ATF: Carson City shooter used Norinco semi-auto converted to full-auto.

[SteveM]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/sheriff-gun-in-deadly-nevada-ihop-shooting-was-illegally-altered/2011/10/05/gIQAeyGWNL_story.html

The Washington Post claims that ATF determined that the gunman in the Carson City shootings last month used a Chinese-made Norinco semi-auto sporting rifle which was modified to shoot full-auto. Washington Post:


“According to ATF, it looked like a pretty good job,” Carson City Undersheriff Steve Albertsen said of the fully-automatic modification. He acknowledged it will be difficult to track the ownership. Background checks are not required for private party sales in Nevada, he said.

“We want to know who sold our suspect the gun, but we may not ever know,” Albertsen said.


The history of the weapon's ownership is still not fully clear. The Post:


"Federal agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined the illegal rifle used in the killings last was sold by a private party in California to an unknown buyer more than five years ago, Furlong said."

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rrneck]

2. There alrrady is. nt

[ChandlerJr]

5. So you're saying that this guy broke the law?

That's even more disturbing. What good are laws if people are just going to ignore them?

[rrneck]

8. If

he has been adjudicated mentally incompetent - yes.

And if he wasn't licenced to own a full auto weapon he broke the law then too.

Shooting people at random is illegal as well.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

3. Probably a Chinese MAK-90 semiauto rifle. They were pretty cheap awhile ago.

Nevertheless, either the conversion or sale of the weapon was certainly illegal.

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Shocking news.

Just shocking.....:wow:

[Hoyt]

6. That dang ATF, always fuckin with people's guns. It would be nice to know what gunner sold it in the

back alley, or maybe sitting at a table at a gun show taking bids.

[ileus]

7. what matters is what gunner modified it...

I bet it wasn't sold at any public place already modified...not even criminal rude gunners are that dumb.

[rl6214]

9. Or maybe you

just sayin, could be anything if we're going to throw wild ideas out there.

[Atypical Liberal]

16. To openly sell an unregistered machine gun at a gun show would be assinine.

It would be nice to know what gunner sold it in the back alley, or maybe sitting at a table at a gun show taking bids.

You can be virtually guaranteed that this firearm was not sold at a gun show.

The only way this could happen is if it was sold to a dealer who did not know that it was a machine gun. But you can be certain that whoever did the modification knew absolutely that this is an absolute no-no and good for a 10-year-trip to club fed.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

21. "Up to" a 10yr federal conviction... it can be alot shorter given the circumstances

[Kennah]

34. Selling a machinegun that one did not know was a machinegun, yeah might not go away for 10 yr.

However, knowingly did it, 10 years, go bye-bye. By virtue of the fact that it was said to be a very high quality conversion, someone who knew what the fuck they were doing, did it, so it wasn't just some random goober.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

36. In technical cases, like violating 922r or NFA, there is a sentancing guideline

Bascically it comes down to accepting responsibility and don't piss off investigators/prosecutors or you'll get the book thrown at you. This is from another site, posted by a guy who was actually caught with a FEW unregistere machineguns and suppressors. The guy was not a violent criminal or dealer. He was just a collector of certain restricted items. Guy got pulled-over by a cop on the way home from the shooting range they found illegal machineguns (an AK and MP5 and silencer, I think). He cooperated, was honest and did his time. Another guy in the car had some other unregistered NFA items as well as drug possesion (the other guy was basically a shithead). He was not so cooperative and ends up facing 2X-4X more time despite having fewer illegal NFA guns.

...The feds use the Sentencing Guideline Chart to produce sentencing ranges based on a point system. The chart takes several factors into account including base offense level (most serious charge / 26 USC 5862(d)), number of offenses (number of guns / two), prior criminal history (first time offender) and acceptance of responsibility (two point reduction). There's also a victim impact / violence assessment but that wasn't a factor in my case. I was initially charged with possession of two machine guns, had a criminal history of zero and accepted responsibility. Had I plead out under my original indictment, I would have had a point score of 15 and been looking at 18-24 months.

******* really fucked me over by having his lawyer float that ridiculous incomplete ATF registry database defense. The prosecutor superceded the indictment with a drug user in possion charge. What that did in my case was cause the Glock 17C to count against me under 18 USC 922(g)(3). That moved me from 1-2 guns to 3-7 guns. That increase in firearms moved me from a score of 15 to a score of 18. That meant I was looking at 27-33 months instead of 18-24 months. The prosecutor made a point of saying that this wasn't happening because of *******, not me. Yeah, that's nice, but I'm still getting fucked over.

The sentencing board recommended 18-24 months, 27-33 months. FYI, they agreed with the prosecution's range of 37-46 months in *******'s case. The prosecutor objected to their recommendation in my case during my sentencing hearing. It was the first time in my attorney's 14 year career that he'd seen the sentencing board recommend a lower sentence that the prosecution's calculation. The judge ruled that the facts of the case did not support the prosecution's 27-33 month calculation.

The 18-24 month vs 27-33 month difference essentially depended on whether I had two prohibited items (two MGs) or three prohibited items (the two MGs plus a Glock 17C) under the law. The irony was that I had at least three prohibited items (two MGs and one suppressor), but neither the original indictment or superceding indictment listed the suppressor. I have no idea why. It may have simply been a mistake. But that omission is what allowed the sentencing board to recommend 18-24 months instead of 27-33 months.

The prosecutor and judge then debated the relevant sentencing issues. There are four criteria: risk to the community, risk of reoffense, deterance to crime and uniformity in sentencing. Both agreed that I was not a risk to the community or risk of reoffense (I appreciated that being stated for the record). Deterance was a minor issue. Uniformity in sentencing was the primary concern. There are a lot of special interest groups that monitor disparities in sentencing for "similar" defendants. Education, employment and likeability aren't factors in sentencing guidelines. Neither is race, but race is often viewed as the deciding factor by special interest groups when they see very low sentences for people like me.

Federal Sentencing Guidelines were mandatory up until 2004. If your recommended range was 18-24 months, you received a sentence between 18 and 24 months. No exceptions. The Feds have a strong bias towards adhering to sentencing guideline ranges. The judge gave me a year and day. That was a very low sentence which corresponded to a score of 13 or lower. It's not mathematically possible to get to 13 with a base level offense of Possession of Unregistered Machine Guns. The judge had given me a huge break.


The prosecutor was clearly angered by the judge's decision. It had nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with guidelines dictating 27-33 months or 18-24 months depending on whose calculations you used. A year and a day was substantially below either guideline range.

Also, the fact that I was sentenced to a "a year and a day" instead of "12 months" was significant. Sentences under one year are not eligible for Good Time Credit or halfway house. Receiving "a year and a day" meant I would be eligble for Good Time Credit (47 days) and halfway house (up to 6 months). So I would be serving 4 1/2 - 10 1/2 months in prison instead of 12 months. I ended up serving less than 8 months in prison and 2 1/2 months in halfway house.

I wasn't fined, but there was a mandatory special assessment of $100. So my full sentence was "a year and a day" with a $100 special assessment.

******* spent 8 1/2 months in federal detention (not prison) prior to being sentenced because he violated pre-trial release conditions (3 failed drug tests, threats against law enforcement). His attorney presented a diminished capacity defense at his sentencing hearing, but the judge struck it down. In the end the judge cited his real military service (3 1/2 years army) as a mitigating factor and gave him time served. The prosecutor was pissed. I can't prove it but I think that's the day *******' stolen valor investigation really began. (Background Info: Shithead has a long history of severely impersonating/lying about military service/awards for significant personal gain. He's currently being wrung through the system on stolen valor charges.)

[gravity556]

10. They'll be able to track it to its original purchaser.

They may luck out and he may have records. Gun owners have asses to protect as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. Have a friend who was the original buyer of a gun used in a crime

Though he had a verifiable alibi, the threats used by the police were incredible. He had the sale records, the guy he had sold it to had since died. Nothing beyond that was available.

[AzNick]

12. That's the problem with private party sales

I have a collection of bills of sales, with copies of driver's license, but if down the road a weapon I registered with ATF when I bought it from a store or a pawn shop is used criminally, I expect a visit of the cops.

I wish it background checks were mandatory.

[PavePusher]

15. "a weapon I registered with ATF"

What registration is this?

[AzNick]

22. When you buy from a store

And they call ATF. You are kidding, right?

[PavePusher]

26. Nope. You don't seem to know what you are talking about. n/t

[AzNick]

27. Brady Law. Link attached

Where have you been hiding?!? Do you even own one single firearm? Have ever had your background checked?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

"Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms or explosives"

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/state-lists.html

[PavePusher]

28. None of that is registration with any government entity.

In the NICS check, the make/model of firearm is not even mentioned, only (IIRC) handgun or long gun with verification of age.

Registration on a Federal level, is, in fact, prohibited by law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

[AzNick]

31. You seriously believe there is no database with that data?

The information is in a database. What you bought, where you bought it and of course your personal information.

I am a database guy. Going two decades into this. I know what the guys in my users groups work on.

I have enough credentials to work with credit card numbers, social security numbers and healthcare information.

I also worked as a security expert for the military.

But then, again, live in lala land and think the data just "stays there" and is not stored anywhere.

[PavePusher]

37. You've moved the goal-posts.... and you still appear to be wrong.

Firstly, we were talking about "registration". The only record of the sale is with the seller. The NICS check does not include make/model/serial # information being transmitted in any way, thus no "registration" is possible. There may be a database of the NICS checks, but, IIRC, even that info is supposed to be destroyed after a certain time.

The records kept by the seller (if a licenced dealer) must be maintained for a prescribed period of time before they may be detroyed. http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-12.pdf See Section 12.7.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

Secondly, how would they put together this "database" out of thin air? They'd have to obtain copies of ALL the 4473's, and someone would notice that.

Note I never claimed there isn't such a database, merely that it would be illegal, and not possible to construct from the method you ascribed. Perhaps there is another mechanism I'm missing, please feel free to demonstrate it.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Actually, it's very simple to track.

The police obtain the weapon, supply the serial number to the manufacturer and demand the name of the sale endpoint. The FFL chain, if any between the manufacturer and the point of sale, is recorded. Once they reach the point of sale, they request the 4473. Bing, they have you, the purchaser. Beyond that, they can only go with testimony from the private party.

[PavePusher]

39. Or... not? n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

42. No, Pave is right. NICS doesn't have that.

But there is another mechanism to isolate the person to whom the FFL transferred the weapon, but it requires legwork. No database. Someone has to go to the sale endpoint with a warrant and get the copy of the form.

[rl6214]

30. That is simply a background check

the weapon is not even listed by name or seriel number. There is no registration of the weapon.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. The form 4473.

The poster you are responding to is correct, it amounts to registration. He bought something at a gun shop, the gun shop has that form on file, or if they went out of business, they handed it over to the ATF.

Bottom line, if he sold that gun, and it is recovered from a crime, it will be traced to the initial purchaser, and he will receive a visit.

[rl6214]

29. That is not a registration

The weapon is not mentioned, only whether it is a long gun or a hand gun. The actual weapon and the seriel number are NOT included so it cannot be registered.

[SteveM]

19. The question of universal NICS testing has been discussed here before...

with considerable support for the practice among 2A advocates. The problems seen with advancing such a scheme:

1) What entity (public, private) would oversee the process;
2) What security assurances would there be to prevent the process from becoming de facto gun registration;* and
3) What political authority would advance and pass enabling legislation; after all, the feds can only regulate Federal Firearms
Licensees, and not overstep into the powers of the individual states.

*Underwriting the entire debate (some years ago in this forum) was apprehension that virulent gun prohibitionists would move to make the list a starting point for gun registration which is adamantly opposed by most 2A advocates.

NOTE: Currently, except for full-auto weapons, there is no ATF registration of weapons. As you can see, your answer already envisions a permanent (de facto) registration stemming from a universal NICS "test." Currently, there is no record of those who utilize the NICS system.

[Katya Mullethov]

13. Was Extra Special Agent Kelven Crenshaw the Technical Advisor ?

Their credibility has taken a hit or two , here and there , now and then .

Or more accurately , every time one of them runs their cockholster .

[ileus]

14. That looks like a SBR'd AR

[oneshooter]

25. It is a Airsoft rifle, and the dufus holding it is a BATFE agent.

Who claimed that with a real mag( won't fit in well) and a real upper( won't fit on lower) what he has is a full auto rifle.

Remember that is a plastic airsoft toy.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Atypical Liberal]

17. This may be only the second recorded use of a machine gun in a crime

Since 1968. The only other one I am aware of was committed by a police officer.

[gejohnston]

18. there have been

two with legal machine guns, both MAC-10s. The cop and some doctor. I would not put this in the same category. I think the LA bank robbers had full autos too.

[AzNick]

23. Yes, the North Hollywood shooters shot full auto ARs

If I recall, their weapons were first confiscated but then returned.

[oneshooter]

24. Believe again. They were Chinese made full auto AK's

The weapons were confiscated, but were not returned, as the shooters were very DEAD.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[AzNick]

32. I stand corrected

I originally thought they had been arrested for possession of modified ARs and petitioned successfully to get them returned.

Sounds more likely that they got AKs on the black market with boxes of ammo.

So, how hard is it to modify an AR for full auto?

JUST KIDDING. No, really...?

[Iktomiwicasa]

33. Here's what they were armed with.

In October 1993, Phillips and Mătăsăreanu were arrested in Glendale, northeast of Los Angeles, California, for speeding.<6> A subsequent search of their vehicle—after Phillips surrendered with a concealed weapon—found two semi-automatic rifles, two handguns, more than 1,600 rounds of 7.62x39 mm rifle ammunition, 1,200 rounds of 9x19 mm Parabellum and .45 ACP handgun ammunition, radio scanners, smoke bombs, improvised explosive devices, body armor vests, and three different California license plates.<7> Initially charged with conspiracy to commit robbery,<8> both served 100 days in jail and were placed on three years' probation.<9> After their release, most of their seized property was returned to them.<10>


Phillips and Mătăsăreanu loaded five rifles and approximately 3,300 rounds of ammunition in box and drum magazines into the trunk of their vehicle: two modified Romanian AIM assault rifles, an AK-47 style rifle, and one modified Norinco Type 56 S-1, a semi automatic HK91 and a modified Bushmaster XM15 E2S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

[rl6214]

35. In order to convert an AR you have to remove metal to fit the trigger group

In doing this you go right thru the side of the receiver making it unusable. They did this on purpose to make conversions next to impossible.

You could get a DIAS (drop in auto sear) but that is in itself a machine gun. I suppose you could make one yourself but that would require a machine shop and if you can do that you can build a whole AR15 that is automatic.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Or, buy an AR made before 1986.

Back then, AR's and M16's rolled off the same assembly lines, but got different (Shortened) bolts, hammers (No tang), trigger carrier (no tail or wahtever the fuck they call it on the M16) and no auto sear. Some even got the M16 selector, and will indeed rotate to the rock and roll position, but they still only fire in semi-auto, due to the shortened bolt, etc.


Anything made after 1986, you are 100% correct.

[krispos42]

44. One full-auto AR-15 and two AK-47-patterns rifles, all illegally converted to full auto

Plus a semi-auto AK-47-pattern rifle and a semi-auto .308Win rifle of German manufacture.

[SteveM]

20. You may have missed the "North Hollywood shoot-out."

Allegedly there were full-autos used in the "Cocaine Cowboy" wars of South Florida during the early 80s.

But definitely fewer than T.V.'s nightly fare of crime drama!

[Remmah2]

38. The ATF has a credibility problem.

Trust them, NOT.