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Man appeals license denial - ‘Constitutional right’ to own machine gun

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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 06:54 PM
Original message
Man appeals license denial - ‘Constitutional right’ to own machine gun
Probably has slim to zero chance of winning (especially in the Kommonwealth of Massachusetts), but I applaud his effort and hope he succeeds.



STURBRIDGE — A local resident claims his constitutional rights were violated when the Police Department denied him a machine gun license.

Andrew K. Mongeon, 30, of 120 Wallace Road, submitted two applications, on July 16 and Aug. 3, 2008, to possess a machine gun and was denied both times. Selectmen discussed the matter in executive session last week, and Mr. Mongeon will appeal the decision Aug. 26 in Dudley District Court.

Mr. Mongeon holds a Class A unrestricted license to carry a firearm that police Lt. Alan G. Curboy issued Sept. 20, 2006, and which is to expire Sept. 20, 2012. Mr. Mongeon’s lawyer, Rachel M. Baird, claims that by issuing this license to Mr. Mongeon, Lt. Curboy had determined that her client is a suitable person to be licensed to possess a firearm.

Ms. Baird says in court documents that Lt. Curboy, who denied the machine gun application, claimed Mr. Mongeon is “not a bona fide collector of firearms,” even though Mr. Mongeon has a license from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Explosives and Firearms as a “collector of curios and relics.”


More...
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well the deer are starting to wear those vests.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. That's why we have leg hold traps to counteract those situations.
:hide:
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gravity556 Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. re:Well the deer are starting to wear those vests.
Hey, they've had just as much time to evolve thumbs, body armor and firearms as we have.

And there's no actual permit for C3 firearms. You need CLEO sign off on a form 4, but that can be bypassed by going the corporation route. I researched the hell out of getting an MG-right up to the point where I learned that a transferrable M16 lower goes for about 14 grand. Too rich for my blood.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. Wondered what happened to my old three-piece suit...
Less than 20% of gun-owners hunt. The other 80+ %? For target, self-defense and collectors' purposes.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. the militia can be "well regulated" which gives the government legal rights to regulate weapons nt
Edited on Mon Jul-26-10 07:13 PM by msongs
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. That word doesn't mean what you think it means.
"Well regulated" in the language of the time that the constitution was written meant well functioning and trained. Not "regulated" in the way that we talk about it today.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. "Militia"?... "Well regulated"?...
Edited on Mon Jul-26-10 07:43 PM by -..__...
LOL!!!

Dude... wake up and smell the coffee.

It's 2010.

All we need now is the "bu-bu-but Heller/McDonald was decided by a right-wing/Roberts court" blather's and the circle of denial will be complete.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Your post demonstrates that you really don't understand the Bill of Rights
Read its Preamble to get a sense of what it's about.

December 15, 1791
Preamble

Congress OF THE United States
begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday
the Fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.:

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. According to the SCOTUS
The Constitution means nothing, ie, Bush vs Gore, Citizens United and ignoring the 7th Amendment completely. If you look what it said in the majority opinion in McDonald vs Chicago on your rights, other than owning a handgun for the protection of ones HOME, it doesn't support any of what you think.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. spin, spin, spin.
The 2nd protects a right SUCH AS using firearms for self defense. Nothing in either opinion limits it to ONLY firearm in home for self defense.

So Held: The Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit affirmed. - Heller v. DC.

So Held: The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms for self defense in one's home is fully applicable to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit reversed and remanded. - McDonald v. Chicago

I see nothing in there limiting the right ONLY to self defense in the hone.


SafeInOhio: "What color is that car?"
Statistical: "Uh blue".
SafeInOhio: "Statistical confirms that all cars are ONLY BLUE. No cars of any other color exist anywhere in the world, never have, and never will"
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Tired tired an throughly debunked arguments.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. No it does not... You may find this interesting.
"Well Regulated" at the time of the framing means "the property of something being in proper working order". Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected.

by Daniel J. Schultz

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The reference to a "well regulated" militia, probably conjures up a connotation at odds with the meaning intended by the Framers. In today's English, the term "well regulated" probably implies heavy and intense government regulation. However, that conclusion is erroneous.

The words "well regulated" had a far different meaning at the time the Second Amendment was drafted. In the context of the Constitution's provisions for Congressional power over certain aspects of the militia, and in the context of the Framers' definition of "militia," government regulation was not the intended meaning. Rather, the term meant only what it says, that the necessary militia be well regulated, but not by the national government.

To determine the meaning of the Constitution, one must start with the words of the Constitution itself. If the meaning is plain, that meaning controls. To ascertain the meaning of the term "well regulated" as it was used in the Second Amendment, it is necessary to begin with the purpose of the Second Amendment itself. The overriding purpose of the Framers in guaranteeing the right of the people to keep and bear arms was as a check on the standing army, which the Constitution gave the Congress the power to "raise and support."

As Noah Webster put it in a pamphlet urging ratification of the Constitution, "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe." George Mason remarked to his Virginia delegates regarding the colonies' recent experience with Britain, in which the Monarch's goal had been "to disarm the people; that . . . was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." A widely reprinted article by Tench Coxe, an ally and correspondent of James Madison, described the Second Amendment's overriding goal as a check upon the national government's standing army: As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.

Thus, the well regulated militia necessary to the security of a free state was a militia that might someday fight against a standing army raised and supported by a tyrannical national government. Obviously, for that reason, the Framers did not say "A Militia well regulated by the Congress, being necessary to the security of a free State" -- because a militia so regulated might not be separate enough from, or free enough from, the national government, in the sense of both physical and operational control, to preserve the "security of a free State."

It is also helpful to contemplate the overriding purpose and object of the Bill of Rights in general. To secure ratification of the Constitution, the Federalists, urging passage of the Constitution by the States had committed themselves to the addition of the Bill of Rights, to serve as "further guards for private rights." In that regard, the first ten amendments to the Constitution were designed to be a series of "shall nots," telling the new national government again, in no uncertain terms, where it could not tread.

It would be incongruous to suppose or suggest the Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment, which were proscriptions on the powers of the national government, simultaneously acted as a grant of power to the national government. Similarly, as to the term "well regulated," it would make no sense to suggest this referred to a grant of "regulation" power to the government (national or state), when the entire purpose of the Bill of Rights was to both declare individual rights and tell the national government where the scope of its enumerated powers ended.

In keeping with the intent and purpose of the Bill of Rights both of declaring individual rights and proscribing the powers of the national government, the use and meaning of the term "Militia" in the Second Amendment, which needs to be "well regulated," helps explain what "well regulated" meant. When the Constitution was ratified, the Framers unanimously believed that the "militia" included all of the people capable of bearing arms.

George Mason, one of the Virginians who refused to sign the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights, said: "Who are the Militia? They consist now of the whole people." Likewise, the Federal Farmer, one of the most important Anti-Federalist opponents of the Constitution, referred to a "militia, when properly formed, in fact the people themselves." The list goes on and on.

By contrast, nowhere is to be found a contemporaneous definition of the militia, by any of the Framers, as anything other than the "whole body of the people." Indeed, as one commentator said, the notion that the Framers intended the Second Amendment to protect the "collective" right of the states to maintain militias rather than the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms, "remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis."

Furthermore, returning to the text of the Second Amendment itself, the right to keep and bear arms is expressly retained by "the people," not the states. Recently the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed this view, finding that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right held by the "people," -- a "term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution," specifically the Preamble and the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments. Thus, the term "well regulated" ought to be considered in the context of the noun it modifies, the people themselves, the militia(s).

The above analysis leads us finally to the term "well regulated." What did these two words mean at the time of ratification? Were they commonly used to refer to a governmental bureaucracy as we know it today, with countless rules and regulations and inspectors, or something quite different? We begin this analysis by examining how the term "regulate" was used elsewhere in the Constitution. In every other instance where the term "regulate" is used, or regulations are referred to, the Constitution specifies who is to do the regulating and what is being "regulated." However, in the Second Amendment, the Framers chose only to use the term "well regulated" to describe a militia and chose not to define who or what would regulate it.

It is also important to note that the Framers' chose to use the indefinite article "a" to refer to the militia, rather than the definite article "the." This choice suggests that the Framers were not referring to any particular well regulated militia but, instead, only to the concept that well regulated militias, made up of citizens bearing arms, were necessary to secure a free State. Thus, the Framers chose not to explicitly define who, or what, would regulate the militias, nor what such regulation would consist of, nor how the regulation was to be accomplished.

This comparison of the Framers' use of the term "well regulated" in the Second Amendment, and the words "regulate" and "regulation" elsewhere in the Constitution, clarifies the meaning of that term in reference to its object, namely, the Militia. There is no doubt the Framers understood that the term "militia" had multiple meanings. First, the Framers understood all of the people to be part of the unorganized militia. The unorganized militia members, "the people," had the right to keep and bear arms. They could, individually, or in concert, "well regulate" themselves; that is, they could train to shoot accurately and to learn the basics of military tactics.

This interpretation is in keeping with English usage of the time, which included within the meaning of the verb "regulate" the concept of self- regulation or self-control (as it does still to this day). The concept that the people retained the right to self-regulate their local militia groups (or regulate themselves as individual militia members) is entirely consistent with the Framers' use of the indefinite article "a" in the phrase "A well regulated Militia."

This concept of the people's self-regulation, that is, non-governmental regulation, is also in keeping with the limited grant of power to Congress "for calling forth" the militia for only certain, limited purposes, to "provide for" the militia only certain limited control and equipment, and the limited grant of power to the President regarding the militia, who only serves as Commander in Chief of that portion of the militia called into the actual service of the nation. The "well regula" of the militia set forth in the Second Amendment was apart from that control over the militia exercised by Congress and the President, which extended only to that part of the militia called into actual service of the Union. Thus, "well regula" referred to something else. Since the fundamental purpose of the militia was to serve as a check upon a standing army, it would seem the words "well regulated" referred to the necessity that the armed citizens making up the militia(s) have the level of equipment and training necessary to be an effective and formidable check upon the national government's standing army.

This view is confirmed by Alexander Hamilton's observation, in The Federalist, No. 29, regarding the people's militias ability to be a match for a standing army: " . . . but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights . . . ."

It is an absolute truism that law-abiding, armed citizens pose no threat to other law-abiding citizens. The Framers' writings show they also believed this. As we have seen, the Framers understood that "well regulated" militias, that is, armed citizens, ready to form militias that would be well trained, self-regulated and disciplined, would pose no threat to their fellow citizens, but would, indeed, help to "insure domestic Tranquility" and "provide for the common defence."

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. Quite wrong. The BOR limits the government, and doesn't give it "rights."
I think you have been well-drilled on this, but you keep floating the militia clause like a turd in a punch bowl.

The Bill of Rights LIMITS government and does NOT "...give the government legal rights..." You not only miss-read the Second Amendment, you have a completely screwed-up understanding of the entire BOR. Please note the portions of the ARTICLES which explains the powers of government -- including those pertaining to STATE militias. Most scholars see the Second as RECOGNIZING an INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. And it didn't take the SCOTUS for them to make up their collective minds.

Stay after class so you may be drilled on civics again; over and over as necessary.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bonnie and Clyde are dead and buried
So WHO does he need to defend himself against with a machine gun?
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Zombies, perhaps?
Does it even matter why he's seeking the permit?

:shrug:

Whatever the reason, maybe if you had read the complete article you'd know WHY he wants the permit.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. The OP doesn't say anything about why he wants to own a machine gun
If he collects firearms, he probably just wants one for his collection. That's why I'd like to own a few.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Where does it say in the Constitution
that the rights of "collectors" are protected? I'm sure some KKK members would like to own a few also.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You really should re-read Heller & McDonald..
hint.. 'traditionally lawful purposes such as...'
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. All rights exist save those that have been curtailed through due process of law
HTH
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Thanks, that finally explains everything
All rights can be curtailed by case law. Thus rendering the Constitution, functionally, worthless. That explains Gore vs Bush and Citizens United.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Nope.
There are limits on govt ability to limit rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. But, I thought 9/11 changed everything
Habeas corpus and 4th Amendment went out the window, as may recall. Gore vs Bush, the 10th went out the window. Exxon Valdez, the 7th went out the window........
If you really want to save the 2nd, you'd better start with the whole document or you'll have no recourse.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I don't disagree with your assessments of the infringements of our rights
They're all equally important to me.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. I do support the whole document. I am member of ACLU, EFF, and the NRA.
Edited on Tue Jul-27-10 08:31 AM by Statistical
I oppose all criminal violations of Constitutional protections.

However your logic seems to be the govt violated rights in the past so we should just give up and accept a dictatorship with no rights and only temporary privileges.

Unlike you I DO support the whole document. Maybe it makes me a bad person but I gave significantly more money to EFF than I did Obama campaign in 2008.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. The KKK would prefer no one have guns.
Mob violence is much easier when the victims can't resist.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. You better sit down and collect yourself.......
There are about a couple million lawfully registered machine gun owners. While the registry was closed in 1986, those guns which were lawfully registered at that time can still be sold to other people who jump through all the proper hoops. Like get the local chief law enforcement officer in your jurisdiction to sign off on the ATF Form 4 (Like a "Mother, may I....")Submit two sets of fingerprints, two recent passport size photos, and the tax payment. That's on top of the wheelbarrow full of money you need to convince someone who has a legal machine gun to turn loose of it and sell it to you.

Need has absolutely nothing to do with it, any more than anyone needs to collect anything, from pre-Columbian art, to stamps, to steam engines, or any of the myriad gadgets collectors are fond of collecting.

This very week at Oshkosh Wisconsin there will be an air-show and convention where privately owned jet fighters and bombers will be flown and on display. Are you going to say no one needs a B-29 since no one needs to bomb Hiroshima anymore? That's not why they have it. And you are no more likely to be shot by a legal machine gun than you are to have a P-51 Mustang strafe your next pool party.

Just as pilots and aircraft enthusiasts have fly-ins, machine gun owners have a few big shoots they attend. But if they are out of state, you have to request permission, and obtain prior approval, from the ATF in writing to travel to the shoot with your registered machine gun by submitting ATF Form 5320.20.

The local law enforcement sign-off has long been contentious because the CLEO's discretion is absolute. He doesn't have to give you a reason why he won't sign. He can be as fickle, arbitrary and capricious as he wants because there's nothing you can do about it. You can try to find an alternate official whose signature will satisfy the ATF. You can incorporate and do away with the need for any signature altogether. So there sheriff not signing is not an insurmountable obstacle. It's just that his policy could be I won't sign for middle-aged snowbirds from New York because they piss me off and that's the end of it!

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. That is why it is called a bill of rights not bill of needs.
He doesn't need to show need.

He also never said he wanted to use it for defense. Machineguns have appreciated very rapidly over last couple decades. Far better than stocks, bonds, gold, or real estate. He may just be planning to hold it as collector's item.

The state does have a right to restrict firearms, nobody is indicating that. However the state hasn't shown why he should be denied this permit. Many people with similar levels of training and criminal background are denied a permit. That whole equal protection under the law thing.
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. Again, there is no "need" in the Constitution. And Heller specifically named the M-16
as being particularly suited to militia service.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
46. The only way...
the government is going to be able to keep at least one full-auto, the M16, out of common circulation is for them to come out and say they prefer the AR15 for the unorganized militia. They could easily make a case for that. Of course then they just pretty much shot down any hope of banning AR15's. The NFA will survive but the Hughes Amendment is going to get canned unless they make some drastic policy changes at the national level.

If the government issues troops the M16 as their basic personal weapon, then that's what the population should be carrying as well.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
39. Don't you have some test shopping at Wal-Mart to do?
Edited on Tue Jul-27-10 03:23 PM by friendly_iconoclast
You were going to go there and buy a gun, "no questions asked", and report back to us:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=331344#331470

Posts #72 and 75

Remember?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Yeah how did that "any gun no questions asked" work out?
Edited on Tue Jul-27-10 09:23 PM by Statistical
I remembered when you were so confident that US federal background checks (questions) didn't apply to the nation of Florida. It being a sovereign power and all.

I am still waiting for these new $99 firearms you know exist. I mean $99; I would buy a couple more. Don't hold out on us.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Well, you can get Mosin's for that...
Assault weapon indeed.....
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Assault weapon indeed..... Just ask anyone on the Ost Front. n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. As a fellow C&R license holder, I wish Mr. Mongeon the best of luck
Being a "bona fide collector of firearms" isn't even good enough to qualify for a machine gun here in California. You have to be engaged in some kind of business in which they are used, e.g. movie props.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Doesn't specify what weapon he was attempting to license...
Edited on Mon Jul-26-10 08:33 PM by east texas lib
An M-60 might be a tough sell as a curio and relic piece. Would a Maxim or a Gatling be easier, I wonder? And wouldn't you need to hold a Title 3 license plus purchase a Federal transfer permit on each weapon to possess it? I'm talking modern machine guns only, not C&R.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
12.  Gatling guns are NOT "machine guns" and anyone
Who can purchase a firearm, and has the money, can buy one.

http://www.mediamogulsweb.com/client/battery_gun_co/index.php


http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=14858


http://www.thegunsmiths.com/bwefirearms.html

I have fired a friends 1890 7 bbl in 45/70. It's a BLAST.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. It's the way MA firearms laws are written.
Aside from Federal requirements (and the CLEO sign-off), there's a separate permit required commonly referred to as a "green card".

It has nothing to do with the era or type of FA firearm.

In order to obtain a "green card", one has to meet either of the following criteria...


(n) Upon issuance of a license to carry or possess firearms under this section, the licensing authority shall forward a copy of such approved application and license to the executive director of the criminal history systems board, who shall inform the licensing authority forthwith of the existence of any disqualifying condition discovered or occurring subsequent to the issuance of a license under this section.

(o) No person shall be issued a license to carry or possess a machine gun in the commonwealth, except that a licensing authority or the colonel of state police may issue a machine gun license to:

(i) a firearm instructor certified by the municipal police training committee for the sole purpose of firearm instruction to police personnel;

(ii) a bona fide collector of firearms upon application or upon application for renewal of such license.

(p) The executive director of the criminal history systems board shall promulgate regulations in accordance with chapter 30A to establish criteria for persons who shall be classified as bona fide collectors of firearms.


http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm

Possessing a C&R license establishes a person as "bona fide collector".
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17.  A Gatling gun is NOT a "machine gun" to the ATFE.
It is a manually operated rifle. There is NO trigger. Unless MA law considers it otherwise.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Learned something new...
I just always assumed Gatlings were classified as NFA weapons.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
30.  The reason is no trigger, but if you add a motor
Whether electric, steam, air, or a waterwheel the switch, valve or lever becomes a trigger. And you have a NFA weapon!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Makes sense n/t
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
53. Yes... I'm aware ot that.
I was trying to explain to east texas lib what the criteria is for even applying for a FA permi here.
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. The M-16 was singled out as being suited to militia sere vice in Heller. nt
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
56. To qualify as a curio or relic a gun has to be 50 years old
An M60 actually makes it, but just barely, as the first versions were built in 1957. It also has to be an "original" gun.

Prior to the closing of the NFA registry in 1986 many Maxim, Vickers, and Browning guns were imported as "parts sets" and were restored by manufacturing a new right hand side plate. Guns which were not originally imported as machine guns prior to 1968 are NOT "C&R eligible."

This becomes an issue in some states, like Michigan, where except for policemen, a privately owned machine gun must be on the ATF's Curio & Relic list. Thus a wartime issue Sten (on a Form 4) would be legal to own in Michigan, a Sten built up on an Erb tube (also on a Form 4) would not be.

About 10 years ago or so Stembridge, the movie gun rental company, had the "M16's" used in the filming of the TV series, "Tour of Duty" for sale at the Knob Creek machine gun shoot. They were all conversions of SP1's done by La France Specialties and their condition was generally rougher than a waterfront whore. The asking prices were in the 7K range then. The company, of course, also provided documented provenance, but while they might have appeal to some collectors, those guns, as conversions, did not automatically qualify as curios or relics under the law.

A collector, could, however, write to the ATF and explain why the unusual characteristics or history of a particular firearm would qualify it as a curio or relic and ask the ATF to make such a determination for that example by serial number. The ATF has made such determinations for particularly unusual or historical firearms, and in some cases, for certain short-barreled rifles also removed them from NFA requirements, e.g., some specific, by serial number, Model 1892 Winchester trapper models.

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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-10 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
23. Don't you mean 'Taxachusetts?'
Rolls off the tongue a bit easier than 'Kommonwealth of Massachusetts.'

Hmm?

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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. Whatever...
Edited on Wed Jul-28-10 09:00 PM by -..__...
3 more years until retirement and I'm outta here for greener pastures.

My only concern is that the fleeing "we need to change things here more to our liken" Massholes before or after I arrive have or will fuck up my new chosen state of residence.
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. He may have a case. It depends on
how the argument is framed BUT keep in mind that in Heller the M-16 was named as being particularly suited to militia service. This could get interesting.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
42. I would like to see the closing of the NFA registry challenged
in light of the recent decisions. It seems to me it would be overturned. The existence of NFA I believe would be upheld, just the closing of the registry isn't consistent with the 2nd, imo.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #42
43.  And all those who now own high priced full autos
will cry buckets of tears when the prices fall 50% or more!!!!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. A short-term loss in pursuit of the greater good
Besides, my automobile costs as much as an MP5 with all the fixin's. I didn't buy the automobile with the expectation that it would appreciate in value - I just needed a better way to get my wife around town without carrying her on my back. Which would have been fun, but only up to a point.

If a gun appreciates in value, that's great, but we shouldn't get comfortable with the thought of buying guns as investment items the same way we might buy stocks, gold bars, paintings, etc.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #44
45.  Parts of my collection have appreciated over 50% in value.
This is, in part, due to age, rarity and condition.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. belt-fed and water-cooled
There is hardly anything more joyous then when the busybody biddy across the road called the State Police.

"Yes, officer, may I help you?"

"Sir, we have received reports about automatic weapons fire."

"The reports are accurate. Anything else would you like to know?"



She called the Sheriff's office first and was miffed when the deputy said, "Where? Oh, he's OK ma'am."

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Mrs Grundy alive and well, eh? n/t
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. You are more correct than you know.
There is at least on big-time dealer who has reportedly been lobbying against reopening the registry.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. My machine gun would drop probably 75% in value.
Edited on Wed Jul-28-10 01:59 PM by OneTenthofOnePercent
I would certainly be sad for my MAX11... But then I'd celebrate the new law by:

Buying a "new" Mac 11/nine to beat up on ($300)
Making a lightning link for my AR10 ($50)
making a full auto selector rear-plate for my CCW Glock 19 ($100)
Converting my WASR to a full auto AK47 ($50)

I'm sure adding 4 full autos to my collection for less than $500 will dry my tears up. :D
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. But... will that really happen?
I can see prices dropping with more modern era FA firearms... M-16's, UZI's, MP-5's, etc, but original Thompsons, Stens, Grease Guns, Maxims, BARs etc should retain their value (or decline very little).

Regardless... even if FA prices did drop 50% or more; it's doubtful I could even afford to feed the beasts given what the cost of ammo is nowadays. :(
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