over 14,000 weapons permits issued

[MichaelHarris]

issued in the second quarter of 2010 in Ohio and not one of them stopped this: "A gunman shot a woman dead in her sport-utility vehicle in the parking lot of an Ohio manufacturing plant Friday, then went inside and killed a man before being hit with a stun gun and apprehended a few blocks away, police said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/22/AR2010102205108.html

The 14,000 permit holders were just the number for the last quarter of 2010, the number of permit holders in Ohio is much, much higher. http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/files/Publications/Publications-for-Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry-Publications/Concealed-Carry-Statistics/2010-Q2-Concealed-Carry-Stats

Choose any state that allows concealed carry then compare the violent crime numbers to the actual number of times a concealed weapon permit holder used said weapon. Now in just a few minutes someone is going to tell you that there are over 2 million defensive uses of a firearm this year. After you stop laughing, make sure they know there are not that many in Iraq and there's a war going on there.

[friendly_iconoclast]

1. And not one cop stopped him, either. So what's your point, Michael?

Is this going to be a new strawman?: "OMG, CWP holders didn't stop this crime! So all those permits are useless" (according to some

previously unknown and unexplained metric that only the poster of the OP is privy to...).


Or were you laboring under the misconception that CWP holders are some variety of auxiliary police?


(Added on edit) I am also reccing this so that others may become familiar with your, ahem, "work".

[TPaine7]

2. You realize that Iraq is smaller than the USA, right? Ok, back to your regularly scheduled

condescension.

[MichaelHarris]

3. Ok

Iraq and Afghanistan combined, does that work for you? Combined they still have less than 2 million defensive uses. The 2 million guys will be here soon, wait til you see their sources. I'm already chuckling a little.

[TPaine7]

5. Please cite your sources.

Combined they still have less than 2 million defensive uses.

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. You've yet to explain what weapons permits have to do with the case in the OP

As far as I can see, there is no connection- but it makes for a snarky remark.

[TPaine7]

4. How do you propose the comparison be made?

Choose any state that allows concealed carry then compare the violent crime numbers to the actual number of times a concealed weapon permit holder used said weapon.

How? Who knows the "actual number of times a concealed weapon permit holder used said weapon"?

How do you propose the comparison be made? Are you offering to lend out your ouija board?

[MichaelHarris]

6. hell if I

know, ask the gun forum guys who keep tossing out the 2 million number. They'll be here shortly. Funny, I never saw you ask them for their sources when they posted that 2 million number.

[Euromutt]

41. It might help if you didn't have the very people on ignore who could provide a documented answer

Like me. When you put people on "ignore" and then proclaim that nobody can answer your challenges, when in fact they do, I hope the rest of humanity is smart enough to see that the only person who's left looking like an idiot is you.

[SteveM]

46. Good one! I guess Michael is not familiar with the Texas/Florida studies...

...but how could he if he puts the whole notion of debate on 'ignore?'

[Glassunion]

48. .

[rrneck]

8. Didn't stop this either.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/10/22/Plane-crash-in-California-kills-three/UPI-98851287750775/

While you're at it, please provide the names and addresses of everyone that went down on the Lusitania.

[oneshooter]

9. They seemed to help

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=344953&mesg_id=344953

And possibly here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x344874

I am sure that if you apply yourself even you can find others.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

10. Was the plant a GFZ?

Bet you $5 it was...

[Pavulon]

11. This has as much to do with my right to own a firearm as the number of abortions has to

do with roe v wade or the number of blacks graduating with college degrees has to do with brown.. you lost, take your football and go home.

2 supreme court cases put you square in the mix with the people picketing the womens clinic, enjoy your company.

[Xmit]

12. Even though

Even though your straw man is bullshit, lets dissect;

ONE (1), incident representative of 14,000?

Are you reaching for nothing, maybe?

[spin]

13. I have a concealed weapons permit and I haven't stopped even one crime ...

and I sincerely hope that I never will.

I am not a cop and I definitely am not a vigilante. I don't hang around parking lots hoping to stop an attack on somebody in a car.

It's very difficult to come up with an accurate estimate of how many times firearms are used for legitimate self defense. Still, I don't believe that you would deny that it does happen.

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

There is one study, the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 DGU's annually. Why the huge discrepancy between this survey and fourteen others? emphasis added
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

For kicks and grins let's cut through all the debate on the number and just accept the lowest figure of 108,000. Even you might agree that many murders, rapes and robberies are stopped by armed citizens. Surely you are not so fixated on your dislike of gun ownership and so heartless that you would rather that the criminals would have been able to do their will without resistance.

[MichaelHarris]

14. I have

no problem with gun ownership, I own quite a few. I have a problem with those who come to DU and make up stats like the 2 million number. It was used 3 or 4 times in the gun forum last week and not one of you discredited it. Where were you when your own forum members were promoting the 2 million number?

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. So, what's with the OP? Gun owners aren't members of some unofficial SWAT team.

For that matter, no one expects you or anyone else to act in that capacity.



As an aside:


I did notice that the anti meme concerning concealed weapons permits has now evolved from

"There'll be blood on the streets!" into "Those permit holders aren't stopping crimes!"



No wonder you lot are fast becoming as irrelevant as the Women's Christian Temperance Union.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Our own? What, are we segregated to the gungeon now?

That number is much-debated, and hopefully everyone knows it. I personally find it to be quite inflated. I know only 2 people that have used a firearm defensively in their LIVES outside a gun-related occupation, such as a police officer.

I didn't see the alleged posts you are describing. If I do, I will say something.

In the meantime, aren't you more or less admitting this thread was a callout?

[spin]

36. I personally feel that the 2 million number is accurate ...

but proving or disproving such an estimate is difficult at the best.

The various estimates range from 108,000 to 2.5 million. I picked the lowest as an example to suggest that a number of crimes are prevented by firearm ownership and consequently many people who may have been severely injured or murdered survive an violent encounter. By using this low estimate, I feel that I avoided a pointless argument on the technical aspects of surveys.

But this low estimate has problems of it own.

There is one study, the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 DGU's annually. Why the huge discrepancy between this survey and fourteen others?

Dr. Kleck's Answer

Why is the NCVS an unacceptable estimate of annual DGU's? Dr. Kleck states, "Equally important, those who take the NCVS-based estimates seriously have consistently ignored the most pronounced limitations of the NCVS for estimating DGU frequency. The NCVS is a non-anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to respondents as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge. Respondents are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact. In short, it is made very clear to respondents that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the respondents and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be recontacted."
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

My daughter worked as Census worker in this year's Census and I know she found getting any information from many people a very difficult and challenging task. There had been rumors that the Census was going to ask if people owned firearms. This rumor was false, but many people believed it and to a great extent this was one reason that made my daughters job difficult.

But the bottom line, whether the DGU figure is 108,000 or 2,500,000, is that firearms can and do deter crime and sometimes save lives. The same is true of legally concealed weapons, but I suspect at a lower rate than firearms used for home defense.

I am not one of the people who believe that the mere fact that people are allowed to carry concealed weapons causes a dramatic drop in the violent crime rate. In some places, allowing concealed carry might cause a drop but there are many factors to consider. I personally believe that better, more proactive police work does far more to reduce the violent crime rate than concealed carry. Still the fact remains that in many situations, people use concealed weapons to stop a violent criminal attack that could have resulted in serious injury or death.

It's also likely that a mugger who attacks an armed individual on the street and finds himself looking down the barrel of a gun, will decide to change his criminal area of expertise to a different crime. Of course, the wise predator may just learn to be very selective about his future prey.

If firearm ownership is common in a city, wise criminals often avoid breaking into occupied homes. It's not difficult to determine if someone is home before making entry and nothing can ruin a criminals day faster than an angry homeowner with a 12 gauge shotgun.

I have to admit that I always thought that allowing concealed carry would lead to far more problems than it has. It just makes commonsense. But it looks as if I was wrong. Florida has issued 1,858,018 in the time frame from 10/1/87 to 09/30/10. (Currently 761,706 are valid.) Only 168 permits have been revolked for a crime involving a firearm after the license was issued.
Source - Florida Concealed Weapon / Firearm Summary Report
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

[PavePusher]

15. How many CCW people per square mile in Ohio?

Can you guarantee one will be within helping distance?

Have you volunteered to provide round-the-clock security for anyone other than yourself?

Have you found that AK-shooter in Idaho yet?

Are you done playing the fool? (Except I strongly suspect you are not "playing"...)

[Xmit]

16. Give me a solution instead of rhetoric

I live near Madison WI, of the most liberal and gun hating burgs in the country. This is what I see every day;

http://www.channel3000.com/news/25474809/detail.html
http://www.channel3000.com/news/25461320/detail.html
http://www.channel3000.com/news/25448014/detail.html
http://www.channel3000.com/news/25444975/detail.html
http://www.channel3000.com/news/25444438/detail.html
http://www.channel3000.com/news/25436452/detail.html
http://www.channel3000.com/news/25440375/detail.html

All within the last few, or weeks. What should these people do to protect themselves?

[PavePusher]

19. Politics be damned.

The law in Wisconsin says you may carry for self-defense. I recommend that more people do so.

[safeinOhio]

26. 32 states have a higher

gun death rate than WI. 18 have less.

Texas and Florida with much fewer restrictions have a higher rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Washington has fewer restrictions too, and we score better than WI.

Feel free to explain.

[safeinOhio]

34. Must be the rain.

[spin]

40. Florida's crime problem ...

Why is the violent crime rate up?

February 25, 2007

On Feb. 19, the front page of The Gainesville Sun asked the question: Why is the violent crime rate up? The question should be: Why is the violent crime rate not higher than it is?

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure it out; all the answers were in the article. Among the factors driving crime rates in Florida (and Alachua County) are education, drugs and politics.

Lack of education provides the foot soldiers that connect the drug cartels and producers to the "responsible" recreational users. The state claims a graduation rate of 71 percent, a number inflated by including those who obtain special diplomas or a GED in the totals.

A high school diploma represents the minimal skills required for successful participation in the workforce and society. As many as 40 percent of Florida students leaving school are not high school graduates.

We can see where many go by taking a look at the population of Florida's prisons. In 2006 the median education level of our 88,576 prison inmates was the sixth grade. This number tells an even more tragic story when held under a magnifying glass.
http://www.gatelessgate.org/archive/kc/violent_crime_rate/index.php

But that leads to a question. What effect has passing shall issue concealed carry had on the murder rate?



And since you mentioned Texas...



Note: there are many factors involved in reducing the murder rate and concealed carry is just one. However it should be obvious that allowing people to carry concealed did not increase the murder rate.

Graph source: http://justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

edited to add graphs

[spin]

39. In some of your examples ...

clerks in stores are robbed. Convenience stores are where the dumb criminals and druggies go. Obviously the best solution for a person concerned with protecting himself is to avoid working in such stores. At the least, try not to make a career out of such employment.

Much depends on the individual situation in such a robbery. If the robber is only looking to steal money and the clerk is sure of it, the wise clerk will just give up the cash. In Florida, if the employer allowed it, the clerk might get a concealed weapons permit, carry a firearm, and have a chance to fight back if the situation warranted it. Chances are that the employer will not allow an employee to carry in his store because of liability concerns. If I had to work in the store, I would carry anyhow. (Many owners in Florida carry in their store and a good number who do - carry openly which is legal in your own store.)

But you live in a RKBA unfriendly state. Concealed carry is not a option. I'm not sure if the owner can have a firearm available in his store, perhaps near the cash register. Wisconsin is an open carry state, so the owner might be allowed to carry a holstered firearm. Much probably depends on the law in Madison.

I would suggest that a person interested in protecting himself go to a martial arts class with a reputable instructor. Many self defense tactics are simple and effective and can be preformed by almost everybody. A good course also teaches "situational awareness" a technique that makes you more alert to possible threats in your environment. The best way to survive a fight is not to be there.

"Situational awareness" might have helped the elderly woman whose purse was stolen by the teenager in another of your examples. If she had noticed the teenager hanging out near her car, she might have placed her purse inside before she started loading her groceries.

It could be argued that "patience is a prime virtue" in the case of the man attacked in the parking lot of the McDonald's Restaurant. Had he waited patiently in line, nothing would have happened. If the frustration became too much for him, he might of just drove away to another restaurant. Let's say that the man lived in a more gun friendly state and pulled in front of another customer starting a fight in which he used a firearm in self defense, serious questions would be asked. It's not a good idea to provoke a fight and then claim self defense.

One of your links is to a story involving the arrest of a drug dealer and another on a home invasion that might possibly been drug related. My advice to the people involved in these situations is to avoid drugs and dealing. If you go around looking for trouble, trouble will find you.

The incident involving the strong arm robbery of the high school students appears to have been handled properly by school security and law enforcement.

Welcome to DU.

[lawodevolution]

18. What is the point?

You are trying to use an anecdote to prove a trend or lack of a trend. For example, if you hated fire extinguishers and you found a story of a fire that was not put out by a fire extinguisher would that prove that all fire extinguishers are useless? That is what you are trying to show us except with CHLs.
This is evidence that our education system is a failure.

[Xmit]

20. "lack of a trend"

Why is this so hard?

[Glassunion]

21. Triple Fail...

1. Where in the CCW paperwork or licensing is there a duty laid on the CCWer to protect the public? Nowhere. So you fail once.
2. Ohio requires that you retreat from an attacker, there is no stand your ground law. So you fail twice.
3. In the defense of others you have to know for a fact that the so called "aggressor" was not enticed by the victim. So you fail three times.

You should understand what you are talking about before you talk about it. For someone who claims to own firearms, you prove time and again that you know nothing about them.

[MichaelHarris]

22. So

you only carry because you're scared, got it.

[Xmit]

23. Whom are you referring to? NM

[proteus_lives]

24. So.

You want to take people's rights because you're scared, got it.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Glassunion]

27. 4th fail. You don't get it.

Try again.

[AtheistCrusader]

30. I also keep batteries in my smoke alarms, because I'm 'scared' of fire.

Try harder.

[cleanhippie]

38. Your only response is a personal attack? Really, Michael, you need to grow up.

It was YOUR OP. How about responding like an adult with a logical and reasonable argument?

Scared. Why is it that you state that? I think you are projecting a bit.

[oneshooter]

43. He will not answer you because he is skeered of the answers.

They do not agree with his own agenda.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

47. So

My house insurance is paid up. I must be scared, got it.

[aikoaiko]

31. I thank you for the being the voice of the anti-rkba side of the DU discussion on these issues...

...because you're so bad at it.

What's is your point?

Is it the particular case of this poor woman and man not being saved by someone with weapons permit?

Is it there are more criminal shootings than justified shootings?

Is it that someone people have cited a stat that you find high, but other people didn't criticize it?

Is ist that more people in Iraq aren't using guns in self-defense more?

Wtf, Michael?

[diveguy]

32. You know

All this talk about CCW. In the article linked by the OP, the gun used was a shotgun. I cant think of any state's CCW regs that cover long guns. Also, find me a manufacturing plant where firearms are allowed to be carried

[shadowrider]

33. I gotta hand it to you MH, you make me chuckle almost as hard as

some other posters.

[Euromutt]

42. Personally, he just makes me marvel...

...at the capacity of the human mind to seal itself from evidence that contradicts a cherished belief.

[slackmaster]

35. You have misconstrued the purpose of concealed weapons

They're for personal self-defense, not to solve the problem of violent crime in general.

Unrec for general dumbness.

:nuke:

[cleanhippie]

37. I'm sorry, did you have a point?

Probably not, but I thought I would ask.

[Big Al Mac]

44. 207,000 CHLs in Ohio

That's the best guess number I came up with after the 2010 second quarter CHL statistics came out as how many active Ohio Concealed Handgun Licenses there were.

That's somewhere between 2 and 3 percent of the law abiding adult population of Ohio.

Oh, and as was pointed out by someone earlier, nearly no employers allow their employees to be armed at work in Ohio.

[shadowrider]

45. And if someone did stop it, you'd deny it since nothing happened for him/her to stop

Witness your steadfast refusal to admit the "Church Lady" stopped a mass shooting.

[ileus]

49. CHP holders aren't law enforcement.

It's not my job to serve and protect anyone but my family and I.

That being said;

I must ask how many permit holders were in the vicinity during this crime? 1? 14,000? None?

Sounds to me like you've made the argument for 1.4 million permits.

[Glassunion]

50. Been down this road with you before... I will try to roll up all of your posts into one...

over 14,000 weapons permits issued issued in the second quarter of 2010 in Ohio and not one of them stopped this: "A gunman shot a woman dead in her sport-utility vehicle in the parking lot of an Ohio manufacturing plant Friday, then went inside and killed a man before being hit with a stun gun and apprehended a few blocks away, police said."
1. There is one question that you continually avoid answering. What duty does one citizen have to the general public to protect them when they choose to carry a firearm?
2. Are you aware of the laws in Ohio? If so you would know that an individual with a CCW cannot easily intervene in that situation. In the split seconds that the shooting in the parking lot took place, a CCWer would have to make the determination that the shooter was the aggressor. They would have to know 100% that the individual being shot did not entice the person assaulting them. If they get that wrong, they could be tried for murder or manslaughter.
3. What are the manufacturing plant's policies on firearms at the workplace?

OP: Choose any state that allows concealed carry then compare the violent crime numbers to the actual number of times a concealed weapon permit holder used said weapon.
1. I have stated to you in the past that this is an impossible number to obtain because the data does NOT exist. There is no database or agency WHATSOEVER that tracks Defensive Uses with Firearms. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=337268&mesg_id=337845
2. There IS however victim survey data. This has been compiled by both private survey companies and the Department of Justice which I have provided to you in the past. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=337268&mesg_id=337861

OP: Now in just a few minutes someone is going to tell you that there are over 2 million defensive uses of a firearm this year. After you stop laughing, make sure they know there are not that many in Iraq and there's a war going on there.
1. I have not made the 2 million claim, however I have stated a conservative 1.5 million claim and I backed it up with the DOJ report. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=337268&mesg_id=337861

Post 3: The 2 million guys will be here soon, wait til you see their sources. I'm already chuckling a little.
1. Again all by itself... Page 9. http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Post 6: hell if I know, ask the gun forum guys who keep tossing out the 2 million number. They'll be here shortly. Funny, I never saw you ask them for their sources when they posted that 2 million number.
1. In the past when giving you this information to look at, I directly cited my source in the post. There would be no need for anyone to ask me to cite my source, beacuse I already cited my source. Redundant huh? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=337268&mesg_id=338011

Post 14: I have no problem with gun ownership, I own quite a few. I have a problem with those who come to DU and make up stats like the 2 million number. It was used 3 or 4 times in the gun forum last week and not one of you discredited it. Where were you when your own forum members were promoting the 2 million number?
1. I understand that you are referring to the posts from the last week. However since the source has been cited several times before that and they knew that, why would they demand a source? And, since it was you who is doubting the source. Why did'nt you ask that they cite their source. Again all by itself... Page 9. http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Post 22: So you only carry because you're scared, got it.
1. This was a reply from you to a post where I was outlining the laws of the state of Ohio and had NOTHING to do with why I carry.
2. Your statement however, in its very core, is a false dilemma, implying that the only reason to carry is because an individual is scared, which is also an insult. There are many reasons an individual may choose to carry a firearm, none of which is because they are scared. Sure an individual's fear may play a part in their decision to carry, however that on its face should not be discounted as an invalid reason for that person to carry.