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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:05 PM
Original message
Gun control - Colonial American style...
I'm posting this, because I've noticed that some of the "pro RKBA" advocates (not necessarily in THIS website) seem to be trying to distort American history. They seem to want us to believe that Colonial America was some sort of "gun owners utopia" where all guns are completely legal, readily available, and totally unregulated. "It was that widespread availability of guns, that led to our very freedom", they will tell us.

While reading a book about colonial American history, I found a story that seemed to state otherwise. Much of Colonial American military history started with the regiments of New Hampshire. They were considered some of the best equipped, trained, and staffed militias in the revolution. This excerpt is from "History of the Town of Wolfeborough New Hampshire", by Benjamin Franklin Parker, pg 146-47:

"In 1773 the sum of 5-10-8 (pounds, shilling, pence) was raised to purchase ammunition, and deposited with Henry Rust. There is no record to show by what method the money was obtained. It was evidently intended to meet any emergency that might arise, such as the troublesome times seemed to portend. At a town-meeting called by the selectmen through the agency of Constable Aaron Frost with a notice of only one day, the inhabitants met, June 6, 1775, and voted that the money be put in the posession of Moses Ham (I did NOT make that name up!), and that he be appointed an agent to purchase powder and lead or bullets. He was to use proper expedition in his journey to Portsmouth (NH), and receive for his services and the use of his horse, while absent, at the rate of four shillings per day. Here follows a copy of his account:--

Twenty two and 5/16 pounds powder - 2-15-8 (pounds, shilling, pence)
Seventy pounds of lead - 1-8-0
Four days service - 1-4-0
Truckage - 0-1-6
Powder purchased - 0-1-6.

The powder was taken to Wolfeborough on horseback, and the lead converted into bullets by Ham. He remained the custodian of the ammunition until Nov. 15, 1777, when it went into the posession of the proper authorities for using it. The town stock at the time of delivery was about twenty-five pounds of powder and sixty-five pounds of bullets.
August 7, 1775, Moses Ham was elected a delegate to the colonial convention, and at the same town-meeting Moses Wingate, Moses Ham, Robert Calder, John Sinkler, and James Conner were chosen a town committee of safety. The exigencies of the times required the formation of such boards of officers. The colony of New Hampshire had its committee of safety, as did the other colonies, so also did a majority of the towns. These committees were generally composed of the more active and patriotic men, who by a unity of counsel and effort secured the confidence of the people,and were able to successfully assume the responsibilities of the government at the period of its transformation."

From the above story, it seems that Mr. Ham held the entire town's (military/safety) supply of bullets and gunpowder for about four solid years. Apparently, if the militia(s) needed supplies, then they would come to the local garrison to get them.
I can't help but contrast this story with what we have going on in this country currently. We have a lot of nuts who are stockpiling arms and ammunition, because they feel that they will one day be at war with our government. There is no other way to state it. Yes, we have lots of people who own guns and ammo for entirely other reasons, but there are still MANY who are stockpiling in the belief that they are going to protect this nation from a tyrannical government, either home-grown, or invading. Would those people consider letting a town selectman store all their bullets and powder?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Stories like this are common...
The Revolution, like all subsequent wars, was fought with America's collective arms...
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thats a nice account of the local or county stocks
But I doubt that was the TOTALITY of all arms and amunitions held, as you suggest. Im quite sure individuals did keep arms and ammo in their homes. So, Im not sure where you are going with this.
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. yeah
just sounds like the local sherrif stocking up every so often

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. The facts disagree with you
the story said that the town had the same amount of powder and lead in 1777 that the guy picked up three years earlier. It sure doesn't sound like they were adding to their stockpile every so often. On the contrary, it sounds like a big one time tax and one time weapons purchase for the town to use to protect itself.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Doesnt say anything about private citizens though
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 10:48 PM by goju
"I'm posting this, because I've noticed that some of the "pro RKBA" advocates (not necessarily in THIS website) seem to be trying to distort American history. They seem to want us to believe that Colonial America was some sort of "gun owners utopia" where all guns are completely legal, readily available, and totally unregulated. "It was that widespread availability of guns, that led to our very freedom", they will tell us.

While reading a book about colonial American history, I found a story that seemed to state otherwise."


In fact it does not state otherwise. What it states is that the town invested in stocking arms and charged one man with the job of keeping them. It doesnt say anything about what private citizens owned, or regulation of guns or legality of owning them. Unless I missed something?

"From the above story, it seems that Mr. Ham held the entire town's (military/safety) supply of bullets and gunpowder for about four solid years."

Not quite. He held what the town purchased, not what individuals had on their own. Im sure you are well aware that most colonies in fact had regulations "requiring" private citizens to keep a rifle and powder/bullets. And Im fairly sure they depended on those citizens should the need arise. Otherwise, why the requiremnt? What you read is nothing more than the colonial era version of an armor, much like we have today.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. One simple question
We have a lot of nuts who are stockpiling arms and ammunition, because they feel that they will one day be at war with our government.

What do you mean by "a lot"?
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I am not stockpiling for a personal war with the Government.
I have guns because I hunt, target shoot, and believe in home defense. However, I personally interpret the reasoning for the Second Amendment to ensure that we are never divested of our arms in preparation for a totalitarian system. IF that makes me an apocalyptic gun nut, you have a narrow view of the world.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. My question was addressed to Lefty48197
I'm trying to determine the nature and scope of the alleged "nuts who are stockpiling arms and ammunition, because they feel that they will one day be at war with our government" Bogeyman.

I have never met anyone who fits that description.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. ah, the LPR phenomenon strikes again...
Seems to me that Libra hit reply at the end of the last post in the thread at the time(yours) when he meant to reply to the original post.

This is minor, I know, but I've seen some HUGE arguments started by mistaken last-post replies...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'm sure that's the explanation
I mean, why else would someone see the phrase "a lot of nuts" and respond as if he were part of that group?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Just who do you think you are calling an LPR?
I am not now, nor have I ever been, registered as an LPR.

:argh:
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. 4 million NRA members "can't" be wrong
about wanting to start an armed war with our government.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Always interesting to see how "honest" gun controllers
manufacture facts.

Here's a few tidbits that shed light on an infamous gun controller's claims about colonial america:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/03/02/MN13172.DTL
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Actually, that story is documented in the town papers of Wolfeborough
or maybe some liberal made the stuff up in 1774 so that I could use it today?
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I dont doubt the story
Not at all. Im quite sure every town had an armor charged with keeping stocks of weapons and ammunitions. I just doubt that the implication that citizen arms were rare or regulated. My link above provides a clue.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why should I not store my own....
bullets and powder?
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turnkey Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's called reloading...
Just need a press & dies! ;)
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Or bulk purchase...n/t
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Phantom_5C1 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think this is what you mean
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to borrow and return Arms, shall not be infringed. :eyes:
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. LOL!
Good one!
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Well regulated. Yeah that is a laugh.
good one.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. Its just more propaganda
The poster "assumed" that in this particular town, and therefore all the American colonies, all arms and ammunition were held by a "committe of safety". Hardly backed up by evidence though. The unnamed source of his post mentions nothing of private arms/ammunition stores, only of the very crude beginnings of our militia and the town's efforts to equip it.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Perhaps, you should have read the entire post?
If you had, then you would have noticed this part:

This excerpt is from "History of the Town of Wolfeborough New Hampshire", by Benjamin Franklin Parker, pg 146-47:

BTW, The Library of Congress Catalog Card Number is 74-18702 (just in case you'd like to check up on my source)
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Didnt see it
Nevertheless, I never doubted the veracity of the story, only the conclusions you were drawing. The excerpt says nothing about private citizens' arms or any regulations.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Good, it wasn't just me...n/t
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. ..
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 10:42 PM by MrSandman
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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. As I recall from my college days
Such stockpiling was done during that time as a safety net, if you will, in the event of hostilities between the settlers and the indigenous peoples of the new lands of America. IT was nothing more than local groups or governments assuring that there would be sufficient lead for ball and powder on hand should the townsfolk need to defend themselves against, or in some cases attack, the indigenous folk.

It had nothing to do with a militia per se.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
27. A history lesson from the "gun nuts" ...
‘The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. ‘A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.’ And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time. Blackstone’s Commentaries, Vol. 2, Ch. 13, p. 409 points out ‘that king Alfred first settled a national militia in this kingdom’ and traces the subsequent development and use of such forces.

Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations, Book V. Ch. 1, contains an extended account of the Militia. It is there said: ‘Men of republican principles have been jealous of a standing army as dangerous to liberty.’ ‘In a militia, the character of the labourer, artificer, or tradesman, predominates over that of the soldier: in a standing army, that of the soldier predominates over every other character; and in this distinction seems to consist the essential difference between those two different species of military force.’

‘The American Colonies In The 17th Century’, Osgood, Vol. 1, ch. XIII, affirms in reference to the early system of defense in New England- ‘In all the colonies, as in England, the militia system was based on the principle of the assize of arms. This implied the general obligation of all adult male inhabitants to possess arms, and, with certain exceptions, to <307 U.S. 174, 180> cooperate in the work of defence.’ ‘The possession of arms also implied the possession of ammunition, and the authorities paid quite as much attention to the latter as to the former.’ ‘A year later (1632) it was ordered that any single man who had not furnished himself with arms might be put out to service, and this became a permanent part of the legislation of the colony (Massachusetts).’

Also ‘Clauses intended to insure the possession of arms and ammunition by all who were subject to military service appear in all the important enactments concerning military affairs. Fines were the penalty for delinquency, whether of towns or individuals. According to the usage of the times, the infantry of Massachusetts consisted of pikemen and musketeers. The law, as enacted in 1649 and thereafter, provided that each of the former should be armed with a pike, corselet, head-piece, sword, and knapsack. The musketeer should carry a ‘good fixed musket,’ not under bastard musket bore, not less than three feet, nine inches, nor more than four feet three inches in length, a priming wire, scourer, and mould, a sword, rest, bandoleers, one pound of powder, twenty bullets, and two fathoms of match. The law also required that two-thirds of each company should be musketeers.’

The General Court of Massachusetts, January Session 1784 (Laws and Resolves 1784, c. 55, pp. 140, 142), provided for the organization and government of the Militia. It directed that the Train Band should ‘contain all able bodied men, from sixteen to forty years of age, and the Alarm List, all other men under sixty years of age, ....’ Also, ‘That every non-commissioned officer and private soldier of the said militia not under the controul of parents, masters or guardians, and being of sufficient ability therefor in the judgment of the Selectmen of the town in which he shall dwell, shall equip himself, and be constantly provided with a good fire arm, &c.’
By an Act passed April 4, 1786 (Laws 1786, c. 25), the New York Legislature directed: ‘That every able-bodied Male Person, be- <307 U.S. 174, 181> ing a Citizen of this State, or of any of the United States, and residing in this State, (except such Persons as are herein after excepted) and who are of the Age of Sixteen, and under the Age of Forty-five Years, shall, by the Captain or commanding Officer of the Beat in which such Citizens shall reside, within four Months after the passing of this Act, be enrolled in the Company of such Beat. ... That every Citizen so enrolled and notified, shall, within three Months thereafter, provide himself, at his own Expense, with a good Musket or Firelock, a sufficient Bayonet and Belt, a Pouch with a Box therein to contain not less than Twenty-four Cartridges suited to the Bore of his Musket or Firelock, each Cartridge containing a proper Quantity of Powder and Ball, two spare Flints, a Blanket and Knapsack; ....’

The General Assembly of Virginia, October, 1785 (12 Hening’s Statutes c. 1, p. 9 et seq.), declared: ‘The defense and safety of the commonwealth depend upon having its citizens properly armed and taught the knowledge of military duty.’ It further provided for organization and control of the Militia and directed that ‘All free male persons between the ages of eighteen and fifty years,’ with certain exceptions, ‘shall be inrolled or formed into companies.’ ‘There shall be a private muster of every company once in two months.’ Also that ‘Every officer and soldier shall appear at his respective muster-field on the day appointed, by eleven o’clock in the forenoon, armed, equipped, and accoutred, as follows: ... every non-commissioned officer and private with a good, clean musket carrying an ounce ball, and three feet eight inches long in the barrel, with a good bayonet and iron ramrod well fitted thereto, a cartridge box properly made, to contain and secure twenty cartridges fitted to his musket, a good knapsack and canteen, and moreover, each non-commissioned officer and private shall have at every muster one pound of good <307 U.S. 174, 182> powder, and four pounds of lead, including twenty blind cartridges; and each serjeant shall have a pair of moulds fit to cast balls for their respective companies, to be purchased by the commanding officer out of the monies arising on delinquencies. Provided, That the militia of the counties westward of the Blue Ridge, and the counties below adjoining thereto, shall not be obliged to be armed with muskets, but may have good rifles with proper accoutrements, in lieu thereof. And every of the said officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, shall constantly keep the aforesaid arms, accoutrements, and ammunition, ready to be produced whenever called for by his commanding officer. If any private shall make it appear to the satisfaction of the court hereafter to be appointed for trying delinquencies under this act that he is so poor that he cannot purchase the arms herein required, such court shall cause them to be purchased out of the money arising from delinquents.’ Most if not all of the States have adopted provisions touching the right to keep and bear arms. Differences in the language employed in these have naturally led to somewhat variant conclusions concerning the scope of the right guaranteed. But none of them seem to afford any material support for the challenged ruling of the court below.
(my emphasis)
(end of Quote)



...in the Supreme Court.
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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. surely, you must know that it is heresy to imply that guns havent always
been a permanent, pervasive part of society. to assert that america could do without them is a grave offense. but you'll learn.

--Sarcasm off--
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Heresy no, factually incorrect absolutely
But dont get upset about it, I understand all that reading in school is a bore. Just dial 1-800-VPC-Help, they will do ALL the thinking for you. No reason to strain yourself, right?
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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. all the reading i've done in school...
hasnt talked about everyone having a shitload of guns back in the day. there's a difference between that and a family having a 20 year old hunting rifle.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. And you'll notice for people who want to lean on "facts"
our trigger-happy chums never seem to have a one, although they're laden down with right wing talking points.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Well I dont know
Its hard to quantify a "shitload". But if you mean every man 16-60 years old being required to keep a rifle and ammunition in certain quantities, than yeah I guess they did have a shitload.
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