Bills pending to return M1's to US -- write your congressperson

[mistertrickster]

Please write (e-mail) your Congress critter about this:

S. 381 & H. R. 615

To amend the Arms Export Control Act to provide that certain firearms listed as curios or relics may be imported into the United States by a licensed importer without obtaining authorization from the Department of State . . .

These bills sponsored by Sen. John Tester (D-Mont) and Rep. Cynthia Lummis (R-Wyo) seek to overturn the State Dept's refusal to repatriate historic M1 Garand rifles and M1 Carbines furnished to South Korea after WWII.The Obama administration first okayed the reimportation of these historic arms but later the State Dept. blocked it (because it had approved the export many decades earlier, it had the legal standing to do this).

We need to get these historically important rifles back for future generations before they are lost forever.


M1 Garand Rifle .30-06 (introduced in 1936)


M1 Carbine .30 caliber (introduced in 1942)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upMTABpHL4&feature=player_embedded#!

[-..__...]

1. Tester rocks!!!

Wish we had more like him.

:headbang:

[burf]

4. The Kitty would look a lot better

hoisting an M1 carbine!

[-..__...]

7. CarbineKitty?

that could work.

[formercia]

13. That brings up a good point:

Why do the Baggers like the AK-47 clones so much? Why do they like a Commie weapon that is even obsolete in Russia?
Are they expecting to recover Ammo from dead Russians or Chinese? Not likely...lol

[gejohnston]

14. good question

although I don't know anyone that actually has one.

[burf]

15. Its also not very

'Merican of 'em. But seriously, they are inexpensive, a whole lot more reliable than an AR platform, and there is ammo up the wazooo available.

[spin]

18. Exactly. I don't own one but I am considering buying one. (n/t)

[-..__...]

16. Not just the "baggers".

It's one of the greatest battlefield firearms of all time.

I have 3 myself... two of which I put together at home from parts kits.

Pros...

It's an ingenious, elegant, simple design (Ok... so it can be claimed that the Germans came up with it first).

Reliable... easy to disassemble and maintain... parts are readily available.

Spare magazines are plentiful and inexpensive (75 and 100 round drum mags are also available).

Up until a few years ago, ammo was also plentiful and inexpensive (1,000 rounds for under $100.00)

Cons...

not very accurate (crap beyond 200 meters), 7.62x39 is underpowered for a .30 caliber round (since replaced by 5.45x39).

Every gun owner should own at least one. :smoke:

[ObamaFTW2012]

25. Because:

1) they are durable and reliable,
2) they are relatively inexpensive (or at least used to be),
3) they use cheap ammo,
4) they use cheap magazines,
5) they are super-simple to operate


Politics aside, the AK-47 (and it's derivatives) was designed by an ordinary man who sought to provide his countrymen with a better infantry rifle than what was available at the time. It was a revolutionary design that excelled in every way. It's adoption by more countries worldwide than any other assault rifle, and status as the most-produced rifle, are a testament to it's greatness. If nothing else, it is probably the most historically significant rifle ever for it's involvement in nearly every armed conflict since it's introduction 60+ years ago.

I own one. Every gun collector should.

[PavePusher]

27. There is a word you have missed....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pragmatism

[Atypical Liberal]

34. I own one.

I'm not a bagger, but I bought an AK-47 clone because it was less than half the price of an AR clone at the time, and I wanted a rugged, high-capacity military-grade rifle.

[mistertrickster]

6. It's nice that Dems are also backing this pro-gun bill. See, Congress CAN work together. nt

[TheWraith]

2. Edit: you updated the most to make it more accurate.

Just didn't want to see the Obama admin get blamed for blocking the reimportation, when it's standard government rules not to allow reimportation of "military export" weapons, even though these are no more dangerous than anything on the civilian market.

[ileus]

3. I don't know what condition they're in....

I've read that they're in sad and unsafe shape for the US market....but they would give a big boost to the parts market.

[mistertrickster]

5. I hear all kinds of rumors but nobody seems to have any specific info, that I know of.

I wonder why importers aren't going over and handpicking some good ones to ship back.

Does it have to be "all or nothing"?

[SteveM]

8. Okay, I'll bite: Why did the State Dept. quash reimportation in the first place? nt

[mistertrickster]

9. See the youtube vid--Tester (D-Mont) says that the State Dept

worries that the guns will be used for "illicit" purposes.

The bills seem to be gaining momentum.

On edit--more than one person has told me that it may be Springfield Arms (etc.) that is holding up the re-imports. They make new M1s for like 1,200 dollars, and a lot of folks would rather have a historical rifle than a fresh one from the factory, particularly if the old ones are cheaper.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

10. Somehow...

...i just dont see the typical criminal choosing to use a Garand to commit a crime...

Its a little tough to enter a liquor store carrying an 8lb, 4' long chunk of wood and steel and not have someone notice...

[DonP]

11. I'm sure there are lots of gang drive-bys with Garands... somewhere?

I'm sure the state department meant well, but I have a hard time envisioning a gang member with an M1 Garand and a few extra en bloc clips crammed down their pants on a street corner.

[burf]

17. Itsn't it a little hard on the thumbs

if you don't know what your doing on the reload?

[Callisto32]

28. Sure, you can get "Garand thumb"

When you release pressure on the en-bloc clip, the action slams forward, chambering the first round. If you don't get your thumb out of the way, you can get the tip taken off, or the digit slammed between moving parts. Put the outside edge of your palm, near the pinky, on the charging handle if possible. This way, when the bolt closes, the motion of the charging handle helps to push your hand away, if for some reason you weren't faster than the spring.

[SteveM]

12. "Illicit?" A 10 lb. rifle with more wood than a 50s jukebox?

The strange stuff bureaucracies delve into.

The second explanation (about competition with new, more expensive models) sounds more plausible. Buddy of mine got a deer with his, using open sights. Used only one shot. He said his aim was unusually steady.

[mistertrickster]

19. They've got a great feel to them. 8 lbs plus would give you a steady

aiming platform. I've got one, but until I get the proper cleaning guide, I don't want to fire it. The last owner only shot about 50 rounds down the barrel (judging from throat erosion) but the barrel had somewhat more muzzle wear than it should have because of over-using the cleaning rod, heigh ho.

Anyway, if I get a chance to snag another old one at a good price, I will, heh.

[Callisto32]

29. You can always recrown.

I know collectors gasp at such suggestions, but in the end, firearms are tools, and tools that need repairs should get them.

[mistertrickster]

30. I agree. The barrel is from the 60's anyway.

Finding an original barrel matching the receiver from WW2 is nearly impossible.

[oneshooter]

35. And when you find one it is generally shot out, and expensive!

I currently have 5 Garands in my modest collection. The most valuable (to me) is a papered Nat Match from the USMC shooting team. The rarest is a Beretta made from Italy (circa 1952). The one I shoot the most is a 1954 receiver I built into a Nat Match rifle. The oldest is a Feb. 1941 receiver with a 1952 barrel.

I am only one of 8 shooters that show up on a regular basis using a M1 for HighPower. Love the accuracy and consistency at 600yds.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

36. I figured out a way to clean barrels which cannot be reached by breech...

In my Model 94 Winchester, I stick a cleaning rod down the barrel (from muzzle) without patch accessory. When the female-threaded end is revealed in the breech, I screw the rod into the plastic patch accessory with patch (wagging the dog), then withdraw the road. Same for brush cleaning. In this way I do not wobble and wear out the crown area of rifling by cleaning from the muzzle.

I hope the erosion/wear is confined to the chamber area. Sometimes it doesn't affect accuracy.

[mistertrickster]

37. That is an excellent idea! Will use that technique from here on out. nt

[oneshooter]

38. The easiest way to clean the bore of a M1 Garand

Is by using a pull thru. http://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-BoreSnake-Revolver-Cleaner-Caliber/dp/B004DPGM1O

I use one between courses during a shoot to keep the bore match ready.


There were two styles of cleaning equipment issued with the M1 Garand. The early was a screw together rod that was stored behind the trapdoor in the buttplate. The other, late model , was a pull thru that used a small weight attached to a cord, on the other end was a threaded attachment for the cleaning jag. The breech is opened and the weight is dropped into the bore to fall out the muzzle. a patch with solvent or oil is attached with the jag and pulled thru from breech to muzzle.

This system was adapted after discovering that the rifleing at the muzzle was being worn out by the use of the rod without a guide.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[mistertrickster]

39. Ah ha! That's apparently what happened to mine . . . although it's not worn out yet.

It just has more muzzle wear than it should have for only being shot 50 times.

Good info . . . thanks.

[oneshooter]

41. No problem. I have been working on and shooting M1's for the last 10 years. n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

23. Doubt Springfield has that much clout

Springfield in Geneseo, Illinois, is not the REAL Springfield Armoryestablished by George Washington in Massachusetts to manufacture small arms for the Army.

Some investors bought the name, established a factory in Illinois and began building a semi-auto replica of the M14 rifle in 1974. The M1A as it became to be known filled a niche market for civilian riflemen who wished to compete in matches with the military service rifle.

Since the M14, was developed as a select fire weapon the ATF raised obstacles to civilian ownership. When one of the original contractors, TRW, made some semi-auto only versions for target shooters, they were quickly quashed when the ATF ruled, once a machine gun always a machine gun.

The reborn civilian Springfield made some M1 Garands, but to most collectors, they are not 'real' M1's. Only those rifles produced by government contractors for the military are genuine. Those rifles in Korea are historic. They really were on the battlefields of WW2 and Korea.

[mistertrickster]

31. Interesting info . . . thanks for that. nt

[rl6214]

20. I've got a couple of repatriated Greek M1 Garands

They are just awesome pieces of history, a real pleasure to shoot.

[-..__...]

22. I only have 1 "Service Grade", from the CMP.

:(

IIRC... originally, the Greek rifles were either slated to be destroyed, or were actually in the process of being destroyed, when the US Government intervened and told them that they had no right to since they were rightfully still US property under the "lend lease act".

[DonP]

26. 2 Garands and 1 Carbine in my rack

1 Springfield Armory Garand was issued in 1943 to the 1st Marine Fleet Force and was dragged around the Pacific (You can track what units they were originally issued to by serial number block through the CMP) I shoot it in local club events, and at 200 yards with iron sights and it will still put em in the black if I do my part.

But every time I pick it up I look at the dents, scratches and gouges in that old stock and wonder what rocky beach some jarhead in my Uncle's own unit dragged it across at Entiewok, Iwo Jima or Guadalcanal? I wouldn't restock it or refinish it for all the tea in China. It's my own slice of real history.

The other one was issued to the "Big Red One" and did its time in Europe. After the war it was "loaned" to the Danish government who rebarreled them with VAR accuracy barrels.

My Carbine is one of the recent Italian returns (a rare Rockola - yeah the jukebox people) and I'm still trying to learn more about it.

[mistertrickster]

32. REALLY? I didn't know you could track them by serial number.

That's great. I got the year of mine of course (1941) but now I can see where it's been.

[DonP]

48. You'll probably have to do some digging on the CMP site

They recently reorganized the CMP site so I can't tell you exactly where to find the tracking connection. But I'm sure it's still there.

They can tell you who specific blocks of serial numbers were issued to usually down to the major unit, like 1st Infantry etc. There are a few exceptions, where a run of numbers wasn't shipped to a specific unit or they don't have the data for that block of numbers.

But finding out where the gun in your hands went during WWII is really a moving experience and makes that well handled stock mean something special.

Kind of like finding the hand written tag on my K31 Swiss (under the butt plate on many of them) and realizing it has the name, address and serial number of the last Swiss soldier/citizen to have the rifle issued to him during WWII.

[mistertrickster]

33. I bought mine from a Korean vet and it had already been restocked and rebarrelled.

But the stock still looks like it was used as a baseball bat to shag rocks . . .

[Dragonbreathp9d]

21. Oo oo! I'll adopt one or two!

I actually wrote a paper on what really won WWII- the M1 Garand. My favorite firearm.

[BiggJawn]

24. Wrote my congresscritter...

After all the Liberal rants I send him, this ought to catch him off-balance... :D

[burf]

40. There's a program on the Outdoor Channel right now

on John Garand.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

42. I'd rather buy an AR chambered in .308

Easier to reload, greater capacity, much easier to accurize, greater choice in accessories and optics.

[mistertrickster]

43. Sure . . . it's a good rifle, probably more advanced. But it didn't whip the Nazis, did it (heh)

The thing about the old M1 is that it's steel and wood--old school. No black plastic.

A lot of people like me really appreciate the historical aspects of the weapon that revolutionized military rifles at the time. The semi-auto was a vast improvement over the bolt-action Mauser and Japanese Arisaka . . . and if you want proof, just play a few battle scenarios of "Call of Duty" WWII version with a bolt-action and then a semi-auto.

Three enemies running at you from close range with a bolt-action, and you're a dead man. With a semi-auto, you just cut them down.

The Garand was decisive in stopping Japanese banzai charges in the Pacific--charges that were often successful against troops with bolt-action rifles.

[one-eyed fat man]

44. Don't sell the bolt action short

Most particularly, the Lee-Enfield. While an old design, the Lee-Enfield served the Commonwealth nations, not only in the Empire, the Boer Wars, and World War 1, but throughout World War 2 and Korea. In the last two, right alongside US troops armed with the M1. There was no great clamor from British soldiers over being out gunned by the Yanks.

"Mad minute" was a pre-World War I term used by British riflemen during training to describe scoring 15 hits onto a 12" round target at 300 yd within one minute using a bolt-action rifle (usually a Lee-Enfield or Lee-Metford rifle). It was not uncommon during the First World War for riflemen to greatly exceed this score. Many riflemen could average 25 shots, while the record, set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall was 38 hits. It was rumored that a company of assaulting German soldiers reported that they had faced machine gun fire, while in fact it was a rifle squad of ten men firing at this rate. Annually, a group of British owners meet for a mad minute competition.

The Lee-Enfield having been criticized by many as less accurate than the Springfield M1903 or the Mauser 98, was none the less a superior battle rifle. The .303 cartridge, in the Mark VII ball developed in 1907, used a long spitzer bullet which yawed violently upon impact. Wounds so unlike the clean holes made by the 8mm Mauser, the Germans lodged a complaint under the Hague Conventions during the First World War.

There are quite a number of folks who couldn't put 15 rounds into a 12 inch target at 300 yards if they had all day! For the mathematically challenged, 12 inches at 300 yards is 4 minutes of angle. By way of comparison, the standard 200 yard target, for Official NRA High Power Rifle matches measures 42" x 42", 13" black center or a 6.5 MOA bull. Fired with a service rifle, Rapid Fire is 10 rounds within a minute.

[oneshooter]

45. A few mad minute examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m1yN-3n0FU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh-pgRhi_Lo

Not something they teach much anymore, aimed rapid fire.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[one-eyed fat man]

46. Spray and pray

is the technique most employed by amateurs. It works for conscript armies relying on mass, the AK was born of that Soviet philosophy. An AK couldn't make a 6 minute shot group if you clamped it in a vise and fired it remotely. Equipment changes, techniques change, but soldiers do not. This observation, made over 2,500 years ago, still holds true!

"Of every 100 men, 10 shouldn't even be there, 80 are nothing but targets, nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them...

They make the battle. Ah, but the One, One of them is a Warrior... and He will bring the others back."

— Heraclitus, Greek philosopher

Every unit is made up of killers, fillers and fodder. Five per cent of your force will account for 40% of the enemy's losses. Of the remaining 95%, about 1 in 5 stands a 50-50 chance of surviving their first decisive combat.

[mistertrickster]

47. I have a number of bolt-action rifles too, and they're great.

I've got a Mosin-Nagant long rifle(heh, who doesn't?), the M44 carbine, the Swiss K31, a Nazi-marked Mauser and a couple of 20 gauge bolt-action Mossburg shotguns.

They're excellent weapons, but rate of fire for a semi-auto is definitely better.

My brother has a Lee-Enfield and a Navy Arms "jungle carbine" rebuild. I'd like to pick one up one of these days.

Know any good wholesalers-importers? I have a C & R license.