Parents wonder how the IDF shot their 9-year-old daughter

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Khan Yunis, Gaza. A week ago today, at about 7:00 P.M., Israel Defense Forces soldiers killed Aya al-Astal, 9, of Khan Yunis. She was killed east of the city, close to where the Kissufim checkpoint was located.

Aya's grieving parents cannot understand how their daughter nearly reached the border fence, eight kilometers away, and how the soldiers, with their sophisticated and accurate night-vision equipment, killed their tiny little girl."

<snip>

"At about 7:30 P.M. last Thursday, the IDF informed the Palestinian security coordinator that "soldiers shot and hit a terrorist." The commander of Palestinian national security in the area, Maher Ziara, was notified.

Two hours later, Ziara and his men began searching the area. At about 10:00 P.M., Ziada recalled, he saw a small figure folded up on the bare ground.

"She was so small, I almost thought she was a doll," Ziada said this week. He saw a large hole on the left side of her neck, and then noticed bullet holes in her left knee, right arm and the left side of her abdomen. The IDF report said she was carrying a large backpack. Ziada and his men found no pack in the area."

more

[Tom Joad]

1. Israel terror groups must be dismantled and disarmed!

[tatertop]

2. STOP all aid to Israel. How hard can it be?

What a fucking joke.

[Coastie for Truth]

6. Well, when the US cuts off aid to Hadassah Hospital

(especially their stem cell research enhanced islets of Langerhans transplantation) and the Weldon-Coburn Bill becomes law (criminalizing leaving the US for stem cell derived therapeutics) - you can die.

I also happen to like Israel's prophylaxis for Barrett's Esophagus (a pre-cancerous lesion).

[Violet_Crumble]

19. US funding is all the $$$ Israel has at its disposal???

Somehow I think not. Israel should have enough funding to fund its own hospitals and let the US fund hospitals in countries that need the assistance...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

22. I recognize the currrent agendas of some "Progressives"

The money to Hadassah and Technion and Weitzman is research money.

Search and Study and Read before posting -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi


I realize this is a "political site" (actually isn't) - but that doesn't excuse avoiding bio science realities.

[tatertop]

5. Thank You. I know you have been there, seen that.

Thank you

[Coastie for Truth]

24. I have been there too

and toured the WB (OT) with a left wing, Trotskyite "Peace Now" candidate for the Knesset. (two of her uncles were blacklisted by the McCarthy Committee - did you see "Good Night and Good Luck")

Israelis are not one dimensional cardboard cut-out figures that some DUers caricature them as.

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. Almost 5 miles

Did it occur to anyone that the unnamed neighbor who offered her bread - the last one to see her alive, might have had something to do with this? Why would a 9 year old take the bus to the border?

Sorry, but this sounds awfully like the other children who've been used for terror purposes.

[tatertop]

4. WOW!!!! un be lieve a ble

Have you ever been to occupied Palestine?
WOW!!!!!!!

[Coastie for Truth]

7. I have.

And I was taken there by a "Peace Now" candidate for the Knesset.

[Fredda Weinberg]

9. Unbelievable? I wish

The case of a 14-year-old Palestinian boy captured wearing a vest packed with explosives at a West Bank checkpoint makes the headlines in Israel's media and prompts condemnation of the people who sent him out to die.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3567791.stm

[Tom Joad]

12. There is no evidence to support this. Listen to Amnesty Int'l

Only your wishful thinking that Israeli soldiers would not kill innocent children. Unfortunately, fantasies do not correspond with reality.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/isr-summary-eng
The Israeli army killed more than 700 Palestinians, including some 150 children. Most were killed unlawfully — in reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas; in extrajudicial executions; and as a result of excessive use of force.

And this year the death toll was down!

[Violet_Crumble]

20. No, because it's a stupid theory...

You know what this sounds like Fredda? An awful lot like the other children shot by the IDF. These incidents have been detailed by human rights organisations, btw...

Violet...

[pocket]

8. this is a rogue nation

Israel

[channa18]

14. Really ??

Thats quite a statement.

You know.........nah, its not worth the repercussions.

[Englander]

16. What's Up, Doc? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Doctor Who?

[Englander]

40. Dr, do.

Or, Dr, don't?

:)

[RJnAbbysNana]

47. Hmmmmmm!!!!!

I can guess.

RJnAbbysNana

[Englander]

18. I prefer the phrase 'pariah state'. n/t

[Scurrilous]

10. Israel's shooting of young girl highlights international hypocrisy,

Full title: Israel's shooting of young girl highlights international hypocrisy, say Palestinians

<snip>

"As the votes were counted in the Palestinian election and the scale of Hamas's landslide became apparent to the world, Aya al-Astal drifted away from her home and wandered towards the fence along the border between the Gaza strip and Israel. The nine-year-old girl's parents realised she was gone as they watched the election results on television. They do not know precisely what happened, but the Israeli army later said Aya was behaving in a suspicious manner reminiscent of a terrorist - she got too close to the border fence - and so a soldier fired several bullets into the child, hitting her in the neck and blowing open her stomach.

Aya was the second child killed by the Israeli army last week. Soldiers near Ramallah shot 13-year-old Munadel Abu Aaalia in the back as he walked along a road reserved for Jewish settlers with two friends. The army said the boys planned to throw rocks at Israeli cars, which the military defines as terrorism.

The two killings went unnoticed by the outside world amid the political drama, but they made their impact among Palestinians angered by demands from western leaders for Hamas to recognise Israel and renounce its armed struggle.

Some Palestinians see the demands as a rejection of a democratic election and as siding with Israel. Others see hypocrisy. They say Israeli soldiers killed twice as many Palestinians last week alone - both of them children - as the number of Israelis killed by Hamas all last year."

more

[DELUSIONAL]

11. A dispositional high number of CHILDREN are being murdered by

the Israeli Army.

And ALWAYS the "Israel can do no wrong ever" jumps to the defense of even the most blatant murder of a child.

The worst was the shooting in the head of a three year old baby who was throwing rocks in the direction of Israeli gestapo. The murder of that baby made me see what was really happening. Both sides make me ill -- but the deliberate murder of children has absolutely no excuse.

[pelsar]

13. at night, near the border....

wow..a figure approaches the border fence at night......the soldiers spot the movement via night scopes and shoot:

They say they have such sophisticated equipment for night vision," Saliman said over and over. "Couldn't they see it was a little girl?

for all you "ex military" here who seem to have forgotten how limited night vision scopes are....the answer is no, you cant always tell sizes.

the real question is, who sent her and why?...knowing full well that the IDF would defend its border using deadly force.

[idontwantaname]

17. to expose the brutality of military occupation on a civilian population

as it is evident that the label "terrorist" means ANY palestinian regardless of age, gender ect.

------------------------

"At about 7:30 P.M. last Thursday, the IDF informed the Palestinian security coordinator that "soldiers shot and hit a terrorist."

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Is anything ever the fault of Israel or the IDF?

I'm getting very curious...

btw, anyone who can't tell the difference between a nine year old and an adult and who opens fire at any movement have no place being in the military and should be supplied with a seeing eye dog and a warning never to touch a weapon ever again...

Violet...

[pelsar]

23. explanation and honesty.....

if your asking was it a mistake...obviously it was, if your wondering why it happend, then for those who have never had to define objects/people/packages via night vision goggless, they might want to inquire as to what exactly one can and what cant one see.

that would be for those who are actually curious as to "how much fault belongs to the soldier".... they also might want to inquire as to the chain of command when one can and cannot shoot (rules of engagement)

also inquiring minds might wonder what was she doing at that time of night at the border area, where the IDF does shoot those who attempt to cross the border. In fact the use of children as a "test" to check the reaction of the IDF was (is?) very common when new units change the old

but then, those questions and the answers would be for those who are actually curious as to the actual process/ reasons./ pros and cons of the process.....as opposed to the default: crying "israeli intentionally murders children"

but this kind of statement:
anyone who can't tell the difference between a nine year old and an adult and who opens fire at any movement has no place if someone would like to know how it happened, since i doubt the writer has ever peered though night vision goggles in an area with the same envronment of gaza....and so wouldnt have much understanding of what one does actually see or what one doesnt.....

[Englander]

41. A simple 'no' would've been sufficient. n/t

[pelsar]

50. can you?

under those circumstances?

[RJnAbbysNana]

45. Cheap excuses won't resurrect the life of an innocent child.

Furthermore, I'm tired of seeing your lame excuses for what, in actuality, is unforgiveable genocide.

Regards,

RJnAbbysNana

[Englander]

15. Because they can. n/t

[Popol Vuh]

25. Please when ever is this kind of shit going to stop.

WTF is wrong with people? Shooting a little baby girl? :cry:

Their homes and their land stolen from them. Forced onto ghetto reservations. Shot down like dogs. Portrayed in the media as the bad people who need to be controlled like animals. Called blood thirsty terrorists when they fight back.


When I watch the plight of the Palestinian people, what I see is what I can best describe as a modern version of a manifest destiny policy. And when I watch and pay attention to the big-picture of what we are doing in the middle east, I see a modern version of empire building. Then I say to myself: Please when ever is this kind of shit going to stop?


------



This heart wrenching story of this poor little girl reminds me of one story I remember reading about when my people were being butchered from a policy of manifest destiny.


Sand Creek:

"There was one little child, probably three years old, just big enough to walk through the sand. The Indians had gone ahead, and this little child was behind following after them. The little fellow was perfectly naked, traveling on the sand. I saw one man get off his horse, at a distance of about seventy-five yards, and draw up his rifle and fire-he missed the child. Another man came up and said, 'Let me try the son of a bitch; I can hit him.' He got down off his horse, kneeled down and fired at the little child, but he missed him. A third man came up and make a similar remark, and fired, and the little fellow dropped."

--- Major Scott Anthony (1st Colorado Cavalry): Testimony, 1864, before the United States Congress on the Massacre at Sand Creek.




When will human beings learn to live like civilized beings? :cry:

[Tom Joad]

27. When will it stop? When enough of us work to defund this atrocity.

For reference, see here:
http://www.endtheoccupation.org/groups.php

We can't do this alone, but join others in stopping this crime of funding this 20th century version of "manifest destiny". There are other groups that are not part of this coalition, so this just a suggested list, not exhaustive.

There are also several ways you can go to Palestine and see for yourself what is happening.

The main point is that much of the violence starts right here in the USA, as it fully funds the occupaion. So we can do much to stop the insanity.

[Coastie for Truth]

28. THE US FUNDS THE TERROR - THE OCCUPATION WILL END WHEN THE TERROR ENDS

THE US FULLY FUNDS THE TERROR BY THE SKIM OFF OF $67/BARREL CRUDE THAT GOES TO THE SAUDI ROYALS - AND FROM THE SAUDI ROYALS - VIA "CHARITIES" -- TO THE TERRORISTS.

STOP FUNDING THE TERRORISTS.

BUSH WILL NOT - EVER STOP FUNDING THE TERRORISTS - HE BACKED DOWN MOMENTS AFTER THE SOTU - HE IS AN OIL MAN IN BED WITH THE SAUDI ROYALS AND THE OIL PLUTOCRATS.

THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THE TERR0R (AND CONCOMITTANTLY THE OCCUPATION) IS TO DEFUND THE TERRORISTS.

AND THE ONLY WAY TO DEFUND THE TERRORISTS IS TO STOP IMPORTING $67/BARREL CRUDE ----

RAISE CORPORATE AVERAGE FUEL ECONOMY ("CAFE") TO 44 MILES PER GALLON

BRING BACK TO EAST COAST AND WEST COAST "TEN PERCENT OF ALL CARS MUST BE ZERO EMISSIONS CARS (ELECTRICS)" MANDATE

[Tom Joad]

29. Israel settles in the West Bank because... we don't drive hybrids?

You mean this was all a plan to force the US to carpool? Drive electric cars?

Another classic non-sequitur, this time with the caps lock on.

However, to claim that Israel has settled, quite permanently, in the West Bank, hundreds of thousands of settlers, because of "terrorism" and not because they believe the land belongs to "Jewish people only" is really quite a stretch.
There are 187,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem. Another 180,000 in East Jerusalem alone.

They have promised to leave when i stop buying gas?

I can't blame you for not wanting to talk about the subject at-hand, Israeli military shooting little girls.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. I once invited you to lunch - I am following up

You, me, and your two faculty colleagues John Newman (Chem E) and Severin Bornstein (economics) - and lets seriously discuss this.

MacArthur Park - across from Stanford (my money - my turf).

When the terror stops - the WB is given back. - Just like the Sinai - including gas wells, oil wells, off shore oil and gas wells - all given back to Egypt for a piece of paper.

[channa18]

33. I travel a good bit.....

i would love an invite. (my money of course)

[Violet_Crumble]

39. Shouldn't you keep this personal stuff to PM?

Email's good for this sort of stuff that's about as interesting to the rest of us as me giving a detailed account of what I'm going to have for dinner...


Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

43. If we changed our private passenger car fleet to 40 mpg cars

1. We would need about 25% less crude - you can check this out with my friend Severin Bornstein at UC Berkeley. (A lot of crude goes for diesel, petrochemicals, paving asphalt, etc.)

2. Crude is fungible - but assuming that whole reduction was taken by imports, we would import about 40% of what we now import.

3. Again, recognizing that crude is fungible - we could cut out all of our imports from the ME - leaving just Europe importing from the ME.

4. That would be a significant cut in ME's crude exports - leaving them with less discretionary income (read "International Economics: Theory and Policy" by Paul R. Krugman and Maurice Obstfeld or something similar)/ That is less discretionary income to give to "charities".

5. Assuming Hamas keeps up its educational, medical, and social services spending (which I concede they do - and praise them for it), and cuts back on its "special operations" type military spending - the Israeli Left (like Peace Now, Kernels of Peace, B'tselem, Brit Tzedek, JVP, AJVP, etc.) will bring political pressure to knock out the Haredi and return to the WB.

For its Jewish citizens, Israel is more democratic then the Bushco Theocratic Evangelical States of Amerika is for non-Evangelicals.

The secular and progressive Jewish citizens in israel have more impact then non-Evangelical Dems in the Bushco Theocratic Evangelical States of Amerika.

I do support the Zionist ideology because I don't trust the Evangelicals (my grandparents had crosses burned on their front yards) - and I think that all who do not follow the Bushco Theocratic Evangelical States of Amerika party line (African-Americans, Latinos, Jews, NARAL, ACLU, Progressives, handicappers, GLBT, etc.) are going to see hard times in Bushco land. See, e.g., Jennifer Van Bergen, "The Twilight of Democracy:The Bush Plan for America."

I think this new, militant anti-Zionism is part of the RW plan to further divide progressives -- look it funds Allison Weir's "If Amercans Knew" - the same people who funded the Joe Corsi-John O'Neill "Swift Boat Veterans" and Anti-Choicer/Judenreiner Paul Findley.

[RJnAbbysNana]

44. You don't have to yell, you know?

People can hear you quite plainly with simple, ordinary typewritten remarks.

Regards,

RJnAbbysNana

[Tom Joad]

26. "Even a three year old needs to be killed"--Captain R, IDF

http://pamolson.org/ArtIman13.htm

But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".

The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.

At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.
________________________________________
Remember Iman al-Hams

[pelsar]

31. year and a half out of date...

try to find some "newer stuff"....

[Tom Joad]

35. Parents grieve the same as if it were last week, like the original post.

Perhaps you would find that hard to comprehend, that Palestinians have families who grieve the loss of a child. It's true though, they really do grieve for a long time.

The original post above, the nine year-old girl was from just days ago.

Why do you want me to find "newer stuff"?

What i would like very much is to not find anything "new" for a long time. I would rather there would be no more of this. That the troops would, at least, just for a start, stop targeting children. Unlikely to happen though, even within an hour of posting that I heard of another 15 year old injured (fortunately not killed, to my knowledge) by IDF forces.

[pelsar]

48. its not a matter of grieving.....

its a matter of taking an article thats over a year and half old and using it as if it happened yesterday..thats what i like to call intellectual dishonesty...

if you cant find anything similar perhaps its because the IDF has made some changes....

[RJnAbbysNana]

52. Dream on, pelsar!

As the old saying goes, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Besides, any changes have to be implemented from the top down, and I don't see that happening any time soon in Israel.

RJnAbbysNana

[pelsar]

57. dont read much?

the IDF changes tactics constantly.....as well as methods...

[Violet_Crumble]

53. I seem to remember you posting a 3 year old article about an honor killing

and using it as if it happened yesterday...what was that you were saying about intellectual dishonesty, pelsar?

Violet...

[pelsar]

56. i also mentioned that it was old....

if i recall correctly, when i do post an old article to express a point...and its out of date, i mention the date and why i am posting it,....if i didnt in any particular case, it should be mentioned to me, and will either apologise if i made a mistake or put the explanation in

not to difficult

[Violet_Crumble]

58. No..you didn't...

I'll go and get the link if you still disagree...

Here's the link to the thread you started with a three year old article, and you did NOT say anything about it being old, nor make any attempt to pass it off as anything but something that had only recently happened...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x112521



Violet...

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eyl]

42. Except that, ath the trial

it was determined that R. didn't have a functioning radio at the time the identification was made.

[Popol Vuh]

32. Palestine is Still the Issue

Good video I recommend watching. n/t

video 1hr

[pelsar]

34. responsability is the issue...n/t

[Popol Vuh]

36. Is it a responsible act

to put a little girl in the cross hairs of a rifle and squeeze the trigger? --And-- Just for the sake of argument, even IF the person squeezing the trigger just recently had their little child killed in a terrorist act?


Is it a responsible act to send bulldozers into other people's homes and land and demolish them, then steal the land and build homes for someone else?

Is it a responsible act to violate someone else's land and build on it and claim it as your own?

Is it a responsible act to indiscriminately fire into residential areas, especially when nobody is shooting at you?

Is it a responsible act to force a people to live like dogs after their homes and land was taken from them?

Is it a responsible act to use military force in a scorched earth manner to go after terrorists who've committed a terrorist act?

Is it a responsible act to expect a people who have been robbed from and treated like dogs -- to not bite back?


Yes I agree with you one hundred percent. This issue can be boiled done to "responsibility". And unfortunately the state of Israel has been the least responsible acting, and the instigator of most irresponsible acts from the other side.

[Tom Joad]

37. We should honor those young Israelis that refuse to join the military.

We should remember that there are those Israeli young men and women who refuse to be part of the occupation. They have the courage to resist, the courage to stand for sanity.

See for example: http://www.yeshgvul.org

We can also honor those who refuse to serve In Bush&Co war OF terrorism in the Middle East.
http://tomjoad.org/WarHeroes.htm

[pelsar]

49. yes we do honor them...

because they have the courage for a conviction and understand that responsability that goes with it...thats part of the israeli society, a very tolerent society for those who "play by the rules"

Now then perhaps you would like to point me to the counterpart on the palestenain side, so that we may have a discussion about convictions, responsabilites and tolerence.......

i couldnt find one......

[Violet_Crumble]

54. Yr aware that the Palestinians don't have a military or conscription....

So sitting there and demanding to see counterparts of Israeli refuseniks doesn't make sense. It also makes me wonder how that question could be asked if it's understood *why* the refuseniks are refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories. Also, the refuseniks aren't playing by the rules, not in a state where the military takes on much more of a central role in the identity of the state than it tends to elsewhere...

Violet...

[pelsar]

55. the refusniks...

are body of citizens of israel who have formed an organization who have made a non violent political decision and are not willing to part take in certain activities and are publicizing it and are willing to take the consequences....

palestenain groups can do the same....they can protest violent actions by the various palestenian groups and say loud and clear that they disagree..put adds in the paper, posters etc

in fact years ago, some tried, they put some ads in the paper saying sucide bombers are not the way... a week later they retracted it (ashrawi was invovled...)

the fact that they "folded" underpressure doesnt excuse them...

________
and how arent the refusniks not playing by the rules? they break the law in a non violent way and are willing to take the consequences

what part of that is "not playing by the rules of democracy?--expain?

[martymar64]

51. May that soldiers daughter die too

Eye for an eye, ya know.

[Lithos]

59. Locking

This thread has stopped being useful.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator