The facts support law on ‘campus carry’

[Bold Lib]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7239700.html

As a civilized society, we naturally find the notion of allowing guns on college campuses to be counterintuitive. Guns are associated with irrational violence, and college campuses are associated with rational thought. Keeping the two separated seems like a matter of common sense.

But counterintuitive doesn't always equal wrong, and as Albert Einstein reportedly said, "Common sense is nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down by the mind before you reach 18." To resolve the debate over "campus carry," we must put aside our prejudices and look at the facts.



I like that quote of Einstein's. I'll have to remember that one.

[msongs]

1. 6 year olds have a right to carry guns at school. so do terrorists on airplanes nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. No they don't.

Many different laws prohibit this.
And I see no one advocating the arming of "6 year olds" or "terrorists on airplanes".

What was the point of your post?

[slackmaster]

4. Straw Man Fallacy

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person....

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[spin]

14. If that argument was original it might be worth replying to...

sadly it is a worn out old shoe.

[PavePusher]

21. Yes Virginia, you can extrapolate to infinity...

if you want to look stupid in public.

And by repeating your mantra over and over, you simply appear to be four years old. How's that working out for you? Winning strategy on the debate team, eh?

[SteveM]

43. "r-r-r-RI-I-I-IP" went the hippo, just at the waterline. Mud everywhere! nt

[lawodevolution]

3. The problem you will encounter here are the individuals

Who may have had lead poisoning or malnutrition before age 2 or may have had an Apgar score below 3 at birth who simply cannot understand that small children do not have the right to bear arms even if you explain it to them 50 times.

They will post snark and ignorant comments about issuing 6 year olds 9 mm. No matter how many times you explain reality to them they will continue the same idiotic comments.

Campus carry would only allow a person who is 21 to carry on campus legally who has a license, but certain posters will still make the give all the 5 year olds guns and 5 year olds have 2nd amendment rights posts making you wonder if they are in fact 5 years old mentally.

[sharesunited]

5. Access to guns and ammo-- their very availability and presence-- is a Pandora's box.

If 21 year olds are walking around with guns, their 6yo nephews will get their hands on them.

Why try to pretend that you can prevent that by talking about who does and doesn't have the right?

Guns and ammo just need to be made scarce. Not more abundant. Not more accessible.

[TheWraith]

7. So you'd prefer we guarantee that only people acting criminally have guns.

Because creating a black market for something that is widely desired and should be legal worked out SO WELL with alcohol prohibition and the war on drugs.

[X_Digger]

8. He thinks illicit drugs are scarce..

Obviously, there's a link missing in his logic chain.

[SteveM]

44. No scarcity here. 4:20 approaches ever relentlessly. nt

[sharesunited]

10. Alcohol and drugs are consumable products which are not intended to be used against other people.

Huge difference.

[X_Digger]

11. Yet they do.. drunk drivers killed 13,846 people in 2008

More people than were killed by guns in the same year.

[TheWraith]

12. Plus the fact that probably about 75% of murders in the US stem from the drug trade. nt

[lawodevolution]

18. Are you sure SU?

"5. Access to guns and ammo-- their very availability and presence-- is a Pandora's box."

Did you even bother to read the information in this thread explaining how living in a nation with a low gun ownership rate results in a higher chance of being murdered.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=339915&mesg_id=339915

Tell me, sharesunited, what drives your shameful disregard for the facts and data? Could it be that gun hate is kind of like a religion for you and that your blind faith makes it so you can't see reason or do you benefit from the gun control movement?

[RSillsbee]

30. This time shares is 100% correct

Or at least his analogy is. Access to firearms is a Pandora’s Box (Or Pandora Spocks for all you Bewitched fans) and once the box is open you can’t go back.

Tell us Shares, with over 300 million guns in the United States alone and 14 million being added to the inventory every year, how do you intend to make guns scarce?

How do you intend to halt manufacture of firearms? What do you intend to do with those persons who who’s skill set includes firearm production? What incentive do you plan to offer them not to illegally make guns when your outright ban drives the price of their product through the roof?

Wouldn’t a more tenable solution be addressing the underlying issues that drive crime?

Spelling error

[sharesunited]

36. Is halting the production of child pornography a current, viable public policy?

Which harms children more?

Photography or bullets?

[RSillsbee]

37. I asked you several very direct questions

Care to answer them instead of deflecting from them?

1.how do you intend to make guns scarce?

2.How do you intend to halt manufacture of firearms?

3.What do you intend to do with those persons who who’s skill set includes firearm production?

4.What incentive do you plan to offer them not to illegally make guns when your outright ban drives the price of their product through the roof?

5.Wouldn’t a more tenable solution be addressing the underlying issues that drive crime?


added questions in case shares forgot

[sharesunited]

38. Deflect THIS Pedro.

1.how do you intend to make kiddie porn scarce? (Public policy against its production and distribution.)

2.How do you intend to halt manufacture of kiddie porn? (Adoption of public policy which condemns it and sanctions against it.)

3.What do you intend to do with those persons whose skill set includes firearm production? (There was an entire private-sector bail bond industry in Illinois until 1-1-1962, when it was abolished. Imagine that. With a governor's signature, poof. Because the "industry" was deemed unwholesome.)

4.What incentive do you plan to offer them not to illegally make kiddie porn when your outright ban drives the price of their product through the roof? (Avoidance of prison time and lifetime enrollment on the sex offender registry?)

5.Wouldn’t a more tenable solution be addressing the underlying issues that drive crime? (Indirect solutions are of course welcome. But making the means of violent crime less available is a direct solution.)

[rrneck]

39. How do

you defend yourself against assault with kiddie porn?

[rrneck]

41. And about that bail bond industry...

There was an entire private-sector bail bond industry in Illinois until 1-1-1962, when it was abolished. Imagine that. With a governor's signature, poof. Because the "industry" was deemed unwholesome.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=404&invol=357

Illinois law provides three ways in which an accused can secure his pretrial release: (1) personal recognizance; (2) execution of a bail bond, with a deposit of 10% of the bail, all but 10% of which (amounting to 1% of the bail) is returned on performance of the bond conditions, and (3) execution of a bail bond, secured by a full-amount deposit in cash, authorized securities, or certain real estate, all of which is returned on performance of the bond conditions.

(3) Under 110-8 he may execute a bail bond and secure it by a deposit with the clerk of the full amount of the bail in cash, or in stocks and bonds authorized for trust funds in Illinois, or by unencumbered nonexempt Illinois real estate worth double the amount of the bail. 5 When bail is made in this way and the conditions of <404 U.S. 357, 362> the bond have been performed, the clerk returns the deposit of cash or stocks or bonds, or releases the real estate, as the case may be, without charge or retention of any amount.

In each case bail is fixed by a judicial officer. Section 110-5 prescribes factors to be considered in fixing the amount of bail. 6 Under 110-6 either the State or the defendant may apply to the court for an increase or for a reduction in the amount of bail or for alteration of the bond's conditions. 7

So the bail bond industry went poof into the hands of the county court clerk. So, if your analogy is accurate, you are advocating the distribution of firearms by government rather than by private industry. When do I get my AR15 from the county?

[RSillsbee]

42. My name is Bob (Robert actually) not PEDRO

And I'll take this as a "No I don't want to answer your question."

You can’t just wave a magic wand and “make guns scarce” as long as the technology to manufacture them exists and craftsman who know how to make use of that technology, people will have guns. If you ever succeed in getting rid of them people will simply revert to other weapons. (Rome conquered the known world W/ out guns) And you’ll bring on a system of government by force

[Bold Lib]

31. A pandora's box that allows for the apx TWO MILLION defensive uses of guns every year

by lawful gun owners.
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

[Better Today]

6. Y'know, IF college life was in fact a place of rational thought,

you might have a point. Though I am pro-gun rights w/ regulations, I am against carrying guns on college campuses for the reason that the facts are, college students (regardless of the campus) tend to spend a great deal of time drinking and partying wherein fights often break out. That's where I'm afraid the guns won't mix in well. If the campuses allow guns, then these students partying are more likely to be carrying when they arrive at off campus bashes.

[shadowrider]

9. Yea, it's so much better for another Va. Tech to occur. Ya know, just ONE student

With a weapon MIGHT HAVE stopped the carnage.

[Better Today]

13. I understand that perspective. It's definitely a point, but

it doesn't kill my point. There in a nutshell is why this particular gun issue is one of the more difficult to find a "correct" side. There are points good and bad. I think I give my point more weight simply because the partying is a weekly, nay daily for some students, thing. Shootings like the VAT occurrence are not. So I'm imagining, though we won't know till after the facts are in some years from now, that we may lose annually more students from guns on campus that are also carried to parties than we lose/lost from single shooter on-campus incidents annually.

If given the opportunity, I would vote against guns on campus being allowed. If the allowance were passed anyway, I wouldn't protest it or anything, I'd wait and see what happened. I realize that with this issue, we won't know till we know.

[X_Digger]

20. There are campuses that do allow concealed carry

So there is a measure of 'wait and see' that you can look to:

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-02-20/us/cnnu.guns_1_current-gun-laws-utah-legislature-campus?_s=PM:US

Since 2007 or so (not that familiar with UT laws), qualified students there have been able to carry concealed.

[Better Today]

23. Qualified students being the key. I can agree with that variety of

regulation upon the situation. Hopefully that qualification system is above and beyond most states' general carry requirements.

[X_Digger]

25. Nope, same requirements.

-over 21
-clean background check
-never been adjudicated mentally incompetent
-never been an addict
-pass a class

There is no special 'college' license in UT, and yet, there haven't been any incidents.

[Better Today]

28. Nonetheless, I still think that some extra qualifications should be

from the standpoint that there are unique issues on college campuses. Just my opinion.

Then I also have to wonder about something, not saying I have an answer. Here we still have no carry, and the "campus" officially covers a whole bunch of neighborhoods in the area. And I'm in freeperland pretty much, and there are 5-10 student brawls worthy of the news each year. And my college wasn't UT it was Texas A&M. Somehow, I'm thinking that is flavoring my opinion here a tad. If I recall correctly UT is a pretty mellow, liberal college. Places like A&M at the time I went (it was just beginning to allow women), and the state unis here, are not the same attitude that UT is. But you can't make rules that fluctuate based on the flavor of the school, so I would be way supportive of additional qualifications for a special permit.

[X_Digger]

34. Are adult students in UT much more responsible?

If you look at permit holders in Texas, they're a rather law abiding group.



This graph shows a comparison between CHL holders and the general public over 21 years of age. I calculated the rate of crime convictions of the public members > 21 per 100,000 general public > 21 to the rate of CHL holder convictions > 21 per 100,000 CHL holders.

I think a lot gets lost in this discussion because many seem to think that we're talking about 18 year olds. We're not. They're adult students, some of whom will live on campus, some of whom will not. Some will have previous military experience, some will not.

[Better Today]

35. That's exactly the question, and I don't see your post as giving an

answer. At first blush, perhaps, but until a comparison is done college to college, not college to general public, I'm not convinced.

[SteveM]

45. Both Dylan Klebold and his Dad agreed on opposing Colorado's CCW law...

when it was proposed just before his Columbine killings.

I rather suspect for different reasons.

[lawodevolution]

15. You must be talking about a different type of university than the one I went to because

When I was in the dorm I never once saw a fight; however, when I was off campus there were plenty of parties yet still no serious fights apart from arguments and a few students had guns legally.

[Better Today]

17. What I'm saying is that if guns are allowed on campus, more dormers

will have guns to carry off campus. I agree with what you're saying, on-campus would be one thing, if it was somehow restricted to that, though that seems a bizarre way to handle my concern. However, when one's housing arrangement disallows guns, then it's much harder to have one to just carry off campus. Clearly off-campus dwellers are a moot point to my concerns as they already have guns off-campus if they desire.

[RSillsbee]

32. I think there's a point you're missing

The intent of this law is to allow the law abiding to carry weapons on campus. People who have concealed hand gun permits tend to be a pretty law abiding group in general and statistically they don't seem to be given to shooting up drunken college parties in the first place.

CU allows CC on campus and has yet to log a single negative incident

[spin]

16. You could always create a new college carry permit ...

In order to have one, you would have to be a employee of the college or school with training applicable to previous school shootings and the psychology of shooters.

I personally believe that, at a minimum, off duty police officers who are attending classes should be allowed to carry.

The bottom line is that declaring schools and colleges gun free zones makes them attractive to mass murderers. We don't have to arm everybody, we don't even have to let students carry - but we should allow qualified people to carry on campus.

[Better Today]

19. Absolutely, I guess I just assumed that if carrying on campus they had

appropriate Carry Permits and all the training that goes with. I also love the idea of adding additional training and certification specific to campus issues. Even police officers should be required to get the enhanced training before they can carry. What a great solution. I could totally live with it.

[PavePusher]

26. Why?

What issues are specific to a campus but not to off-campus?

[PavePusher]

24. If you can demonstrate that there is a problem among college-age CC'ers off-campus...

then you have a talking point.

But conjecture and hypotheticals repeatedly fail to come true in this meme.

[Texasborncowboy]

22. First post, go easy on me.

A point a lot of people seem to miss in this discussion is the age to obtain a carry permit. How many college students are 21 or older? I think the vast majority of college students are under 21 and not allowed to own a handgun much less carry one.

[PavePusher]

27. Many (most?) states, you may own a hand-gun at age 18.

You just can't get one through a Federally licenced dealer. Which means that by law they can't go through a NICS check. How stupid is that?

[Bold Lib]

33. Welcome to DU. You've got it mostly right but not completely.

Most states that issue CCLs do require the person to be at least 21 years of age so that negates any 18 year olds from carrying on campus. But, there is no federal that prohibits a person 18 to 21 from owning or possessing a handgun. They cannot purchase one from a FFL but they can be given one by a close relative or possibly buy one in a private transaction.

A side note. An 18 year old cannot purchase a suppressor on a Form 4 but CAN build their own on a Form 1.

[Texasborncowboy]

40. Thanks, glad to be here

I've been lurking for what seems like decade.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that very few students would be carrying legally. It would be mostly employees of the University and seniors/grad students. Much more mature than your average freshman.

I get the impression that those without much knowledge on the subject are shouting "OMG, Drunken freshman and sophomores packing a gun. Blood in the streets blah blah blah".

The law can be funny huh? I recall some odd alcohol laws a few decades ago. It was 18 for beer and 21 for the hard stuff. 18 year olds could go to a bar but only drink beer. I was 17 when they raised everything to 21.

[spin]

49. I find it strange that an 18 year old can join the military and be trained ...

in how to use many very powerful weapons including real assault rifles that actually are fully automatic and yet people are concerned about 21 year old college students who have passed all the requirements and have a concealed carry permit being allowed to carry his weapon on a college campus.

Is there something unusual about a college campus that would turn a person who was safe and responsible carrying a firearm in public outside the campus into a crazed murderer if he was allowed to carry on campus?

If a college professor had a license to carry outside the campus and frequently did so, why would his carrying a firearm on campus be so dangerous?

How does a law that prohibits carrying a firearm on a college campus deter a shooter who is looking for a shooting gallery so that he can rack up a high score of kills before he is finally stopped?

[TheWraith]

29. Hmm.

"Guns are associated with irrational violence, and college campuses are associated with rational thought."

That runs contrary to my experiences with both guns and college campuses. :D

[kdt]

46. alarming

Guns on campus is just asking for way too much trouble, especially among the extremists.

[rrneck]

47. What extrremists are those?

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Bold Lib]

48. I like this one especially for the Einstein quote.