Here's a fun FBI gun chart...

[ZombieHorde]

Here is a link to where I found this chart... http://flowingdata.com/2011/01/19/states-with-the-most-and-least-firearms-murders/

I live in Montana. I don't own a firearm, but I am surrounded by them. Montana is a right to carry State, but we enjoy below average firearm murders for the US. I think an area's culture has more to do with firearm murders in the US than clip size and conceal carry permits. What do you think?

[mistertrickster]

1. Interesting. Except for DC and Michigan, blue states tend to have

lower than average of gun violence.

The former Confederacy . . . not so good . . .

[petronius]

5. And New York, and California, and Maryland, and Pennsylvania, and Delaware...

;)

[mistertrickster]

39. Both Maryland and Delaware were "border states" with evenly divided loyalty. nt

[petronius]

45. I was referring to the "blue states" comment. The Civil War aspect is wholly irrelevant

in this context, IMO, except perhaps as an exercise in gratuitous South-bashing...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. thank you.

I understood your comment, however it seems others here did not. thank you for clarifying.

[Skip_In_Boulder]

7. The former Confederacy

Need we say more?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. yes, we do. I would like to see how it breaks down according to WHERE

in those states. I am willing to bet that most of them take place in city limits, no matter the "former confederacy". sheesh.

[PavePusher]

28. Yes, actually. Unless you simply want to appear to be a bigot. n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. so fucking old.

:eyes: get over it already.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Do you have a material problem with the content or it's presentation?

I have certainly never seen this chart before.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. sorry for the confusion...the chart and content is fine.

I took umbrage with the commentary and antiquated reference to the "confederacy". It gets old and does nothing to bring us together as a nation and serves to further divide us, imvho.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. Ah, understood.

As a north-westerner, I recently visited Tennessee, and I must say, I was surprised at the prevalence of civil war era memorials, murals, statues and dioramas. The lobby of the hotel I stayed in had a diorama of a battlefield, life size mannequins, of a wounded confederate soldier trying to crawl away behind a wall while the scary Union soldier creeps up to bayonet him.

Very strange place, to me. In a way, from some of the statues, it seemed as though in some vague way they felt they had won.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. hmmm....I guess the Northwest has nothing of history...

and of course no where in the world idoloizes war. Stay away from Europe, Russia etc.............:eyes:

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Aside from the destruction of the indigenous people, of whom we have no

social memory to speak of, WWII was the only 'war' to grace the NW, and it consisted of (outside the general war effort) one Japanese sub shelling Fort Stevens in Oregon, and a couple small forest fires started by bombs dropped by a mosquito aircraft launched by the same sub.

So to a degree, we have no 'war' experiences tied to this region. Certainly nothing for the Civil War.

[oneshooter]

35. Don't forget the "balloon bombs" that Japan launched.

Killed six people, and started some fires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. and your point is...?

I really do not understand unless you think you are subtly NOT trying to further divide the country by insinuating
that one part is not allowed to have its history while another section is.................

and by the way do you really think that "social memory to speak of" actually sounds like you are taking some kind of moral high ground...?

[AtheistCrusader]

48. You misunderstand.

On social memory, that's a lament. Kids can come out of our schools having read every scrap of their approved history textbooks, and complete the curricula with passing grades, and have no clue whatsoever the horrors we visited upon the indigenous people of the Americas. I'd be shocked if one out of 10 actually understood, and would also be shocked if less than 5 out of 10 wouldn't equivocate away with 'we brought them civilization' or somesuch nonsense.


On the civil war, my point is mostly that I am shocked how large a part of southern identity the civil war remains. Especially given how and why it started. Seems highly strange to me.

Edit: Consider the balance between people impacted and to the degree they were impacted by A) Settling the US, and B) the net result for the south in the Civil War. The amount of attention devoted to it in history classes, and the current remaining social visibility of the two issues.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

50. how much of the south did you visit again? and why is this even being discussed in the gun forum?

[mistertrickster]

41. Thank you. You "get it." nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. then why was it even brought up....? and notice it was brought up from

someone NOT from the South. The South (for the most part, and all sections of the country have their bigots)has MOVED ON!!!

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Has it?

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'the most part' and 'moved on'.

Simply speaking as an observer. Granted, I didn't go outside Tenn. Perhaps they are an outlier.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. has it...? notice that it was NOT brought up by a southerner in this forum

and if you ever care to pay attention around here it is not brought up by the southern DUers. I find that VERY TELLING. It says way more about the person bringing it up than it ever does about the south.

[mistertrickster]

37. Really. How about seceding from the Union? What did that do for unity? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

43. could you please forward or must you insist on living in the past?

are you really that set in your ways?

[mistertrickster]

40. Hey, tell it to the Confederate History month folks or the Sons of the Confederacy

or the "States Rights" people or all the Bubbas with a fucking rebel flag on their trucks.

You don't hear me crowing about "the South will rise again."

How about the barely reformed Rebels get over it?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. good grief, is that all you have? face/palm

how about you get over a small insignificant group and quit trotting that out to justify your south bashing.

[MrModerate]

2. Do you think that the fact that the states on the bottom half of the chart . . .

Are mostly rural -- i.e., providing fewer opportunities per 100,000 for the type of conflict that leads to firearm murders -- might have something to do with it?

Of course culture is a major factor. But so is a host of other factors.

[speltwon]

4. So are many near the top of the chart

Rural, I mean. I'm surprised Alaska is as low as it is, considering (at least from what I heard) it has far more men than women, and men commit far more firearms murders per capita

[PavePusher]

29. "what I heard" and what is true are far too often not at all related. n/t

[speltwon]

31. Well, the stats show it to be somewhat true

51.7% vs. 48.3% although not a huge disparity.

Nationwide, there are 50.7% females, so obviously not the factor I thought it was. Live and learn.

However, those stats don't account for seasonal workers (fishing industry, etc.) who are very disproportionately male.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

10. I agree there are probably multiple factors affecting firearm murders in the US. nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

3. Montana has no-permit concealed carry??

I thought only Vermont, Alaska, Arizona, and Wyoming had concealed carry without permit.

Is it a local thing in Montana or statewide? State law or is concealed carry just unenforced?

[RSillsbee]

6. In Montana you don't need a permit out of city limits NT

[ZombieHorde]

9. Here is a little bit of info...

The Montana House voted 55-45 to approve a gun rights bill that would allow people to carry concealed weapons in urban areas without a permit. House Bill 271 would allow anyone eligible for a concealed weapon permit to carry without actually applying for a permit. Law enforcement officials are very concerned. Concealed carry is already allowed in rural areas without a permit.

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2011/feb/22/montana-surveying-right-wing-boundaries/

[RSillsbee]

11. So, is it law yet? NT

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

12. Microsoft Excel indicates a poor correlation between Gun-Homicide Rate and Brady Scorecard...

Brady Scorecard ranks states' strength of gun laws and is published annually by the Brady Campaign (foremost lobby for gun control). A more severe anti-rights stance generates a higher Brady Ranking. When this list's score is correlated against the federal gun-homicide per capita in the OP, the correlation is rather poor - with an absolute value of 0.3

Values close to zero indicate no correlation.
Said otherwise, anti-rights gun laws don't necessessarily influence the gun-homicide rates.
surprise surprise... :eyes:

[TreasonousBastard]

13. In DC, NY, PA, and CA, and maybe a few others, how many of those shootings...

were due to inner city gang violence? Or any other circumstances that make carry laws irrelevant?

Could it not be that the chart shows a trend toward education and wealth reducing gun violence more than anything else?

[Blown330]

16. You mean it demonstrates...

...the blatantly obvious? Who would think that areas with higher concentrations of gang culture, low income, and low education, would also have the highest gun murder rates?

[PavePusher]

30. Sarcasm. It is delicious... Well played. n/t

[TheWraith]

25. It's been estimated that around 90% of murderers have a prior criminal record.

While not all of those are gang related, it's a good bet that most are. A good comparison is to the prohibition era, another time where violence was primarily driven by gangs and black markets. Despite the hyperventilated warnings that it would cause violence to skyrocket, after prohibition was repealed, murders and violent crimes dropped like a rock.

We can never get rid of gangs entirely, so long as there's criminal enterprise for them to subsist on, and impoverished people to prey on for recruits. But we can greatly reduce their numbers and their funding by denying them those recruits, and by denying them their sources of funding.

Education, economic opportunity, and eliminating the "War on Drugs."

[ZombieHorde]

26. Montana is not a rich State. I am not sure why we are below average in firearm homicides,

but it is not because of our monetary wealth.

Inner city gangs are a cultural phenomenon. I don't know very much about inner city gangs, but I don't think we can legislate them away. I think we need to address them through cultural and environmental means.

[LawnKorn]

14. Where does Florida fall on the list?

[slackmaster]

20. The FBI has a long-standing problem getting reliable, consistent crime reports from Florida

It's always a problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Which is interesting when you consider Florida is one of the only states that publishes revoked

CPL's per year, by reason.

[Big Al Mac]

33. Florida isn't on the graphic

and, as a matter of fact, it isn't in the FBI Excel spreadsheet either.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_20.html

Actually it is missing from the weapons used to murder by state, Table 20, in the years 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009.
Apparently someone in the FBI decided Florida ceased to be a state about 5 years ago.

[slackmaster]

36. Kind of like Pluto being declared a non-planet

FREE PLUTO!

[mvccd1000]

15. Yin and Yang - interesting

Arizona and Illinois are about as diametrically opposed as you can get in protecting the Second Amendment, but they are right next to each other on the chart. If THAT doesn't lead one to believe that there is no correlation between strong gun control laws and decreased homicide rates, I don't suppose anything will.

[WatsonT]

19. Correct

nothing will convince the true believers.

May as well try to convince Fred Phelps that homosexuals really aren't to blame for everything the world.

It's just too ingrained in their overall belief structure.

[GreenStormCloud]

21. Not only next to each other but they are both in the center. N/T