At some Virginia churches, guns are an invisible part of the routine

[jpak]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/at-some-virginia-churches-guns-are-an-invisible-part-of-the-routine/2011/04/17/AFD9FFwD_story.html

Parishioners carried Bibles in embroidered cases, babies with ribbons in their hair, and flutes, violins and sheet music into Immanuel Bible Church for Palm Sunday services.

And a few carried guns, tucked into waistbands, hidden under suit jackets.

At least a dozen members of this Springfield congregation routinely bring concealed weapons to services, said the Rev. Steve Holley, the church’s pastor of ministries. Since the Virginia attorney general published an advisory opinion last week on weapons in houses of worship, Holley wonders whether more of his flock will have “a Bible in one holster and a handgun in the other as they come to church.”

Virginia law bars guns in religious meetings unless the person has a “good and sufficient reason” to carry a weapon. Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli II (R) wrote that personal protection meets the legal standard as a reason to carry a firearm. He said, however, that a church can choose to ban guns on its property.

<more>

Jesus carried

not

[stubtoe]

1. Somehow the idea of guns in churches is just WRONG

n/t

[PavePusher]

6. Because churches have never been attacked by thugs or crazies before....

amIright?

[pnwmom]

9. And how often does that ever happen?

Once in every hundred years?

[GreenStormCloud]

33. Google "church shootings". You will get a lot of hits.

Churches are not immune to violent crime.

[Buzz Clik]

37. ... no pun intended. (?)

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. But certainly more than "once in a hundred years". Careful you don't throw your back out....

....moving that goalpost!

[pnwmom]

54. In any particular church? No. In most churches, they probably

haven't been attacked in more than a couple of hundred years.

I live in a large metropolitan area, and I haven't heard of a single instance in 30 years of thugs breaking in while a church had a service going on. I can see no reason for people to think they needed to have a gun at church, "just in case."

There have been a couple late night arsons and burglaries, and some hater did kill a woman at a Jewish organization (not a Synagogue). I wonder if he had a CC license? He could have since he didn't have a criminal record.

[Glassunion]

69. Yep... 100 years inbetween attacks.

Just don't count these...
In the days following 9/11/2001 - Not one Mosque or Church were set fire to, or parishioners attacked in the parking lots... Nope. Not one.
A church was not torched in Southern California on Saturday. Did not happen. http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=8078021
This pair of people were not murdered in their church. Did not happen. Her husband did not drive from California to NJ to kill her. http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_17787131?nclick_check=1 or http://www.indiawest.com/readmore.aspx?id=3151&sid=1
A guy did not bust into this church while choir practice was going on. Did not happen. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec99/shooting_9-16a.html
This did not happen either. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mskmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=a44EAAAAIBAJ&pg=4862,2849941&dq=church+shooting&hl=en
Don't even bother looking here... Nothing happened. http://www.christianpost.com/news/brady-boyd-speaks-out-on-surviving-church-shooting-haggard-scandal-49811/
Or at any of these... This stuff just NEVER happens... Nothing to see here.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110415/NEWS01/704159828/0/BIZ
http://articles.ky3.com/2011-04-14/fire-crews_29419830
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6312/53/
http://www.connecttristates.com/news/story.aspx?id=606622
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/916050-196/milford-woman-in-icu-after-repeated-stabbing.html
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7ERjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Q3QNAAAAIBAJ&pg=645,6041602&dq=church+stabbed&hl=en
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MH&s_site=miami&p_multi=MH&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB3666100D9BE21&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/bostonherald/access/68780862.html?dids=68780862:68780862&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+17%2C+1992&author=RALPH+RANALLI&pub=Boston+Herald&desc=Gangs+%60remorseful%27+over+church+stabbing&pqatl=google
http://www.thestkittsnevisobserver.com/2011/04/15/youth-stabbed.html
http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/metro/view/20110418-331872/Man-killed-2-others-wounded-in-three-Lapu-Lapu-robberies
http://www.tauntongazette.com/news/x250634081/Taunton-man-ruled-dangerous-for-2-counts-of-attempted-murder
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/04/hearing_will_decide_if_defenda.html
http://woonsocket.patch.com/articles/woonsocket-police-log-stabbing-victim-refuses-to-file-complaint
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/03/30/police-say-church-attack-suspect-was-high-on-supercense/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/funeral-mourner-stabbed-at-southeast-church/2011/04/14/AFYzY4eD_story.html
http://championnewspaper.com/news/articles/903alleged-church-rapist-indicted-903.html

[Common Sense Party]

112. I think what they mean is: "Those Christians had it coming to them."

"So who cares if a few get blown away. At least I won't have to hear them praising Jesus all day long."

[RSillsbee]

72. How often does it have to happen before you take precautions?

I'm sure you are familiar w/ the New Life Church shooting? Let me give you some background. New Life Church is enormousthey pack in 12+thousand parishioners every Sunday. Because of this they hire off duty police officers to direct traffic after service. I am going to say they probably have 20 cops in uniform on scene every Sunday. Such was the case on the Sunday Matthew Murray attempted to shoot up the church.

Now, here is where this becomes relevant

The first 911 calls started coming in w/in 1 minute of the first shot, Murray was dead before the cops on the premises of the church got the first call from dispatch.

That's how fast it happened not even the cops on scene had time to respond what makes you think a cop coming from across town would?

[jpak]

10. David Koresh was krazy - not the FBI agents

yup

[rl6214]

22. "David Koresh was Krazy-not the FBI agents"

no, they were just dishonest in covering up their crimes.

[jpak]

26. What crimes? Koresh was a fraud and child molester - not some GOP/NRA god

yup

[rl6214]

52. You think all those people that died in those flames

deserved to die? Have you ever read a study on the assault on that compound? I have. The FBI is not without blame in the deaths of those people.

[jpak]

63. Koresh stooges set the fire and they didn't let the kids escape - Koresh apologists ain't right

The FBI did nothing wrong

RW Militia nonsense

yup

[rl6214]

65. OK, right

just like the ATF can do no wrong either, right?

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buzz Clik]

14. Wherever there is violence, the only answer is Weapons. Lots of weapons and lethal force.

[GreenStormCloud]

36. Defensive violence works better than being a passive victim. N/T

[Buzz Clik]

plus or minus a few innocent bystanders. But, they should have been packing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. I'm sure a thoughtful poster such as yourself has some examples to show us.

Being known for intellectual rigor and all that....

[Buzz Clik]

44. ... and now the insults! woohoo!

[rl6214]

50. So does that mean you don't have any examples?

No insults here. I would just like to see the examples.

[friendly_iconoclast]

60. Sarcasm, most certainly. Insults- no. Again, any examples?

Take your time. Wouldn't want you to feel rushed or anything....

[spin]

71. Those who support firearms rights like to use and see examples ...

in our discussions.

Sometimes it all too easy to post words and not back them up with links.

This fails to impress us.

[rrneck]

61. You forgot the sarcasm thingy. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

15. As a Unitarian Universalist

And knowing what happened in one of our churches a couple of summers ago? I'm not too concerned about a concealed weapon. And at that time of that shooting, I was all up in arms over the destruction of a banner in support GLBT members of the church in Rochester NY that I jumped from Christianity into. So uh - yep - the right wing wingnuts have escalated and as a member of a liberal faith - if it minimizes the number of Unitarians shot by a whack job - then so be it.

[Common Sense Party]

17. No, never...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWlUQXdmnBw

OK, sometimes. But religious people don't need to defend themselves, right? Jesus will save them.

:sarcasm:

[rl6214]

11. If it's concealed, how does that affect you?

[Buzz Clik]

16. um.... when it is no longer concealed?

[Common Sense Party]

19. So you have no problem with concealed weapons in church, since they

in no way affect you? Good. I'm glad that's settled.

[Buzz Clik]

24. Not settled. Keep you guns in the car.

If you feel that Jeebus cannot save you, phone it in or watch on tv.

[Common Sense Party]

43. Of course it's settled. You said so yourself. If it's concealed, it doesn't affect you.

[Buzz Clik]

45. No it isn't

[Common Sense Party]

53. You yourself said, until it's no longer concealed, it doesn't affect you.

Especially since you don't go to church.

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. If the church and congregation are copacetic, who are you to say otherwise?

Looks like certain haters of the Second Amendment are now starting in on the First....

[rl6214]

55. And now the insults begin...

[rl6214]

20. Can you show me where all the problems that have occured

at a church "when it is no longer concealed?"

I'm sure you must be able to find all sorts of them.

Funny how I carry 99.9% of the time and my carry weapon has not just mysteriously become "no longer concealed".

I don't carry in church because I don't go to church but if someone wants that right they should have it.

[Buzz Clik]

25. Let the ranting begin!!!!

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. It was a simple question. do you have an answer for it?

[Buzz Clik]

41. You wanted an answer? You should have stopped your diatribe after the question.

I don't go to church. Take your gun and save the world. I don't care.

When I used to go to church, I was never frightened enough to even think about carrying a gun. Do you find church to be that scary?

[Common Sense Party]

46. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWlUQXdmnBw

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14808321/detail.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. I don't know, haven't been in years. Nor do I own a gun.

And oddly enough, I don't have a problem with those who carry a gun to church, as long as the church itself is down with the idea.

[rl6214]

58. Again, no answer

because you can't find one.

Talk about a diatribe.

How dishonest.

[rl6214]

56. No ranting, you just cannot defend your comments

so you deflect.

[benEzra]

125. Because $DEITY doesn't like them? Did He/She tell you directly?

Or is it because churches are Holy Ground(TM) and guns are Sinful?

Objectively speaking, it's a good thing that a parishioner with a carry license and a Beretta was at the New Life Church on December 9, 2007.

[Ezlivin]

2. It's biblical

[jpak]

4. I saw that on a slice of toast this AM!

it's a MIRACLE!!1111

:D

[Vanje]

3. What would Jesus Shoot?

[Buzz Clik]

13. Only the hard hitting stuff

[Katya Mullethov]

93. Palestinians

If he had to shoot anyone , statistically at least .

[Common Sense Party]

113. Jesus was a Palestinian.

So he'd be shooting himself, and Mary and Joseph?

[Buzz Clik]

5. Well, in St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians he made it very clear:

"It was through his love for you that he was crucified and sacrificed himself for your sins.
"But, if he had been properly armed, he would have put all of them in the ground."

Says it all for me.

[ileus]

7. I carried my LCP yesterday to church... +1 LG

[Common Sense Party]

8. Peter carried.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything--much like most of your posts.

[pnwmom]

12. Crosses, not guns, belong in Christian churches. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

18. There's enough square footage for both. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

32. I can see it now -- all the various religious icons peppered with bullet holes...

because the parishioners got bored. Not unlike the highway signs on country roads.

[Common Sense Party]

39. Just more incentive for the preacher to jazz up his sermons. n/t

[hack89]

94. That picture is from Sardinia. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

27. How tacky of them not to consult you first.

The nerve of some people, running their places of worship without asking others how it should be done...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

21. "...a 'good and sufficient reason' to carry a weapon..."

"If the Anti-Christ shows up, I want to pop a few caps in him."

[left is right]

23. seems inconsistent

after all they sing asongs about being in God's protective care. do they or do they not believe that God is there shield/defender?

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Hardly. Jesus did tell his crew to buy swords if they didn't have one already.

[jpak]

31. Now that I never heard before - swords?

really?

[Buzz Clik]

34. Here's the quote:

"Get thee to Julius' World of Swords and Shields! Gird thyselves and smite them."

[jpak]

47. Wow - Jebus was a badass

who knew?

:rofl:

[friendly_iconoclast]

66. Bzzt!. Luke 22:36. "Whoever has no sword is to sell his cloak and buy one"

Can we assume your other posts have the same level of accuracy?

[pnwmom]

83. So he can turn it into a ploughshare, obviously. n/t

[pnwmom]

86. Context is everything. The context of that quote

was talking about what the followers should do when they are out in the world, facing enemies; not what they should have with them when they are worshipping with fellow Christians.

[pnwmom]

42. Jesus often used metaphors. He didn't mean that literally.

And if you think he did, then a sword is not a gun.

[rl6214]

62. Arms

similar to what is used in the period.

[pnwmom]

64. Either he's literal or not. If he wasn't being literal, as I believe,

than there is no directive to carry weapons at all.

If he was being literal, as you claim to think, then he was referring to swords. A knife might be similar, but a gun is entirely different.

[friendly_iconoclast]

68. In much the same way the 1st Amendment refers to quill pens and Gunteberg presses?

[pnwmom]

89. Quill pens aren't in the 1st amendment.

Neither are a specific brand of presses.

[rl6214]

116. Yet many on the anti gun side will say if we want to carry guns

let them be muskets. I don't think the 2a says anything about muskets.

[pnwmom]

67. And all along I thought swords were supposed

to be turned into ploughshares.

But they're really supposed to be turned into GUNS.

Learn something new on DU every day.

:sarcasm:

[GreenStormCloud]

70. Perhaps you should read Joel 3:10

Joel 3:10
Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!”

I bet that one surprised you. The Bible clearly allows self-defense with deadly force.

[jpak]

75. The bible can justifiy any and all inhumanity, violence and murder

yup

[rrneck]

76. Well I'll be damned

We agree on something.

[pnwmom]

81. You knew that was a joke quote, right? n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

118. No joke. Look it up yourself. N/T

[PavePusher]

107. Face-Palm.

Apply repeatedly, with increasing force, until you have a clue.

[pnwmom]

80. LOL. n/t

[RSillsbee]

74. He must have meant it literally

He certainly knew Peter was carrying a sword in the garden.

[spin]

77. The sword was the handgun of its day ...

The gladius was the sword used by the Roman soldiers from the 4th century BC - 3rd century AD.



If the Brady Campaign had been around back then, they would have called the Gladius an assault sword and tried to ban them.



I would rather be shot then stabbed by a Gladuis.

A quick video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7X2KhsmASM&feature=related


edited for typo

[pnwmom]

82. The Bible says swords are to be turned into plowshares.

And spears into pruning hooks.

Clearly, guns are supposed to be turned into irrigation systems.

:)

[Glassunion]

84. What book is that in?

[pnwmom]

85. Isaiah 2: 1-5

And Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they are the children of God."

(He didn't say, "for they are a fancy weapons system.")

[Glassunion]

88. Ok... Where is the mention of irrigation systems?

Missed that part.

[pnwmom]

90. That was a joke. Geez. That's why

I included the smiley face.

[Glassunion]

92. WWWWWWWWOooOoooooooosh!!!

Right over my head...

:toast:

[TPaine7]

95. "42. Jesus often used metaphors. He didn't mean that literally."

Why doesn't that principle of exegesis apply to your quotation as well?

The problem with making up interpretations based on your personal beliefs is that what you don't want to believe is too easy to get rid of and what you like is too easy to uphold.

Unless you can give a principled reason why one is metaphor and the other is literal, you should leave Jesus out of it and just admit it's your opinion.

[pnwmom]

101. If he meant it literally, then he was only referring to swords -- not guns,

which didn't exist.

If he meant it figuratively, he still isn't advocating for guns.

[TPaine7]

104. Come now, that seems to be shaky ground on which to take a stand.

Jesus' teachings were based in principle. What is the difference, in principle, between a sword in the context of the ancient world and a gun in the modern world?

Let's look at the similarities:

Both carried by military and civilians
Both carried by law enforcement
Both capable of offensive and defensive use
Both state of the art weapons for personal use
Both morally neutral

If you agree that Jesus was a man of principle, it would seem you must also agree that guns are OK now if swords were OK then.

We use arguments from principle all the time. It's so natural it's unconscious.

What would you think of a person who used your logic on the Bill of Rights?:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The First Amendment was only referring to presses -- not blogs, internet posting, texting, twitter, Facebook, or even telegraphs...which didn't exist.

How much traction would that get?

Whether you're an atheist or a fundamentalist, it is hard to conceive an honest, reasonably intelligent person who can deny the obvious. Jesus (as a real or fictional character) was at least as much about principles as is the Bill of Rights. Ergo, if swords were OK, so are guns.

[spin]

97. The Bible says a lot of things...

13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the LORD your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.
Deuteronomy 13:13-19 (New International Version, ©2011)

[Glassunion]

98. God guards the outcome for the individual.

The individual need to use what God provides.

Sort of like quitting your job and expecting God to feed and house you. Does not work that way according to the bible.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. sure are a lot of really scared shitless people

[jpak]

30. President Obama scares them

They cling to....etc.

yup

[Buzz Clik]

35. The one's packing heat in a church? Damned straight!

[TheCowsCameHome]

59. Shhhh! Shhhh!

I think I saw something moving behind that stained glass window......

[spin]

78. In your view maybe, In mine there sure are a lot of people who are prepared ...

to take responsibly for their own self defense if absolutely necessary.

[Glassunion]

79. Your view is quite similar, IMHO to the teachings of the Bible.

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
1 Timothy 5:8

[pnwmom]

87. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they are the children of God. n/t

[Glassunion]

91. No less true than my quote.

However they refer to different subjects.

An individual can "provide for his own" and be a conciliator at the same time.

[pnwmom]

100. There are many more quotes attributed to Jesus that promote

pacifism and peace through non-violent ways than promote the use of swords or other weapons.

For example:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek


In the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus says:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV

In the sermon in the plain<1> in the Gospel of Luke, Jesus says:

27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
—Luke 6:27-31. KJV

[spin]

103. Perhaps Jesus was a far better person than I am ...

if defending myself from someone who intends to severely injure or possibly kill me is a sin, then so be it.

However it is possible that you are misinterpreting the message.

Turn the Other Cheek

Many have been confused by Jesus' statement, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well." (Matthew 5:39b)

***snip***

The proper interpretation of Jesus' words can be gained by paying attention to the specificity with which Jesus spoke. He specifically mentioned being struck on the "right" cheek. Why the right cheek? Why not the left cheek? Why not just speak of "your cheek" in a general sense? I am persuaded it is because Jesus was talking about how we respond to personal insults, not outright brutality.

Most people are right handed. If they mean to hit you they would hit you with their right arm, and their throw would land on your left cheek. Was Jesus talking about left-handed hitters, then? No. In ancient near eastern cultures a common insult was to slap someone across their face with the back of the hand. When a right-handed man slaps another individual with the back of his hand it lands on the victim's right cheek.

Jesus was not instructing us to allow ourselves to be beaten up by an attacker, but rather to resist the desire to retaliate against those who insult us.
http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/turncheek.htm

Obviously a man who is suing you is not threatening your life, the same applies if he forces you to go one mile. "Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." is just good advice. Being greedy doesn't lead to happiness.

edited for typos.

[pnwmom]

106. I think Jesus was saying to resist the desire to retaliate -- period.

And probably only a very few people in history, such as Ghandi, live up to most of what Jesus had to say.

Some people, given the difficulty of following exactly what Jesus said, solve the "problem" by watering-down or limiting what he said.

I think it is better if we accept that he meant what he said, and use the words to nudge us in the right direction, even if we can't get all the way there.

[PavePusher]

109. Self-defense is not "retaliation". n/t

[TPaine7]

110. All true.

But in the Sermon on the Mount he also said that if your eye causes you to sin, rip it out.

Once again, you need a logical and consistent reason to believe that the pacifism was literal but the self mutilation wasn't.

[Glassunion]

120. You have to take that sermon in context. Looking at the whole of what

he was referring to. Those particular verses in Matthew were him addressing a confusion, hence his phrase "You have heard that it was said" as opposed to "it was written" where he would directly be addressing existing scripture. Basically correcting what is being taught instead of what was written.

This "eye for and eye" and "tooth for a tooth" was in direct reference to Exodus 21:24-25 which deals with how the magistrate(or civil authority) must deal with a crime. Namely, the punishment must fit the crime. The religious leaders of Christ's day had twisted a passage that applied to the government and misused it as a principle of personal revenge. Christ was addressing the evil of personal vengeance. Starting with Exodus 21:12 and ending at 21:25 is where the rules of law concerning violence were dealt with.

In essence that the individual should not seek personal vengeance against an individual that does them wrong. That the civil authority will exercise an impartial judgement against the wrongdoer. Jesus is teaching us as individuals to forgive wrongs against us(hence that portion in the Lords prayer), but not that a person must falter before the wicked.

[spin]

96. I never go looking for trouble and I try to be polite to all ...

the last thing that I would ever want to do is to find myself in a position where I would find using my concealed weapon necessary to stop a person attacking me or someone I love with the intention of inflicting serious injury or with a desire to kill.

I practice situational awareness, which means that I am alert to my environment and I don't walk around with a cell phone glued to my ear. I don't do stupid things like visit an outdoor ATM at 3 am. If I suspect a problem will occur I avoid it. If someone starts an argument with me and I fear it may lead to a fight, I walk away. I may look like a coward to some, but that's far better than shooting someone who attacked me over some stupid disagreement.

I don't believe that I am a cop or a vigilante. I have no desire to be a hero.

I always try to treat others with respect and I'm not upset if they don't return the favor. I don't judge people. I hate prejudice and I avoid stereotyping people. Most religious people would not consider me religious but I avoid breaking the law (although I have been known to drive faster than the speed limit.) I try to help those who are less fortunate than myself .

Am I a peacekeeper? I wish to live in a peaceful society and I try to contribute by my behavior to that goal.

I do have a concealed weapons permit and I carry. I don't do so out of fear but because I feel an obligation to be responsible in all things including my own personal defense. I would never attack a person with the intention of harming them. I feel that I have a right to defend myself from those who would attack me.

However, if I was caught off guard and found myself confronted by some individual who merely wanted my money and intended no further harm, I would likely give it to him.

[pnwmom]

99. Do you even attend Church? If you do,

why not ask your pastor whether s/he approves of guns or other weapons coming into the sanctuary. Shouldn't it be his or her call?

[spin]

102. No, I do not attend church ...

I enjoy studying religion but I believe that money, power and prestige have corrupted religion.

If I did attend church and the pastor posted a "no-guns" sign on the front door of the church, I would go elsewhere. I occasionally go to a church for a wedding. When I do, I carry. Of course I carry everywhere.

Rather than not have a weapon and need one, I would rather have one and not need it. I have this view that if I prepare for something, it rarely happens. If I am totally unprepared I get screwed by fate. For example several years ago I bought a fairly large and expensive LCD TV. I decided not to buy insurance as I have never had a problem with any other TV I have bought. Just after the original manufacturer's warranty ran out, the TV took a crap. I paid a bundle to fix it and it failed again the next year for the same problem just after the repairman's guarantee ran out.

I bought a replacement and paid for a four year warranty. This TV will probably last 20 years without a problem just like the others I have owned. I'll replace it because new of new technology.

The Gods have a perverse sense of humor.

[pnwmom]

105. What if you went to a wedding and there was a no-guns sign?

Would you go back home?

[spin]

111. Actually, it would depend on who was getting married ...

if it was a close friend or relative, I might walk back to my vehicle and lock the firearm inside or I might decide to carry it anyway. Churches are not legally gun free zones in Florida. The worst thing that might happen is that I could be asked to leave if someone noticed my weapon. I've been carrying one for at least fifteen years and no one has noticed yet.

I've never seen a church with a "no-guns" sign on the door in Florida, so chances are I will never find myself in that position. I rarely see ANY no-gun signs in Florida except in those locations where carrying a firearm is against state law. Most people in Florida have become very comfortable with the concept of concealed carry since it passed in 1987.

[pnwmom]

114. You wouldn't be welcome to bring your concealed gun

into any Catholic Church in at least one neighboring state.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-07-21-guns20_ST_N.htm

[spin]

123. I haven't been in a Catholic Church in 44 years ...

and the last was the Basilica or the Saint Louis Cathedral that sits on Jackson Square in New Orleans. I haven't been in Louisiana in 42 years.

If the Catholics want to ban concealed weapon at their churches in Louisiana, it will have no effect on me.

[Glassunion]

124. So what is the problem?

The law that is being discussed allows for the same thing. The law does not force a church to do anything. The church has the choice to allow firearms or not.

As mentioned in the article you linked...
""I don't have a problem with them opting out of it," Burns said of Catholic bishops.
"It is a freedom of choice thing," he added.""

It is the same situation here.

[rl6214]

117. Peacemakers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Single_Action_Army

[Glassunion]

121. I was waiting to see how long it would take for that to pop up...

+1

[GreenStormCloud]

119. There is a reason why the Colt SAA of 1873 was called "The Peacemaker". N/T

[PavePusher]

108. 1.5 million violent crimes per year.

Seems a lot of people have excellent reason to be concerned, if not "scared".

[Union Scribe]

115. Yes, and they're all the ones fretting about what people are carrying with them.

[armueller2001]

122. "Jesus carried"

Possibly... but his disciples definitely carried the modern weapons of the day.

YUP