Dad who split up fight MacDonald's shot dead - in UK

[RamboLiberal]

A DAD-of-four who split up a fight in a McDonald’s was shot dead moments after being told he wouldn’t see the morning.

Raymond Mitchell, 34, had only popped into the restaurant to buy a hot chocolate.

But he apparently caused offence after splitting up two men fighting in the queue.

One of them, who had several gold teeth, shouted at Raymond: “You are gonna die tonight, you are not gonna see the morning.”

The thug is then said to have phoned an accomplice to fetch a gun, yelling into his mobile: “Bring me that thing.”



Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/04/21/dad-who-split-up-fight-in-mcdonald-s-shot-dead-115875-23075797/#ixzz1KPkmqn7Q

And in the UK he had no damn chance to defend himself.

[ZombieHorde]

1. McDonald's seems to be a very scary place. nt

[GKirk]

21. I'm guessing you're joking

seeing how there are over 31,000 McDonalds restaurants in the world.
One could expect trouble at one occaisionally.

[ZombieHorde]

23. Yes, I made a joke because there were two threads yesterday, including this one, where something

scary happened at a McDonalds. But I recognize the calorie content of the food is usually the scariest thing in those restaurants.

[PavePusher]

2. But, but, but.... Law-abiding Citizens.....

are SAFER when they're disarmed. That's what we keep getting told here, right...?

[madinmaryland]

3. Why does this show up on DU??

Un-recced.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lawodevolution]

6. Did you make the same comments in the other threads about Individuals shot

Or are you a hypocrite

[The Doctor.]

9. Huh? Seriously... What do you mean?

Are you saying that the UK's restrictive gun laws prevented this murder?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pacalo]

7. This is very disturbing.

I had been looking at the high number of YT videos of violent incidents at McD's. There's an obvious need for security guards, especially as the economy gets worse & tempers get shorter. If there had been a security guard on duty, that poor man would not have felt the need to stop the violence. Or, perhaps the fight wouldn't have been allowed to happen.

I'm not against people owning guns, but carrying guns isn't the answer. Let the security guards & the police handle thugs like these.

[PavePusher]

8. The man was chased into an alley.

Security Guards will not persue off-property, unless duly authorized-not gonna happen for private property and buisnesses. And where exactly were the police who are supposed to "handle thugs like these"? That doesn't seem to have worked very well, does it?

[pacalo]

10. A security guard could have prevented a fight or stopped it quickly.

Then there would be no need for a customer to do what McD's should have felt the responsibility to handle on its own property.

[PavePusher]

12. And that would have stopped the subsequent pursuit?

You don't seem to be thinking this through...

[pacalo]

25. If there had been a security guard, there would have been no fight.

[PavePusher]

27. Facts not in evidence.

Security guards seldom prevent fights. They can usually stop them after they start, but not always.

[pacalo]

32. Then they should hire an off-duty policeman.

[rrneck]

34. You've got all kinds of answers

that involve somebody else paying for your security. Nice corporate risk dispersion there.

[PavePusher]

37. How many of them are available? And for what hours?

They have to sleep sometime, you know.

At what point do you take responsibility for your own security, and refuse to let the government restrict your options without remediation?

[gejohnston]

40. can they do that in the UK?

[jeepnstein]

45. I'm in favor of that.

I get $25 an hour for a gig like that. If every fast food place in the country had to hire a security detail it would be fantastic. Sign me up for three nights a week.

You do know we have lots more fast food places than there are cops to protect them 24/7, don't you?

[YllwFvr]

57. For the most part

The job of security is to be a good witness and contact the police. They arent getting paid to get beat on, and having security wade into a fight makes the employer responsible for any injuries and leaves them open to being sued.

[TPaine7]

39. No one should be forced to depend on security guards for protection in a restaurant.

Here's a thread on security guard protection:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x290120

And police have no legal obligation to protect you.

[cleanhippie]

47. No, not "would have been", but "MAY have been".

[Atypical Liberal]

16. I don't understand this logic.

I'm not against people owning guns, but carrying guns isn't the answer. Let the security guards & the police handle thugs like these.

If firearms are useful at preventing violent crime in the hands of security guards and police, then why aren't they useful at preventing violent crime when in the hands of actual victims? Why should people have to hope that someone is nearby to rescue them and wait for rescue?

Especially when the data shows that people with CCW permits are many, many times less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than average citizens without a permit?

[pacalo]

30. To prevent innocent bystanders from getting caught in the middle of gunfire.

If a security guard had been there, there would have been no fight. The customer would have gone about his business in a safe environment.

It makes me feel safer to have trained law enforcement handle the guns over a society of free-carrying who-knows-whats itching for a reason to use their weapons.

[gejohnston]

41. two problems with your logic

you are assuming that everyone is itching for a fight. An assumption with no empirical evidence is a value judgement.
and assuming that citizens are not as well trained as police. Not always. Most civilians go to the range more often because they want to, kind of like golf. Many of us have been target shooting or hunting since childhood. Cops not so much. In New Zealand, a handgun owner must go to the gun club and shoot twice as much as the police. Why? No clue, since there is no CCW or anything like that.

[Atypical Liberal]

46. But this never happens.

To prevent innocent bystanders from getting caught in the middle of gunfire.

We know that CCW permit holders are less likely to cause collateral damage than the police do during a shooting.

If a security guard had been there, there would have been no fight. The customer would have gone about his business in a safe environment.

Um, I don't think you read the article. A security guard was there, and he used his gun to shoot and kill one of the two armed robbers. A security guard is just a civilian being paid to do guard duty.

It makes me feel safer to have trained law enforcement handle the guns over a society of free-carrying who-knows-whats itching for a reason to use their weapons.

But why do you feel that way? Did you know that CCW permit holders are less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than non-CCW permit holders? The rate of conviction of CCW permit holders in Texas is about .026%. This is for everything from Public Lewdness to Homicide. CCW permit holders are hyper-law-abiding citizens.

Your impression of CCW permit holders as being "free-carrying who-knows-whats itching for a reason to use their weapons" is an incorrect prejudice.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Law enforcement makes up what, 0.0052% of the population?

We're going to need a bigger boat....load full of police officers.

[YllwFvr]

58. 17 year veteran officer near me

Pulls out his gun on duty, showing it off to a friend in a grocery store. Pulls the trigger for some reason and shoots himself in the hand.

The level of training you are recieved isnt on par with your assumptions I think.

[Logical]

17. So if the police is not there in time, what is your solution? n-t

[pacalo]

26. Again, if there had been a security guard, there would have been no fight.

[rrneck]

29. If you had ever worked security

you would know that they are there to watch and call the cops- not intervene.

Security guards are just private citizens getting paid not much more than minimum wage. Don't bet your life on them.

[pacalo]

31. Then a policeman should be used instead.

[rrneck]

35. Police officers in the employ

of corporations for security. What could go wrong? It's not like cops have never cracked any skulls in the service of corporate security before.

[YllwFvr]

56. We cant stop it if we arent there nt

[reggie the dog]

11. most cops in the uk dont even have guns

and so calling the cops wouldnt have helped, it would have taken a while for the special cops with guns to arrive. i wish the law permitted me to have a gun on the street here in france but i can only have and use a gun to defend myself in my home. the crossbow is the same, fine at home, not so legal in the street.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. Ah, I see. Restrictive gun laws make gun crime more frequent.

That's why the UK has much more gun crime than the US.

Oh, wait...

[intaglio]

14. My, My, My anyone would think you had an agenda

So, think a fire fight in a restaurant is a good idea?

Do you think that, maybe, a criminal in the States would have had the gun already and so more people would be dead?

Do you think that everyone who legally has a gun in the states carries it to MacDonald's?

Or are you just selling your perverted view of freedom?

[oneshooter]

18. Only if they are properly licensed, or open carry is allowed.

Apparently the tough standards that UK law has concerning handgun possession failed in this case. Directly resulting in this mans death.
In the US we have the right, in most places, to defend ourselves against those who would do violence against us.


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Straw Man]

43. And you DON'T have an agenda?

Or are you just selling your perverted view of freedom?

Authoritarians like to portray freedom as perversion. It's what they do.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

48. So, what you are saying is, "I have nothing to add of substance, so I will just insult you."?

Stay classy.

[GKirk]

20. Why was this included in the story:

"One of them, who had several gold teeth, shouted at Raymond"

What kind of conclusion are they trying to lead me to?

[ZombieHorde]

24. It is an unusual physical trait. I don't know anyone with gold teeth. Do you? nt

[Glassunion]

44. I have a gold tooth...

But you can't see it even if I smile. It's a cap all the way in the back on the upper row.

Now you know someone with gold teeth(tooth).

[AtheistCrusader]

51. He gets into fights a lot, and needed replacement teeth?

:shrug:

[spin]

22. Obviously some criminals have access to firearms in the U.K.

Who would have thought?

[DissedByBush]

53. Yeah, criminals do tend to obey firearm bans

Just like they obey all of the other laws.

Oh wait, they're criminals, they don't obey the laws.

[lawodevolution]

28. Too bad effective self defense techniques are illegal in the UK, this guy had no chance

Criminals are emboldened when they know their victims are disarmed.

[pacalo]

33. But if McD's had a policeman on the premises, there would have been no fight,

no involvement of another customer, & no pursuit into an alley. McD's property would have been a safer environment.

[rrneck]

36. Good idea

Lets see, how many cops do you think it would take to cover every business in the UK, or more to the point in the United States?

[PavePusher]

38. You keep saying this.

But where is your evidence? Fights happen in front of police all the time. So do actual murders.

Why are you so adament about not taking responsibility for yourself?

[gejohnston]

42. Are cops allowed to moonlight in UK?

Can't project our society or culture on to another.

[cleanhippie]

49. So you now advocate for armed security everywhere you go?

At least it will help with the employment issue.

[aikoaiko]

52. Yes, a policeman in every store, on every corner, and standing in front of over home.

Really? I don't think I want that much police in my life.

[LibertyFox]

54. Requires a lot of foresight.

Otherwise you're looking at absurd costs placing security everywhere there could potentially be violence.

[oneshooter]

55. Would you be willing to pay enough taxes for this to happen in La.? n/t

[YllwFvr]

59. It would be dept policy whether he

Could take side work like that. Toss up. Id guess no