Report: Weak Laws Turn a Handful of States Into Shopping Malls for Gun Traffickers

[divideandconquer]

Report: Weak Laws Turn a Handful of States Into Shopping Malls for Gun Traffickers

Michael R. Bloomberg

A handful of states with weak gun laws are the largest contributors to the U.S. market for illegally trafficked guns. That's the alarming finding of the new report "Trace the Guns: The Link Between Gun Laws and Interstate Gun Trafficking," a groundbreaking report issued today by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a coalition of more than 500 mayors that I co-chair with Boston Mayor Thomas Menino.

"Trace the Guns" examines troves of new data released to Mayors Against Illegal Guns by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and for the first time demonstrates the connection between laws designed to deter illegal trafficking and lower crime gun export rates.

Mississippi, West Virginia, Kentucky, Alaska, Alabama, South Carolina, Virginia, Indiana, Nevada, and Georgia were the ten states that supplied crime guns at the highest rates - each of them supplying guns used in crimes at a rate more than twice the national average.

Not only do they supply a disproportionate amount of crime guns, but these states are also more likely to be the source of guns recovered in crimes within two years of the original sale, which the ATF says is a key sign of illegal trafficking.

See for yourself: read the report and see where guns are coming from in your state on the interactive website: TraceTheGuns.org.

The stakes are high: 12,000 people per year are murdered with guns in the United States. If one state ignores a gap in its laws, other states have to deal with the deadly consequences.
---------------------------------------------------
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-bloomberg/report-weak-laws-turn-a-h_b_740167.html

[sharesunited]

1. A nationwide clampdown is needed to make guns and ammo uniformly scarce.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[divideandconquer]

25. New York Remains Safest Big U.S. City as Crime Declines 5%

New York Remains Safest Big U.S. City as Crime Declines 5%, Mayor Says

By Henry Goldman - Sep 13, 2010 4:23 PM ET

New York City’s major crime rate fell 5.1 percent in 2009, and its 471 murders represented an annual decline of 9.9 percent compared with the national average of 7.2 percent, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.

FBI crime data showed that of the 25 largest U.S. cities New York recorded 2,242 “index crimes” of murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, larceny and auto theft for every 100,000 residents, the mayor’s office said today in a news release. San Jose, California, was ranked second with 2,746 such crimes per 100,000, and San Diego third, with 2,903 per 100,000.

Among 266 U.S. cities with populations larger than 100,000 the city’s crime rate placed it 248th, between Garden Grove, California and Sunnyvale, California. No other city with more than 262,000 people was deemed safer than New York, the mayor’s office said.
-----------------------------
<http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-13/new-york-city-remains-safest-big-u-s-city-as-crime-drops-5-mayor-says.html>

[spin]

55. The crime decrease in NYC has been attributed to many factors ...

I favor the belief that better police work is the big secret. NYC is a lesson for cities like Chicago. Passing draconian gun laws does not significantly decrease violent crime. Smart police work brings immediate results.

Kelly: Police working smarter

***snip***
In the past year, because of massive budget problems, Mayor Michael Bloomberg canceled a class of police academy cadets and reduced the cap on officers citywide. There are more than 30,000 officers.

But Kelly said the department is working smarter and credits some of the same programs that have kept the crime rate declining for years. That includes placing most graduating police officers in higher-crime areas, and the department's Real Time Crime Center, an $11 million program launched about four years ago that relies on tips from pedestrians and uses satellite imaging and computerized mapping systems to identify geographic patterns of crimes.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32920060/

[lawodevolution]

62. Wrong! Murders up 20% in the big apple

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/nyregion/12police.html

It seems MAIG isn't helping NYC keep the violent crime rate down in 2010

[lawodevolution]

65. El paso Texas has 2.5 times fewer murders per capita

New York had 466 murders in 2009
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City?wasRedirected=true
New York has a population of 8.4 million.

El paso, tx had 12 murders in 2009 and a population of 615,000 and who knows how many uncounted illegals.
http://americasvoiceonline.org/blog/entry/facts_show_az_is_safer_than_its_been_in_years

New York : 5.55 murders/100,000
El Paso : 1.95 murders/100,000

Let me remind you:
"Among 266 U.S. cities with populations larger than 100,000 the city’s crime rate placed it 248th, between Garden Grove, California and Sunnyvale, California. No other city with more than 262,000 people was deemed safer than New York, the mayor’s office said. "

El paso has a population more than double 262,000 and 2.5 times less murder.  Why would you expect a group of thug and felon mayors to represent the truth?

[lawodevolution]

66. Murder down 83% in first half of 2010 in El Paso, Tx

http://www.kvia.com/news/24341663/detail.html

And El Paso has more guns than people and relaxed gun laws and our mayor is not a member of MAIG.

[beevul]

71. Oh really?

I just bet you believe it too.

I suppose, the claim could be made, that crime has been reduced, when you have police departments reclassifying crimes as lesser crimes:


It said Perez cited "pressure from top police officials" -- indicating that the quota system was countenanced, even encouraged, from on-high.

Its story added that "the recording makes clear that precinct leaders were focused on raising the number of summonses issued -- even as the Police Department had already begun an inquiry into whether crime statistics in that precinct were being manipulated."

Crime statistics being manipulated is the elephant in the room down at One Police Plaza. Downgrading felonies to misdemeanors, to make city-wide crime appear lower than it actually is, is not confined to the 81st precinct but appears to be rampant throughout the department.

As criminologists Eli Silverman and John Eterno, a former NYPD captain, wrote recently in the Village Voice, "The ominous side is that in order to silence dissenters and deny any problems, the NYPD continues to close its doors to any non-sponsored outside scrutiny. Yet the evidence of data manipulation is, at this point, overwhelming."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/len-levitt/adrian-schoolcraft-enter-_b_714484.html

And then theres this:


Mayor Bloomberg likes cop statistics, but please don't quota him on that
BY Rocco Parascandola
DAILY NEWS POLICE BUREAU CHIEF


He won't call them "quotas," but Mayor Bloomberg believes that keeping track of the number of traffic tickets an agent writes is "responsible management."

In a July letter, Bloomberg urged Gov. Paterson to kill a measure that would make it illegal for cops to set quotas for summonses, arrests and stop-and-frisks - and to punish those who meet the goals.

"For an employee whose function it is to issue parking tickets, a measurement clearly relevant to job performance is the number of summonses issued over the course of a reasonable period of time," the letter said.

Paterson signed the bill on Aug. 30 - apparently taking the city by surprise.

Cops and union officials have long complained that supervisors demand they issue a set number of tickets or make a set number or arrests every month.



http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/29/2010-09-29_mike_likes_cop_statistics_but_please_dont_quota_him_on_that.html?r=news

Oh and then theres this:

Made without the knowledge or approval of the NYPD, the tapes—made between June 1, 2008, and October 31, 2009, in the 81st Precinct in Bedford-Stuyvesant and obtained exclusively by the Voice—provide an unprecedented portrait of what it's like to work as a cop in this city.

They reveal that precinct bosses threaten street cops if they don't make their quotas of arrests and stop-and-frisks, but also tell them not to take certain robbery reports in order to manipulate crime statistics. The tapes also refer to command officers calling crime victims directly to intimidate them about their complaints.

As a result, the tapes show, the rank-and-file NYPD street cop experiences enormous pressure in a strange catch-22: He or she is expected to maintain high "activity"—including stop-and-frisks—but, paradoxically, to record fewer actual crimes.

After the meeting ends, a supervisor makes a couple of other off-handed comments to Schoolcraft, noting that the pressure to artificially lower crime statistics is fueled by the bosses downtown. "The mayor's looking for it, the police commissioner's looking for it . . . every commanding officer wants to show it," he says. "So there's motivation not to classify the reports for the seven major crimes. Sometimes, people get agendas and try to do what they can to avoid taking the seven major crimes."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-05-04/news/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuy-s-81st-precinct/2/


And then you could listen to this:


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/sites/all/play_music/play_full.php?play=414&podcast=1

its an audio that has as the second part, an interview with adrian schoolcraft, and some audio clips of the people responsible for cooking the books in NYC.

[applegrove]

17. I concur.

[NewMoonTherian]

87. I disagree.

[bluestateguy]

2. He'll just never be satisfied until the only people allowed to have guns are police and the military

nt

[spin]

75. Don't forget about people like Donald Trump ...

From left: Marc Anthony, Robert De Niro and Donald Trump

They might not be dangerous, but they're armed.

Seeking an added layer of protection, more high-profile celebrities are seeking permits to carry guns in New York City, according to New York's Daily News.

Among the big names licensed to pack heat: Marc Anthony, Robert De Niro, Donald Trump, and his son, Donald Jr., Mets third baseman David Wright, and Martha Stewart's daughter, radio host Alexis Stewart.

Anthony, 42, has a special permit that allows him to carry a loaded weapon in the city, and has a similar permit for Nassau County, where he and Jennifer Lopez have a $2 million home in Brookville.

***snip***

Gun permit aren't easy, or cheap, to get. Applicants must show that they often carry large amounts of cash or valuables, or that they are being threatened in some way. And the application alone costs a nonrefundable $340.

Despite the rise in applications from celebrities, the number of permits issued in New York City is actually down by 2.4 percent this year, to 2,093.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20429404,00.html

I have no problem with celebrities owning firearms or legally carrying concealed. I do have a problem when the average honest citizen can't.

[cleanhippie]

4. According to the FBI, crime is dropping like a rock.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_01a.html


http://www.fbi.gov/page2/september10/crime_091310.html

[sharesunited]

5. Why do I read about multiple gun homicides every day? Shouldn't such news be infrequent?

[cleanhippie]

6. In relative terms, it is infrequent.

You have a better chance of dying in your car. Just because the news makes a story does not make it more frequent. But you knew that.

And murder by gun IS getting less and less frequent.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html


but you knew that too.

[sharesunited]

7. Dying in your car is by accident. Not by someone's capricious infliction of personal "justice."

Massive massive difference.

[cleanhippie]

8. Another FAILED attempt to deflect from the topic.

Lets talk about those stats, shall we?

[G_j]

10. deflect? car accidents have NOTHING to do

with this.

but you knew that

[cleanhippie]

11. Never said it did.

Used it as an analogy, but you knew that.

[sharesunited]

12. Your stats lack humanity. People are being unjustly executed upon the whim of the shooters.

And punishing the shooters is hardly a sufficient solution.

In fact, it is not even possible to punish them if they turn their guns on themselves as their finale.

Reducing the prevalence of the means of doing their harm is the only answer.

[spin]

56. You always fail to understand that armed civilians also stop crime ...

on a regular basis.

How Often Are Firearms Used in Self-Defense?

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

There is one study, the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 DGU's annually. Why the huge discrepancy between this survey and fourteen others?
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

So there are somewhere between 108,000 to 2.5 million times a year where a firearm is used to stop a crime. If I argue that firearms are good because of this statistic while I ignore the number of times firearms are used to commit crime, many would call me a fool. It might show that you have some wisdom if you apply the same standard to your argument.

Of course, you will say that if there were no firearms or ammunition there would be no problem. The same argument might apply to poverty. If there was no poverty, we would solve most of our problems. All we have to do is give every person in the country a million dollars and our society would be perfect.

[lawodevolution]

67. Suicide rates in the USA and Japan compared

Japan suicide rate: 24.4 per 100,000
USA suicide rate: 11.1 per 100,000

Japanese have the means to commit violence obviously and a gun ban.

[Euromutt]

76. It's uglier than that, actually

Part of why the official Japanese suicide rate is so high, and the homicide rate so low, is that an awfully large number of homicides get ruled suicides.

For example, in domestic murder-suicides, in which one or both of the parents kill one or more other family members and then themselves, all the dead are officially counted as suicides. So if some sarariman's wife kills her mother-in-law, two kids and finally herself, that's counted as four suicides.

Then there's the fact that the Japanese cops are quick to rule a death a suicide, because that allows them to close the case on the spot rather than have to conduct a criminal investigation (something at which Japanese cops are incompetent, which is why most criminal convictions in Japan rely on the defendant's confession, which is frequently tortured out of him). One particularly egregious example was of a young man who supposedly managed to tie both his ankles and wrists and then throw himself off a dam; his killer confessed over twenty years later, after the statute of limitations had expired.

[lawodevolution]

83. it seems logical that

countries with gun bans would try to lie about their murder rates.

[Pavulon]

73. And drunk drivers, sweet lord christ in high heels, ban the booze

ban it all. My wife sees more dead and soon to be dead from alcohol induced events than gun by a WIDE margin.

[rucky]

13. You're both off topic.

Which is about illegally trafficked guns used in crime. There's really shouldn't be that much difference in opinion about that.

[Odin2005]

9. So your personal anecdote is better than factual data?

The rate of violent crime in the US has gone down steadily since the early 90s.

[merqz]

14. Anti's HATE facts

The media defines their reality.

[Odin2005]

15. Yep. remember, anti-gun BS started because whites were scared of the BLACK PANTHERS.

Gun control has it's origins in Racism. God forbid minorities arm themselves.

[divideandconquer]

16. Nowdays fear of a black president drives gun sales!

[proteus_lives]

60. Notice how he doesn't deny the racist origins of what he loves so.

[Callisto32]

64. Bullshit.

Fear of a plank of the platform of the party to which that black President belongs drives gun sales.

I know that "they are all teh rezist!" is a lot easier, though.

[Katya Mullethov]

74. I think you mean red

"Fear of a red president has some people wrapped around the axle ".

[safeinOhio]

40. Why do cities with large Black populations

consistently vote for mayors that back stricter gun control? At the same time groups that are blatantly racist, like KKK, White supremacy orgs and right wing militia groups, consistently support radical views about the 2nd Amendment?

[Pavulon]

72. Because they have been bamboozled. They have been told gun control is help, thats a lie

the real fix would be to hard for the people we elect to enact. No one has the balls to legalize drugs and take other steps needed to stop gun violence.

Why is there no gun crime in telluride or Greenwich ct.

[safeinOhio]

82. Telluride Co.?

Small town of rich white folks might have something to do with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telluride,_Colorado

The median income for a household in the town was $51,938, and the median income for a family was $66,136.
The racial makeup of the town was 92.57% White,
Population in 2007, 2,360

I guess that would make a good comparison or model for DC or Chicago. Your opinion is that they are bamboozled? Why would that group be so bamboozled compared to other groups. :wtf:

[jazzhound]

79. Gee..........I dunno.

Why does such a large percentage of the U.S. population watch Faux News?

[RSillsbee]

86. Oh, it goes much, much, farther back than that my friend.

All the way back to Jim Crow and beyond

[slackmaster]

49. Maybe you watch too much TV and read too many sensationalistic blogs

Try turning your TV and your computer off.

[proteus_lives]

28. Shhh, they hate hearing that.

Ruins their fanfic.

[Yavapai]

63. You know of course, that

FBI stands for "Famous But Incompetent".

If you are ever in Washington DC, tour the FBI building and ask to see the "J. Edgar Hoover closet". It is well worth your time.

[Fla_Democrat]

18. 12,000 people per year are murdered with guns in the United States

The stakes are high: 12,000 people per year are murdered with guns in the United States.



Just so I can keep that in perspective... how many people die every year from smoking? :shrug:





:smoke:

[divideandconquer]

19. And only 200 cases of justifiable homicide per year

A little more perspective.

[Fla_Democrat]

20. So, don't know the answer?

:shrug:

[divideandconquer]

23. Dumb comparison, smoking is voluntary, murder is not

[Fla_Democrat]

27. Oh? They are forced to murder?

but, I believe the comparison is the numbers. As in just how big an issue is this? Last time I checked, cigaretts, available at any corner store was creditied with somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000 give or take.

[divideandconquer]

32. I haven't heard of anyone being murdered with a cigarette

More Americans have died from civilian guns in America than all our wars.

[Fla_Democrat]

33. *cough* second hand smoke *cough*

:smoke:

half a million per year vs 12K per year. Which is the bigger issue? Granted 12K is a lot in a country of what, 350ish million, but if it was possible to ban 1 item, how many more lives could be saved?


The simple truth is it's not about saving lives, if it was, there are much more efficient targets to go after. You know, more bang for the buck, as it were. It's about control and some people having the vapors about a fire arm. Nothing more, noting less.

[Bold Lib]

46. There are apx. 2 MILLION defensive gun uses per year by law abiding gun owners.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

[jazzhound]

81. And if he tries to disparage your source he can read

this and weep, since it reveals that two pro-"control" supporters came up with a figure of 1.5 million:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

[jazzhound]

80. A little more perspective? More like a little more spin........

...........since you (predictably) omit the number of defensive gun uses that take place every year without a discharge of the firearm.

[aikoaiko]

21. Bloomberg needs to police his little piece of turf if people are buying guns illegally there.

He wants to blame the exporters, but he needs to clean his own importer house.

[divideandconquer]

24. New York City, the safest large city and they want to keep it that way

A lot of the big drop in crime nationwide is due the good job New York has done. (Plus cellphones)

Why should the rest of nation suffer because of greedy gun pushers in Red states?

[aikoaiko]

26. If NY or any other state is "suffering" its because of the criminals in states buying illegal guns

Own your own problems.

[divideandconquer]

30. Any good cop traces the crime back to the source which is red states

New York City is owning the problem, sorry if it pisses on your pathetic parochial worldview that is rejected by the rest of the civilized world.

[aikoaiko]

36. Then why are New Yorkers buying so many illegal guns?

And for the record, if guns are illegally bought in other states they need to be prosecuted under existing laws.

It must be very sad for that you are losing on this issue. Courts and legislation are generally not following your or Bloomberg's "wisdom".

Why not do something meaningful with your life and join the NRA. lol.

[divideandconquer]

38. What advanced nation has weakened it gun laws recently? None!

America is an outlier, really an outlaw nation moving toward third world status. Proud of it? Once again New York City is a beacon of hope like it often has been in history,

[aikoaiko]

43. "an outlaw nation moving toward third world status" divide and attempt to conquer, indeed.

Sorry, but your and Bloomberg's attempt to create this culture war before a major election is transparent.

[spin]

57. The United States didn't reach its position in the world ...

by being like other nations.

We are different because the founding fathers were a uniquely brilliant group of rebels.

New York City has had draconian guns laws since the Sullivan Act passed in 1911. Crime peaked in the Big Apple in 1990. Since NYC had basically the same gun laws in 1990 as it does today, strict gun laws do not appear to the cause of the crime decrease.

This is only logical. Gun control hopes to take guns away from honest citizens, but honest citizens do not commit crime. Improved, proactive police measures directed at criminals is far more effective.

[divideandconquer]

77. And what position does the USA have? World's richest third world nation?

Biggest prison population? 35th in healthcare for all citizens? Highest murder rate of advanced nations.

[safeinOhio]

41. Perhaps,

the Commerce clause could be a tool to keep illegal guns out of other states if the statistics hold up?

[aikoaiko]

42. I'm not sure what you mean. isn't the commerce clause already used to justify federal gun laws?

Even when guns are made, bought, and used within the same state?

[Euromutt]

85. You mean make it doubly illegal to transfer firearms across state lines without an FFL?

You'll have to excuse me if I'm just a little skeptical about the effectiveness of that approach.

Besides, as I've pointed out elsewhere on this thread, if you look at absolute numbers of crime guns "exported," one of ten biggest exporters is California, the state rated by the Brady Campaign as having the "strongest" gun laws in the country.

[Euromutt]

84. Wrong; trafficking in firearms is a demand-driven industry

Traffickers run guns between states because there is a demand for those guns at their destination. "The source of the crime" is the people at the receiving end, who buy the guns from the traffickers, and then use them to commit violent crimes. Thinking that you can restrict gun crime by clamping down on the supply of guns is equivalent to thinking you can eradicate drug use by clamping down on the supply of drugs, and we've seen how well that particular strategy has worked over the past forty years.

And speaking as a citizen of one of those other countries that make up "the civilized world" in your mind, quit thinking you speak for me.

[ileus]

22. FMB

[The Straight Story]

29. The only people we should trust with guns are bush and others in govt

little people like you and me? We cannot be trusted.

[divideandconquer]

31. The Bush regime was the most pro gun in history, it obviously was no threat to them

And yes I don't trust you with a gun, why would I trust a non vetted person with a gun?

[PavePusher]

34. Why trust ANY "non-vetted" person with ANY potentially dangerous object?

As usual, bring on the nanny state....

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneshooter]

44. Firearms are very regulated.

By the Feds from manufacture to wholesalers to dealers to retail. By State, county, and city from dealer to private ownership. There are an estimated 20,000 laws regulating the manufacture, sale, and possession of firearms.

What else would you have?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

54. Huh, what did I miss? n/t

[oneshooter]

45. So is.....

" the right of the people to keep and bear arm, shall not be infringed"

You got a problem with it?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[RSillsbee]

48. Well Regulated

From Federalist 29 written by Alexander Hamilton http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss.

This passage makes it fairly clear that the founders understood the words "well regulated" to mean well versed or well trained.

The "well regulated" argument is disingenuous at best I generally veiw it as the last gasp of a hard core gun hater

[RSillsbee]

47. the most pro gun in history

How does one quantify this? I seem to remember Bush said that he would sign an AWB if congress presented it to him.

[Euromutt]

78. Yeah, I was wondering about that as well

Any administration that preceded the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968 would count as more "pro-gun" than either Bush administration.

[oneshooter]

50. Mayhaps I am a little slow.........

But would you describe to me your term"non-vetted"

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[jazzhound]

52. I would say that you are non-vetted to discuss the

guns/violence issue by virtue of your contempt for facts, and the assumptions you make.

As those who lack the factose-intolerance gene are aware, many citizen shooters are more proficient with their firearms than officers -- no slam to officers intended. As many police officers will tell you, there is a fairly large percentage of officers who don't spend the time on the range that they should.

[lawodevolution]

68. So you think bush should have had control of all the guns

Or the next bush?

[Euromutt]

35. Isn't it interesting that the HuffPo piece talks about "rates"?

Because in an article on this same report in The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/17151375?story_id=17151375), the worst offenders (in absolute numbers of crime guns recovered that turned out to be from that state) are listed as Arizona, California, Georgia, Florida, Indiana, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas and Virginia.

Yes, that's right: California. Ranked by the Brady Campaign as having the strongest state-level firearms laws of all 50 states (http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/CA/).

Of course, if you look at the states listed in The Economist's article, you'll notice they include a lot of the most populous states: California, Texas, Florida, Ohio. Basically, the number of "exported" crime guns correlates more strongly to a state's population than to the stringency of its firearm laws. Of course, that isn't the finding MAIG wanted. Ah, but when you adjust the number of exported crime guns by the size of the state's population, you produce a much stronger correlation between the "rate" of exported crime guns and the laxity of the state's gun laws!

But that raises the question: what reason is there to calculate the "rate" of exported crime guns, other than that it produces the correlation that fits the publishing organization's agenda? Why are the numbers of crime guns exported from Mississippi (1,485), West Virginia (852), and Kentucky (1,504) supposedly a bigger problem than the numbers exported from California (1,772), Pennsylvania (1,777) or Florida (2,640)?

[divideandconquer]

37. California is the largest state by far so it makes sense

[slackmaster]

51. So, the problem is actually caused by people

Not by gun laws or lack thereof.

[jazzhound]

53. Your non-response to post #35 is duly noted, and

thanks for the belly-laugh.

California has produced more senseless gun legislation that any other state --- and the trend continues to this day.

[Euromutt]

69. Why does it makes sense?

Why does the size of the population of a state make a difference to incidents that occur outside that state? I mean, we can just as readily turn the equation around and say that the larger the population of the state, the smaller the population of the other 49 states, and therefore, more people are potentially affected per crime gun that gets exported.

To illustrate:
Estimated population U.S., 2009: 307 million
Estimated population CA 2009: 37 million
Estimated population MS, 2009: 3 million

So, in the case of guns from California, there are (307m - 37m =) 270 million people potentially affected by 1,772 exported guns, for an "import rate" (into the other 49 states) of 0.656 guns/100,000 non-Californians.
In the case of Mississippi, there are (307m - 3m =) 304 million people potentially affected by 1,485 exported guns, for an "import rate" of 0.489/100,000.

If this seems like spurious logic, I'll point out it's no more spurious than MAIG's "export rate," and arguably less so. It just shows that you can "prove" just about anything if you twiddle the numbers enough.

[gravity556]

58. Easy there, Euromutt

You're mucking up the spin. You can't go interjecting a good "Guns BAAAAAAAAD!" thread with reality. What the hell's wrong with you?

I also liked the Brady's recent little "sting" where they sent some goober out to buy guns at various gun shows in different states, committing felonies on video. Somehow, goober managed to escape any charges. Seems gun laws don't apply to agents acting to show how lax gun laws are. Apparently, the plan was "Demonstrate how easy it is to buy firearms at out of state gun shows by lying to sellers." Even though purchasing a firearm from, well, ANYONE if you aren't a resident of that state is a felony and can, if you then transport those guns, also become trafficking. And since someone else was supplying the cash (the brady bunch of idiots), a violation of the whole straw purchaser laws (also a felony) also applies. Apparently, it's perfectly acceptable for a non-law enforcement agency to violate federal gun laws if they're doing it to make a point.

[rrneck]

59. From the website referenced by Bloomberg in the OP...

http://www.tracetheguns.org/#/laws/1/

Trace the Guns has a spiffy website with a clickable map that pinpoints states with various gun laws or their lack. Here are the laws that the site advocates:

Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun for Someone who Can't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase
Firearms and alcohol purchase

In the context of United States federal gun laws, a straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not. In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor. One of the questions on form 4473 is “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no, by checking the appropriate box in ink. However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted.<1>

Allows Criminal Penalties for Buying a Gun with False Information

Transferees certification on form 4473 federal firearms transfer application. Note the lack of any "best of my knowledge" escape clause.

http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf
I certify that the above answers are true and correct. I understand that answering “yes” to question 12a when I am not the actual buyer of the firearm is a crime punishable as a felony. I understand that a person who answers “yes” to any of the questions 12b through 12k is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm. I understand that a person who answers “yes” to question 12l is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm, unless the person also answers “yes” to question 13. I also understand that making any false oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction, is a crime punishable as a felony. I further understand that the repetitive purchase of firearms for the purpose of resale for livelihood and profit without a Federal firearms license is a violation of law.

Allows Criminal Penalties for Selling a Gun without a Proper Background Check

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states force individual sellers to sell through dealers.

Open NICS to private citizens. Why do we need a redundant state law? Why should some corporation profit from regulatory activity? Another example of the privatization of government to benefit of corporate profits.

Requires Background Checks for all Handgun Sales at Gun Shows
Open NICS to private citizens. Why do we need a redundant state law? Why should some corporation profit from regulatory activity? Another example of the privatization of government to fatten corporate profits at the expense of the taxpayer.


Requires Purchase Permit for All Handgun Sales
Permit issued by who and why? See form 4473 above.

Grants Law Enforcement Discretion in Issuing Concealed Carry Permits
Grants law enforcement prejudice without remedy.

Prohibits Violent Misdemeanor Criminals from Possessing Guns
Not a bad idea. Change the requirements on form 4473

Requires Reporting Lost or Stolen Guns to Law Enforcement
Why? If the crime gun was found or stolen the trace will end at the last legal owner who will say they lost it or it was stolen. If they find the person who used the crime gun and the last legal owner reports that it was stolen, add a charge of theft or possession of stolen property.

Allows Inspections of Gun Dealers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

They appear to be advocating a mixed bag of redundant or unnecessary laws at the state and local level. Why would they do that? Ideological reasons might be a firearms ban by excessive regulation. Economic reasons might be Bloomberg has a financial relationship with corporations like Bass Pro Shops or Cabala's who would profit from requirements that taxpayers pay them for access to NICS. Maybe it's just political grandstanding by leveraging a wedge issue. He doesn't have much credibility in my book since he contributed more money to Republicans than Democrats, including George W. Bush and John McCain.

This petty, shortsighted ideological bullshit needs to stop. If we spent half as much time using government to make this a better country for the people who live in it as we spent using government to slap people around because of our own prejudices we might survive as a post empire nation. The pity is that this business of a constant witch hunt for cat turds in our ideological sandbox costs Democrats elections because it is such a transparent effort. How are we supposed to build a coalition of real working people when we view them with such disdain? The notion that a billionaire technocrat deserves any credibility on this issue or any other is absurd. He is using a wedge issue for personal profit, and people like the OP trot right along after him like lemmings.

"divideandconquer" indeed.

Edited for lack of coffee.

[Euromutt]

70. Yeah, I was going to remark on that, too

The fact is, of course, that every state already has laws against straw purchasing, purchasing a gun with false information, etc. and laws that provide for the inspection of FFLs, because those are already federal law and thus apply in all states. And therefore, having these laws replicated at a state would be--as you rightly note, rrneck--redundant.

It seems to me that MAIG is trying to foster the false impression that there are states where straw purchasing is not illegal and where FFLs aren't subject to inspection.

[SteveM]

61. Day late, dollar short. This is old, and has been posted before. nt

[old mark]

88. This is more of Bloomberg's nonsense - enforce the straw purchase laws

already on the books.

Adding new laws while not enforcing existing laws with the same effect is
pointless and stupid...oh, wait, it's politics!!!


mark