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Bowline Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 08:48 PM
Original message
Democrats Turn to 'Second Amendment Rights' for Political Gain
While it remains to be seen whether a termination of the 1994 assault-weapons ban in September might yet infuse gun control into the 2004 election season, Democrats have moved so far away from the issue that they almost sound like Republicans.

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) spoke on the need for the ban's extension during the Democratic National Convention, but her call for Congressional action on gun control has become a rarity within a party that once championed the issue. While the Democratic party platform does call for reauthorization of the ban, it also states that the party "will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms." And Democrat after Democrat, including Presidential nominee John Kerry, has used language about "Second Amendment rights" during their campaigns this season.

Robert J. Spitzer, a political-science professor at the State University of New York at Cortland and author of the book, "The Politics of Gun Control," has noticed the trend and attributes it to lingering perceptions of the 2000 election season. "Some Democrats felt that they were hurt by the gun issue then," Spitzer says. "I was never convinced of that, but some Democrats felt they were being seen as too strongly in favor of gun control and therefore it would make sense for them to emphasize sportsmen's rights and Second Amendment rights."

Complete article.


Looks like somebody got smart over at campaign headquarters and decided to take this issue back from the right and quit allowing them to beat us over the head with it.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. This nation needs to rethink its entire gun control policy.
Edited on Wed Aug-04-04 08:50 PM by Massacure
edit: spelling.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe some of the leadership has been reading J/PS for advice
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Let's hope they don't read my posts on how to ban guns. (nt)
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Nah, politicians are all about the short term, they'd want 'em now
The gun-grabbing ones are too impatient to enact such an ambitious program anyway.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. I haven't heard John utter the word "pantload".......n/t
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Bowline Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. LOL! It's coming, I'm sure....really it is....honest....wait...wait..
...here it comes...OH!, so close.
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. "...they almost sound like Republicans" Yeah, I've noticed.
Interesting article. I suggest the "all guns are good" crowd read more than just the snip in the original post before they start vigorously polishing their tools.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I suppose you'd rather have them use it as a wedge issue against us?
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Bowline Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Hehe, hehe...you said "tool"!
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thomas82 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. LOL!!
Thats the funniest thing I have seen all week!!
Tom
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
39. That's the funniest thing I've seen this week too
Edited on Fri Aug-06-04 09:18 AM by slackmaster
Heh-heh-heh-heh!

:toast:

Happy Friday everyone!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. yuppers
Like this:

While the Democratic Party platform doesn't describe the Second Amendment as an impediment to reasonable gun laws, the way that many Democratic politicians have adopted its language of "Second Amendment rights" might prove costly, some observers believe. "At least for now, the courts have said that the Second Amendment is not an obstacle to gun legislation," says Jon Vernick, co-director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. "But to the extent that politicians are using the language of 'gun rights,' that may make it more difficult to enact sensible gun legislation in the future."

Spitzer, on the other hand, believes that espousing a centrist position on guns might hold limited political benefit for some Democratic candidates. He thinks that Kerry's use of "Second Amendment rights" language might help him in some of the rural swing states "because he's trying to send signals that he's not hostile to responsible gun use," and because it provides little political risk.

But even if there are short-term benefits for Democrats espousing Second Amendment gun rights, what might be the longer-term legislative effects of the centrist approach to gun policies? The NRA, which scoffs at AGS, is notoriously uncompromising. And many gun-violence-prevention activists believe that the best way to deal with the NRA is to be equally uncompromising. In 2001, competing bills that set out to close the "gun-show loophole" were introduced in Congress, with AGS supporting a bill by Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.). The McCain-Lieberman bill came under heavy fire from gun-violence-prevention activists as a weak piece of legislation. John Johnson, executive director of Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence, told Join Together Online at the time, "I think that rather than weaken our proposals to get them through Congress, we need to strengthen the Congress." Joe Sudbay, former legislative director at the Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C., said at the time, "If we're going to be in a debate with the NRA and they're not compromising, we're just compromising with ourselves. It's inconsistent with every other progressive issue that exists. And it's detrimental to gun control." In the end, Congress failed to act on any bill to close the loophole.

Now, in voicing its support of a constitutional right to own guns, the Democratic Party is seeking more compromise. They're seeking the political expediency of avoiding the whole story about Constitutional gun rights. "The Democrats just don't feel they can win by telling the truth" about the federal courts' interpretation of the Second Amendment, says Mark Karlin, chairman of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence. "So they just say, 'I support Second Amendment rights.'"

Anybody who's been around the reproductive rights debate much recognizes the fundamental importance of the bit I underlined there.

THEY DON'T WANT COMPROMISE. They want their own way, and that's all they want, and they are *not* going to stop until they get it.

And every centimetre that "we" grant them, in the hope they'll be mollified and act like normal decent people in a pluralist democracy and accept a solution that reasonably reconciles competing demands and interests and values, is just another centimetre lost for no purpose, and another whack of harm done to vulnerable people who have done nothing to deserve it and whom "we" have failed to protect. Because while they speak the soothing language of compromise and respect, they are just planning their next volley.

It's a slippery slope indeed, and those folks on the other side aren't standing on the other side of the hill holding the rope that maintains the balance and keeps us both from coming out on top or landing at the bottom. They're just playing out the line and creeping slowly up their side, as "we" happily take a few more steps down the slope.

Every inch of ground willingly handed over is the base from which they mount their next attack.

Being "liberal" really does not mean being soft in the head, eh?

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. "Being "liberal" really does not mean being soft in the head"
Being pro-gun, though, seems to....

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. I support all of the Bill of Rights
That includes the Second Amendment.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. So you're a staunch opponent of the billeting of soldiers? /nt
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. nary a one will be billeted here...nt
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 08:23 PM by MrSandman
BTW: I oppose the federalization of CCW on Constitutional arguements
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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. I never understood why gun control was so important to us.
It's not a liberal issue. Gun control doesn't make us any freer. Gun control won't help a single poor person go to school, or get a job. Gun Control provides no one with better healthcare. Gen Control won't help homeless people. Gun Control does nothing to end hatred. Gun Control won't result in a more just world. I suppose it might lower crime, but that's just not an ideologically motivating issue. Plus, it makes us look like the Party of "less rights", which is a place I don't like to be. The pubs ought to be the ones taking freedom from people, that's what they do, not us.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. There is no proof that gun control prevents violence
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Conversely....
...there is no proof that unfettered access to guns keeps us safe.

I'd prefer a society with fewer guns, and those guns in the hands of people who will use them responsibly.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. In the absence of evidence either way
Tie goes to liberty.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. There's no "absence of evidence."
There's plenty of evidence. What there isn't is proof. But we don't wait for proof to support progressive laws in this party. Demands for proof are the staple of Republicans trying to block progressive reforms, a la global warming.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Limiting freedom without proof= Progressive
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 08:21 PM by MrSandman
?????????????????????????
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. It's a standard Republican trick.
Greenhouse gases cause global warming? Prove it! Tobacco causes cancer? Prove it! Drilling in the ANWR will destroy habitat? Prove it! George Bush knew that there were no WMD? Prove it! Meanwhile, keep your hands off our "freedom" to pollute and poison people and lie about Iraq!
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. The straw is blowing...
Not too much impetus to shut down the tobacco industry on this oard if my search was representative. Yet it has been proven to kill over 400k of USAmericans annually.

Defending Repub positions on Iraq or greenhouse gases? Now, tell me that mountaintop removal creates jobs and improves the topograhy of the state.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. What are you talking about?
I gave you well-known examples of the Republican propensity to demand scientific proof as a way of opposing progressive reforms. Who is defending Repub positions? Not me.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. But failed to demonstrate that gun control is progressive...
Reforms?
ANWR and Iraq are misguided changes to the stus quo, not reforms.

What is the progressive tobacco reform opposed? I would like to sign on because of the 400k annual deaths.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Who pushes gun control? Progressives or conservatives?
I'm sorry that gun control isn't progressive in your personal opinion. But it is a progressive issue, championed by progressives and opposed by conservatives.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Gun control is a progressive issue...
And how strict of gun control must I support to be progressive?

(I will try not to abuse question marks since they so offend some)
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. You're trying to drag the argument onto a new ground.
The point is that demanding definitive proof is an old Republican trick for blocking progressive reforms. That's a well-known fact.

How progressive you yourself have to be on any given issue is up to you, of course. But it has no bearing on the subject we were discussing, which is Republican tactics. Dragging the argument to a new ground is another one of those, by the way.

And one question mark per sentence is sufficient, thank you.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I didn't drag it(the argument) through ANWR and Alaska.
Edited on Fri Aug-06-04 06:32 PM by MrSandman
Nor did I state that one position was Conservative. In your humble opinion, how strict of gun control must I accept to be considered Progressive?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Okay, let's go back to where this subthread started.
I said that demanding scientific proof was a standard Republican trick for blocking progressive reforms. You questioned the point and invoked "freedoms." I gave you examples of well-known cases in which Republicans have coupled demands for proof with cant about "freedoms" to block progressive reforms. So explain to me how giving examples to support my assertion is dragging the argument onto new ground. And you can save your loaded question, I'm not going to answer it.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I'll go back to where it started...
There was no proof of decreased violence in the face of increased gun control. You asserted that progressive reforms are worth enacting prior to proof. I agree to this. I disagree with your assertion that gun control is progressive.

My question was not loaded by me, but asking for clarification of an assertion not mine.

So I will save loaded questions, but will also refrain from identifying a policy/position as progressive without a willingness to define the scope.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. "Define the scope"? What does that mean?
It's pushed by progressives and opposed by conservatives. It's pushed by Democrats and opposed by Republicans. RKBA groups, RKBA politicians, and RKBA activitsts are overwhelmingly conservative and Republican. Pro-control groups, politicians, and activists are overwhelmingly progressive and Democratic. I'm not making this stuff up. It's fact. It does not depend in any way on any arbitrary "definition" from me.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. The "scope" or the parameters of accepted...
2A rights advocacy within a Progessive framework. What is the non-arbitrary definition?


About 1/3 of population believes that gun laws should stay the same (over 1/4 of Dems) and over 3/5 oppose banning handguns, the most commonly used firearm in crimes.*

http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm


*Of course, there are any number of accepted positions that were once held by the Progressive minority.


The number of progressive states must be getting smaller, what with all the CCW states(38 last I looked). Do the Repubs control all of these states?

Since there is no proof that further gun controls will decrease violence, I believe that to allow individuals the freedom of choice is the more Progressive position.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. "Demands for proof are the staple of Republicans"
Are you saying you would rather stubbornly continue a failed experiment despite the fact that it costs us elections and true progressive reform?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Gee, when you put it that way, I don't know.
Maybe if you could be just a little more grotesquely biased in the way you state it, it might help me make up my mind . . .

And of course, all your "facts" are not facts but your personal opinions.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. It's not my opinion
It's the Big Dog's.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The Big Dog never said that the AWB
costs us elections and progressive reforms. Any other facts you'd like to make up?
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. It's been posted multiple times
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 10:23 PM by Columbia
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/27/clinton.crime/transcript.html

We always talk about the NRA. The NRA has been powerful, not only because they have a lot of money, but because they can influence people who vote. And in that culture people believe everybody should be personally responsible for their actions. "If you just punish people who do wrong more harshly, fewer people will do wrong." And, "Everybody tells me I've got a constitutional right to keep and bear arms so don't fool with me." And, "Every reasonable restriction is just a camel's nose in the tent."

"And pretty soon they'll come after my shotgun and I'll miss the next duck-hunting season."

And we smile about that, but there are some people who would be on this platform today who lost their seats in 1994 because they voted for the Brady Bill and the voted for the assault weapons ban and they did it in areas where people could be frightened.


Care to make an apology now?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Read the actual speech.
And I know I'm asking a lot, but really read it. Read what it says. Read what Clinton is actually trying to communicate, instead of combing it for some quote you can take out of context to prove some imaginary point.

Like I said, I'm asking a lot. I know.

But if you actually read the speech, what Clinton is saying is that the NRA, not the AWB or votes for gun control, cost those people their seats. And he's saying that it's because of a fundamental misunderstanding that hunters and gun owners have about gun controls. He says all this in a speech introducing a bill which contained many gun control provisions. So it is NOT Bill Clinton's opinion that gun controls have cost Democrats elections and progressive reforms.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I have read it
Regardless of how we feel about the NRA (I'm not a big fan of their leadership and their propensity to support GOP - although they will support Dem 2A supporters), they are here to stay and a sizable chunk of gun-owners are single issue voters. It is my belief that most of these folks are ordinary, blue-collar workers, many of them probably union members, who would otherwise vote Democratic if it wasn't for our gun-control platform. Thankfully, John Kerry has been staying away from this issue, which bodes well for him, but he's still going to take a lot of heat for his AWB vote especially considering a portion banned common hunting ammunition. There is way too much at stake especially this year to sacrifice an election on something that doesn't even work and limits the freedom of regular, everyday Americans.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Referring specifically to the AWB,
Bill Clinton is beating the bushes in support of it. Obviously he doesn't think it's going to hurt Democrats.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Well, he isn't running is he?
He's trying to make an issue of it as a Bush flip-flop. I'm sure Kerry's advisors are wisely telling him not to get close to it. His vote for it earlier in the year was before he clinched the nomination so it was probably more of a publicity thing than anything else. For the general election, he should stay away. Well, at least if he wants to win...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Bill Clinton stumping for the AWB isn' t really about the AWB
Edited on Fri Aug-06-04 09:19 AM by slackmaster
It's about Bill Clinton. I don't believe Bill Clinton personally cares one way or another about the AWB. If he thinks stumping for it gets him attention and has the additional benefit of helping his Democratic friends, that's what he's going to do.

Remember, he has a book to sell. A good one that's already selling well, but every extra million in his pocket counts.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. Also, remember that the NRA always gives its money to Republicans
no matter what Democrats do or don't do about the AWB.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Usually, but not always
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. As far as I can see, the data you cite are not specific to the NRA.
And the ratio is about ten-to-one in favor of Republicans anyway. And American party politics is a zero-sum game - every dollar given to one party hurts the other party. So even the data you provide demonstrates that gun-lobby money has been solidly against us from 1990 to present, and 1990 is as far back as the figures go.

Which brings me back to my point. No matter what Democrats do or don't do about gun control, the NRA (and the rest of the gun lobby)supports Republicans against Democrats every time.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Doesn't that remind you of
the wingnuts who argued that because Enron gave a few dimes ot Democrats it was as much a Democratic scandal as a Republican?

As James Carville once said, "When have you ever gone to a football game that ended up 86 to 14 and said 'Wow, that was close.'"
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. So you think the NRA should donate money
to people who vote against their issue?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Hey, ain't you the guy
who always says that Republicans are the real gun-grabbers?

Or wait, I guess that doesn't help your argument at this particular moment. I'll have to wait until the next time it does to hear you say it again.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Yes I am
and they are. I'm also the one that says the NRA needs gun control or at least the threat of gun control to survive.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Depending, again, on the rhetorical needs of the moment.
Edited on Fri Aug-06-04 05:41 PM by library_max
Your post 50 (the one I'm replying to) directly contradicts the premise of your post 44 (the next one up the thread).

So, what do you think of ethical discourse? I want an outsider's opinion.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I doubt it.
You'd have to read the current federal gun laws to understand my posts. By the way, I'm still waiting for numbers showing how most of the drugs smuggled into the US come in briefcases and people's guts.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Oh, and I forgot the hilariously irrelevant taunts
Edited on Fri Aug-06-04 05:47 PM by library_max
from different threads and subthreads on entirely different topics. Quite a debating style you've got going there.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Well I thought I should remind you
since you apparently forgot about that particular subthread.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. The NRA (not that I really care about them) is a true single-issue lobby
Edited on Fri Aug-06-04 05:09 PM by slackmaster
A solidly pro-RKBA Democrat will get their endorsement over a waffling or anti-RKBA Republican every time.

But it's also undeniable that if both candidates seem equal on RKBA issues the NRA will always give their nod to the GOP. That's unfortunate but it is their right.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. And the issue is fringe right wing craziness
Edited on Fri Aug-06-04 05:29 PM by MrBenchley
masquerading as "gun rights"...as Heston's speech to the scummy Free Congress Foundation shows.

"Controversy, however, has followed Heston. In December 1997, Heston delivered a speech before the Free Congress Foundation in which he made inflammatory remarks regarding women, gays and lesbians, and African Americans; while at the same time trivializing the Holocaust. "

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/heston.html
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Nobody's arguing that it isn't their right.
The question was, has the gun control issue cost Democrats elections? Columbia quoted a Clinton statement that the NRA had cost Democrats elections and said, essentially, same diff. But I submit that it's not the same diff, since the NRA always gives the bulk of its money to Republicans no matter what Democrats do or don't do about gun controls. Do you have any facts to the contrary?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. Ahem....
"As Schiff and others point out, "Second Amendment rights" is a problematic term because it implies that Americans possess an absolute constitutional right to own and use firearms. This has been the position of the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights organizations for years.
However, even though people may believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to own guns, federal courts have almost unanimously held that the amendment does not ensure any such individual right. Instead, the courts have consistently reaffirmed an interpretation that the amendment's purpose was to protect the power of states to create militias armed with privately owned guns.
It's only been in the last 10 to 15 years that an effort to interpret the amendment differently -- as a guarantor of an absolute individual right to guns -- has gathered significant momentum, fueled in large part by the gun lobby. The NRA, for instance, has given $1 million to the George Mason University School of Law to create and endow a faculty position called the Patrick Henry Professorship of Constitutional Law and the Second Amendment. In addition, the National Rifle Association has recently launched a radio program espousing pro-gun commentary including their interpretation of the Second Amendment."

and

Home > Gun Violence > News > Features & Commentary 
Features & Commentary
Democrats Turn to 'Second Amendment Rights' for Political Gain
8/4/2004
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Feature Commentary
by Dick Dahl
While it remains to be seen whether a termination of the 1994 assault-weapons ban in September might yet infuse gun control into the 2004 election season, Democrats have moved so far away from the issue that they almost sound like Republicans.
Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) spoke on the need for the ban's extension during the Democratic National Convention, but her call for Congressional action on gun control has become a rarity within a party that once championed the issue. While the Democratic party platform does call for reauthorization of the ban, it also states that the party "will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms." And Democrat after Democrat, including Presidential nominee John Kerry, has used language about "Second Amendment rights" during their campaigns this season.
Robert J. Spitzer, a political-science professor at the State University of New York at Cortland and author of the book, "The Politics of Gun Control," has noticed the trend and attributes it to lingering perceptions of the 2000 election season. "Some Democrats felt that they were hurt by the gun issue then," Spitzer says. "I was never convinced of that, but some Democrats felt they were being seen as too strongly in favor of gun control and therefore it would make sense for them to emphasize sportsmen's rights and Second Amendment rights."
Sue Ann L. Schiff, executive director of the San Francisco-based Legal Community Against Violence (LCAV), believes that the increasing Second Amendment references by Democrats also reflect something broader: seepage of language that has been used by the gun lobby for many years into more general discourse.
As Schiff and others point out, "Second Amendment rights" is a problematic term because it implies that Americans possess an absolute constitutional right to own and use firearms. This has been the position of the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights organizations for years.
However, even though people may believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to own guns, federal courts have almost unanimously held that the amendment does not ensure any such individual right. Instead, the courts have consistently reaffirmed an interpretation that the amendment's purpose was to protect the power of states to create militias armed with privately owned guns.
It's only been in the last 10 to 15 years that an effort to interpret the amendment differently -- as a guarantor of an absolute individual right to guns -- has gathered significant momentum, fueled in large part by the gun lobby. The NRA, for instance, has given $1 million to the George Mason University School of Law to create and endow a faculty position called the Patrick Henry Professorship of Constitutional Law and the Second Amendment. In addition, the National Rifle Association has recently launched a radio program espousing pro-gun commentary including their interpretation of the Second Amendment.
Joining this movement has been a centrist group, Americans for Gun Safety. Created in 2000, AGS set out to occupy a middle ground in the highly polarized war zone between gun-rights organizations and gun-violence-prevention groups. AGS immediately adopted a position that gun owners are, in fact, protected by the Constitution, although it differed from the gun-rights groups in saying that the Second Amendment doesn't stand in the way of sensible gun laws.
So when the Democratic Party platform was officially adopted at the Democratic National Convention in Boston on July 27, AGS saluted the action as a historic event signifying the willingness of the party to compromise on the gun issue.
While the Democratic Party platform doesn't describe the Second Amendment as an impediment to reasonable gun laws, the way that many Democratic politicians have adopted its language of "Second Amendment rights" might prove costly, some observers believe. "At least for now, the courts have said that the Second Amendment is not an obstacle to gun legislation," says Jon Vernick, co-director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. "But to the extent that politicians are using the language of 'gun rights,' that may make it more difficult to enact sensible gun legislation in the future."
Spitzer, on the other hand, believes that espousing a centrist position on guns might hold limited political benefit for some Democratic candidates. He thinks that Kerry's use of "Second Amendment rights" language might help him in some of the rural swing states "because he's trying to send signals that he's not hostile to responsible gun use," and because it provides little political risk.
But even if there are short-term benefits for Democrats espousing Second Amendment gun rights, what might be the longer-term legislative effects of the centrist approach to gun policies? The NRA, which scoffs at AGS, is notoriously uncompromising. And many gun-violence-prevention activists believe that the best way to deal with the NRA is to be equally uncompromising. In 2001, competing bills that set out to close the "gun-show loophole" were introduced in Congress, with AGS supporting a bill by Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.). The McCain-Lieberman bill came under heavy fire from gun-violence-prevention activists as a weak piece of legislation. John Johnson, executive director of Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence, told Join Together Online at the time, "I think that rather than weaken our proposals to get them through Congress, we need to strengthen the Congress." Joe Sudbay, former legislative director at the Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C., said at the time, "If we're going to be in a debate with the NRA and they're not compromising, we're just compromising with ourselves. It's inconsistent with every other progressive issue that exists. And it's detrimental to gun control." In the end, Congress failed to act on any bill to close the loophole.
Now, in voicing its support of a constitutional right to own guns, the Democratic Party is seeking more compromise. They're seeking the political expediency of avoiding the whole story about Constitutional gun rights. "The Democrats just don't feel they can win by telling the truth" about the federal courts' interpretation of the Second Amendment, says Mark Karlin, chairman of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence. "So they just say, 'I support Second Amendment rights.'"
In 2000, a group of 50 prominent academics signed an open letter to Charlton Heston, then president of the NRA, to correct his misstatements about the Second Amendment. "The National Rifle Association's repeated suggestions that the Second Amendment somehow stands in the way of effective and reasonable regulation of guns and gun ownership is a distortion of legal precedent and a disservice to all Americans," they wrote. As former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger said in 1991, the idea that the Constitution protects private gun owners is simply erroneous. He chastised the NRA for pushing that interpretation, saying, "(The Second Amendment) has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word 'fraud,' on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime."



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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Hmmmmm, maybe.

"Looks like somebody got smart over at campaign headquarters and decided to take this issue back from the right and quit allowing them to beat us over the head with it".

Look at the source.

http://www.jointogether.org/home

I'm not going to get into the facts or fallacy of the "opinion" piece; those issues are more than enough to warrant their own thread and have been discussed many times before.

What is telling is that a well known anti-gun organization is upset with the Democrats unexpected change, platform and toned down response to the RKBA issue.

I mean, c'mon...
Democrats Turn to 'Second Amendment Rights' for Political Gain . Sounds to me like they feel like they've been betrayed or stabbed in the back.

In previous times the gun-grabbers had counted on the Democratic party to back-up and support their legislation. Now times have changed and they're not the least bit happy about it.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Too funny for words....
Edited on Thu Aug-05-04 10:08 PM by MrBenchley
"a well known anti-gun organization is upset with the Democrats"
Gee, and how are the pro-gun groups treating the Democratic ticket, I wonder? Oh that's right--they're lying their asses off and foaming with rage.....

"the Democratic party to back-up and support their legislation"
You mean like banning assault weapons and closing the gun show loophole?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Oooooh, "Political Gain." That's harsh.
I bet I wouldn't read anything worse than that on the NRA site or the GOA site or any of the other right-wing gun sites.

Yup, you guys sure have "proved" that it's the pro-control groups that are ragging on Kerry. :eyes:
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-04 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Much to my "surprise"
This morning my paper ran an op-ed by somebody "assuring" us that pro-choice people were disgusted and outraged by the Democratic convention and the ticket because of their lack of commitment to reproductive choice....but was somehow mysteriously unable to provide us with any on the record quotes of anybody who was.

Sounded just like the "gun control advocates are outraged" bullshit we've ben deluged with here...

Wonder what the "pro life" websites are saying...
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