CONCEALED CARRY, the best affirmative action

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

Excerpted from Rutgers Law Review (1995) LIBERALIZING THE CONCEALED CARRY OF HANDGUNS BY QUALIFIED CIVILIANS: THE CASE FOR "CARRY REFORM" by John C. Lenzen

Other data indicate that more prevalent concealed carry may be a powerful weapon in the fight against violent crime in two ways: (1) empowering individuals to defend against violent crime; and (2) deterring the commission of violent crimes in general.

• First, the carrying of firearms by qualified civilians enables individuals to stop some crimes from being committed.
  
• Certainly there are instances in which it does not matter whether one is armed, for example, when a victim cannot draw his or her handgun safely. In these cases, the mere possession of a handgun does not force the victim to do anything unwise or unsafe. An armed victim is as free as an unarmed victim to succumb to the perpetrator. There are times, however, when victims may resist safely. Concealed carry reform empowers people to decide, rationally, when and where to resist.

Consequently, opponents to carry reform advance a number of arguments: that everyone will be armed and we will be surrounded by people "packing heat" (generally accompanied by a disparaging remark about the "wild west"); that ordinary arguments will escalate into shootouts, that those who are armed will "look for trouble" or be more aggressive than usual; that innocent bystanders will be shot by irresponsible armed civilians; and that it is statistically safer not to resist crimes than to do so with a handgun. Not one of these claims is empirically sound in light of recent statistical evidence and the experiences of the carry reform states. (emphasis added)

The empirical evidence from those states with liberal concealed carry laws strongly suggests that carry reform in New Jersey would not threaten public safety. Other data indicate that more prevalent concealed carry may be a powerful weapon in the fight against violent crime in two ways:

1. empowering individuals to defend against violent crime; and
   
2. deterring the commission of violent crimes in general.

First, the carrying of firearms by qualified civilians enables individuals to stop some crimes from being committed. Certainly there are instances in which it does not matter whether one is armed, for example, when a victim cannot draw his or her handgun safely. In these cases, the mere possession of a handgun does not force the victim to do anything unwise or unsafe. An armed victim is as free as an unarmed victim to succumb to the perpetrator. There are times, however, when victims may resist safely. Concealed carry reform empowers people to decide, rationally, when and where to resist.

Second, there is a sizable body of empirical evidence indicating that widespread concealed carry may have a deterrent effect on violent crime by causing criminals to fear that their intended victims might resist with swift and deadly force. (emphasis added) Statistical data indicate that private citizens already use firearms to justifiably kill significant numbers of felons. Quasi-experimental evidence illustrates that well publicized campaigns to increase the perception that the general population is armed correlate strongly with reductions in certain violent crimes. Finally, survey data gathered from incarcerated felons show that criminals are well aware of the danger posed by armed victims and adjust their behavior accordingly.

Taken as a whole, this evidence suggests that more widespread and well-publicized concealed carry may reduce the rates of violent crime by deterring criminal behavior. (emphasis added)

Do you live in a city or state where concealed carry is the privilege of the connected, rich, famous, favored, politician or cop and/or friends or relatives thereof?

Start a movement. Write to a representative, mayor, governor and/or legislator.

[sharesunited]

1. The risk of having guns around is ignored and the risk of crime to use them against is exaggerated.

[Hepburn]

2. I would have to agree with that statement.

Asking people I know who have had or currently have guns, not one of them ever had to use one to defend him/her self, the home or another from any harm or crime. This issue has always interested me because so often gun owners say that the gun is necessary for protection ~~ but no gun owner with whom I discussed this issue thank gawd) has ever had to use their gun for any reasone of protection.

[eqfan592]

5. Which would mean something...

...if the gun owners you talked to were the only gun owners in the nation. However, they are not. I HAVE spoken to gun owners who have had to use their firearms for protection. It can and does happen.

Folks like Sharesunited ignore defensive gun use and exaggerate gun ownership risks. End of story.

[Hepburn]

38. That would mean something if YOU had talked to all the gun owners.

Duh...end of story.

[Hangingon]

42. So, the folks I talked to who had fire insurance have not used it

therefore, I can cancel my fire insurance. Great to know.

[provis99]

51. you should cancel. Fire insurance is a racket.

Heck, all insurance is a racket.

[spin]

84. I was the only person on my street who had flood insurance ...

the first time my house flooded. It's amazing how much damage a six of inches of water can do.

It only flooded two times in the thirty two years I lived there.

I never had a fire, but next next door neighbor left some food on the stove and left for Thanksgiving. She was glad she had fire insurance.

[RSillsbee]

50. I've used a gun to defend myself from a wanna be mugger one time

and that's all the gun owners I'm concerned about

[Euromutt]

75. Wrong; anecdotal evidence can disprove a general rule

Just as one black swan disproves that all swans are white (even though it doesn't tell you how many swans are black, except "more than zero"), one gun owner who's used his or her weapon in self-defense disproves that firearms are never needed "for any reason of protection."

[rrneck]

10. How do the gun owners know

that the presence of the gun protected them?

The "bad guys" evaluate their victims and make a risk assessment. If the potential victim might be able to punch a hole in him the crime simply won't happen.

[spin]

54. True, don't walk around with a cell phone stuck to your ear ...

practice "situational awareness".

Only use your concealed weapon when there is absolutely no choice. If all your attacker wants is your money, just give it up. Your money, your drivers license and your credit cards can be replaced. Your health and your life can't.

But if you face an attacker who you seriously believe plans to harm or kill you, you have little to lose if you resist. A firearm may well be the most effective method of resistance.

Predators are looking for the weakest victims. Don't look weak or not alert and the predator may simply ignore you.

[rrneck]

55. I've always heard its a good idea

to carry a fake wallet with a little cash and some expired credit cards...

[spin]

56. My judo and jujitsu instructor always recommended that idea. (n/t)

[GreenStormCloud]

14. I, on the other hand, know several people who have had DGUs.

Two different people used their guns against a burglar, one against a car jacker, my wife twice used hers against a mugger and once when she was young (we are both senior citizens now) she defended against a rapist using her mother's shotguns. In each case the burglar, jacker, mugger, rapist ran away, no shots fired.

Maybe you should meet and discuss with people beyond your circle.

[aikoaiko]

28. Hepburn, you live in CA. How many people do you know who carry concealed?

:shrug:

[Hepburn]

39. A lot...

...most are ex cops, PIs, some with permits because of the business he or she is in. Maybe about 10 with carry permits and beyond that...a lot of people who are gun owners, traders, collectors, etc. So in addition to the carry permit people, I probably know about 30 - 40 people who have guns in their homes...and I am not referring to hunting rifles that are put away except for hunting season.

[PavePusher]

70. So, in other words, the people you know who carry are, due to your location...

and/or their jobs, members of the priviliged elite, and you apparently live in an affluent area where crime is probably fairly low.

Not sure how that applies to the rest of the state, but I'll bet that Citizen Joe Average can't get a carry permit in your county.

[CreekDog]

3. +1

[eqfan592]

8. Actually, it's the other way around.

For you anyway. The risk is of having guns around is exaggerated (to an unbelievable level) and the risk of crime that they can protect from completely ignored.

If a gun owner follows basic safety steps, then the risks are almost nil. The accidental discharge rate has been in steady decline for many years now.

[sharesunited]

13. Here's a link to go with your morning coffee.

http://www.kitv.com/r/28122471/detail.html

[eqfan592]

16. And here's a link to go with yours

http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

Peer reviewed study > anecdotal evidence

[spin]

18. Great link. Thanks. (n/t)

[eqfan592]

26. No problem. :) nt

[sharesunited]

36. A 16 year old academic article can't compete with the daily news, sorry.

And another story just like today's will be available tomorrow, if not sooner.

[cleanhippie]

43. Well, of course not. Everyone KNOWS that fiction trumps fact.

At least to you it does.

[sharesunited]

45. What about the Oahu story do you claim to be fiction?

[cleanhippie]

47. I never said the Oahu story was fiction.

[eqfan592]

65. LOL, I see, so all peer reviewed research....

...has to get tossed out now after a certain date??

What's really amazing is the violent crime rate has actually dropped significantly since the writing of that study, not increased.

Shares, no matter how many anecdotes you find, you'll never find enough to fight that reality, because there aren't enough of them to begin with, which is kind of the point.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

79. knee.......JERK.......n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. Sometimes, on release from...

...extended incarceration some inmates experience a certain "fear of freedom". However, there are members of society that manifest a condition known as Eleutherophobia. For treatment suggestions: Eleutherophobia treatment.

[rl6214]

57. Only in your mind. In the mind of most it is reversed

[Atypical Liberal]

82. Tough Taters.

The risk of having guns around is ignored and the risk of crime to use them against is exaggerated.

I'm not going to allow the actions of the few to be used as an excuse to infringe on the rights of everyone else.

I don't care how remote the risk of violent crime is - I demand the right to have the tools to defend myself from that threat, and I won't let anyone take that right away from me.

Yes, bad people are also going to get firearms and do bad things with them. This has been the case for hundreds of years. But I'm not going to allow their actions to be used as an excuse to render every victim of violent crime impotent.

[CreekDog]

4. Concealed carry will help eliminate discrimination and disparate treatment by race?

that's what affirmative action is designed to do.

are you suggesting concealed weapons would take care of that too?

(probably not, but you were so careless that you don't seem to understand the terms you are throwing around)

[eqfan592]

6. Many view income discrimination...

..in the same light as race discrimination, given the comparative poverty level. So I would hesitate to accuse the OP of not understanding the terms being used.

[CreekDog]

7. so carrying concealed weapons fixes income inequality?

:rofl:

i wonder how that's supposed to work? :dilemma:

[eqfan592]

9. Ummm, exactly when did I say that?

I was talking about discrimination BASED ON income inequality, not FIXING that inequality. Are you unable to see the difference???

Perhaps you should spend less time trying to be funny and more time actually paying attention to what people say.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

34. My boss, several jobs ago...

...mentioned that we have 1 mouth and 2 ears and that the ratio of usage should match that.

I replied that I had heard was, in some cases it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. ;)

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. NOT.

"Affirmative Action" was ordered by JFK in 1961 but was later expanded to include the attribute of gender and not only race.

I am suggesting that by taking AN "affirmative action" the overall freedoms and liberties inherent in our nature and guaranteed by our Bill of Rights might be better secured and that we will, in general, in the words of the attorney writing the quoted article, be safer.


Possibly you lack the experience of close a "close encounter"?
(I hope I didn't misuse another term which I don't understand.)

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eqfan592]

12. Am I safe in thinking....

...there should be a sarcasm tag in there? :P

[GreenStormCloud]

15. Then why hasn't it already happened.

There are about 10 million people with permits and four states that don't require permits. Certainly if the massacre should have happened already if it were going to happen. That massacre seems to be an item of faith for you.

[MineralMan]

17. That's about 3% of the population. Of those, how many

carry all the time? Few, I suspect. All of which means that the odds are low that anyone around you is armed. I'd be willing to bet that it's just a fraction of 1%, and maybe a small fraction at that.

The odds are strongly in favor of the crook, not the armed citizen. There's no massacre because so few people are armed, in reality. Wherever you go, look around you. If you see 100 people, there's a strong chance that not one of them is carrying. For the armed robber or whatever, the risk is very small of encountering an armed person.

[lawodevolution]

21. Incorrect, when someone gets a permit most will carry at some point

When you go to walmart in Texas about one in 20 has a gun concealed. I know of quite a few people with CHL's and they carry all the time except at work.

[Hepburn]

40. Brings the term "People of WalMart" to a whole new level!

:scared:

Would you like to have this guy walking around with a concealed weapon????

[PavePusher]

41. So, you think a T-shirt tells the entire story of a person?

Gosh, your must omniscience work much better than mine does. What's your secret?

[GreenStormCloud]

48. Why not? Be realistic. Does a fart T-shirt mean he is a violent maniac? N/T

[eqfan592]

22. Would you really jump through the hoops...

...and pay out the cash for a permit to do something and then not do it, or only do it rarely? Sorry, but I think you're shooting from the hip on this one and missing completely.

Please cite your source for the odds being strongly in favor of the crook, as the evidence I have seen actually shows a decrease in injury for those who resist with a firearm, not an increase (12% injury rate for those resisting with a gun, 30% for those who do not resist in anyway). This evidence is not conclusive, but it certainly doesn't point to what you are suggesting.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

37. The opinion of the FBI:

...in a personal confrontation you stand the least chance of being harmed if you defend yourself with a firearm.


I can't seem to find the link, perhaps another user could help.

[rrneck]

24. But the consequences are huge. nt

[S_B_Jackson]

29. As one who has a Concealed Hangun License

I carry when I leave the house. It is a habit developed...to selectively utilize it is the height of foolishness. I carry everywhere that it is legally permitted, in those few areas where it is not, I have installed a console gun vault in my vehicle and it is stored there.

If I am travelling out of the state, I make myself aware of the gun laws in the states in which I will be travelling, and I printout those laws - as well as such things as State Attorney Generals' official letters of interpretation of gun statutes so as to CYA in the case of encountering officers who (such as in Philadelphia?) who are ignorant of the laws which they are charged with enforcing - or at least trying to make up as they go along.

I've had two attempted robberies/car jackings that have been deterred by my assailant's suspicions that I might just be armed (something about getting myself into a position of having clear-space and about 20' of distance between us, and then turning side-on to them with the side that my pistol was on furthest from them.....about the time my right hand moved to about 4 o'clock at my waist, they suddenly turned - - - - nervous :shrug

I reported both incidents, the police dutifully took the reports and filed them away....no crime having been committed, the incidents were not furthered as part of the city's reporting for the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics. They were both, however, Defensive Gun Usages (DGUs)

[spin]

35. Many people get a concealed carry permit and initially find that carrying a firearm is a pain.

Initially they decide to carry a full sized revolver or pistol and when all they plan to do is take a quick run to the grocery store, it's just a lot of effort to put the necessary holster on. A Colt .45 auto weighs 2.44 lbs empty and not only is it heavy it is uncomfortable especially if the person who is carrying it is using a regular belt. In a state with hot weather like Florida, a large firearm is also difficult to conceal. Consequently, the weapon often gets left behind.

Many permit holders eventually decide to carry a smaller, more practical weapon. I usually carry a S&W Model 642 Airweight .38 caliber snub nosed revolver in a pocket holster. Note: this is NOT a beginners gun. It has a strong recoil and is not pleasant to shoot. The sight radius limits range and many new shooters have a difficult time with the weapons long and heavy double action only trigger pull.

Smith & Wesson Model 642

It was the best selling firearm offered by Smith & Wesson in 2006. Tradition holds that the original design emerged from the creative mind of Col. Rex Applegate. Among the small revolvers, it has been called a personal favorite by Walt Rausch, Massad Ayoob, Jim Wilson, Stephen Camp, Ken Hackathorn and many others. Jim Supica, author of The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, said that it was possibly the finest pocket revolver ever made. It is the Smith & Wesson Model 642 Airweight Centennial.



***snip***

So, what do people like about the 642?

Its light, compact, easy to carry, snag-free and enjoys an excellent power to weight ratio. Its easy to operate and renowned for reliability. That about sums it up, but I want to expand on these ideas.

Carry-ability The characteristic that first endeared me to the Airweight snubnose is a factor I had to make up a word for, carry-ability. Carry-ability is a matrix of weight, shape, size and power that when stirred together gives me a rating of ease and versatility of carry balanced against the level of security and confidence the gun gives me. The Airweights really hit the sweet spot for me on carry-ability. A Kel-Tec P32 is great on weight, size and shape, but suffers with an underpowered cartridge. The M1911 is a tremendous shooter with a powerful cartridge, and its even fairly flat for surprisingly good concealment, but it is large and heavy. Glocks are lighter, but they are thick and angular and I find them fairly difficult to conceal, especially in warm weather clothing. The Kel-Tec and the 1911 both rate highly in some parts of the matrix, but fall down badly in others. The small size and light weight of the 642 means that you can carry it for many hours in all kinds of clothing, and in a wide variety of carry modes belt holster, ankle holster, belly band, pocket, purse, etc.. It has tremendous versatility for carry while still loading a fairly powerful cartridge. The 642 rates very highly in carry-ability.
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/m642.htm

But there are plenty of small but effective handguns available which are easy to conceal.

My son in law carries a Ruger .380 LCP which is a fine little pistol for pocket carry. It weighs less than 10 oz.



My daughter carries a S&W Model .351PD in .22 magnum which weighs 10.8 oz and has far less recoil than my Model 642.



She also occasionally carries a NAA .22 caliber revolver which she calls her, "Get away from me" gun.



When she had a job working in some dangerous areas she carried a .38 Special S&W Model 64 revolver. This firearm is a retired police weapon and weighs 35.5 oz. It always amazed me that she could effectively conceal this rather large revolver as she is only 5'2" and wights a tad over 100 pounds.



I've known a number of people who always carried or carried on a regular basis. Only a couple carried full sized firearms. One interesting factor I have noticed is that the people I know who do make a habit of carrying are usually very experienced shooters and practice as often as possible.

[S_B_Jackson]

46. It IS a pain, but it helps to remind one of the attendant responsibilities

I've found this to be quite sufficient for the job.



6 rounds, compact size. A little heavy, but you get used to it......kinda

[spin]

52. Six rounds should do the trick in most defensive encounters ...

Of course if you really believe you are going in harms way it might be wise to carry a firearm with more capacity.

I try to avoid any dangerous situation so in my case five rounds in my .38 snub and a speed loader should be enough. If not, I'll just throw the snubbie at them and attempt to run. Since I have a bad hip, I can hope that they will be so busy laughing that they will not be able to hit me.

[S_B_Jackson]

58. If I need more than 6, I've failed to maintain an awareness of my surroundings...

Usually have a spare magazine on me and usually have a couple of extra 8 rounders in the console vault in case I decide to go to the range on a whim during lunch.

Never been much on revolvers, though I do keep and eye out for the offchance that I find a seriously undervalued Colt Python in LNIB condition....hasn't happened yet, I imagine I'll encounter a unicorn before I find one, but it would really round out my small collection nicely.

[nonperson]

27. It is happening in cities and towns all across the country

It's unnecessary and unacceptable but still relatively small scale now. Wait until you guys get your open and concealed carry laws passed. Then things should get really get more intense fast. Proliferation of weapons will increase and so will access by those who shouldn't be anywhere near a gun. Then we're all supposed to wait for a shoot-out on the streeets between the "good guys" and the "bad guys"? LOLOL

Massacre ensues.

Over last weekend three people were murdered on the streets of Newark, NJ alone. Another death last night. One city. Unnecessary and unacceptable and it will only get worse with your crazy open and concealed carry laws.

[S_B_Jackson]

31. my experience with CCW is that

those who have either legally concealed or openly carried firearms, become much less confrontational in their day-to-day affairs. They are very aware that getting into unnecessary conflicts has the ability to get deadly if things go horribly awry, and thus they, generally, modify their conduct to avoid conflict. Want to cut me off on the freeway? I'll simply allow you in - and hope that you don't get someone else killed by your jackassedness. Want that spot closer to the store? Walking an additional 10 yards is probably good for me anyway.....

Feel a sense of entitlement to my car, my money, or my family simply because you think you can use force or threat of force to obtain them? You may find yourself disabused of that notion..........

As for the murders in the streets of Newark, NJ....what would that have to do with legalized carry - other than the fact that with it as an option; one, some, or all might still be alive, or perhaps the perpetrators of that crime might have gotten away with it scotfree.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

32. Perhaps...

...a link Lenzen to the article would help.

It's directed specifically to New Jersey.


I don't want be thoughtless concerning a loss of life.
I hope the injured victims of the shootings and the families who've experienced a loss recover quickly.


Were those murdered also carrying? The news that I read said that even the cop who was killed was unarmed.
How does this related to concealed carry?

[nonperson]

33. "As for the murders in the streets of Newark, NJ...."

"what would that have to do with legalized carry"

Looser gun laws mean more guns are available for everyone, licensed and unlicensed, "good guys" and "bad guys".

[S_B_Jackson]

44. And Newark, NJ already has the more restrictive laws you apparently advocate

How'd that work out for the victims?

Perhaps if they victims had the right - if they voluntarily chose to exercise it - to carry the means of their self defense with them legally; then one, some, or all of them might have been able to defend themselves from a criminal assualt.

Your solution seems to be that, "if we just wish the guns away, everyone will be saved." Sticking our collective heads in the sand and wishing isn't working.

[GreenStormCloud]

49. That has been predicted many times and has failed to materialize.

NJ has rather extreme anti-gun laws already and as you note that didn't stop criminals from carrying. About 40 states are now shall-issue and if the massacre was going to happen it would have already happened.

[nonperson]

59. Criminals can easily obtain guns here because

They're so easily available in other locales. The more guns available the more fall into the hands of criminals. The more guns on the street the more guns available for the black market in states like NJ that have restrictive gun laws. Would it really be better if gun laws were lax here too? Do you really want a bunch of gang bangers and a bunch of armed yahoo vigilantes acting out all the gun play they watch on TV right on the streets of major cities?

You can cite your sources and post their findings but I don't think that sounds like a good idea at all.

[eqfan592]

67. The people that get CCW permits...

....are not "armed yahoo vigilantes" no matter how much you want to try and characterize them as such. All you are doing is underscoring your ignorance of folks that conceal carry, going instead with this portrait of them that was painted by other people who also know nothing of the people who conceal carry. I won't say there aren't a few folks out there that might fit that discription, but to say it is even a significant percentage would be stretching reality. The evidence just doesn't support that conclusion.

Of course, it is because the evidence doesn't support it that people like yourself keep moving the bar. "CCW permits will lead to blood in the streets!!" No such thing occurs. "Ok, well just a few more will lead to blood in the streets!" Still doesn't happen. You seem to be of this impression that after the number of people who legally conceal carry reaches a certain number some sort of blood holocaust is going to occur, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

As for gang bangers with guns, I have a simple solution to that. End the war on drugs. That won't completely eliminate them over night, but after a few years, with their source of income gone, you won't see them nearly as heavily armed, nor as large in size. Especially if you combine this with efforts to improve access to education and reduce poverty levels. Compare this to passing laws that only the law abiding follow, and tell me which is more effective?

[oneshooter]

69. New Jersey, where my 12 yr olds Red Ryder BB gun must be purchased

from a FFL dealer. Where only the elite, rich, or famous can get carry permits. Where effective defence ammunition can not be used for home defence (hollow point ammo).

Yet you want the rest of us to follow your example?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[eqfan592]

71. You can't use hollow points there???

What amazingly ignorant people passed THAT law? Are they trying to insure over-penetration!?!?!?!?!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

72. A local problem.

I have for a long time recognized that addressing any issue with a "GLOBAL" solution is just a mistake. Recently in another thread someone posted about a shooting in Hawaii. I can't image any of the 50 states where the gun laws of neighboring locales would have less effect. However, even Hawaii, which is one of the effective "no issue" states for concealed carry and is an *ISLAND* still has a "gun problem". Hawaii is like a New Jersey surrounded by hundreds of miles of water.

Making feeble excuses that "well our guns laws would work fine if only the other...(town, state, country...) would improve theirs", is just bogus. The solutions for crime start where all government work starts and that is by respecting the essential rights of the people.

I have to start improving myself before I help improve my family, town, state or nation. This is one of the reasons that I am here read and writing. Sharing ideas to find a perspective beyond myself that could improve myself. I believe that expecting the police to protect you when you're not willing to protect yourself is short-sighted.

We each have a right to life which implies a right to self-defense. We are not entitled to use only fists or inferior or improvised weapons (or just a telephone). We are entitled to use fine and effective tools. Using a tool irresponsibly may have terrible consequences but such is the case with many tools.

Rights are not concessions made by government to people. In spite of driving cars and using computers, the nature of people has not changed.

[spin]

53. As of MAY 31, 2011 Florida has 819,135 valid concealed carry permits ...

Please explain why we don't read of at least one incident every day where someone in Florida with a concealed carry permit acted irresponsibly.

Florida has had "shall issue" concealed carry since October 1987 and in that period of time only 168 licenses have been revoked for a crime committed after the license was issued. That in NO WAY means that 168 people were shot or killed by Floridians who had carry permits.
source: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

You are confusing honest licensed people who carry concealed with criminals who illegally carry and criminally misuse firearms. If those who legally carry concealed and openly committed crimes at the rate you mention ("Over last weekend three people were murdered on the streets of Newark, NJ alone. Another death last night. One city. Unnecessary and unacceptable and it will only get worse with your crazy open and concealed carry laws.")) do you really believe that Florida would not have repealed "shall issue" concealed carry by now.

Now I will admit that some criminals may be shot by honest citizens who legally carry concealed and openly and that may increase the statistics of people who are shot and killed by firearms. My question to you is how do you feel about a woman who successfully defends herself against a rapist with her legal weapon or an individual who is innocently walking down a street and is able to successfully defend himself from a mugger who not only wants his money but is planning to severely injure or kill his victim? Be aware that often such incidents are resolved without a shot being fired.

If you totally did away with legal concealed and open carry, how would this affect the predators who enjoy attacking helpless victims?

[Euromutt]

78. Who are you, Harold Camping?

People have been making "blood will run in the streets" prediction for well over 25 years now, ever since Florida adopted "shall issue" legislation, in spite of which the carnage, like the Rapture, has inconsiderately failed to materialize.

And what the fuck does anything about one city in New Jersey prove? It's practically impossible to even get a CCW permit in New Jersey, so if there's murder on the streets of Newark, it's not because anyone has a CCW permit!

[X_Digger]

80. Are you posting from 1992?

Hint.. it's already here. Has been for decades.



And no, blood hasn't been flowing in the streets.

[lawodevolution]

19. Are you joking? That's like saying if we start allowing those Americans to drive cars husbands and

Wives will start running each other over by the millions. DUHHHHHHHH! Welcome to 2011, we have over 6 million people licensed to carry concealed in the US.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. Only a...

...nonperson would say something like that. ;)

Sorry I couldn't resist.
Welcome fellow resident. B-)

[rrneck]

30. Read and learn grasshopper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States

[nonperson]

60. OH! A Wikileaks entry!

The most reliable source in the universe.

Probably written by a member of the gun lobby.

[gejohnston]

61. If it is then they do a better job of making it look authoritative than

rank amateurs at Brady/VPC that read something like the Onion or Sarah Palin would come up with.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

73. Judging from her marksmanship skills

and needing daddy to load and chamber rounds for her, I would not describe her as a gun nut any more than I would describe her as a historian.

Brady Bunch, you know the GOP astroturf group that makes shit up about ten toddlers killed a day, how Vermont is more violent than Detroit. Most of the money they make goes to pay roll.

VPC headed by GOP FFL holder Josh Sugarmann to cash in.

[rrneck]

63. Oh! Such basic information

is all it takes for someone so uninformed.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rrneck]

66. You might do well to read

the instructions posted at the top of the forum so your posts won't get deleted. Or have someone read it to you.

Now run along and find out just how many people in this country own guns, how many people are licenced to carry them, and how many times guns are used in self defense. And while you're at it why don't you figure out how to make the cops jump through a rip in the fabric of time.

[oneshooter]

74. Too late. Gone by by. n/t

[eqfan592]

68. What is really sad about you...

....is that you are incapable of seeing your own bigotry. You have this clearly painted picture in your head of gun owners that simply doesn't fit the reality for most of us, and because of that dissonance you feel the need to lash out in anger. That's very sad....

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

77. How often would you have to feel like...

...your life was on the line, such that you would carry a gun?

[AtheistCrusader]

81. Most of mine have rivets

Couple screws, I guess.

[gejohnston]

83. The movie had a greater impact on the popularity of steam punk

than your dire predictions reflects reality.
Oh yeah, Roy Rogers movies were not documentaries.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

85. which movie? n/t

[gejohnston]

86. Wild Wild West

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

87. 10-4 ;) n/t