Death of the Gun Control movement, birth of the Gun Rights movement

[virginia mountainman]

Some interesting observations I would like to share about the Gun Control/Gun Rights movement.

Gun Control supporters are in the grips of a long term voter backlash that shows no sign of abating anytime soon, the gun control gains made in the early 1990's planted the seeds, and those seeds, having grown into trees, are bearing fruit now. Every time a politician even mentions any kind of gun control, email servers melt, mail bags multiply, phone lines get red hot, and politicians get the message very quickly.

As long as gun owners perceive a threat, their activism will continue, after all, it is much better to be on the offensive, than the defensive. They are reminded of the threat, regularly, like the push to ban assault rifles in Washington state...Eric Holders comments.."talk" of closing the gun show loophole. Even Brady giving Obama an "F" reminds us, that their are people out there, who are plotting and scheming against the US Bill of Rights.

The talking heads on the news, that talk about "meaningful gun control" and complain about "lack of movement" on it, don't realize that all they are doing is reminding, millions of TV viewers in "rest of the nation", that "they are still trying to ban guns"...They elites just don't get it, so they keep talking, and the people, keep listening, and seeing the threat..

The Brady Campaign's and VPC's successes, almost 20 years ago, has come back to bite them, they kept "poking" the sleeping giant that is several million, peaceful, law abiding, reliably voting, solid block of gun owners... The politicians where quick to learn that gun control did not bring near the votes, Sara and her ilk promised, instead it costed them dearly, when their first votes on Gun Control, became among their very last votes.

Now those gun owners have reached the political strength, to not only stop, most gun control proposals before they even get to the floor for a vote, they have the ability to form their own legislation, and get it passed into law, and that is what we are seeing now...

15 years, of constant, steady political gains, has made it so..

Brady and the VPC should have quit, when they where ahead in 1993....The Hated AW ban of 1994, was the legislation that enraged millions, and most of them are still pissed about it.

If they would have stopped then, gun rights would not have moved so far today, but when they started banning guns, because of cosmetic features, gun owners woke up and said this is pure political BS, and "not one step more".

In a way, Brady, MMM, and the VPC, are their own worst enamy...We are a creation of them, now they can feel our wrath, its not our fault that we outnumber them by 10 to 1 at every meeting, lobby day, or public event..

The sad truth is, if they really want the gun right movement to go away, all they need to do is SHUT THE HELL UP about gun control, and in a few years, many strong gun rights supporters would stop pushing the legislators....BUT, Sara Brady, Paul Helmke, Micheal Blomberg, all republicans, cannot shut their traps that long to let the issue die down...

They keep the wound raw, so we, the great mass that is the Gun Rights movement, will march on...to victory...

(adapted from a forum post I made earlier)

EDIT to correct spelling error...LOL

[Skittles]

1. LOL.....they can feel our wraith?

:rofl:

[virginia mountainman]

4. LOL brain fart...NT

[Skittles]

8. not uncommon with gun folk

:rofl:

just teasing :D

[grantcart]

2. Congratulations - sounds like your gearing up for a parade

Do you feel that these legislative victories have improved the quality of life in the US?

[virginia mountainman]

3. Yes....Beyond a shadow of a doubt, they have.

The law abiding people, are now, much better able to protect themselves, and their loved ones.

Like this old man...

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Elderly-Man-Shoots-Intruder/fyT8VlMUGEG8HNXz8vdBRg.cspx

Our gun crime rates, are at record lows. Clearly, loosening restrictions are working.

[grantcart]

15. your lack of ambiguity is actually quite telling

anyone who thinks that looser gun accessibility has resulted in only positive results without any adverse effects is dellusional in a fanatical way.

I have enjoyed conversing with other less rabid people in the forum who have actually convinced me to change my mind about additional regulations and simply focus on enforcing existing regulations and making them more effective.

Many others here have taken a less strident and more balanced position and admitted that much more needs to be done to make sure that there is better education and voluntary enforement of gun safety generally.

The penchant for some folks advocating easy access to cite the anecdotal incident to confirm social policy for 300 million is bizarre. The emotional, bombastic and "end of the world" tone leaves the impression of an almost fetish relationship with their guns, especially when they start talking rhapasadorically about collections that number in the high dozens.

I can match your anecdotal stories all day long, put aside the huge number of anecdotal stories about work place violence and children with guns and simply cite domestic ones. Last yeark a guy about two miles from here took out his 2 kids and wife before he did himself in. So your annecdotal stories are more similar to religious conversion stories.

Statistics are not a good place for you to go because statistics for other industrial countries, including countries with large gun owning populations, like Switzerland and Canada show a much lower rate of homicide with guns.

But the most troubling statistic, IMHO, is the very high rate of suicide by use of gun. If you compare the statistics between the US and Switzerland (as you know universal male service in their reserves requires virtually a gun in every household, so they are the only European country that has gun ownership that is similar to the US) you will find that there is very little illegal use of firearms but that the rate of suicide in Switzerland and the US remain astronomically high compared to other countries where guns are not accessible.

The reality is that from a clear statistical point that while either possibility is extremely remote there is a much greater chance that the random gun owner will take his own life in a moment of temporary dispair than in defending themselves in a fatal attack.

I have enjoyed the more reasoned and cogent discussion of finding more effective policies and better safety with gun owners who I obviously do not share the same feeling of guns with, having lived in countries where gun control has resulted in zero homicides during the years I lived there, providing the freedom to go anywhere in the country without ever even thinking about personal safety, a very special freedom that no American experiences here.

If you think that your bombastic flag waving approach is useful in persuading others that you have answers to some pretty serious problems I would argue that your approach is limited to preaching to only the most loyal members of the choir.

[TheWraith]

16. A counterpoint.

"Many others here have taken a less strident and more balanced position and admitted that much more needs to be done to make sure that there is better education and voluntary enforement of gun safety generally."

I doubt there's anyone here who disagrees with more gun safety. But that's a teaching thing, not a law thing. Seatbelt laws didn't make everyone buckle up and still don't. There's nothing contradictory about saying that people should be entitled to have guns if they want, and also saying they need to be careful with them. I'm in favor of everyone who wants one being able to have a car, but it's illogical to then assume that I'm somehow in favor of reckless driving.

"Statistics are not a good place for you to go because statistics for other industrial countries, including countries with large gun owning populations, like Switzerland and Canada show a much lower rate of homicide with guns."

And Switzerland and Canada both have governments that are serious about combating poverty, which results in starving the gangs, and they don't have the massively lucrative level of drug trading that we do. The vast majority of US homicides involving a gun are by career offenders with illegal guns, engaging in fights with other career offenders. None of which has anything to do with legal guns, as your own point shows: both countries have lots and lots of guns, Switzerland nearly as many as we do, Canada a little down the list.

"But the most troubling statistic, IMHO, is the very high rate of suicide by use of gun. If you compare the statistics between the US and Switzerland (as you know universal male service in their reserves requires virtually a gun in every household, so they are the only European country that has gun ownership that is similar to the US) you will find that there is very little illegal use of firearms but that the rate of suicide in Switzerland and the US remain astronomically high compared to other countries where guns are not accessible."

A fact which is deceptive, since there are many countries like Japan and Belgium which have almost no guns, but still have a far higher suicide rate than ours. There has never been any scientific evidence to link suicide rates to firearms. Obviously in countries which have plenty of guns, those guns are going to be a preferred method of suicide, since done right they're fast and painless with little chance of botching it.

When you actually examine the numbers, the US is quite low on the list when it comes to suicide rate. 11 per 100,000, annually. Compare that to Japan with 24, or Belgium with 18. France at 17, Scotland at 16. Suicide rate, like crime rate, is far too complicated to easily blame it on one thing, let alone guns.

"The reality is that from a clear statistical point that while either possibility is extremely remote there is a much greater chance that the random gun owner will take his own life in a moment of temporary dispair than in defending themselves in a fatal attack."

Not accurate in the least. There's about 17,000 suicides each year with guns in the US, or about one for every 18,000 people. In contrast there's an estimated 2.5 million defensive uses of a gun per year, or one for about every 123 people.

"countries where gun control has resulted in zero homicides during the years I lived there, providing the freedom to go anywhere in the country without ever even thinking about personal safety, a very special freedom that no American experiences here."

On the contrary, many of us experience that every day. Hell, I've walked around inner city Pittsburgh at 1 AM without worrying. That comes from the knowledge that if you separate out people engaging in the illegal drug trade into their own category, the homicide rate in the US drops like a stone. Despite the play they get in the media, those instances of people shooting up their workplace or killing their family are, statistically speaking, very rare.

[X_Digger]

19. That wasn't your question..

You asked- "Do you feel that these legislative victories have improved the quality of life in the US?"

And VM responded- "Yes....Beyond a shadow of a doubt, they have. The law abiding people, are now, much better able to protect themselves, and their loved ones."

Nowhere did you ask, or did VM assert anything about "only positive results without any adverse effects".

Now on to a correction-

"rate of suicide in Switzerland and the US remain astronomically high compared to other countries where guns are not accessible."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Here are some of the countries with suicide rates higher than the US's 11.1/100k.. Japan (24.4), Belgium (18.2), Finland (18.8), France (17.0), Switzerland (17.0), Austria (15.6), New Zealand (13.2), Sweden (13.3), Canada (11.6).

So on the face of it, gun ownership appears to have little to do with suicide rates. There are countries with relatively high ownership rates below the US in the suicide rate listing, and there are countries with much higher suicide rates and low firearms ownership.

[Euromutt]

28. Whoa, you're conflating two statistics there

But the most troubling statistic, IMHO, is the very high rate of suicide by use of gun. If you compare the statistics between the US and Switzerland <...> you will find that there is very little illegal use of firearms but that the rate of suicide in Switzerland and the US remain astronomically high compared to other countries where guns are not accessible.

Those are two different statistics. Yes, the firearm suicide rate is much higher in Switzerland and the U.S., but the overall suicide rate is not.

Among OECD countries, the U.S. suicide rate is pretty unremarkable; around 11/100,000 (depending in the year), slightly lower than those of Germany, Canada and Denmark. The Swiss suicide rate is a bit higher, around 17-18/100,000, but that's comparable to neighboring France, and at last count, the Swiss male suicide rate was lower than France's. And neither of them come close to suicide rates in South Korea and Japan (both well over 20/100,000), despite private firearms ownership being almost non-existent in both those countries.

Availability of firearms does seem to influence choice of method, but it doesn't seem to affect suicide rates overall. When guns aren't an option, those intent upon suicide resort to hanging, or jumping in front of trains (very popular in Germany), gassing themselves with hydrogen sulfide (very trendy in Japan lately), or BASE-jumping sans parachute.

[Tim01]

20. Damn sure improved my life. nt

[old mark]

5. The people who head the anti-gun orgs actually make a lot of money from them.

They keep the pot stirred up to increase their income, as does the NRA.
The entire "gun control movement" is bullshit for cash.


mark

[msongs]

6. driven by fear of a black president, gun sales have soared in the USA :-) nt

[virginia mountainman]

7. Since 1994 ??? LOL.....

That fact along disproves your statement.

Your strawman is on fire....Better bring the water...WAAAATER.....

[aikoaiko]

12. The surge in purchasing guns and ammo is attributable to the Presisdent's promises to ban popular...

...rifles, pistols, and shotguns in standard configurations when both houses are controlled by us.

It would have happened regardless of the race of the President.

[SteveM]

13. Just the latest "excuse" for a failed gun-control movement...

Those supporting the Second Amendment have seen the call for another, even broader and permanent "assault weapons ban" in the Democratic Party Platform; not last decade, not last year, but RIGHT NOW. They can see similar calls on President Obama's web site, RIGHT NOW.

There will always be some people who "fear a black president," but the truth of the matter, msongs, is most don't care about the color of those who would ban firearms. They merely want them defeated.

On a personal note, after more than 45 years of political activism on the progressive/left, I have never seen an issue so ill-conceived, so arrogantly pursued, and so fraught with failure as that of "gun-control." It is counter-productive in the extreme, yet its proponents either refuse to see this manifest truth, or are so hell-bent on pursuing a culture war based on prohibition, that they have, ironically, become addicted to the dynamics of the "game," and are content to indulge in a hopeless "chase," the future of the Democratic Party and meaningful social reform be damned.

[rd_kent]

22. Steve, thanks for your thoughtful and factual response, but somehow I think that msongs will ignore

it or argue that you are wrong. I cannot remember a reply to an msongs post that was ever responded to, and if it was (a very rare occasion) it was to disparage the poster and sling insults and more failed talking points.


msongs, please prove me wrong here and respond to SteveM with an intelligent and rational reply.

[TheWraith]

17. All the more reason we liberals should be armed and dangerous.

And yes, I agree there's some truth to that when it comes to the most recent spurt, but it's also the fact that the election started a self-feeding panic about supplies and availability. Check out the story of Johnny Carson's toilet paper shortage.

[Tim01]

24. That'a a racist comment. Maybe you are on the wrong board. nt

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

11. It's not really appropriate to make gender based slurs anywhere, but especially on DU

It is no more appropriate for someone to attribute support for gun ownership to male genitals than to attribute support for gun control to female genitals.

[xchrom]

10. 'enamy' says it all.

Everything changes with time-- and the rationality of gun
control will prevail.

[SteveM]

14. Can you even conceive of gun-control's politically self-destructive results? nt

[TheWraith]

18. No, it won't. Gun control is dead.

It's got about as much chance of coming back as does a national abortion ban.

[benEzra]

21. Rationality *has* prevailed.

That's why the prohibitionist lobby failed, actually. Because the incessant fearmongering about rifle handgrips that stick out, the constant deception about what is already banned and who/what would be affected by their proposals, the willful conflation of the peaceful and nonviolent with violent criminals, the Chicken Little emotionalism, and the innuendo and vitriol, eventually made them irrelevant.

Had they focused on narrowly tailored measures to affect criminal misuse, instead of making harassment of the lawful and responsible Priority One, they probably could have gotten background checks on private sales and whatnot. Moral crusades tend toward irrationalism over pragmatism, however; alcohol prohibition was no different.

[rd_kent]

23. I want to believe you. Please explain how and what the rationality is.

Or are you just spewing BS?

[east texas lib]

25. Ah, the spelling mistake/typo = ignorant, uneducated, truck driving redneck gun owner gambit...

How quaint. Trends, sensibilities, mores and customs can change over time. What human beings are capable of doing to each other does not. The BOR takes into account human nature. Seen in this context, what could be rational about leaving citizens to fend for themselves at the hands of a stronger or armed criminal element?

[rrneck]

26. Bingo. nt

[SteveM]

30. All this fuss over "enema." nt

[proteus_lives]

27. Gun control is kaput.

The grabbers will have to find another authoritarian dream.

[Katya Mullethov]

31. Ask and you shall recieve

Whom do ya suppose all that "motherfucking fucking fuck " anger will get channeled towards ?

[spin]

29. K&R. If the Brady Campaign had focused on enforcing current laws...

and working to improve existing laws, such as the NICS background check, they would have made a greater impact than the course they followed produced.

Instead they chose to propagate lies and fear. For example, in every state that was considering "shall issue" concealed carry permits, they argued that the state would turn into the wild west with shoot outs at every intersection. The data from the states that issued "shall issue" carry permits didn't back them up. Still they continued.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results has often been defined as insanity.

Currently their web site is saying President Obama’s First Year: Failed Leadership, Lost Lives
In this document they rate his performance as "F" in all categories.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/reports/fedleg/obama-1styear-report.pdf

This is despite the fact the the FBI statistics shows otherwise.

For the third year in a row, our Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report shows that violent crime, property crime, and arson have decreased. The latest report compares January-June 2009 figures with the same time period in 2008.

Crimes reported to our Uniform Crime Program are down collectively: violent crime overall decreased 4.4 percent, property crime 6.1 percent, and arson 8.2 percent.
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/dec09/crimestats_122109.html

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/cv2.cfm