Gunman fires on employees at Reno Walmart

[MichaelHarris]

"A gunman walked into a Nevada Walmart store Friday morning and opened fire on employees before barricading himself in an office, according to police." http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/10/29/nevada.walmart.shooting/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

Where were all the concealed weapon permit holders? Once again, CWHs fail to stop a mass shooting. the reason we have this CWP hysteria is because of a mass shooting, Luby's, in the years since that attack not one concealed permit holder has stopped a mass shooting. I doubt they will stop this one.

[Ikonoklast]

1. And neither did law enforcement, Straw Man.

[MichaelHarris]

5. do you mean

the straw man the NRA used to pass CWPs all over the nation, the Luby's shooting? Is that the straw man you are referring to? Is it the straw man that is being used on college campuses all across the nation where the NRA says the V. Tech shooting wouldn't have happened if guns were allowed on campus? Which straw man are you talking about?

[Ikonoklast]

12. Were there any CCP holders on site? No?

Straw man.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. "the NRA says the V. Tech shooting wouldn't have happened if guns were allowed on campus?"

I believe they claim that it might have been stopped (which is true), but you just go right ahead and give us a quote from

the NRA where they say it "wouldn't have happened".

[pipoman]

23. You have been told time after time after time yet you continue to spew this same

nonsense. CCW isn't about stopping mass shootings as you act like you believe it to be. It is now and always has been about personal protection. Not one other thing...nothing. Now you may have a point if 1 or 2 of the victims were armed ccw holders huh? Otherwise you're arguing the equivalent of advocating abolition of police because they didn't stop a crime...nonsense.

[one-eyed fat man]

29. Luby's shooting

So, Mikey, you are saying that Dr. Susan Gratia-Hupp who witnessed her parents killed in cold blood when she says she could have stopped the mad man is a liar?

Are you saying the law. then, did not prevent her from carrying her revolver for self defense?

Are you saying she or anyone claimed that all mad men would be stopped by CCW permits?

Are you just full of more shit than a Christmas goose?

Dr. Susan Gratia-Hupp

[SteveM]

40. He should go into farming. nt

[slackmaster]

2. Unrec for the "concealed weapons holders are supposed to enforce the law" strawman

:nuke:

[DonP]

3. Whatever made you think that was their job?

All you ever do is post news stories about crime with some vague and utterly pointless comment that conflates legal, law abiding gun owners with criminals or try and sell a straw man like this, that somehow guns are magic talismans that can stop all crime.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that CCW are some kind of auxiliary police force.

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. It's the new Big Lie about CWP holders, since "Blood in the streets!" is so discredited

and the Little Lie to go with it is no one with a CWP has stopped a mass shooting. So history must be rewritten:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=338983#339105

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=338983

[MichaelHarris]

8. that's the way

they sold themselves after the Luby's shooting. I'm just reinforcing their position.

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. Ah, the famous "they". Would that be all 5 million+ CWP holders...

...or just certain ones that were quoted and you choose to portray as speaking for all?


Do tell, Michael...

[DonP]

14. Well, the NRA is a public site - show us a few?

Just a few examples of where the NRA said that CCW would serve to help the police fight crime and defend the public?

Last time I looked they said people would at least have the ability to defend themselves if they had a CCW. Not that it really matters because people who favor more gun control have had their ass whipped for the last decade and there are zero signs of that trend changing in the future.

In fact there has been more progress on rolling back gun control since Obama took office than in the 8 years of Bush. Isn't that great? I expect we'll see more roll backs soon.

But be patient, Bloomberg will send you your next set of talking points any day now - since that whole "blood in the streets" thing, "terrorists are getting guns" and the rest of that BS hasn't accomplished much.

My God, even Chuck Schumer and the rest of his gun control crew is keeping their mouths shut this election cycle. I guess that proves that some politicians ARE actually much smarter than a few of their voters.

[ManiacJoe]

18. Not "after" the Luby's shooting but "on" the Luby's shooting.

The customers would have stopped the shooter if they had not been forced to leave their guns outside.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duckhunter935]

4. Police should have prevented him from shooting

[Glassunion]

6. Does he have all of us on ignore?

If so, I will not bother with a response.

[pipoman]

28. I'm not sure if he has me on ignore or not...

I have him on ignor-amus..:)

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rrneck]

10. How do we know you won't shoot up a Wal Mart? nt

[PavePusher]

11. What do you suggest we do to ensure a CCW is within assistance range?

Keep stuffing that Strawman(tm), whatever you are using as filling keeps falliung out it's... bottom.

[Glassunion]

16. Will you actually read it this time.... *shakes Magic 8-Ball* "Signs Point to No"

Fact: Only about 1 in 45 adults have a CCW permit.
Fact: You have never answered the following question: What is the CCW'ers obligation in this type of situation? Are they obligated to confront the gunman? Or should they see to their family's safety?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/04/2534869.htm
With that said, lets look at the last 10 years of mass shootings...

1. Littleton, Colorado, April 1999: Two teenage boys shoot and kill 12 students and a teacher at Columbine High School before killing themselves.

A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting, as it would have been illegal for them to posess a firearm in the school.

2. Atlanta, Georgia, July 1999: A stock market day trader goes on a day-long shooting rampage, killing 12 people including his wife and two children before taking his own life.

A CCW permit holder could have stopped this shooting.

3. Fort Worth, Texas, September 1999: A gunman opens fire at a prayer service, killing six people before committing suicide.

A CCW Permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting. The possesion of a firearm in a church was prohibited at the time of this shooting

4. Washington, October 2002: A series of sniper-style shootings, some carried out from the boot of a car, claims 10 lives, mostly in the Washington area. Many of the attacks were carried out with a semi-automatic assault rifle.

A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in Washington DC.

5. Chicago, August 2003: A worker who was laid off shoots and kills six of his former co-workers with a semi-automatic pistol. The shooter had a lengthy arrest record, including for weapons offences.

A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in the state of Illinios.

6. Birchwood, Wisconsin, November 2004: A hunter opens fire with an SKS assault rifle, killing six other hunters and wounding two after an argument.

A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in the state of Wisconson.

7. Brookfield, Wisconsin, March 2005: A man fires 22 rounds during a church service, killing seven people.

A CCW permit holder would have been unable to stop this shooting spree as CCW is not permitted in the state of Wisconson.

8. Tacoma Washington, November 2005: A man marched down a mall corridor, firing from an assault rifle and semiautomatic machine pistol before ducking into a store and taking several hostages.

A CCW permit holder would have had an oportunity to stop this and one DID.

9. Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, October 2006: A truck driver armed with two rifles, a semi-automatic handgun and 600 rounds of ammunition kills five schoolgirls execution-style in an Amish schoolhouse, and seriously wounds six others before shooting himself.

A CCW permit holder would not have been unable to stop this shooting as it is prohibited to possess a firearm in a K-12 school.

10. Blacksburg, Virginia, April 2007: A student shoots 47 people at Virginia Tech, killing 32 before he commits suicide, in the deadliest mass shooting in the United States.

A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this as possesion of firearms was prohibited at the school.

11. Omaha, Nebraska, December 2007: Nine people are killed and five others injured after a 20-year-old shooter armed with a military-style assault rifle attacks shoppers in a mall.

A CCW permit holder would have had an oportunity to stop this.

12. Carnation, Washington, December 2007: A woman and her boyfriend shoot dead six members of her family, including two children, ages three and six, on Christmas Eve, using large-caliber pistols.

A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this. As it happened in a home and not a public place.

13. Chicago, February 2008: Six women are tied-up and shot at a suburban clothing store. Five of the women die. The gunman has not been found.

A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this as CCW is not permitted in Illinios.

14. DeKalb, Illinois, February 2008: A man opens fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing five students and wounding 16 before turning his weapon on himself.

A CCW permit holder would not have had an oportunity to stop this as CCW is not permitted in Illinios.

15. Alger, Washington, September 2008: A mentally ill man who had been released from jail a month earlier shoots eight people, killing six.

A CCW permit holder would have had an opportunity to stop this shooting.

16. Covina, California, December 2008: A man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opens fire at a family Christmas party at his ex-wife's home and then sets fire to the house. Nine people are killed in the home. The gunman later kills himself.

A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting for two reasons: 1st, CCW in California is may-issue and very few permits are approved and it happened in a private residence.

17. Geneva County and Coffee County, Alabama, March 12 2009: In a shooting spree that tears through several towns, a 28-year-old out-of-work man kills 10 people, including his mother and a toddler.

A CCW permit holder would have had an oportunity to stop this shooting.

18. North Carolina, March 29, 2009: A heavily-armed gunman shoots dead eight people, many elderly and sick patients, in a North Carolina nursing home.

A CCW would have had an oportunity to stop this shooting, only IF the nursing home did not have a No-Firearms rule and posting.

19. Santa Clara, California, March 30, 2009: Six people are shot dead in an apparent murder-suicide at a home in an upscale Silicon Valley neighbourhood.

A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting for two reasons: 1st, CCW in California is may-issue and very few permits are approved and it happened in a private residence.

20. Binghamton, New York, April 3, 2009: Up to 13 people are killed as a gunman goes on a rampage at a civic centre in the town of Binghamton.

A CCW permit holder would most likely not been able to stop this shooting as NY is a may issue state. However there may have been an oportunity to stop the shooting.

21. Graham, Washington State, April 5, 2009: James Harrison, 34, killed his five children (aged between seven and 16) inside his mobile home, then drove to a nearby casino and shot himself inside his car, police said.

A CCW permit holder would not have been able to stop this shooting as it happened in a private residence.

You have 21 "mass shootings" in a 10 year span. But we only have 7 mass shootings where a CCW permit holder would have had a legal oportunity to stop a mass shooting. Considering today's number of CCW holders being at around 1 in 45 adults, having a 1 in 7 rate of mass shootings stopped by a CCW holder does not seem to me to defy the odds.

[lawodevolution]

17. Once again you use deceptive tactics

Let's say you reach into the pocket of random people to find coins and if you only report when you find a dollar coin, you can try to make it look like people only carry dollar coins but anyone with a brain understands that you are using a form of deception. That's what you are doing with these look a concealed carrier didn't stop the crime posts.

[spin]

19. O.K. I'll name one shooting stopped by a person with a concealed carry permit ...

Volunteer guard stood up to gunman, ended church slay spree in Colorado
Tuesday, December 11th 2007, 3:33 AM



The Colorado man who went on an anti-Christian rampage over the weekend was raised by a deeply religious family - and was shot to death by a former cop so full of faith she said Jesus helped pull her trigger.


***snip***

Assam took up a volunteer position at the church after news of a shooting overnight at a missionary school 65 miles away in Arvada, Colo.

***snip***

Murray began his rampage Saturday night by shooting four people at the Arvada school, two of whom died.

Then he went to the Colorado Springs megachurch, where he began shooting at people in cars, hitting five, then entered the building, still spraying bullets.

He had an assault rifle, two handguns, grenades and more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2007/12/11/2007-12-11_volunteer_guard_stood_up_to_gunman_ended.html#ixzz13niejfZA

The Remaking of Jeanne Assam

It seems the mainstream media has a hard time accepting the idea that a concealed weapons carrier can stop a massacre in progress. I'm not surprised. Even though the pastor of the New Life Church explained the position of his members who carry handguns in church, the media continues to portray Jeanne Assam as a security guard. She wore no uniform. She received no pay. She worshiped there by choice. Her only duty was to God, her fellow parishioners, and to her own conscience. She was a private citizen with a gun, not a hired security guard.
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/12/remaking-of-jeanne-assam.html

[one-eyed fat man]

27. No, no, no!

Don't you pay attention? That's been brought up before. Mikey will tell you that one doesn't count. There was no mass shooting because after she shot the guy he went outside and killed himself. Besides he had only killed a couple people before he got inside the church so there was no mass killing to stop.

Now if he'd only invest in one of these.............




spreading his bullshit would be a LOT easier.!

[spin]

20. The solution to the problem is obvious. We have to get more people licensed to carry ...

and do away with "no guns" zones.

To be fair, even you would have to admit that mass shootings are not everyday events since they often occur in areas where carrying a firearm is illegal, there is no surprise that a high percentage of them were not stopped by a person with a concealed carry permit.

Plus in Florida only 2.72% of adults are licensed to carry and only 1.65% in Texas. (Note: statistics based on 2000 Census and 2003 Census estimates Ref: http://www.oregonconcealedcarry.com/index.php?showtopic=838)

[spin]

21. As often posted here, concealed weapons do stop many attacks ...

do you seriously discount all the lives they save merely because they don't stop a high percentage of mass murders?

I'll just post one recent example.

Details emerge in fatal shooting in Detroit
Victim was hit, but returned fire
Posted: Oct. 21, 2010 | Updated: 1:36 p.m. Oct. 21, 2010

Omar Mixon –the man who shot and killed an alleged would-be carjacker—was released from the hospital today, his wife said today.

He was pumping gas into his black Escalade when a man with a gun came up from behind.

"I want your truck -- give it to me now," the alleged carjacker told him, according to Mixon's wife, Brenda Mixon, who spoke with him afterward.

Moments later, bullets started flying about 7 p.m. Tuesday outside of the Detroit gas station on Fenkell near Schaefer.

Omar Mixon, 37, of Detroit was struck in several places, but returned fire, killing the would-be carjacker. The suspect was identified by the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office as 20-year-old Kenyon Reese Jr.

***snip***

Mixon had a license to carry a concealed weapon, his wife and police said.
http://www.freep.com/article/20101021/NEWS01/10210459/1320/Details-emerge-in-fatal-shooting-in-Detroit

[krispos42]

22. Maybe if CCW was not treated as a paranoid mental disorder...

and socially stigmatized, more people would carry, then increasing the odds of a CCW-involved intervention.


Of course, every time a CCW holder shoots an armed robber, he or she may have just prevented a mass shooting, too.

[spin]

24. Your comment surprised me ...

Here in Florida, I have never encountered a person who looked at me like I was crazy or paranoid when I mentioned that I have a concealed weapons permit. Many say, "I've been meaning to get one."

[krispos42]

26. I guess it would depend on the circles you run in.

:shrug:

The way some people speak up CCW and the people that do it, you'd think it should be in the DSM-IV.

[spin]

31. I wonder if it could be the different states we live in...

I understand Connecticut is a "may issue" state while Florida is a "shall issue" state. If I am right, you have to have a "handgun eligibility certificate" to buy a handgun in Connecticut but not in Florida.

I know that firearms ownership in Florida is very common and 760,000 people have issued Florida Concealed Weapons Permits. Floridians can also carry a loaded weapon in their vehicle without a license as long as it is "securely encased".

But then, you may be right. My circle of friends includes a lot of shooters, hunters, and cops.

[oneshooter]

33. Texas is a "shall issue" state, with loaded handguns in cars have to be concealed. n/t

[spin]

34. Are people with concealed carry permits socially stigmatized in Texas?

[oneshooter]

35. Maybe in Austin (very liberal there) but otherwise no. n/t

[spin]

36. It fascinates me that "liberals" would look down on gun owners..

considering the history of our country.

The revolutionaries in the American Revolution and the French Revolution used liberal philosophy to justify the armed overthrow of tyrannical rule. The nineteenth century saw liberal governments established in nations across Europe, Latin America, and North America. Liberal ideas spread even further in the twentieth century, when liberal democracies triumphed in two world wars and survived major ideological challenges from fascism and communism. Conservatism, fundamentalism, and military dictatorship remain powerful opponents of liberalism. Today, liberals are organized politically on all major continents. They have played a decisive role in the growth of republics, the spread of civil rights and civil liberties, the establishment of the modern welfare state, the institution of religious toleration and religious freedom, and the development of globalization. Political scientist Alan Wolfe wrote, "liberalism is the answer for which modernity is the question".

***snip***

The history of liberalism spans the better part of the last four centuries, beginning in the English Civil War and continuing after the end of the Cold War. Liberalism started as a major doctrine and intellectual endeavor in response to the religious wars gripping Europe during the 16th and 17th centuries, although the historical context for the ascendancy of liberalism goes back to the Middle Ages.The first notable incarnation of liberal unrest came with the American Revolution, and liberalism fully exploded as a comprehensive movement against the old order during the French Revolution, which set the pace for the future development of human history.
emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

The first battles of the American Revolution began over gun control.

The Battles of Lexington and Concord were the first military engagements of the American Revolutionary War.<9><10> They were fought on April 19, 1775, in Middlesex County, Province of Massachusetts Bay, within the towns of Lexington, Concord, Lincoln, Menotomy (present-day Arlington), and Cambridge, near Boston. The battles marked the outbreak of open armed conflict between the Kingdom of Great Britain and its thirteen colonies in the mainland of British North America.

About 700 British Army regulars, under Lieutenant Colonel Francis Smith, were given secret orders to capture and destroy military supplies that were reportedly stored by the Massachusetts militia at Concord. Through effective intelligence gathering, Patriot colonials had received word weeks before the expedition that their supplies might be at risk and had moved most of them to other locations. They also received details about British plans on the night before the battle and were able to rapidly notify the area militias of the enemy movement.emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord

Why did General Gage attempt to seize the armory at concord?

For the same reason every despot through history has disarmed their adversary... The easiest way to enslave people is to remove their means to resist. Once the armory, or the stockpile of weapons and munitions was destroyed the British would have an easier time suppressing a revolution. Only with a means of self defense were the colonists able to through off the chains of tyranny.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_General_Gage_attempt_to_seize_the_armory_at_concord

[oneshooter]

37. Mayhaps the wrong wording. Try far left wing Democrat. n/t

[spin]

39. That is far more descriptive and accurate. (n/t)

[SteveM]

41. Hell, the "far left wing" types I know have guns. nt

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

30. Out doing stuff. Maybe the same place as the police..

this is completely irrelevant to me, my ability to own or carry firearms.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Straw Man]

42. I am Straw Man...

...and I do not endorse this message.

Enough said.

[Glassunion]

43. *SNORT*