adopted a virtual ban on civilian ownership of handguns. Between 1977 and 1991, the murder rate tripled. Why is that?

35 states now allow qualified and responsible citizens to carry concealed weapons. Predictions of a massive upswing in violent crime ("blood in the streets," they predicted) just hasn't happened. In fact, violent crime and homicide rates have plummeted. Why is that?

Simple questions which you continue to sidestep. Instead of answering, you vent your rage.

Those who advocate restricting the freedom of law-abiding individuals to own firearms have quite a burden to meet. I have not seen them meet that burden.

Warm regards,

Katarina

[MrBenchley]

18. Surrrrrrrrre......

"kbelzner (28 posts)
4. Comparison of US and Canadian crime rates
The states of the American midwest exhibit homicide rates substantially lower than the adjoining Canadian prairie provinces despite easier legal access to firearms and less restrictive handgun laws."

"kbelzner (28 posts)
6. Comparing Canada and the US
The US has always had a higher crime rate than Canada *regardless* of the gun control laws extant. "

"Instead of answering, you vent your rage. "
Actually, I'm laughing my ass off at somebody trying to claim in one thread that Canadian crime rates are both higher AND lower than US rates....

[kbelzner]

21. read it again

If you compare the US national murder rate rate with the Canadian national murder rate, you find that the Canadian rate is lower.

If you limit your comparison to the murder rate of American states of the midwest vs. adjoining Canadian prairie provinces, then those American states of the midwest have a lower murder rate.

The US national murder rate would include murders committed in all fifty states whereas the American midwest would include only a few states.

I know this might be confusing, but I bet that if you go back and read the original study that I cited, you can figure it out.

[MrBenchley]

22. And if you spin hard enough

you can get as dizzy as a right wing piece of shit like Dave Kopel....

[MrSandman]

15. Explain how the Sullivan Act

has made NYC so much safer.

[solinvictus]

14. Finland and Norway

Both of these countries have liberal laws for gun ownership. In Finland, they have no equivalent of the NFA, so select fire weapons can be owned by individuals with minimal restrictions.

[Wcross]

11. kbelzner- I used that ignore feature-

It is again a pleasure to hang out in the dungeon.

[MrSandman]

12. What they *might* do

Based on irrational fear--I might get struck by lightning three times today.

or

Based on data that demonstrates that similar areas with more stringent gun laws hav less violent crime. I hear a lot of decrying states which allow CCW, but have yet to see any data to support preempting the right to carry, i.e. permit holders causing bloodshed and mayhem.

[DoNotRefill]

16. And here I thought....

that Michael Moore made the point in BFC that Canadians had lots of guns, just not a high murder rate.

Was he wrong?

[kbelzner]

17. Canadian violent crime rate

In 2001, there were 554 murders in Canada, which comes to 1.8 homicides for every 100,000. Murder is a useful indicator for the overall violent crime in a society because while many assaults and rapes go unreported, in homicide cases there is almost always a body.

BTW, the murder rate in Canada is on par with the murder rate in Vermont (1.5), New Hampshire (1.4), South Dakota (1.4), North Dakota (.9), Iowa (1.6), and Maine (1.2).

In "Bowling for Columbine," Michael Moore did make the point late in the film that while Canada has a lot of guns, its murder rate is quite a bit lower than that of the US. There are also high rates of gun ownership in Finand, New Zealand, and Switzerland, but those countries have murder rates far lower than the US. Clearly, there is something else at work here, something more complex than "guns cause crime like germs cause disease." See David B. Kopel, _The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies_. Check out his "International Perspectives on Gun COntrol," (New York Law School Journal of International and Comparative Law; 1995).
http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/lrnylstk.htm