U.S. and Israelis Are Said to Talk of Hamas Ouster - NY Times 2/24/2006

[Coastie for Truth]

The United States and Israel are discussing ways to destabilize the Palestinian government so that newly elected Hamas officials will fail and elections will be called again, according to Israeli officials and Western diplomats.

The intention is to starve the Palestinian Authority of money and international connections to the point where, some months from now, its president, Mahmoud Abbas, is compelled to call a new election. The hope is that Palestinians will be so unhappy with life under Hamas that they will return to office a reformed and chastened Fatah movement. The officials also argue that a close look at the election results shows that Hamas won a smaller mandate than previously understood.

The officials and diplomats, who said this approach was being discussed at the highest levels of the State Department and the Israeli government, spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly on the issue.

Today, an Israeli foreign ministry spokesman, Mark Regev, was quoted by The Associated Press as saying "there was no such plan." But the officials and diplomats say Hamas will be given a choice: recognize Israel's right to exist, forswear violence and accept previous Palestinian-Israeli agreements — as called for by the United Nations and the West — or face isolation and collapse.



Compare and contrast ---

[murray hill farm]

1. Isn't that amazing and pathetic!

I guess it just doesn't matter any more about freedom and democracy. Here we have democracy in action and the results of a democratic election are seen as not what the usa and isreal would have liked them to be...soooooooooooooooooo..what? Off with their heads because we do not agree with a countries democratic choices? This is insane!

[RJnAbbysNana]

2. The U.S. has no right to be meddling here.

Who are we to determine what's supposedly "good" for the Palestinian people when they've already been to the polls and determined that for themselves?

But you can't tell the U.S. government not to meddle in the affairs of another country, can you? Hell, no! The Bush administration is hellbent on reshaping the ME into what it thinks is right for the peoples thereof, so we may as well "spit into the wind" when it comes to telling our government what it should or shouldn't do.

One of these days - and it's coming sooner than some people may want to accept - the nations of the ME are going to say "enough is enough," and the U.S. is going to have hell to pay for its meddling and war mongering.

"The chickens will come home to roost" again, and we'll have no one to blame but ourselves. To paraphrase the words of Jesus Christ, "Whatsoever a man (nation) soweth, that shall he (it) also reap."

These words of Jesus' are an eternal law which will never change.

Regards,

RJnAbbysNana

[murray hill farm]

7. Right on, Abbysnanna!

Wish i had a heart left to give ya! Ha! so, instead..happy valentines day to you...someone who actually "gets it"! And you are right...we will all get it..and most will not notice until they get it smack dab in the face.

[Tom Joad]

3. Such policies will kill Palestinian children.

The plan by the U.S./Israeli govts to destabilize Hamas by striking at the economy of the Occupied Territories reminds me of Nixon/Kissinger plan to destroy the economy under democratically-elected President Allende of Chile to destabilize the government. They wanted to make the economy “scream”. Eventually they promoted a coup that gave the Chilean people Pinochet, a brutal fascist dictator. (btw, Pinochet did have good relations with Israel, and the United States.)

This is even worse. The Israeli govt will be extracting tax money from Palestinian citizens, by military force, then withholding it and keeping it from vital services.

Taxation under occupation?!? The US has a history of has armed rebellion for as much. This will breed more violence in this situation too.

These economic sanctions themselves have consequences. The economy of Palestine is already screaming in pain.

A humanitarian crisis is growing in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. A full 22% of Palestinian children under the age of 5 have been found to be suffering from malnutrition. Nearly 16% are suffering from anemia, many of whom will suffer from permanent negative effects on their physical and mental development as a result. This is the findings of a study sponsored by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and John Hopkins University, cited in a report put out by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. See here.

“There is a humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza. It is not the result of a natural disaster. Instead, it is a crisis imposed by a powerful State on its neighbor” the UN commission states.

The future of the Palestinian people is threatened by Hurricane Bush/Olmert. This will bring nothing but more pain, suffering and violence. It is tragic that the US and Israeli governments pursue such short-sighted strategies.

[Colorado Blue]

10. I'm sorry, Mr. Joad, but you are fantasizing. The taxes are

collected WITHIN ISRAEL, as follows:

"Israel's monthly tax transfers to the PA stem from the joint customs arrangement created by the Oslo Accords. Under it, Israel collects indirect taxes - value-added tax and customs duties - on imports destined for the PA and transfers the revenues to the PA once a month. "

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=676208

Please do not fabricate misinformation.

[Englander]

13. No, that's not correct.

Don't be disengenous, don't misrepesent another poster's stated views, you've
missed the point, & it appears, made the claim that another poster is, quote,
'fabricating misinformation', ie that they're lying.

The point is that this tax money is intended for the PA, that this money is
not the property of the GoI, & that the Oslo Accords oblige Isreal to pay the
PA these revenues collected on imports destined for the PA. As the Haaretz article
spells out;

'>snip

However, Olmert and other ministers opposed transferring the money. They argued that other countries would be studying Israel's behavior before deciding how they should behave toward the new Hamas government, and if Israel continued transferring funds to the PA as if nothing had happened, other countries might view that as a justification for following suit - even though the Israeli transfers consist of tax money that actually belongs to the Palestinians, whereas other countries' transfers are voluntary donations.'

Where's the outrage? The Isreali authorities were with-holding essential revenue
from the PA, & are now considering an economic blockade, you don't support this, shurely?

[sabbat hunter]

14. what israel should do is

stop collecting the money. dont collect the VAT taxes, etc on imported goods going into the west bank and gaza. no tax collected, no money to be dispirsed.

[Englander]

16. No, because that's an absurdist suggestion.

More than a little nauseating, as well. The money is essential income, & any
suggestion that it should be with-held, or not collected, or used as a bargaining
tool, or not really that important, strikes me as being an astoundingly illiberal
idea. The approx $50m revenue is essential.


'Funding crisis looms for Palestinians
By Robert Plummer
BBC News business reporter

The new Hamas-led Palestinian government may be facing the potential loss of international financial help, but a more immediate cash crisis is likely to come from closer to home.

The salaries of some 140,000 Palestinian Authority employees largely depend on regular money transfers from the Israeli government which are now in jeopardy.

The $50m or so that the authority receives each month from Israel helps to pay security officers, teachers and medical staff who, between them, support up to one-fifth of the Palestinian territories' 3.8 million people.

This money is not aid, but income. It is customs duty and value-added tax, collected by Israel on behalf of the Palestinians, which is normally handed over automatically on the first of each month.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4666080.stm

[sabbat hunter]

18. why should

israel collect money for a regime that has sworn to destroy it. let the PA collect their own money.

[Tom Joad]

23. They would need their own state.

Now that is an idea. Then Palestinians could make decisions on their own, as a sovereign state. Israel would then have to evacuate completely. No more Jewish-only access roads, segragated settlements, foreign armies. Walls in Palestine will be torn down.

Hamas has stated such an act would produce a truce that will last a hundred years.

[Colorado Blue]

19. OF COURSE I am extremely uncomfortable with any policy that

harms innocent people. This, however, must include the people of Israel, who are quite likely to suffer in the future, from terrorism and probably also war.

I'm really conflicted about what I would do, were I in a leadership position in this situation. Is it possible to help the children without arming the warriors?

On the one hand, I should help feed, succor and arm my enemies?

Am I nuts?

On the other hand, I am a human being. I don't want to hurt people.

What to do?

I think some way to get humanitarian aid to people, without its being used to buy weapons and prepare for a major war, has to be found. Dealing with terrorists has only led to grief, however, and appeasing governments like Hitler's only led to war.

I think we have to take Hamas with the utmost seriousness. They say they intend to destroy Israel and I absolutely believe them. People didn't listen to Hitler. They should have.

The people's vote, however, only amounted to about 44% of the total. The various Fatah candidates apparently split the vote so they effectively screwed themselves out of a victory. That has to be borne in mind as well.

This is a strange and unprecedented situation and I think it must be dealt with on a day to day basis.

And, in any case, the tax money isn't going anywhere except into escrow. It isn't being "stolen." I am positive that solutions to the humanitarian problems will be found.

However, another factor, a frustrating factor must be noted here, and that it the fact that BILLIONS have been poured into the P.A. and precious little has emerged in the way of fruitful enterprise, and violence has been unceasing, against Israel and within the territories. Many terrorist attacks have been interdicted just recently; and there have been constant rocket attacks and many deaths, since the withdrawal from Gaza.

A certain amount of responsibility for this situation resides squarely among the Palestinians. A striking example of this: the recent destruction of the greenhouses, which employed hundreds and people and which could have provided substantial income for the people of Gaza.

Meanwhile, hysterical comments that imply the IDF is holding up poor Arabs at gunpoint are certainly not helping matters. This sort of propaganda is fueling violence, creating polarization. Is that the point?

Or what?

[Coastie for Truth]

20. CB - I presented a solution to get humanitarian aid to people in append 15

about the and the only response I got was from somebody on my "IGNORE" list.

To show my good faith - here's the - and the link to . I used the Paypaq™ Payment Solutions Gateway and was not the victim of any scam or fraud or visits from the Department of Homeland Security.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Why are you assuming that people don't already donate to worthy causes?

Personally I'm finding that assumption just a tad insulting. You don't know what people do choose to donate to, Coastie, and I also find yr 'solution' popping up as a sort of 'don't you worry about starving the Palestinian people coz I donate some tiny amount each month to a worthy cause' to be an attempt to justify supporting the illegal withholding of tax revenue. Blech...

Violet...

[Englander]

32. A simple "yes, I do support this blockade" would've sufficed.

And Hitler? Oh, my. As you say;

--I think we have to take Hamas with the utmost seriousness. They say they intend to destroy Israel and I absolutely believe them. People didn't listen to Hitler. They should have.--

Which is later clarified;

--This sort of propaganda is fueling violence, creating polarization. Is that the point?--

[Coastie for Truth]

15. Challenge To People of Good Will

There is one Palestinian organization that I (a left wing, Poale Zionist) make gifts to, and that is (obviously, see my avatar) . So I urge you to join with me, and make a to PRCS.

I am NOT soliciting for any other ICRC Affiliate, like or the which services Alamaeda County, too.

The ICRC slogan:

TOGETHER WE CAN SAVE A LIFE

[Englander]

17. Is the donation $50m/month? n/t

[Tom Joad]

22. Against my will, I make contributions to the Israeli "Defense" Force

With my tax money. US taxes money goes to Israel. Over 3 billion a year.

The victims of the IDF fill up fill the Palestine ambulances. If I could just cease to contribute to the IDF, then there would less work for the ambulances.

People of goodwill should work together to end funding of the Israeli military.

[Coastie for Truth]

24. From what I have been told by PRCS

more victims of auto accidents, residential fires.

But if you want to put your political spin on it, go ahead - I will remember that when I am awakened at 2AM to find housing and activate food funding ("Debit Cards") for newly homeless families at a fire scene.

People of goodwill should work together to develop open societies side by side. Would you like to work with some Palestinian developers to get some Shaaria compliant business applications to market.

BTW, against my will I make contributions to Hamas' military arm:
C8H18

[Tom Joad]

25. Total attacks on by IDF on Red Crescent ambulances 137 vehicles

Oct. 14, 2005 - Total recorded attacks on PRCS ambulances during current crisis is 341 causing damage to 137 vehicles. Total Emergency medical personnel injured is 203.
http://www.palestinercs.org/emsphcunderfire.htm

I think it is wonderful you are supporting the PRCS. They provide humanitarian help for all, including Israelis.
I have no doubt that most of the ambulances used in Palestine are used for purposes other than for victims of the Israeli military. I am just saying if the US were not paying for bullets and APC's Palestinians would make less use of them.

The stats above say nothing of the innumerable times these vehicles are stopped needlessly by the IDF during medical emergencies.

[Coastie for Truth]

27. There are risks we take when we go on calls

A friend of mine suffered a heart attack in one of the Florida Hurricanes in 2004, another friend broke an ankle at a Fire in the Bay Area last year, still another friend had a TIA (mini-stroke) at a fire in Santa Clara on July 3, 2004.

Israeli MDA volunteers have been killed. Palestinian PRCS volunteers have been killed.

Listen up - there are people who go in harm's way for those in peril. Call them Red Cross, Red Crescent, Red Star of David, Fire Fighter, Cop, Rescue Medic, Coast Guardsmen. Sometimes going in harm's way is just a little more then the physical exertion of their day in-day out job. Sometimes it's going out in the face of a howling gale, or going into a burning building to rescue a child. And, sometimes they die.


Sometimes Saint Florian blinks. There is a special place for those who die while going in harm's way rescuing someone in peril.

[Tom Joad]

29. This is different.

That total did not include any accidents, mishaps, bad weather, or anything else, which i am sure happens as well. Only attacks by an occupation army.
For now, i expect, the Palestine Red Crescent faces dangers not faced here.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. You have got some issues to resolve.

Bye Bye <>

[Tom Joad]

31. ...

:shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Last time I checked the US wasn't occupied territory...

Not sure why you think Tom pointing out the obvious leads you to believe he has some issues to resolve. The response to him pointing it out has been one of the stranger things I've seen in my time at DU...




;)

[Jim Sagle]

26. Thanks, buddy.

:toast:

[Wordie]

4. I'm left nearly speechless by the stupidity of this...

the US has more than proved itself absolutely incapable of being a reasonable or fair (or even sane) player in the ME. We need to back off and let the EU have a go. This plan will only cause more destruction and suffering, for which we will quite rightly be blamed. This stupid meddling will serve to further undermine any possible voices of reason, or those striving to create a real democracy in the area, and again strenthen Hamas.

How can we be so stupid???

:headbang:

[Coastie for Truth]

5. I put this in a similar category of stupidity to our Cuban policy

(including the Bay of Pigs and the Embargo), and our support to the end of the Diems.

[Tom Joad]

6. I agree. There is nothing really unique in this.

Intervention in Cuba is a good example of US policy gone crazy, as is US response to Allende's election. We could list a dozen other examples and not be complete.
This is just another example of the short-sightedness of US policy.

[sabbat hunter]

8. wow

a look at 10 days in the future ! :P

but seriously hamas needs to fully recognize israel if it wants to be taken seriously as the leader of the palestinian people and not a fringe terror group.

[Coastie for Truth]

9. This is the real point -

[Colorado Blue]

11. Agreed. That is an important issue. Also important: the

Arab world needs to start helping the Palestinian people and not just the ones in the territories - but also the people in the refugee camps, who now number some 4.5 million people who aren't citizens and have few rights in their host nations.

It's high time ALL the people in this area started working together on humanitarian causes, instead of constantly pointing guns at each other.

The economic gap between Dubai, for example, and Syria, is shameful. And the fact that WWII era refugees are still sitting in refugee camps is appalling. It is also appalling that no compensation has been made to the 900,000 Jewish refugees, created after 1948.

Meanwhile it's asking a great deal of Israel to fund a government which has sworn to annihilate her. Maybe it is HAMAS which needs to change its tune.

[Tom Joad]

21. Again, WHY is Israel collecting taxes from Palestinians? Legalized theft.

It is not logical to support that Israel continue to collect taxes from Palestinians from which Palestinians will derive no benefit.

Therefore, if you want Israel to stop giving money to Palestinians, you should do all you can to support an end taxation of the Palestinian people by the Israeli govt. Which really means ending the occupation.

Or you must support the distribution of the funds to Palestinian Authority, elected by the Palestinian people.

There are other alternatives, but they entail what amounts to form of "legalized" theft. It is holding the people of Palestine hostage, to force them to act politically. Causing such harm (and this will result in even more crushing poverty for Palestine) to whole civilian populations, in order to force political change is a form of terrorism. Sanitized, state-approved, western-style, modern terrorism.

[Andromeda]

12. As long as Hamas continues its hardline approach

on Israel they will never be taken seriously. Talking about Israel's destruction isn't the way to gain trust and goodwill.

The Palestinian people are suffering because of BAD LEADERSHIP and the recent election isn't going to make their lives any easier. With the current (US)administration in power we don't stand a chance for peace in the ME so they should just butt out so they don't make matters any worse.

[occuserpens]

28. Hamas put to "axis of evil"

2006-02-14 Hamas put to "axis of evil"

[Tom Joad]

33. From Gush Shalom. "How Stupid can you get!"

Gush Shalom ad in Ha'aretz today
HOW STUPID!

The pro-Israeli New-York Times disclosed this week an American-Israel plan to starve
the Palestinians, in order to bring about new elections and a Fatah victory.

How stupid can you get?

The Palestinians, like us or any other people, will react with fury to such a
despicable outside pressure. They will not overturn Hamas but give it even greater
power.

Contacts with the elected Palestinian leadership must be opened at once, in order to
achieve their recognition of the State of Israel within the pre-1967 borders and our
recognition of the State of Palestine in all the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with
East Jerusalem as its capital.

That is possible - if only we want it.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. That's so true...

The reason I have been loathe to support any international boycott of Israel is because of my worry that it'd push Israel into a corner where the reaction would be to lash out against the outside pressure with the end result being the Palestinians having to suffer more than they already do. Isolation and exclusion would hand Israel the ability to act the victim and be even less willing to listen to the international community. And it's for exactly the same reason that I oppose the moves of the US and Israel to isolate and exclude Hamas now that it's been elected in a democratic election....

Violet...