So... Mexico wants to sue U.S. gun makers?

[Glassunion]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20056210-10391695.html

I am quite confused by many things in this.

I noticed a few things in the article. Namely that the contract was signed on November 2, 2010 by a representative of Mexico's Attorney General, at their Washington embassy. Notice the date... This date is about six weeks before the murder of a U.S. border control agent, and two months before the “Project Gunrunner” controversy erupted. Could the recent scandal play a part in the lawsuit?

3 days later on Nov 5th, Mexico President Filipe Calderon released a statement where he said "We seized more than 90,000 weapons...I am talking like 50,000 assault weapons, AR-15 machine guns, more than 8,000 grenades and almost 10 million bullets. Amazing figures and according to all those cases, the ones we are able to track, most of these are American weapons." I will contend greatly with that statement.
1. We are up to 90,000 now? I find that one hard to believe. The Mexican Prosecutor General’s office had reported that between Dec. 1, 2005, and Jan. 22, 2009, Mexican authorities seized 31,512 weapons from the cartels. So, in a year and 4 months the Mexican authorities have seized 60,000 weapons?
2. Everything with the exception of bullets that the Mexican President mentioned cannot come the US civilian market. These are government to government sales.
3. Most of these did not come from the US... It is actually closer to 12 percent. How many of those 12 percent were government to government sales?


I noticed a few things absent from the article. The law firm retained by Mexico - New York based Reid Collins & Tsai. Here is a partner for that law firm. http://www.rctlegal.com/mmarmolejo.html Guess who is also a current federal judicial nominee for the United States District Court for the Southern District of Texas? I'm not sure if the case(if it ever makes it into a courtroom) would go to a district court first. But, it would be especially interesting to see the venue that the law firm chooses.

In asking my Magic-8-Ball how this lawsuit will go for Mexico. It replied "Outlook no so good"...

Some good articles on the drug and gun trade...
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090708_mexico_economics_and_arms_trade
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

A US campaign supported by the NSSF and the ATF.
http://www.dontlie.org

I do however applaud the Mexican President for actually getting off his ass and doing something other than paying lip service as his predecessors did. However I feel he is misguided and his efforts with this lawsuit will have no impact on Mexico's problems with drug cartels and will not stem the flow of guns into his country at all.

[Scuba]

1. Is there a decent reference on Project Gunrunner?

[Glassunion]

2. The Wiki is pretty good...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner

[Scuba]

3. Thanks.

[Scuba]

4. Excerpt from the Wiki link on Operation Gunrunner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner

<snip>

Indictments filed in federal court, documentation obtained by Senator Grassley, and statements of ATF agents obtained by Senator Grassley and CBS News, show that the ATF Phoenix Field Division allowed and facilitated the sale of over 2,500 firearms (AK-47 rifles, FN 5.7mm pistols, AK-47 pistols, and .50 caliber rifles) in 'straw man purchases' destined for Mexico. <17><24><25><26><27><28>According to ATF agents, Mexican officials were not notified, and ATF agents operating in Mexico were instructed not to alert Mexican authorities about the operation.<29> Some ATF agents and supervisors strongly objected, and gun dealers (who were cooperating with ATF) protested the sales, but were asked by ATF to complete the transactions to elucidate the supply chain and gather intelligence.<17><30> However, there are accusations that the ATF was attempting to boost statistics to 'prove' that American guns are arming the Mexican drug cartels and to further budget and power objectives.

<end snip>

More that 2,500 high-caliber semi (fULLY??)- automatic weapons is a LOT of firepower. Fifty caliber rifles arevery heavy duty and the others could be equipped with very high capacity magazines.


I hope Grassley and his colleagues keep digging. Sounds like we make lousy neighbors.



(edited for spelling)

[Glassunion]

5. The key words were "allowed and facilitated"

But I would have to assume that the were indeed semi auto. Fully auto is a long and arduous process to purchase in the US.

[Katya Mullethov]

10. They dutifully left out the years of preparatory work

With the constant drum beat of an "Iron River" of rifles and grenades flowing into Mexico . News stories that rose in intensity to a fevered pitch by December But once the wrong people got shot that iron river dried up in a week . We saw what you did there .

The iron River was a complete construct and an integral part of the gunrunner strategy and I have heard the Secretary of State complain about it enough the last couple of years to know that , quite frankly , this thing is too big to fail .

[lawodevolution]

6. The Mexican president is a lying sack of mierda and he is the leader of one of the most corrupt

Governments on earth.

[WatsonT]

7. But anti-gunners here are eating this story up

maybe he thought he'd go for a hail mary: push the blame on to the US and maybe get some concessions. If nothing else it looks like he stood up to the gringos which certainly won't hurt his reelection chances.

[baldguy]

8. How should we treat corporations whose irresponsible actions cause people to die?

[oneshooter]

9. What "irresponsible actions " did they do? n/t

[Taitertots]

11. Only if we get to sue the Mexican government for being complicit in the drug trade n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. "The biggest arms dealers in the world...

...are the US, UK, Russia, France and China...


They are also the five permanent members of the UN Security Council."
-Andrew Niccol; _Lord of War_

;)

[Remmah2]

13. New levels of savagery in Mexico

Will the Mexican government be suing Black and Decker and Craftsman next?

I wonder if things would be different if the average Mexican citizen had the "right to bear arms"?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mass-graves-in-mexico-reveal-new-levels-of-savagery/2011/04/23/AFPoasbE_story.html?hpid=z3

[Glassunion]

14. In all honesty, I think the dead were most likely herded to their death by those

with guns.

It is a despicable situation with no easy solution. I think step 1 should be legalizing drugs in the US. This one step I think would have the biggest impact. The only way to know is to try.

I would however love to have this lawsuit move forward. Some true an honest numbers about these guns they are getting from crime scenes would be interesting. How many of the "American" sourced guns were sold to the Mexican Government by the US Government? This case I think would open a lot of people's eyes.

[gravity556]

15. No kidding.

I'd just *love* to see the numbers on these guns that Mexico is claiming came from gun shows in the US. I'd also love to see the lot numbers on the crates of ammo as well as accountability for hand grenades as well as 40mm launched grenades. How much of that stuff do you think got sold off to pay for some supply clerk's "vacation".

Also, AR15 rifles are semi-automatic. 1 pull of the trigger, 1 round goes downrange. M16s, on the other hand, fire until the trigger is released, since they are, well, machine guns.

And let me clear this up as well..

"More that 2,500 high-caliber semi (fULLY??)- automatic weapons is a LOT of firepower. Fifty caliber rifles are very heavy duty and the others could be equipped with very high capacity magazines."

Any actual machine guns that the cartels have were either stolen from the Mexican army and police or were purchased from other countries further south or even directly from China. They certainly aren't snapping up MGs at gun shows-and anoyone who tells you that they are is so full of shit his eyes are brown.. Ammo? Maybe-still cheaper to buy in bulk from actual arms dealers than pay for overpriced ammo at the gun show. Semi-auto weapons? Sure, those can be had at a gun show, but if you were going to spend money, wouldn't it make more sense to buy 2 full auto AKs from Venezuela for 800 bucks than it would to buy 1 semi-auto AK clone at a gun show?

Also, what is a "high caliber" weapon? The slug that leaves the barrel of an AR15 is only .224 inches in diameter and weighs only 55 grains. I have some rounds for my .357 that are pushing 158 grains, but they're still only 1/3 of an inch in diameter. The mighty satellite downing, time/space continuum hole tearing, capable of hitting a target from a mile away (when using the very best in scopes, spotting scopes, weather computers and spotter and shooter-because let's face it, very very few people on the planet are that good with a rifle) dreaded .50 BMG is still only 1/2 inch in diameter. Also, what is a "very high capacity magazine"? Kinda curious..

[Glassunion]

16. Some answers...

Q: Also, what is a "high caliber" weapon?
A: According to some, anything greater than .17 HM2

Q: What is a "very high capacity magazine"
A: 11+